 Rhae—rhyw fawr, penwaith. Erbyn amdodd y Lleodraeth Lleodraeth am gyflawni, ond gallwn amfawr yn fawr i chi'n cwrs Llywodraeth. Maewer rydych chi hefyd yn gallu gael'r當feydd mewn ukwlau arbennig. A fawr i chi i gael y 19r ffaith o ddylch, yma gwrs Llywodraeth. I'm we're delighted you can join us today and part of this in conversation event with Dame Evelyn Glennie OBE. It's brought to you in partnership this year with the Edinburgh International Festival and later I will be inviting you to participate in this in conversation with questions or comments that you wish to make. So let me get on with introducing our guest. Dame Evelyn Glennie OBE is the first person in history to create and sustain a full time career as a solo percussionist performing worldwide with the greatest orchestras and artists. She grew up on a farm in the north east of Scotland and was influenced by Scottish traditional music. I've also learned she has connections to Orkney, which I suspect most people do when they dig deep enough. Dame Evelyn's hearing declined at the age of eight, but she became a proficient pianist and later was introduced to percussion at the age of 12. After a few hurdles, when Evelyn made history by challenging and changing the application system to all UK music colleges, and I'm sure we're going to return to that later in the discussion, she gained a place at the Royal Academy of Music in London at the age of 16, where she studied percussion and piano. She quickly realised there was a life for percussion outside the orchestra and became determined to define a new genre of solo percussion. Dame Evelyn paved the way for orchestras globally to feature percussion concerti when she played the first percussion concerto in the history of the proms at the Royal Albert Hall in 1992. Having recorded over 40 solo recordings and composed 200 pieces of music for various films, TV shows and theatre productions, she has won over 100 international awards and is a double Grammy winner and a BAFTA nominee in 2012. She collaborated with director Danny Boyle in performing as part of the Olympic Games opening ceremony, leading a thousand drummers as part of the performance and featuring the new instrument, the Glenny Concert Alluphone, one of three and a half thousand percussion instruments that form part of the Evelyn Glenny collection. Dame Evelyn was awarded an OBE in 1993 and this year was announced as the winner of the prestigious Leonie Sunning Music Prize for 2023 with previous recipients, including Igor Sravinsky and Yehudi Menuin. This is the first time the award has been presented to a percussionist. Dame Evelyn is present of the Help Musicians, a charity that has supported UK musicians for over a century now, as well as being patron and a supporter of many charities, including Music and Hospital in Arts, Drake Music Scotland and Edinburgh Youth Orchestra, to name but a few. Some of these charities, I'm delighted to say, are represented here in Parliament today. Her unstinting support for young people continued in 2021 when she became Chancellor of Robert Gordon University in Aberdeen. She's also founded the Evelyn Glenny Foundation, which continues her mission to teach the world to listen. As I said, there'll be an opportunity for you to put your own questions, make your own comments later on, but maybe start, Dame Evelyn, by returning to that theme of the application process to the Royal Academy. You obviously changed the way in which that application process worked, that nobody could be rejected without first being given an opportunity to be heard. I just wonder what impact both that challenge but the fact that you overcame that challenge had on the 16-year-old Evelyn Glenny, and I suppose that the legacy of that for you personally going forward has been. First of all, thank you very much indeed for the opportunity for me to be here and to have this discussion, and I'm delighted to receive any thoughts and feedback along the way. I think the thing about being young is that a lot of things actually can be very simplified in your mind, so really my aim was, at that point, to be the best possible percussionist I could be. What I didn't know growing up in the north-east of Scotland was what was my level in relation to the rest of the country, as far as being a percussion player, and so all I could give was the best I possibly could. What was very clear in my mind, and this is all about listening to yourself, is what do I want to do? What do I want to do? I wanted to be a solo percussionist, so the aim was really, really simple. When I auditioned, I felt I gave the best I possibly could. However, I was expecting the result to be, well, Evelyn, you need to reach a higher level, and if that was the case, I would know exactly what I would have to do in order to try to be a bit better the next time around. However, when you do have the feedback where, well, yes, you are reaching the level, but we can't take you in because of your hearing, then I have an issue, because where does this stop? So if someone plays good enough to get in, and they have no arms and legs, or they're blind, or whatever the case may be, who's judging this, actually, and it's a very dangerous landscape to be? We're dealing with a profession that is all about connection, building bridges. This whole profession, it belongs to all of us, it belongs to all of us whilst we're in our mother's womb, it belongs to all of us when we're taking our last breath, and every part in between of our lives. So that is what I realised in learning music at school because we were just busy playing in the community and primary schools and at this community event, at that community event, it made no difference who our audience was. We were giving 100% and we cared about that occasion. So this was a really important landscape for me to keep very strong in my mind. Why are you a musician? What are you? What does a musician actually do? In those years when I was thinking of trying to be the best possible percussionist I could be, I realised this is a never-ending journey. Even this morning at the hotel, I was practising a certain stroke with my drumsticks on the bed. Just going back to very, very basics, practising this because I've just got this desire to try to improve. However, then I realised, well, what am I? I'm a musician so my language is dealing with sound. Then I realised, well, everybody has an opinion towards something so some people might like that piece of music, some people may not like that piece of music and that's absolutely fine. So you can't really control that but people do recognise if you give the most honest performance and I think this was so important when I was auditioning was for the panel to really listen to the individual. So they could not be in a position where they could think, well, an orchestra won't hire a hearing impaired musician. They don't have a right to say that so I will take care of that but as it happens I wanted to be a solo percussionist so it was almost like a double whammy for them. So I felt it was important to say something. Am I of the standard to get in? Yes or no? The answer was yes so that came back from them. So therefore I must get in. It's as simple as that, I must get in. You have to allow somebody to have that place