 Hello, good morning, and good afternoon. Welcome to the IA Webinar on Critical Minerals. I'm Taehyun Kim from the International Agency. So today is the first session of the two part Webinar on Critical Minerals. Today in part one, we will discuss the topic about the market outlook and also geopolitical implications and also the ways to scale up investment in for diversification. So we have some excellent line of panelist from industry, investment bank, and also development finance institutions. So we have four great speakers. So first, we have this Marbley shot from BOT in 12, the general manager for international obvious and strategy in battery matters from BOT in 12. And second, we have the Conan Hamilton, the managing director of the BMO factor market. And third, we will have the Michael Willoughby, global head of metals and mining in HSBC. And finally, we have the Katerina Oteb, the senior investment officer in metals and mining in IFC. So before the moving on to the panel discussion, then we will invite the Mr. Satoshi Katahira to give some opening remarks, because this event, this webinar is supported by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in Japan, so he will give some opening remarks to set the scene. So Mr. Katahira, thanks for supporting this webinar. And now, the floor is yours. Hello, good evening, and good afternoon, good morning. I don't know, maybe there are some time differences, but yeah. My name is Satoshi Katahira, Director General of Economic Affair Bureau of MOFA, Japan. And I'm very glad to be here to make short remarks. At the occasion of the important webinar today, countries accelerate their decarbonization effort. There is growing international interest in critical minerals that are essential to the clean energy transition. Against this backdrop, the IAEA is holding the critical minerals and the clean energy summit this September is very timely. We appreciate the IAEA's contribution in this field. The summit was deemed a meaningful opportunity for various factors, including resource-rich countries. The private sector and civil society to discuss and deepen cooperation to ensure a sustainable and responsible supply chain. This webinar is the first of two events to be held under Japanese government's voluntary contribution. And it's being implemented through the efforts of the IAEA Secretariat. We look forward to a lively discussion with the speakers based on the key takeaway from the recent summit, which focused on accelerating progress toward diversified mineral supplies. As countries move forward, decarbonization demands for critical minerals, such as cobalt, nickel, and rare earths, which are key raw materials or renewable energy equipment, such as batteries and wind turbine, is expected to increase sharply in the future. Like supply demand conditions and disruptions in the stable supply of key minerals in the future could be obstacle to a smooth energy transition. From this perspective, it is necessary to address geopolitical risks in the supply of critical minerals, such as geographical unevenness of reserves and an oligopoly of refining and processing processes by certain countries. And to diversify and strengthen the supply chain through responsible and sustainable development. Adhere to high ESG standards is the first step toward sustainable development in which resource-rich countries. Strengthening the governance capacity of resource-rich countries and ensuring that development meets high ESG standards that take into account the human rights of workers and the surrounding environment will ensure the interests of local people and lead to sustainable development and increased supply. In this regard, we welcome the fact that the IEA Critical Mineral Working Party, CMWP, is preparing policy recommendations to clarify rules and principles related to ESG criteria. I hope that the IEA will continue to promote the necessary rulemaking. In order to implement new projects that meet high ESG standards, it is necessary to deepen collaboration and dialogue with consuming countries, resource-rich countries, and private companies and investors. In this regard, Japan, in cooperation with the United States and certain other countries, is supporting compliance with ESG standards in resource-rich countries through the Mineral Security Partnership MSP and is promoting efforts to attract a wide range of investment. In order to diversify supply, support for the refining and processing sectors in resource-rich countries is necessary. In this regard, Japan has just launched the partnership for a strong and inclusive supply chain, so-called RISE, based on the outcome of the G7 Hiroshima Summit. By utilizing this scheme, we would like to promote sustainable development through diversification and high-value adding of industries in resource-rich countries. At the RISE Summit, many resource-rich countries and private companies pointed out the importance of obtaining social license and trust from local residents and the long-term stability of resource-rich countries' governmental policies in order to ensure sustainable development and diversification of supply in resource-rich countries. In today's webinar, I hope to have a frank exchange of views on the experience of private companies and the financial institutions and the challenges they face in pursuit of the common goal of supply diversification. Thank you very much. I hope you have a good discussion today. Thank you for your support on this webinar. And then now, I'd like to invite the panelists, speakers, to give some opening presentation for our global intervention. So I'd like to invite Mark from