 We are back. Okay, so thanks for staying with us. Taxes are a necessary part of any function in society, providing the government with the revenue it needs to fund public services and infrastructure. However, when businesses face multiple layers of taxation, it can have a significant impact on their operations, growth, and overall economic health. The National Tax Policy document states that multiple taxations happen when the same individual is subject to taxation by more than one state or local government council in connection with the same duty. Now, small and medium-sized firms produced more than 50% of Nigeria's GDP and accounts for 80% of employment in recent years. Now, according to the Small and Medium Enterprise Development Agency in Nigeria, 80% of SMEs fail before their fifth anniversary in Nigeria, and among the causes of these premature close-ups are problems with taxation, which might range from heavy tax burdens to various taxes. So today, we're asking, what is the impact of multiple taxation on businesses? Now, please, let's hear what you have to say. Remember, you can join this conversation. Send us an SMS or what have to do with it, 1-803-4663. All right, so I mean, while I said that I was going to come back to taxation with your story, you know, we've said this thing several times. Where we are as a nation, the economy is getting really tighter. I know that for any economy to boom or for any economy to bounce back, the government has to reach some level of concessions where you say, OK, you know what, if there were import duties, if there were all of these things, right, let's reduce those import duties, because I know that in the end, what causes the hike or the whatever in the prices of things, right, is because these duties, you know, imagine you pay, pay, pay, pay, pay. In the end, it is the end user that suffers it. Why did we even decide to talk about the story? Someone brought about a report and said that tertiary schools were being private schools. Private school owners, they were complaining about multiple taxation for their schools. Utsi, who is going to be suffering it? Do you understand? It is us that is paying the school fees. I mean, this year, they reviewed our school fees for our child, right? So there are implications even outside of the businesses, because some businesses cannot handle it. They have to fold up in the end. But you see, for me, I feel like if a government is sensitive enough to the plight of the people, right, there are some things you can look away from. Now look at the likes of Dangote. When Dangote decided to take on that, you remember the entire Ogudu, sorry, is it Ogudu? Bagada Road, all that entire, you know, it was Dangote that reconstructed all that road. Of course, as part of his, whatever, part of his, would I call this compensation from the government? Of course, he got tax breaks. If we are looking at really revamping the economy, the government can truly turn a blind eye towards certain kinds of taxation, or even still say, you know what, if we were charging 50%, you know, let's reduce it maybe to like 5% so that this thing, they can be a balance. I run a small business for years, do you understand, before handing it over to, you know, someone to take on the business. That particular business, they will come to my store, they will tell me that I should come and pay for a radio license because I don't have a radio day. Do you understand? Pay for a radio license. Somebody else will come from this one and tell you to pay this. You know, the only look I even have is because I am inside an estate. The people that are outside of the estate, it is even worse. Like every day you just come, they bring one bill, tomorrow they tell you this is another bill. So different agencies, almost like collecting the same thing from someone. If you check this commercial road transport buses, it's the same complaint. I was listening on radio one day when they were talking about taxation and how like multiple taxations form the stretch and where they are coming to, you know, those guys on the road. So in the end the taxi, the bus driver is asking you please, what do I take home and who is suffering it? It is us because now instead of you paying maybe a thousand there for your trip, you're going to pay maybe like two thousand or three thousand because all that money is going to go back to the coffers and what even bothers me is the fact that these things are not even documented. So there is no way that this money is being monitored. So somebody is just going there and reaching their pocket. If we had a system where I can just go online and say, okay, I'm about to start a small business. What are the taxes I need to pay? I see the line up, I pay and move on. I would be happy and say, okay, I know where the money is going. But this multiple taxation that even happens, some of them go under the radar. Nobody even sees the money. But people are coming to you to collect taxes. So I don't know. You say we didn't have plenty things to talk about. I've laid the foundation. What are your thoughts on it? What would be the end point? The government should change this, the government should change that. I'm not saying that there isn't validity to what you are saying. We have