if they've reached the standard to get in. So it was just like simplifying the whole situation and it took one man on the panel who recognised that they were on dodgy ground here and so they asked me back for a second edition that had nothing to do with percussion playing at all so it was completely unprepared and it was sitting at the piano and it was looking at sight reading, looking at a score deciding who might have written that piece of music, doing choral reading, full score reading, transposition, you name it, every aspect of being a musician and I was used to that already and so at the end of that they said you can start in September and they realised that they have to listen to the individual, not what they see you know but what is it with that individual and it's more than also just the playing you know, how might that individual fit in, what is it that they you know, they've got to just really zone in on that individual and use all the senses possible to connect with that individual. So it's a very interesting circumstance and for me as a performer you know, I hone in to my audience, it isn't just transferring what I've practised in the privacy of my own four walls and then plonking that on stage at the usher hall or the hub or wherever it might be and hoping the audience might enjoy this. It's really grasping like who is here right now, you know, what is the message we want to put forward right now and always thinking about the present and being adaptable enough to recognise what the situation is right now, that I think is really important. So that I think is what happened at the audition was for that panel to zoom in but also zoom out and from that they really realised that they have to just see people as people you know and what is that passion in that person. Hearing you explain that now, it all makes perfect sense. I think it's recognising though that that was your thought process at the age of 16 which for many people of that age can be quite a difficult challenging time. They're dealing with lots of things going on in their life but you seem to have a real confidence, a kind of inner strength, a self confidence. I don't know whether did that come from the fact that you had been brought up playing performing music. We were discussing this before we came in about the skills that does give young people that ability to perform in public. You've also talked about an inclusive environment in the north-east of Scotland at the time being a more inclusive community. Did that give a confidence and a self confidence to you as a young person, do you think? Yes, I think it was a bit of everything to be honest. I think the whole ethos of the school I went to which was Ellen Academy just north of Aberdeen was that the school believed that every child has a story to tell and every child does have a story to tell actually. So within that school you've got a great engineer, a great politician, a great musician, sports person, debater, baker, plumber, electrician, whatever it might be and it's up to the school to plant seeds but to also fish out what it is in that individual and to then be able to support that in the conversations that are had and how interested you are in that individual. So you don't suddenly have to become an expert in baking or an expert in engineering or something. It's just simply being interested enough to listen to that person and I'll never forget that at school I wasn't particularly hot on maths for example but my teacher happened to be a very good pianist and he could see how I became a different specimen almost in the music department and so therefore he just changed his vocabulary in the maths class and that made all the difference. It was just a simple thing like that. It may not have been so simple for him but he did it and it's just this kind of paying attention and that's what listening is. It's just paying attention to the circumstance and I think that's why social media is quite difficult to handle because you say something but then you know you're not actually listening to what you're saying you've just written it and then that's that it's there so that's a whole different kind of meaning I think to listening. So yes I just felt that the school wasn't about finding the best musicians but what is it about playing music that gives that person satisfaction? What difference does it make in their lives? So I really feel that music in a way participating in music whether it's a listener, whether it's actually playing an instrument, whether it's discovering sound for the first time and thinking about foley and soundscapes and all sorts of things you know that belongs to us all it really does and so that's an extension of our imagination but also it's an extension of our whole physical body you know and often we draw upon music at the time of crisis you know and suddenly we have to provide music here provide music there in order to save a situation but actually if music is part of our lives right from the beginning and if we can just find this route where we really do recognise how important it is to our well-being to our to all the physical aspects our balance our coordination everything you know are giving to of ourselves it's really quite quite amazing the offshoots of music and also when you think of music you know music consists of practically every subject that a child studies at school so you're thinking about history you're thinking about geography you're thinking about maths you're thinking about language you're thinking about technology you're thinking about acoustics and architecture you know you're thinking about all sorts of things when you actually dissect music and one of the projects that we have been developing over the past few years is a project called sounds of science and that is rolled out at the throughout the shireland academies in in bermanham and this is just looking back at you know the history of man developed sounds so you know what you start let's you can start anywhere but you start maybe in this case with stone tool making so you clunk stones together and you scrape stones and then a little spark happens and oh that then ignites fire so what happened then with fire so you can create the foley sound the feel of fire by just scrunching plastic bags or something and then what did fire mean to the development of man well we could suddenly cook meat on there or we could keep warm and all sorts of things and and it goes on and on so the sound of helium the sound of dolly the sheep the sound of the bicycle bell the sound of i don't know penicillin the sound of gravity the sound of the first computer the the sound of silent movies whatever so really looking at history and thinking well what else was happening when this event occurred you know often when we teach music we may teach you know about Beethoven or Handel or Haydn or Shostakovich or something and that's all we think about we don't think well what was going on in china what was going on in latin america so this project is really zooming out and thinking well historically what was happening there what other inventions were happening you know all sorts of things like that so a five-year-old can deal with this project along with an 18-year-old so they're talking about the same project through