Rio Tinto first. So Rio Tinto is rapidly expanding into the energy transition mineral space. So how Rio Tinto is approaching the energy transition mineral investment and also how you approach on the circular economy and the impacts of partnership. So, Mark, your floor is yours. Thank you. Thanks, Taeyun. And thank you very much for the opportunity to join this panel. If you can move on to the first slide, please. To start with just a quick overview of Rio Tinto, we are a 150-year-old diversified miner. We operate in 35 different countries where we produce iron ore, copper, aluminum, boron, diamonds, titanium dioxide. And a range of other critical minerals and specialty materials for the clean energy transition. The slide on the screen is specific to our critical minerals operations and projects. It includes mines, processing infrastructure, and research and development centers. It's intended to show that we have a global critical minerals footprint across many different minerals and with positions up and down the value chain. This map doesn't capture sort of exploration activities, nor the many critical minerals that we have in potentially recoverable concentrations in ores or waste streams that we don't currently exploit. Next slide, please. So where is Rio Tinto directing our investment to support the global energy transition? Firstly, we're accelerating our own decarbonization, switching to renewable power, electrifying processing, and where possible, running electric mobile fleets. We estimate that we'll need to spend, or we'll spend, $7.5 billion in capital between now and 2030 to deliver our decarbonization strategy, which will see our greenhouse gas emissions reduced by 50% in that time frame. Secondly, we're increasing our investment in R&D to speed up the development of technologies that will enable our customers to decarbonize. So technology and partnerships will have a key role to play. And finally, we're prioritizing growth capital in commodities that are essential for the drive to net zero, which is why we established our battery materials business in 2021. And we're focused on finding, producing, and refining critical minerals through assets, technology, and partnerships. Next slide, please. The image on this slide is of Scandium, a critical mineral that is in increasing demand for modern technologies, for aerospace, for lasers, and electronics, due to its alloying qualities and emerging high tech properties. At our Quebec operations in Canada, we have gone within a couple of years from testing a process to then extracting this critical mineral in a lab, and to now being able to supply about 20% of the global Scandium market. We also combine this Scandium with our own low carbon aluminium to produce an alloy that is stronger, more flexible, and more resistant to heat and corrosion than would be pure aluminium. So the source of the Scandium is waste streams from our titanium dioxide production. So our approach to Scandium is therefore illustrative of an alternative approach to the supply of critical minerals, namely circular economy principles using existing ores, waste streams, and processing infrastructure. This approach mitigates a number of problems that are often inherent with the supply of many critical minerals, namely high capex and long periods of payback, relatively small and volatile markets for some critical minerals, and various ESG factors. So not to discount the role of new mines, nor the importance of recycling, supply of critical minerals using these circular economy principles or approach can provide an alternative supply of critical minerals. That is cheap, quick to market, has high ESG credentials, and complements other long dated sources of supply, such as via new mines or recycling. So in particular, there's an opportunity to use these existing ores and waste streams and processing infrastructure to extract more minerals than we currently do so. So once ores have been extracted and crushed and put into a soluble form, including as waste, it's relatively inexpensive to extract additional minerals. Once permits have been obtained for an existing site, it's usually easier to do other similar activities on that same site without going through new permitting processes. And once processing infrastructure has been built, the marginal cost to extract other minerals using the same infrastructure can be relatively small. And finally, extracting more from existing sites and activities means that we need to open less new mines and produce less waste, which helps with social license. It sounds great in theory, but there are many practical examples. So in addition to Scandium, we co-produce 3% of the global supply of tellurium from waste from our Kennecott copper mine. And we've recently announced a partnership with Fortune Minerals to develop technology to recover cobalt and business from similar copper ores. It sounds easy, but it's not. It takes a different mindset to think about the wider applications of mining or industrial sites. Next slide, please. My final point is about the importance of partnerships and technology. Breakthrough technology and science is vital to finding better ways to deliver the materials the world needs with partnerships and collaborations providing pathways for the energy transition. To support technology development, Rio Tinto has research centres in Australia and Canada that we've been operating for more than 50 years. Other partnerships include taking equity positions along the value chain to better understand our markets and emerging technologies. Not included on this slide, but equally important are our partnerships with