these challenges and it's not a challenge that is unique to taxation. It's a Nigerian problem. It's the inefficiencies of our systems. It is the loopholes and gaps in our systems. The guys you talk about collecting money on the road, are they collecting for the government? They're collecting for the union. Again, first and foremost. Don't the union remit to the government? They do. Well, I don't know. Let me not say that. I know. But what I mean is that if you want to argue it, you can say, oh yes, that entire sector. They were not taxed before. A huge sector of transportation is huge. So we have plenty problems. What it is is that people have found ingenious and creative ways to collect the money and that is what is causing the problem. So that's why I said that it comes back down to an inefficiency problem. From a general standpoint, we don't collect enough taxes. Calm down. No, I agree with you on that. Because today our budget is largely funded by the process from oil. And the taxes that even matter, in terms of real, are the taxes from the big organizations. Those are the taxes that maybe even move the needle a little bit. But if we take, I'm not even going to talk about a lot of taxes. If we take a certain income tax payee, for example, which goes to the state, right? If I was to compare the percentages, let me not even talk about the amounts because I think that aggregated. We start collecting so personal income tax payee tax is paid either if you're employed or if you're self-employed, you do self-decloration. If you're doing that, let me use straightforward comparisons. If you were doing that in the UK, after your first, I think the threshold is about £12,750 a year. So if you're earning that as gross, you wouldn't get taxed, right? Once you cross over that threshold. Any extra? Any extra, yeah. And I believe 25%. It goes all the way up to 40% or I think 45%. Now, if I come to Nigeria, we start taxing at a much smaller threshold. But then of course, what's our minimum wage? Anything below £50,000 is not taxed. No, it's £300,000 a year. It's £300,000 a year. Okay, I know. I'm talking about monthly though. No, I know it's £300,000. And then you go over that and then it's 7%. And then the max is 24%. So if you think about 24%, which if we're using direct comparison with the UK, that's even within the first threshold, right? But if you take that amount and then you look at the people who work in the formal sector, so they're taxable, compared to the 200 plus million people that you have, we are barely scratching the centre. So when you take between the threshold of 20% to 40% in the UK, right? Like it or love it, that money is funding the NHS. People will argue the service in the NHS has deteriorated over the years, but that's not what we're talking about. But it is able to fund an entire health sector. It's able to fund the schools, right? So when we talk about, hold on now, when we talk about the different taxes, I'm not even going to come to businesses, but let me just stick with the humans. When we talk about the different taxes, again, there are different taxes, right? You will pay that. You will pay personal income tax. You will pay your local council tax, right? You will pay for TV licence. You will pay TV licence. I'm not counting the taxes you pay now in the UK, right? You will pay your council tax. You will pay TV licence. You pay a TV licence, right? So there are multiple taxes paid in the same locality of this is me as an individual living here, because these monies are required to be able to run the country. Now, because we had this black gold that was paying for everything, over time we have not built efficient systems to collect tax. I mean, we have the inland revenue services, both local and state, both state and federal. Do they collect tax in efficient ways? No. Why? Today there's two poor-out-plenty staff on the streets. You see them when they are doing their drive in their t-shirts, going from shop to shop and all. The most inefficient way to collect tax. It's the same thing with the buses. The buses registered, no? Every commercial vehicle, if you see their licence plate, is red, no? So we know they are commercial. But do we? Why are we not collecting? Do we collect taxes? So that's why I'm trying to say that. I was going to say to you that even this informal sector that you're talking about, right, they are more taxed than you because, sure, they didn't have an installing boiler by the junction here. Somebody comes to work every day. So that's why I'm saying that what you are now calling multiple taxation is not a creativity in the system of how I collect taxes. Because now, where the populace first of all, we don't want to pay taxes. Let's be clear. Now, the reason why we don't want to pay taxes, I'll use myself as an example. I don't believe anybody wants to part with 40% of their wages today so that my politician leader can ride in the bus. I'm trying to say that I'm trying to look at the holistic problem. That one, we say people are taxed in multiple ways. Yes, it's because everybody is. That's the radio licence that you are being taxed on, right? It's not an invalid thing. But the point is, does it have a national radio station that it is funding? Isn't here running