sounds of science but dealing with all different aspects of their education that's what i enjoy really building the bridges there and which just underscores the extent to which music or sound can be woven through to everything it's something you you touch on in your ted talk in your youtube videos for those that haven't watched them i thoroughly thoroughly recommend them but you talk about music as being almost a daily medicine and obviously a requirement for everybody in some shape or form do you think it's something that we are doing well enough and there's an awful lot of onus that's always placed on schools and there's a limit to what schools can do but with the contraction often of extracurricular activities for for one reason another the capacity to pick that up out with school is limited are the things that we could be doing better or that we or that you see we're doing well and that we might look to kind of roll out more more widely across the country absolutely i mean we as a as a country as a whole you know we've been we've had a very good record i would say of amateur music making of community music making of music in our schools our professional music making and so on and it's been very very strong absolutely there have been challenges right across the board no question about that but you know things can't remain the same forever more so you know music is like a river it it's always flowing and we always have to ask the question as the festival is asking now where do we go from here you know so we can't just sit sit back and think oh that's working fine that's great so i think that we have always got to communicate with our young people we have always got to communicate with those who are providing the services and make sure that communication is happening at all times in whichever ways possible so keeping those avenues open is is so incredibly important i think that we can definitely look at our demographics and think about all the different situations that people require support so we might think about music when you know mums are pregnant for example so how important is that going to be not just for the baby but for the the parents you know what about keeping that extension going once the baby is born what about music and preschools a lot of the questions we get asked is you know what should primary schools buy as regards to percussion in the budget with the budget that they might have you know now very often you'll find that schools have rattles and tambourines and shakers and all of this sort of thing they're all high frequency instruments they're all things that often don't have a long sustain so the recommendation is think of food and think of sound like like a diet you know so how much low frequencies do you have how much mid frequencies do you have how much high frequencies do you have so you're nurturing that sort of um the senses for a young person through through sound and through that sound diet um and so thinking about short and long sounds so you know they're already in kind of en engrossed with very high cosmetically enhanced sounds through phones and computers and other devices in the home so the last thing they need are more sounds up in this register of the body so really thinking about that right what sort of low sounds can we bring into their soundscape and so on so thinking about it like that thinking about sounds in the in the whole medical profession you know we we think about the colour of the walls we think about the the seats we sit on but do we actually think about the soundscapes so really communicating with our our architects for example so a lot of the schools for the deaf for example that are being built now that the new schools you know have curved corridors so where you know you're not suddenly spooked by someone coming round a corner or the the dining areas are you know designed at ways where you know you're not getting the scraping and the cutlery and all sorts of things which is very very painful often for deaf people and and again it's just understanding people's circumstances and how we can really improve all of our our situations as far as we can but I think the thing for me as a youngster was having those opportunities to perform I think that was so important going into primary schools to perform going into homes for the elderly to perform going into any kind of situation you know the Ellen show or something and playing outdoors in the square it didn't matter it was a chance to perform because it isn't just the performance it's the organisation you know so it's making sure you've got everything ready you're there you're mentally you know ready to go you've got your colleagues to think about it's more than just striking that and and so that sense of responsibility and and willingness and and sharing this responsibility and having a chance to talk about it afterwards and and that's all part of the performance as well I think any opportunity we can to perform and really using our spaces you know as far as possible and this is something that certainly was ignited post pandemic you know it's absolutely you know the world is our stage that is that's the that we perform you know as long as we're alive we perform I'm going to open this up to to questions in a second but just one further question for me at this stage you talk about the importance of of listening and and perhaps critical of the fact that we don't properly listen I'm conscious we're sitting in this parliamentary chamber as one of the deputy presiding officers but also as one of the participating MSPs in debate I think I can testify to the fact that very often or too often we don't listen even when we're engaged in the debate but I wonder if you could maybe talk a little bit more about what you consider to be important in terms of properly listening and whether it's to sound or whether as you were saying before in a social media context actually listening to what it is that others are saying well I think first of all for me anyway listening starts from within so you know it's important to listen to your inner chatter and to to give yourself that space and time to listen to yourself and that often sounds quite selfish but it's a really necessary activity it really really is just to have that moment of listening to yourself now it might be that you know you don't have an agenda or anything like that it's just quite simply you know being with yourself and and I find that's really necessary for me because you know you're pulled in all different directions and you have all sorts of things coming your way but ultimately it's it's going back to that 16 year old what is it that this individual is is listening to and what is it that makes this individual you know really say something and we are we can all say something that's the thing so so you know please don't think this is a kind of ego trip or anything like that for for us this is necessary for us all to do and and I think that once in a way you've silenced yourself to allow this listening to happen you can then build that bridge and energy to listen to someone else or to a circumstance and you know when I when I'm in the my my practice room you know I might be striking something and and thinking right how do I want to link that to that and I