governments and communities. I will leave it there, but very happy to answer any questions during the course of the discussion. Thank you. Thank you, Mark. It's very interesting to see Rio Tinto is adapting some holistic strategy approach in comparison with investment and technology partnership and also the circular economy aspect. And especially the stand-in case is very interesting, so I've made invite you to talk more about that aspect in the panel discussion sessions. So we now move on to the next speaker, which is a seasoned commodity market analyst, the Colleen Emiton from the BMO Capital Market. So Colleen is looking at the broad spectrum of the Minerals and Metas from all the way from base metals to precious metals to value metals. So Colleen, the welcome, thanks for joining. And then you might share some of your view about how the market would evolve in the coming years and also some of the implications of the geopolitical situation in the commodity market. So Colleen, the flow is yours. You can maybe show your screen to the host representation. Thank you. Thank you very much. Can you see my screen at the current time? I think you are on mute, but if you can't see my slide script, you could probably share them from your side. That would be very helpful. Yeah, thank you very much for the invitation. My name's Colin Hampton. Unfortunately, my video is definitely not working. I'm gonna talk today briefly about what we see in terms of some of these metals, some of the key challenges for the metals and mining industry on the whole. Thank you very much, Eric. So, if we move to the next slide, please. I mean, BMO very briefly, we are a large North American-based investment bank. We are pretty big in metals and mining. That's what we do globally. We host the world's largest global metals and mining conference. We will hold our 33rd one of those next February. Very proud of the work we do there. But if we move to the next slide, get let's get on to the key thing around critical minerals. That's interesting. For commodity analysis, we're used to things moving slowly. We're used to, if we have next slide, please, Eric. That's okay, thank you. So, in commodity analysis, we're used to things moving quite slowly. We use steel and copper for many of the same things that we have done for the past 100 years. Now, we're being faced with an environment where the fuel to materials transition is accelerating change. And we're not used to technological change in metals and mining. And it's a hard thing to adapt to. So the question I get a lot as well, what metals will we need for this transition? And essentially the answer is all of them to certain degrees. Just look at left hand side there. I mean, that is the energy transition demand delta for some of the key metals that we may look at. So we'll focus a little bit later on some of the more niche ones, but for copper, we see, I mean, 10% total demand at the current time coming from the energy transition in 2030, we're seeing strong growth in areas like aluminium and indeed in nickel. So these are well-established markets, but we're starting to see on an unconstrained basis, strong demand growth coming through. And that does naturally put strain on the supply side of the industry. But then if we look at that right hand side, and I borrowed the IEA's data here. So Mark talked nicely about the battery side. If we look at things like the power generation side. Now, no matter where we are in the world, we're moving to an environment where we are looking to, for more energy independence, we are looking for a low carbon future. And as we move towards solar and wind, these are naturally much more metals-intensive than the fossil fuel-based plant incumbents that we have seen before. And this is a global phenomenon. So we've gone from a situation in metals mining markets where honestly, China property has been the key driver for much of the past 20 years. Now we're moving to a global thematic and that is involving a lot more materials. If we move to the next slide, please Eric. Now, when we talk crystal minerals and we talk metals generally, you can't avoid China. China's 50% of global copper output, 50% of refined, 58% refined aluminium output. But then if we look at these critical metals, well, in many cases, China's even larger. We get to the case of gallium there, over 90% of refined gallium comes from China. So naturally policies, if you want, are dictated around the vulnerabilities we have from a single supplier being so important. What I did want to highlight in this slide though, is that those vulnerabilities actually go further back up the supply chains. If we look there at, if we consider how China gets the raw material for this high refined metal output, well, there's a lot of very concentrated dependencies on the ore side. That's 2022, if we look at it, China got about 100% of cobalt from the DRC. Now that is being diversified a little bit. We're seeing more coming from Indonesia now. But those high dependency there on Philippines, on South Africa, in the tin side, in Myanmar and we've seen disruption to that trade flow this year. So the vulnerabilities in these critical mineral chains are not just on the China refined side, it's actually upstream as well. And that's where we, I mean, for wider global benefit we need to start diversifying that risk. Just to give you an example of something that's on there that people may not think about. Magnesium, second bottom on the left hand chart. So 87% of that coming from China, a lot of it coming from just one province in China. So when we had the energy crisis in the end of 2021, we actually