that it is funding? That's what that tax should be for. If you are collecting a radio licence tax, it's to fund the government-owned media houses. Do we have them running today? Is that where that money is going? So that's why I'm saying that I just want to position the conversation in the right way. That the multiple taxation for me is not the problem. Multiple taxes occur everywhere. It is the inefficiencies in the system. It is the lack of transparency in where the money is going. Today, how would you pay to clear a card? All that money that Customs is collecting, what is it doing? Have they built a new port? Okay. The road that was built? Was it built by the Custom Service? These are the questions. I had to frame the question so that people's focus is in the right place. If I just see multiple taxes, it just seems like, ah. Yeah, they want to collect money. The taxes themselves. I like where you are going. Let's take a very short round to hear that mistletoe. Thanks for staying with us. We're discussing the impact of multiple taxation on businesses. Now, please, let's hear what you have to say. Remember, you can join the conversation. Send us an SMS or WhatsApp to 081-8038463. That means, before I let you call me, I just want to touch small on what Uti said. Now, you said what you have said. Yes, you are channeling us in the right direction of the conversation. No doubt. But I will tell you that the reason a lot of people don't want to pay taxes is because if I have provided my water, I provided my electricity, I provided every single thing. It would be difficult for me to say, okay, what exactly am I giving you the money for? That transparency is what is lacking. I remember that when Fashola wanted to drive personal income tax, he tied it to housing, right? I am a beneficiary of that housing. I got a property. I didn't know nobody because I was just a taxpayer. Because part of the criteria for you to be able to get those houses, was that you needed to be a taxpayer. Do you understand? So you had the tax certificate. Whenever you want to do something in government, where is your tax clearance? Even if you are involved in an accident tomorrow or last month, arrest you. Before you go and pay that fine, you will show your tax clearance. But let me come to you, Dami. Well, I don't think I have anything different from what you both have said. I mean, I agree with you quite frankly. Why people don't like to pay tax? Because I don't think I want to give anybody my money when they are just going to be buying the latest cars, wearing the latest outfits and stuff like that. But then again, coming back to the taxation for private schools, right? Like I read an article online, I don't think that we can actually deal with private schools. Because first of all, how many government-owned schools do we have? That's one. Then number two, even the government-owned schools that we have, how functional are they? I don't think no offences, but I don't think anyone wants to deliberately send their words to a government, especially when it's a primary and secondary. I mean, for the universities, the majority actually go to federal universities or state-owned universities. But for the primary and secondary education, how functional is the government-owned schools? So now, if the taxes for private schools are now really high, is it not going to be so discouraging for people to even own private schools? And how can they even... I don't know, maybe if the tax that is being collected from the private schools are used to enrich the public educational sector. I think it's to make this conversation that we have now make a whole lot of sense. But the fact that... Wait, let me send you. Wait, let me send you. Because what's it in Kenya I was reading in Kenya. Do you know that they are begging people, private schools are shutting down. Is the complete opposite that is happening? Because nobody is going to private schools because they have government schools as well. Exactly. Do you understand? But in Nigeria. If you have money to fund your private school, are you a public school? No, I wouldn't say that. I don't think I agree with that. You see, we are coming to fight you with this taxation. You see, this thing you are saying about, they don't need tax money to fix our schools. So they don't. No. What money? So let me explain something to you. It is prioritizing things. It's just like our healthcare sector. You don't need to say, because it is the tax that I am paying that will fix our healthcare. Ah, Uti. No, we don't want to say that. We don't want to say that. Uti, you know what I'm saying? No, the reason why you are saying that is because we have been running on oil money for as long as you have been alive. The fact is in other same countries where they don't have oil, before we had oil, we were exporting cocoa granades. You packed it all in for oil. So now you are a one-trick pony. Your favorite food is oil. All you want to eat is oil. The fact is, the people that don't have that particular thing, it is your taxes that funds all these things. So the fact is, over time, like I said, the problem for me is not the taxes. Over time, the inefficiencies, the corruption, the money for people to write... Thank you. Not going into the