may spend ages thinking how do I want to link that to that and there could be a hundred different ways of linking that to that now you might think well who on earth cares you know at the end of the day who cares but actually it is the difference between feeling something or not feeling something a feeling that that care has been taken or not taken so just you know what is it that that you you want to say and people will feel that and listening really is feeling you know it isn't about a sound it isn't about whether you can hear something or not hear something it is literally about deciding that you want to be in the presence of that situation and receive you know and then you'll be able to give receive give receive give so you know if I only spent time with my left hand then this will give up you know so everything has to to to work together and that's what listening is as well so imagine if we were having this when I keep striking this imagine I was having a conversation with you right now and I had my mobile phone here just if I had my mobile phone how would that change the conversation if I had my mobile phone and I just you wouldn't be the first it's it's it but it makes the difference it just makes a difference you know and and this is the thing is is you know can you imagine if I gave a performance and my mobile phone was on the music stand you know and as the orchestra was playing and and I had maybe 10 bars or something and I just thought oh just check you know how on earth would the audience feel but yet we feel we can do that with a conversation you know and I would just ask if for one day we could pop our mobile phones away whenever we have a conversation and just see just observe it may or may not make any difference to you but just observe if it does and what that difference might be and is it something that we can cultivate so when I practice I'm 100% there if I'm looking up my mobile phone that is the activity I'm doing not also whilst I'm practicing so it's just teeny little things like that that I think would would help make a difference I wonder what your 16 year old self would have said to the putting away of the mobiles for the entire day like that it's time to receive and give open up questions to the audience and if you could raise your hand that will allow broadcasting to turn on your microphone you don't need to do anything but the microphone should come on there'll be a little red light near the tip of it and if I could ask that questions be reasonably succinct then hopefully we can get in everybody that wants to ask a question or make a comment so who's going to get us on the way gentlemen there in the blue shirt four rows back thank you my name's David Elliott I'm chairman of Edinburgh youth orchestra I agree Evelyn was so much you say about music making in this in this country professional music making I've left a youth orchestra this morning of 92 who are working hard to to practice to prepare for concerts given up a week of their their holidays but I and I am optimistic about youth music but I also have this slight doubt that we are persuading the the people who make the decisions of the value of music in the curriculum I wonder curriculum and I wonder if you think there are things that we could be doing more as as musicians to persuade the the the politicians and the power of the people who make the decisions of the value of music for all our young people so what could we be doing to persuade politicians to be doing more to support music in this country well I don't think we necessarily have to just land it all on the politicians or I'm not just saying that because you're here actually but but actually this is this belongs to us all it's all of our responsibility and I think that it doesn't also or it shouldn't also land on the plates of the musicians because the musicians are already passionate musicians are already doing a lot to be honest and there's only so much we can do and I think that it would be great to get other disciplines involved to talk about the power of music the power of sound the the and and how important it is so looking at it from a medical point of view looking at it from a sports point of view you know what is it let's say in the world of sport that makes music important to what they do and the level that they do it etc etc and and looking at many many different kinds of disciplines I think it would be great if we could have conversations together so that we we really learn from each other because of course we are dealing with music in so many different situations and and it's very difficult when you see the Edinburgh Youth Orchestra with such talented players they are dedicated players many will go on to be professional musicians so you know they already know what they're going to be doing or want to do and and so on so they're giving the audience who's already passionate about music and it could be their families and so on wanting to support them so you know you've you've got that enthusiastic environment already but how can we extend that and I really do feel if we can get the different disciplines involved then that might really help us so you know I've seen this obviously in in in the deaf community where you know we went from when I was growing up where there's no way you could put deafness and music together because people assumed that deafness was about silence music is about sound so there's no way they can meet in the middle well of course all of this has changed you know it really has and how important music is to deaf people and technology is also played apart in that so here you know we're talking about technology you know we're talking about people's perceptions of disability and there's all sorts of things all sorts of disciplines and people and organizations and communities that can come together and have this kind of conversation of what why is music so important in our lives you know and and not just have it the responsibility of the politicians or or musicians and so on um I feel quite strongly about that really. Thank you very much. Right. Thank you. I'd like to just develop a point that David was mentioning a moment or two ago. My name is Alasdor Orr and I'm a brass instrumental teacher in Stirling. A wee quick good word for politicians of a me. Thanks after a 10-year campaign roughly in this place in 2021 the Scottish Parliament removed fees for instrumental tuition being charged by local authorities up and down the country from Shetland to Gretna. That was a major step after 10 years of hard slog getting to get politicians to realise that this was a barrier to the sort of participation that you were talking about at the beginning Evelyn. But one of the main hangovers from that is and what David I think is getting at is that in 2007 there were 1264 instrumental and vocal teachers working in Scotland schools. Today there are 615 so we've removed a big barrier in terms of cost but we've got a lot of work to do which won't be done overnight to try and up the the teachers that are available to teach in schools. And second quick point where do we go from here? Well where we go from here is what we saw in the Usher Hall last night with the Budapest Festival Orchestra and what they showed the future of perhaps orchestral concerts