saw supply of magnesium fall quite dramatically. And that just shows the vulnerabilities that the price basically spiked 50% in very short order. This is the sort of thing we're trying to alleviate because it makes it very hard to plan. Let's move to the next slide, please Eric. Now, the global mining industry is very different to how it used to be. It used to be that in metals mining, make money, put more money back into the ground. Now, global mining expansion CapEx used to be 20 to 25% of EBITDA generated by the sector as a whole. That's now running more like 10%. A lot more money going back to shareholders, a lot less going into the ground. Now, if you look at left hand chart there, it is global mining expansion CapEx. It's starting to pick up, but it's still very hesitant. It's never been harder to build a mine. And it's very hard for boards who have been penalized in the past and management teams to make that decision to go and put money back in the ground again. And with that, we're starting to see some pickup in overall spending, but that's more generated by inflation. On a light for light basis, that's hardly a pickup at all. I would also say if we look at that right hand side, we're not saying the prompts that you might need. Spot prices today for many of the materials we would consider as critical to the fields of materials transition are lower than they were at this time last year and also below our long run price. So this is a pro cyclical industry. And in that type of situation, people are not going to make decisions to invest in new assets. So we're not getting the typical supply response that you might need in order to solve the potential problem that we have in the future. And bear in mind, commodity prices are not forward looking. They always price the market of today. Today's market has enough supply. Now I did highlight, put one on there, uranium. That is one where we have seen a lot of interest come through. And now we're getting spot prices to the level that will justify some investment. And obviously, as we see things that small modular reactors come through, that will be part of the potential solution. So commodity prices can get there, but at the moment, they're not showing the signals necessary to get investment. Can we have the next slide, please, Eric? Now geopolitics is very interesting. I mean, we're moving to a world we've talked about and commodities and critical minerals at the forefront of this, where we are segmenting the world to a certain extent. And I've just put up on the left hand side there. And this is not making any judgment, just saying, well, what proportion of our commodity supply comes from, let's say, China and Russia and the developed world. And then you have the middle ground, where potentially, if you want to call it, it is the battlefield. And securing raw materials supply becomes very important. Now, what I think is very interesting as we segment these value chains, traceability is very important for critical minerals. Low carbon performance is critically important for everything we're trying to achieve from a global standpoint. I see a potential where we will move towards more qualification rather than, let's say, a premium. We know there's going to be a cost, but I put up the example there of the copper mark on the right hand side. The copper mark is a third-party audited reference for the copper industry to say, look, as a consumer, you can trust this material. This is best practice material from a traceability, from a social governance standpoint, and from a carbon standpoint. And I think as we've head towards a more segmented world, this is the type of policy we might need to see from a consumer standpoint, in order to get more traction through critical minerals chains more generally and solve some of the problems we're looking at. And then just the next slide, please. That's gone back one, if we can go forward, sorry. Just my last slide here. And this last slide, we've talked a lot about the supply side here. Now, supply is obviously what we look to in the mining industry to react. And in the field of materials transition, we know we will need more supply, but I'm painting the picture here that we are not going to solve the problem with the supply side. We've kind of missed that challenge in many cases. I simply cannot get enough mine supply to solve the problem in 2030 based on what's been approved already. So then you have to say, well, if the supply side can't do it, what else can we do? And you have to look at the demand side. So what I think we'll see more and more is markets will actually start to design out, we're great engineers in the world. We'll start to design around problems. I've just used the primings up here of copper. And now copper is one that's a very, everyone knows about the copper industry, but it's one where we're likely to have to see more substitution in order to meet the needs. So we see potential for use for aluminium in various areas. We're starting to see air conditioner manufacturers do that already. It's an inferior product, but if needs must, you can use it and you can design around. I also highlight there, we put up thrifting. So in things like electric vehicles, the more the first electric vehicles were proof of concept, they were naturally over engineered. We see potential there to actually thrift out some material, use a little bit less per vehicle. And that can also help solve the problem. So we focus a lot on the supply side. I think there will be demand side adjustments. And I also think circular economy behaviour, as we use that more and more, will take that capital stock that