right areas. Uti, have you tried to open a physical business store in this country? It can be very... You know what I'm saying? You know what I'm saying? You already know as a government that these people are the ones that are going to help in your economy. Do you know that 80% of employment right now are by small businesses, small business owners? So that's not going to be the government that's not going to employ the amount of people that are actually supposed to employ. As I am like this, every member of my staff is paying taxes. There's a personal income tax that is deducted from their income already. We are paying what's equal. We are having to pay our own electricity, pay this, pay that, pay whatever. So whatever it is that you are doing as a government, you must first of all cut off this thing. The system should be transparent. Let me tell you something. I am happy to pay a tax. But when I feel like this is daylight robbery, if somebody is just coming to collect money that I know will not get into the government coffers, then they solve the problem. That's why I said that be clear what your problem is. I was clear. The taxes, you just said it. I knew that my taxes were going where they should go. I would happily pay them. The taxes are not the problem. Now first and foremost, let's take the 200 and something million people that we have in this country. Let us now ask ourselves what percentage of those people are paying tax? Don't use yourself as a benchmark. Because in truth, if you count the 200, or many hundreds of thousands of small businesses that we have in this country, not one of them are paying tax for starters. Let's not use Lagos. Let's not use Potacot or Abuja. A great 20% of this country are not paying the taxes in the way that they should be. They can tax you multiply. They can work up into your business in Lagos and do that. How many countries, how many places, even if you take state by state, outside of the state capital, what do you mean? So my point is, you have to think about what it takes to collectively run a nation. I know taxes are the drivers of any nation. So it is the monies that have... There is a home. You are using something else to fill that home right now that your taxes are supposed to fill. So again, I say it, the different taxes we are paying, they are all valid taxes. The problem is where the money is going. The problem is that you are looking for tax breaks for small businesses because they are contributing to the economy. Those are separate conversations. Outside of, are the taxes that are being collected right now correct taxes. Like I said, I can go out and fight and say, yes, okay, there's a law for example. It's like stamp duty. Why? What am I stamping? Why? What it is an apple. Why am I stamping? So that's what I'm saying, that it is an act that says the money must be collected. What was the last time you saw it stamping? The question was where was the ask. My point is and that's what I'm saying that the conversation needs to go to where the problems are. The tax that I am paying, the act behind it or the regulation behind it is still valid. Should we still be collecting this money? No. actually should we look at it that's a different concept. So how do we solve this problem? The inefficiencies in okay I should do payee, I should do some states we solve you know up and running and all of that these are the things that I want to address not the fact that I'm paying too many taxes. That's where I'm seeing that. Because in pain in multiple taxation it happens everywhere right but it is the it is the channeling we are in the collection. Do you understand because you see the reason why I think a lot of people are angry when it comes to multiple taxation especially with businesses is because it is highly um what's it called on official most of the collections they are not they are not they are not on any record. Do you know that when they come into my business space for instance and I demand that I need the bank teller to go and pay it they get upset. Do you understand because that money there was a particular man who come harass everybody you know because that money once you tell him give me the bank teller I will send my staff to the bank to go and pay they are already upset to the point that some of these guys have even gone to open back accounts. So now these are the problems that you should have and let me tell you why it's even more important now when the money that you get to the government doesn't get to the government right because of all these things that you have mentioned the day the leadership of that government sits around the table and says we need money to run the state money is not coming in if you anywhere you watch if you if you watch olden days movies when the kings and queens were running these taxes well there's no money they said go out go to the villages collect our taxes they increase taxes so when those people sit around the table and say ah we need one billion to run the country but it's only 100 million that came into the we need ideas how do we come up with more money how do they start creating interesting taxes let me take lego state case in point I already pay that value of the tax on goods and services but in lego if you go and