could be. It was amazing. I see Nicola Bedy and Eddie sitting behind me here. I say a massive thank you to her and the Edinburgh Festival for organising it and if you've not got a ticket for the Budapest Festival Orchestra for the next couple of nights beg, borrow or steal one because you need to hear them. Thank you. Excellent thank you very much indeed plugs are are are also permissible. Is there something that we can perhaps do in terms of that point around the teaching profession that is able to deliver the instrumental tuition both in schools and probably out with schools as well? Is there more that we can be doing there? Yeah I mean we've definitely seen a decline as you say in the instrumental teaching and we've perhaps got to balance this out where obviously we're seeing a huge increase in people dealing with music through technology. So a lot of our are actually incredibly creative composers and writers for media music and computer games and film music and and so on are often people who don't actually play a musical instrument but they're incredibly versatile and creative with technology and are creating amazing music scores actually and often then and I'm seeing this myself where those types of people are then coming to musicians who play instruments to to work together not in all cases so I think we're seeing this real rise in people who are navigating through technology and doing incredible things so I think this is just part of the progression that we're experiencing so although we're seeing a bit of a doomy gloomy picture in one sense but there's also this creative tweak that is happening even if it's not being transferred to the concert hall because it's not that type of thing that that can be easily planted on a on a stage but I also think that during the pandemic there was a huge amount of online resources that were being creative and that have continued thankfully post pandemic that allowed young people to access some of those things I just thought were absolutely incredible and thankfully they're being supported now to keep going because they they can see the the value of this so that kids have things to to access post school access with their families and so on and they're getting professional people to contribute to these things as well and that's all good so again that's with the help of technology that's allowing this to happen we can connect with all sorts of people on a global basis as regards to these online facilities and again that was heightened during the pandemic so I found myself doing things in primary schools in the middle of nowhere in America for example online and that was fantastic you know because there's no way I probably would have gone there in person um you know if if we even if we didn't have the pandemic you know I just probably wouldn't have gone there um but it was possible to to access these places and and that was really really great so I think you know we've we've always got to balance these things there's always a yng ngen iawn to everything um but I think how we use our spaces where it's appropriate for one person two people three people four people to perform that that's that's a good thing you know it doesn't always have to be at the the usher hall for example um but I think you know where there's a way there's a will I really feel that and and I think that it's very important that professional musicians like myself um you know talk about the importance of playing an instrument that isn't just all about performing that instrument so what is the process of learning a musical instrument and what does that do you know in our particular journey so it doesn't always have to end up on a platform that's really really important so you know for example one of my brothers learned trombone at school he started when he's 12 and he left school at 16 17 whatever and he stopped playing then but those few years were just incredibly valuable to him as a person and he's never picked the trombone up again but that doesn't matter it's what did it mean and then what was the impact of that with him moving forward and and he still talks about it so there you go you know um and I think that's really important and he talks about it where you know he will go to a concert or he will you know sort of put money if somebody's busking somewhere or whatever it is so it's just nurturing that right from the get go and and thinking you know everybody has their own take on on on being involved with music that point about digital creativity that made me think that it may not be long before having your mobile phone on your music stand is entirely legitimate and and this is it you know and and that's the thing is that you know although I don't like to see a mobile phone you know on a music stand but there could be an aspect of that that actually does lead into the creative side um in what we do musically so I have to be open enough to think uh you know how that how that could be um but at the moment if it's a case of you know just scrolling through instagram or something um that doesn't that doesn't sit well with me another question in the front row here oh um brandy's question good to see you for real thank you for helping me through COVID I see you're all right uh music portion forget how to be as always always won't be to do music like that never got time to do music through any sort of school or COVID perfect but yeah partly what you said disabled people yes it would be crazy like everywhere else in society people with language abilities as well everybody should participate the same people are out of here and there disabled learn the music a brilliant thing to help people through their life and it can comfort that person and we should all learn dynamic, play as L, A, S, L, whatever through any time we could all be equal like music same time it's all our work not only for hearing not being a banks of shawty it's for death as well and disabled we're all together and uh absolutely yes exactly thank you for that for that um for your thoughts there I think Ac ydw i'n golygu'n gŵr, i ddau sy'n gwybod hynny'n gallu gwneud system ar gyfer y canoland. Yn ni'n golygu'n gŵr ar gyfer y canoland, roeddwn ni ni'n golygu'n gŵr i gyd. Ond, yw'n mynd i siaraddol, mae'n mynd i'n gŵr bulwch, oedd y cwestiwn o'r canoland oherwydd canoland o'r canoland hon ac mae'n이에요 o'r canoland a widerach. is what does music mean to me? What does sound mean to me? And sometimes when we think of sound, it could be, I mean, I don't know what we often ask what rhythm do you like? What's your favorite rhythm? What's your favorite piece of music? What's your favorite composer or something? But do we actually ask what's your favorite sound? You know, I don't think we do really. What is our favorite sound? So for me, I really like low sounds. I love the bass drum sound. You know, much more than a glockenspiel or a cymbal or something. And that has resonance. You know, I just feel it is something velvody. It's something that spans out like this, where there's a chance for the body to digest that sound. Well, that's that's me, you know, for somebody else, it may mean nothing at all. And that's absolutely fine. But you're right. It is always having this platform where we can just reach out to something that is as necessary