we have in place for metals. And this is the one thing about metals relative to fossil fuels. Fossil fuels, you use once and you use up metals, you can of course use again. And I think both the finance industry and indeed the OEMs of manufacturing, as people look to manage their scope threes, will push circular economy behaviour a lot more. And we will see scrap become much more strategic, bear in mind that scrap is the one thing that the developed world is long of. I will stop there, pass on to the next presenter, but I look forward to taking your questions later on. Thank you. And thank you Corrine, it's very interesting to see that the supply may not be able to bear all the buzzers. So we need to some holistic approach in comparison for supply and technological innovation and recyclability. But just maybe one clarifying question from our side about this slide on the left chart. And it's very interesting that in terms of the when the market is become tightening, then some kind of demand rationing and demand sacrifice might happening. But then the question is, everybody is asking questions about which sector might sacrifice demand and which sector might maintain some robust resilient demand. So this chart in a way, you try to quantify that picture. So how did you, what kind of information indicated that you used to draw that chart about this potential substitution on the X axis? Yeah, so obviously we did a bit of work to and those data available for the breakdown of copper end use. We then did a bit of a desk review on that and then we spoke to people involved. So for commercial air conditions, we spoke to Dakin, Japanese air conditioner manufacturer, to say, are you thinking about it? They say, yes, we're looking to switch 50% of our domestic market commercial air conditioners into aluminium tubing. So I mean, it is again, talking to the industry. Now, where can you substitute? You can substitute copper for aluminium where there's no space constraint because aluminium, both the thermal and electrical conductivity is lower for a cross sectional area. So you would need bigger, so for example, you can see a big circle there as a distribution network. You can use aluminium alloy wiring in distribution, but it does come with its own problems. You need certain engineering skills, electrical engineer skills to be able to use that in installations. You need certain fire resistance qualifications. So nothing is easy, but what we've seen in the past is that commodity markets tend to find a solution. I get frustrated when I see big deficits projected in markets. That does not happen. You have to be smarter than that. We all have to be smarter than that and think about solutions. Substitution and thrifting is a key part of the solution. Thank you, Colin. It's very interesting. So now we can move on to the next speaker, the microphone from the HSBC. So as an active investor in this space, and where do you see some market opportunities in the coming years? And also what kind of risks you see, what kind of risk factors you consider when making the best decisions? So, Michael, thanks for joining and then please share some of your insights. Thank you. Great. Thank you very much. And thank you, Mark and Colin, for the interesting presentations. Unfortunately, I don't have any slides, but I think you'll find this will be controversial and should prompt quite a few questions. So maybe an introduction. So HSBC is the biggest capital provider to the mining and metals sector globally, about 25 billion with about 960 clients globally. And we do things like IPOs in Indonesia. We do project finance in Argentina. We put together JVs in Saudi. We do M&A in Australia. So we see this industry from all sides and just full disclosure, I lived in Japan at high school. I lived in Beijing at university, lived in Hong Kong and Singapore for a long time and I'm from Australia originally. So I can also see all sides to the argument. And so firstly, let's look at transition. So transition is not a one or two or $10 billion problem. It's tens of trillions of dollars across huge industries that have been doing the same thing for hundreds or 100 years. So this is not something that governments are going to solve with their own capital. This is going to be something that has to be solved by private capital. It's too big to be solved by one country, one market, one region or governments. So the policy incentives are absolutely critical to then determining where that private capital gets spent. So that's number one. Number two, most of the expansionary capital and Colin, maybe we can come back to you later, but I would assume number one, getting that expansionary capex number is very, very difficult because a bigger proportion of that number now is from developing countries and a lot of that is private capital, not listed. What Rio and BHP and the big Western miners do is not really that relevant for transition outside of copper. And that's obviously pretty controversial, but let's explore the data a little bit more. And then you've got the geopolitics and yes, China is very dominant in many critical metals, but thank goodness they've invested that capital because without that capital, we wouldn't have those critical metals now and we wouldn't have the transition that we have. We wouldn't have the EV penetration that we have. We wouldn't have the battery manufacturing capacity. So it's really important that that has been spent and I think that's worth noting. And then you have the ESG problems with China and I think it's wrong to classify everything that China does as an ESG problem. I mean, a lot of the new capacity