sit down somewhere to eat what are you going to pay in addition so you pay for the food you're going to pay the 7.5 percent outside is expensive and then you're going to pay the consumption tax now if in efficiency we're collecting our monies lego state was getting all the money would you need to create a new consumption tax that's where those multiple problems start to come from and is still driven by the fact that so it will still go back to the government you know what I'm saying that because let me tell you something yes we might say that largely the collection is so unofficial that a lot of those income don't get into government comfort but what do you want with the entire government comfort that's the problem actually so there's those inefficiencies as well yeah right I remember I think it was some point when they were announcing ministers and I was counting that that's 48 ministers which is 96 vehicles no sorry it wasn't 94 vehicles so that's the hundred and what was it now I think it was a hundred and something my math is all right the people that left those offices where the cars they were using say where you've left the office leave the car now you don't normally leave the car but that's my point right so you'll tell you that there's just inside that car I cannot drive it I mean I'm saying above you know you took what I dispense and cleared up the entire house like emptied the house do you understand what I'm saying like doesn't make sense and these things we look at it and we laugh over it with glossary but it is actually very very sad because now I mean it's just like Obama leaving White House and emptying the White House come on it doesn't make any sense do you understand if we continue like that the people that will suffer in the end it is you and I it is because now its schools are complaining that they're giving them multiple taxations they would have to increase the school fees to be able to pay those taxes if the businesses are complaining that they're giving them multiple taxations uh gelato that went to buy for me today ice cream I said why why did you pay you know Dr. Brownie I have to finish every last like literally the spoon at the plate to be so I get you very good see I understand you and you know honestly that's the higher place to take the conversation but what I'm saying is that what I'm asking is it possible that we we we temper these multiple taxations a bit and channel it well so you know what I'm saying this as a small business I'm already paying my staff I mean so we're already paying payee making sure that every member of staff is being paid I mean it's paying the payee staff taxes then you tell me to pay what's equal the CAC remember CAC did something recently that they were shutting down all the register so registration and all of that if you if you are not uh if you don't update or something yeah yeah yeah and that tax is needed for you to go and if you have not paid you have to go and update your tax record so a lot of businesses that was a creative way you know to trap the money so let me know have anybody come in to knock on my door CAC is already a platform do you understand if you want to tax me maybe an annual income tax it's where we can also follow the money the reason the government will give you the excuse that they don't know how to they cannot channel it to say this is what the project the money is going to is because they too they deliberately the system not to work they like the idea that the the the tax sector is so informal so that is the only way to they would benefit from the corruption so let us solve the problem create CAC whether CAC collects taxes annually where do you have the VAT system i am paying VAT and then i'm you understand so create it but then you probably have more businesses not registered actually so how did they trap those kind of money again so you can't open a bank account and you can't do anything transactional a lot of that if you don't have a registered business not necessarily i can use my personal account do you have any personal accounts for businesses yeah so again you know i lost my case we're pretty much out of time we're out of time we're out of time i lost my case i don't talk again oh my goodness but Misha is paying me let me just tell you it is actually it is oh come on now give me radio this thing they'll give you this one this one is this one this one is that one is too much it's too much because the businesses are the ones that are helping the economy so try as much as possible to make it a bit easy for them if you want to tax us just tax us one one amount for the we know that okay this is what we are paying for the end we close it out this way well that's not okay again thank you thank you before we go and show you follow us across all our social media handles and interact with us further drop your comment and more importantly follow all our engagement and social media like share and invite your families and friends to watch and follow the conversation if you missed our quote for today here it is again our Babatunde fashion last day before we increase taxes we must optimize the capacity to get that which is in it in the place so only for what is in the place you'll see it too we see you on Monday at 8 p.m. bye