as food, water, shelter, a roof over our head. Yes, gentlemen, the second row here. I was just wondering what your thoughts or your feelings of connections would be with popular music, jazz music, rock music. I mean, are there many people in that world could do what you do? Or could you swap places with Stuart Copland for an afternoon? That kind of a thing or would you see your peer group? If you're talking about sound, your peer group not necessarily be in the percussionists, but maybe some guy with keyboards who has an awful lot of sounds at his disposal. So could you see the interchangeability, I think, of different genres of music, popular music, jazz, et cetera? Could you see yourself performing those roles and likewise, musicians from those genres doing what it is that you do? I think that for musicians, they have to listen to themselves. I don't think that you can start to say they should or should not do this or that. A musician just does and feels what they do naturally. So if someone wants to specialise in jazz and that's where they feel most at home, that's absolutely fine. If it's someone's a rock drummer, that's absolutely fine. A timpanist and an orchestra, that's absolutely fine. It's recognising what makes them really come alive and where their curiosity, their natural curiosity might be. It's making sure that they will have a platform in order to present what they do. And I think that's the power of festivals, really. It's the power of something that belongs to the community, because the community really likes to reach out to different aspects of music. Some people like opera, some people like classical, some people love to see a youth orchestra, some people like to see a folk group and so on. And all of those things need to be celebrated for sure. And they're all relevant, actually. But because we're inclined to say, well, I like that and I don't like that, that's absolutely fine. But I think music institutions can really help to bring and build some of these bridges in connection with the different disciplines of music. So, you know, we've seen this a lot with the Royal Scottish Conservatoire, with the traditional music and contemporary music. You know, it's quite fascinating how these two sort of arms have come together and the kind of new creations that have come about, really, really interesting. I think also musicians are naturally now, partly because of social media, where they can make these connections directly, reaching out to different kinds of musicians and thinking, oh, you know, what might this collaboration look like? You know, it may not go anywhere, but who knows? And it's having a chance to explore that. In my own situation, you know, I've always seen myself as simply a musician. My speciality has been solo percussion and having percussion as a spine run through every project. But I haven't seen myself as a classical musician, a jazz musician or any other type of musician, it's just a musician. And that means that, you know, you can find yourself in these different landscapes and feel as though, actually, I fit in here, I feel as though I belong in here or I belong enough in order to explore this kind of possibility. And I think the longevity of our creativity is about having that platform to explore and always be curious. You know, if suddenly we're hemmed in or hostage to a situation where people expect us to do something in such a way, then that really is dangerous ground to be on. I think we have to allow our young people to know that they can explore. So if, you know, the leader of the Edinburgh Youth Orchestra wants to team up and contact, you know, Eminem or Kate Bush or something, let that happen. You know, see what happens there or to do a project with Phil Cunningham. Let that happen. Let's see what's going to happen there. It's that to me, I find fascinating. And that's what I love festivals to really explore are these different kinds of combinations and letting this freedom really, really happen. I'm going to go to the lady at the back and then I'll come back to you. Yes, lady in the fourth row. Hello, my name is Ena, I'm a drama teacher. I often find that young people are really scared of making mistakes. They consume a lot of stories, but they don't see themselves as confident story makers, so I really encourage them to enjoy their mistakes and learn from them. And I wondered what was your best mistakes and what have you learnt from them? What was your best mistake and what did you learn from it? My best mistake was not a musical one, actually. No, it was when I bought my first house in my first flat, I should say, in London. And I thought that the same system ran up and down the country and that you paid the asking price, which was the case that happened in Scotland. And so that was a big mistake I made. But there we go. You live and learn. But it's interesting. I don't really have any regrets. Big decisions have been made whereby I've been very aware of the consequences. So an example of that was when for many, many years I had agents in different parts of the world and they would find concerts for you and so on. And however, you had exclusivity with those agents and also they in those days would specialise in concertos and recitals. And I wanted to do other things, other types of collaborations, for example, just other things to keep myself buoyant because I was finding myself just going round and round a little bit. And so I made a pretty big decision to forgo the agents and just basically manage myself with knowing that there would be far less concerts. However, there would be the freedom to explore other territories. And that's exactly what happened, but it made me a much happier person. And it created things that would not necessarily have happened. But of course, this was pre social media and all sorts of things like that. So you have to think historically about these things as well. Now, the whole landscape of managing somebody has changed. And so we have to now open ourselves up to where we are at at this point in time. But this is just a few years ago. And so it's an example where things are continually changing and changing at quite a quick rate, to be honest. And so it's very exciting, but it gives us all the more reason to listen to our young folk and listen to those who are supporting these people. And really having them here as part of a conversation. And what is it that music means to them? You know, what is it in their lives that makes them do what they do? And how might they see this moving forward in their situations? How might they see the industry in 100 years' time? How might we be listening in 100 years' time? What will be on our stages in our 100 years' time? How will we be interacting with our technology, our phones and whatever else? Or will it be something that we're looking at? Will it be something that we trigger by tapping our head or our knee or whatever? We don't know, but it's all possible. Actually, you know, just moving my big toe triggers something off. We don't know. And it's a fascinating time to be in. But it's all the more reason to listen to each other. Does that make it easier to persuade children and young people not to be fearful of mistakes? And that the question being raised that often children are fearful