that is being built is very sensitive to the West's demands on ESG. I mean, you look at a lot of the new nickel capacity in Indonesia, it's hydro, it's solar, it's gas, it's not necessarily coal fired. And thank goodness they've invested 35 billion over the last five years in Indonesia for nickel supply, otherwise there's no way we would have the EVs that we have now. So the real question is, well, why is China so dominant? It's not just necessarily government policy that's driven that, there's a deeper issue at play here. There's a reason why the major miners in Western countries are not the big investors in critical metals. There's a reason why most of the processing capacity is not built in Australia or the US or the UK or even Japan anymore. And I don't think we talk about it enough. And the reason is cost of capital. So let's look at cost of equity between developed markets and developing markets. And consistently over the last 10 years if you take the metals and mining sector and you take like-for-like companies, developing markets that Saudi, Indonesia, India, China have a 40% advantage in cost of equity. Now, if you think about how important that cost of equity is if you're a Rio Tinto and you trade it five, four or five times one year forward cashflow, what are you going to do? Are you going to invest in a 10 year greenfield project or are you going to invest in processing technology whether it returns uncertain or are you going to buy back shares at a certain four or five times cashflow? You're going to buy back shares every single time. You don't have the cost of equity to take a risk. You compare a sister company to Rio. And not singly out Rio, it's Western metals and mining companies in general. If we then look at a Chinese miner, let's say Zijin which trades on let's say nine or 10 times cashflow, well at that cost of equity, you can risk that capital, some capital in terms of greenfield expansion. You can risk that capital in terms of processing technology, right? So the cost of equity is critical to determining how much risk and how much new capacity you can build. And you ask, why is the cost of capital so different? And it's really interesting because there's no simple answer to that. There is a simple answer but I don't think many people are talking about it. If you look at Western capital markets, it's 85% institutional, half of that is indexed. The other half is active. But you think of what a firm manager does, they're trying to match their future cashflow obligations which are pensions with a portfolio of current investments. They don't want huge upside. They certainly don't want huge downside. They don't want volatility. They want consistency. And the one thing mining and commodity markets don't have is consistency. You have huge commodity price variation and you have greenfield risk which may or may not turn into value when you've finished it. The capex that you spend, it might be two billion, it might end up being four billion. It's very hard for Western listed companies to absorb that risk. Now, if you compare that to emerging markets, China is 80% retail. That means mums and dads investors, not funds. Indonesia is 65% retail. India is 60% retail. Saudi is 55% retail. You think about when you invest in a share, you actually like that volatility. You want it to be volatile to trade it. You want greenfield expansionary risk to create value in the long term. It's how Western markets used to be 30 years ago. So, in my mind, that is the absolute core problem with why the West cannot build new capacity and why in its current form, it's going to be very, very difficult to diversify the supply chain. So, that's one part of it. The second part of it is government subsidies. So, let's look at what Saudi is doing at the moment. Saudi is, if you invest in industrial plant in Saudi at the moment, you'll get 75% leverage at a very low coupon from state banks and you'll get a five-year tax holiday. If you do the same thing in a Western country, you won't get anything like that and it massively impacts the end return that you get on that investment. And that is one of the reasons. So, that's similar to the subsidies that China has done over the years, but it's also similar to what Japan does. It's similar to what Korea does. It's similar to what Indonesia does. That's why the industrial capacity is being built there. So, you have those two things in play. Now, one of the questions I used to ask myself is why do Western markets invest so much in technology? Software, for example, that's risky as well. Well, because a small investment in technology has potentially a huge payoff in mining and processing, it's the opposite. A huge investment in mining or processing may end up with an economic return on capital. It may, you don't know, but you have to make a huge investment upfront. So, it's a very different risk proposition for a Western capital market participant. So, I'll just finish with what we should be doing. Okay, if that's the foundation and that's the core problem, how do you solve it? And I think government incentives is one. So, governments, Western governments should be looking at how to incentivize private capital to be invested onshore, and they should not just look at that capital in terms of processing, but why don't we take the Saudi example and do that in mining upstream investment as well? Because something like that is going to have to be done. The second thing is partnerships. So, Mark talked about Rio's partnerships. I mean, like it or not, the Chinese companies in processing have the best technology, and we should be using that all around the world