about telling their stories or performing music. How do you allay those fears and allow youngsters just to embrace it? It has to be embraced. You know, this is part of the reason why the sounds of science project is important, because this is a project that can go on and on and on. What is the sound of my community? What is the sound of my home? What is the sound of my school? What is the sound of my journey to school? What is the sound of my playground? You know, what is the sound of my kitchen? Whatever it might be and and think about what might the sound of my community be in 50 years time or how do I want the sound of my community to be in 50 years time? So it's really allowing them to have those conversations. It's so important. Those conversations don't always have to come through a musical instrument. And then for us to say, oh, she can play, but he can't or you know, that's really good, but that's that's not really good. It's not about that at all. You know, it's what you were saying that it belongs to us all. You know, in whatever capacity that is, it's a meaningful thing to us all. We just have to have that belief, that root, that opportunity and have that listening platform. Gentlemen there. I've been listening to you. Listening and listening. And it seems to me everything you're saying distills down to one really great idea, which is that music brings benefit to us as humans. So going on from the question that you just pondered yourself, how will we be listening to music in a hundred years? My question is how important now is it that music is composed by humans? Music is. How important is it that music is composed by humans? Oh, AI. Should we embrace it or be terrified? This sounds like an all, an in conversation all to itself. But how do we how do we deal with AI? Do we embrace it? Do we try to control it? Well, we're kind of involved with it already. You know, I mean, years and years and years ago, I know that some of my recordings were used and uses backing tracks for this and that, you know, without my knowledge or looped and all sorts of things. And that was quite surprising when it happened, you know, and I was fairly, you know, a bit indignant about it and whatever. I think the important thing message I would put forward is that music is about emotion and and that really comes from us human beings. It really does. So all of the nuances that comes from music making is that's what makes us unique and it's what makes each one of us, you know, you can line up 10 snare drums of the same make, the same size, the same model, you name it, but have 10 different players playing exactly the same thing and it will be, you know, that nth of a difference each time and that special, you know, that is what's so extraordinary about us. So I would always feel that there is space for the human being to compose, to create music, to connect with music. Technology will obviously play a part, of course it will, but I think that there has to be this realisation that what we create is valued and protected. It has to be protected and it has to be rewarded accordingly. People's creativity doesn't just sort of, you know, it's not there for people to pick off like, you know, apples on a tree. It has to be acknowledged and and, yeah, it has to be respected and it's that that is used then as inspiration moving forward, you know, for the next generation and so on. So that's why, you know, when you see someone play is quite different to even just watching them on the computer. I think that's what we missed during the pandemic is that we didn't get this physical feeling of sound, you know, when you see a violinist play and you just see how that violin is, that the face is resting on the instrument or the rosin from the bow or just everything or a percussion player and feeling that sound is a very different sensation and we need to protect that, value that and make sure there's a platform for that always. I've got a sneaky hunch we're going to return to this in future festivals of politics in its wider sense. Right, we've probably got time for a couple more questions. If the questions are reasonable brief, I've got the lady at the second row back and then we'll come to the gentleman in the back row. Hello. My late father was brought up in the northeast of Scotland and he was a body ballad singer. He was also a prisoner of war with the Japanese during the Second World War. He died when he was nearly 87. And we were told by somebody who knew a man that when he sang in the camp, everybody stopped, including the guards. And I also believe that, you know, he was a farmer, he sang at his work. And I think that was one of the ways that he helped him to heal in the days when he came back. So I think that what you're saying about music being an essential part of our being was very much the thing for my dad. Absolutely, I think that reinforces the point about the daily medicine as well, I think, isn't it? Yes, it is. And I think that is exactly, as you say, the power of music is that it can be placed in so many situations, sometimes planned, sometimes unplanned. And I think that that's what makes music so special. You know, the other day we had a little girl who came to visit us when I'm based in Cambridge and her music teacher had written to us. And said that this little girl is getting bullied at school at the moment. And she's the only one that's wearing hearing aids. And so, you know, she's getting a little bit of a hard time. And so she just felt that, well, maybe just having a little five minute exchange or something together might make a difference. So she came through the door, literally cowering behind her mother, not saying anything. And by the time she left the building, she was leading the adults. Now she left saying, OK, I may not hear as well, but I'm a very good listener. And what we just worked on was listening to the resonance of sound. So striking something so someone might say something not nice to you. But then if you just slow that body down and listen to the resonance, it gives you time to think about an action. So rather than being reactive and saying, how dare you say that to me? Is let that go, let that go. And then you can make your decision thereafter. And it made all the difference to her. I mean, this is why we listen to the acoustics and the acoustics really is our instrument, you know, not the cello or the violin or the marimba or whatever, it is what the room and how the room carries that instrument. And in a way, that's what listening is all about. It's just giving the space to listen to the acoustics of listening. And so she just literally left, you know, where she knew that she could listen, even if our hearing is something that could be measured, but the listening was something that she could really control. And that just changed her whole way of moving forward and dealing with situations. And so that wasn't about, you know, playing, percussion or finding, you know, well, let's play this rhythm together and that kind of thing. It was just literally dealing with sounds, with interaction, listening with each other, et cetera, et cetera. And so what do you call that? Do you call that music? Do you call it sound? What do you call it, you know? So so yes, it is incredibly important how we can manipulate in the nicest possible way sound music to the situations that we're in. Good to the gentleman in the very back row there. Hello there. How are we doing? I have been enjoying the plethora of well-spoken Scottish accents here, pronouncing teas and words like water. I think you might be able to shine a bit of light on something that could be really beneficial, not just to myself, but to others, which is your comment there about looking for the next Lang Lang and that guy that got put on that television show, The Piano, where I got trained by Lang Lang. How wonderful. But something came up for me that became really, really clear, which is socio-economic background and your life circumstance, with family and so on and so forth, seems to really, really determine how accessible the creative industries and music is for an individual. I have a lot of friends who have came through a very similar situation as me as of to despite being creatives and musicians, we were never able to co-operate with the academic music world, and this is for a lot of reasons from the language to the lack of just how education is delivered to people who are in a situation where it is not of the culture that they are brought up in to co-operate within those confines. So for somebody like me, I find it very difficult to understand where I should go next. I have all my work, I can do all my shows. However, my understanding of the music world has not been academic. It has not been operas at the Usher Hall and so on and so forth. It has been night clubs, it has been raves, it has been music festivals, it has been long nights at five in the morning seeing human society at its best and at its worst. And this is wholly removed from what I've been observing of the academic music world, and therefore I find it very difficult to meet people or to understand where to network from someone who's coming from outside of that circumference because I'm in my little flat that's far, far outside of Edinburgh or anywhere in what is called a deprived area, apparently, which suits well for me playing my piano and making all of my songs and all my music all day, but getting into the town knowing where I should go or feeling comfortable to go. Oh, in fact, why don't I just go speak to them in university? Why don't I go see these people? Oh, they wouldn't want to speak to me. I'm a grotty chap to these people. They might not even understand my accent. And I quite quickly would alienate myself from it and don't feel comfortable to know where to go or where to start. So I'm wondering for someone who has travelled around, what is your advice to people like me? Well, thank you very much for that question. And it's interesting that you pick up on the fact that perhaps we've been emphasising on the academic journey of music. And I think it is important to know, as we've said really all morning, that music does belong to us all. The very fact that you've got a piano in your flat and the fact that you are able to go to all of these different musical experiences, raves or whatever it might be is really, really crucial. And the fact that you are here is absolutely valuable. And that's really important that we're able to express what your feelings are. And it is interesting what you're saying because I think that there's possibly and through technology, through social media, through the means that we can reach out to different people, is to express almost what you have just said and that question that you have asked. Well, how can I connect? But you know what? One of the things that you do as a young professional musician, you know, we're not far removed at all. In fact, we're probably in exactly the same place where we think, oh, God, you know, how do I go up to that person and say, oh, hello, I'm Evelyn and this is what I do. And, you know, we think they're not going to listen. And so we all have that kind of insecurity in a way that that's perfectly natural. But like everything else, it needs to be practised. You know, we've just got to make that step to go up, you know, go backstage and say, oh, hello. And if somebody ignores you, they ignore you. And that's that. The point is that you have done your bit by going up. And I think that once we get used to that feeling of approaching people, you know, and just saying to them, you know, what you've just said, very passionately, that means an awful lot. You know, it really does. And I will remember what you said when I walk out of this building and I'll think about what you said. So even if you feel as though something hasn't actually come back to you at that particular point, you never know how that person that you have met is actually going away and feeling. So don't always think that, you know, there's just this blank face that has come your way. So I think that that happens to us all. And it happens to many people in all different kinds of professions. So you know that you can step in to a situation and say your your piece, you know, say what you're feeling. And that is incredibly powerful. That is something that you should feel really, you know, proud of, very positive of and we're all listening, you know, we really are. But it is something that even, you know, as a seasoned professional, I don't always feel comfortable going up to somebody and saying, you know, hi, and by the way, you know, you might want to listen to this or, oh, this is what I've been doing lately might interest you. I find that very difficult to do myself. I prefer other people doing it, but sometimes I have to do it. And that's that's just part and partial of what needs to be done. You know, so whatever you do, don't become the victim here. You know, don't get used to poor old me. You know, keep keep going with these steps that you've done. So today what you said is really important, really powerful, and keep making sure your voice is heard. Thank you very much indeed. I'm afraid we have, I think now, gone beyond the time I was supposed to start one yet, so can I thank you all very much indeed for your participation in this in conversation? Can I thank also our partners, the Edinburgh International Festival? And in particular, our BSL interpreters for today's event, Shona Dixon and Heather Graham. Thank you very much indeed. Can I take the opportunity to remind everyone that the festival continues until Friday, including a discussion on how to disagree agreeably at 1.45 p.m. today? I refer back to my point about earlier plugs being acceptable. I'm sharing that event, but there's also an in conversation with the broadcaster and politician, Michael Partillo, tomorrow, followed by a discussion on the future of Scotland's arts and culture amongst other events and finally closing the Festival of Politics partnership with the Edinburgh International Festival series of talks on where we go from here. There'll be an in conversation with one of the world's foremost music conductors of today, Gustavo Dudamel on Friday, the 25th of August. But can I conclude by offering a particular thanks to Dame Evelyn Glennie for being so generous with her time, so thoughtful in her responses? I will certainly be listening to my inner babble more often as we go forward. But can I ask you in the usual way to show your appreciation for Dame Evelyn Glennie?