to reduce the cost of increasing supply of critical metals to then increase the velocity of transition. And the third thing is, and this is an open question, eventually the consumer has to pay for ESG, for certain standards, not suggesting that, I think the industry is moving very quickly in terms of ESG, but there's always room for improvement. The question is, how does the consumer pay and what do they pay? And I look at the iPhone and I look at Nike and big brands like that, okay. They've had problems in the past and they've addressed them to protect their brand reputation. And I think EVs end up being the same thing. And the question is how much does the consumer pay because they're not paying very much at the moment. If you look at the Tesla 3 where their batteries come from, I mean, no one even really questions that, although they get IRA treatment. So I'll leave it there. I understand there's quite a few controversial things in there, I'm happy to take questions. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Michael. It was very interesting, especially you mentioned about this cost of capital issues and which was very interesting. Also, you laid out some key aspect we should consider the incentives, partnership and ESG was very interesting. So we can elaborate that aspect more in the panel discussion session. So now we move on to the final speaker, Ekaterina from IFC. So we cannot overstate the importance of the role of the developer finance institution in facilitating the verify supply. So how IFC is approaching this, the institution, how they are working with developing improvements in enabling investment. So Ekaterina, the 40 years. Many thanks and good morning, good afternoon, good evening to all. Thank you for inviting me. And yes, I'm a senior investment officer and the metals and mining team at the IFC. I'm sure you all know that IFC is the private sector arm of the World Bank. So our role is helping bring private investment and private capital into the emerging markets. Maybe next slide please, Ekaterina. And the following one. Yes, so IFC is one of the, and the World Bank in general is one of the few developing finance institutions that have remained consistently focused on the mining sector, because we believe that this is important for the energy transition. We also believe this is important for the development of the emerging markets. Mining is one of the largest employers in emerging countries with direct jobs and the six times multiplier for individual jobs. So that's our role is the world, it's a climate and it's also the shared prosperity on a renewable plant. So our mining practice is focused mostly on energy transition minerals, where carbon copper, where the carbon lithium. We've invested around 6 billion for the last decade and we work in inequity and debt financing. Next slide. Yes, so here are some examples from recent deals. So we've done one on lithium recently in Argentina. We work in Mongolia, we work with large mining companies trying to develop projects in, let's say challenging jurisdictions. And we also work with smaller players on helping the mining projects out of the ground. Next slide. Yes, so here we've listed some of the partners we work with, you can see Rio here. As I said, we try to be a global solutions provider. So it's not only in my name, it's also the things that hinder the development of mining projects or of the processing projects. So we would work on renewable power to mine solutions. We would work on water to mine solutions on the wastewater use, on the supply chain. We work with communities and trying to improve the social license to operate for mining projects. And obviously given our development role, we focus on either and fragile conflict affected situations where we can bring the maximum value. Next slide. And I think this is very timely because Mr. Kanahira mentioned the rice partnership and we're part of that as well as long as we're together with the World Bank. So the partnership was ready mentioned. It used to support our client countries to increase their participation in the mineral supply chain and improve the value addition of the mining activities in country. So that means processing, that means also enabling environmental processing and infrastructure. And the purpose of this obviously is not only to increase the metals supply and diversify the metals supply but also to support country development through fiscal benefits, through job creation, through human capital growth, through education. So IFC is working with the World Bank to provide guidance on what private sector will require to enable downstream beneficiation in countries. So that's regulatory environment, that's easy practices, technical capacity, et cetera. And we're very excited to be working on this. I would also mention in initiative that's been active since 2019. It's a climate smart mining again jointly with the World Bank. We play a role in the sustainability mining space by helping and together with public and private sector partners and we tend as one of them. The purpose of climate smart mining is to help support the sustainable extraction, the processing, the recycling of minerals and metals while making sure we deliver on social, economic and environmental benefits. So it's basically a knowledge database in a toolbox was published in February of this year, the NetZew roadmap for corporate nickel value chains. We've just published last month, the Climate Mirror Explorer that currently focuses on lithium and graphite that will be expanded. We published work on gender impacts in mining which are quite significant. So please have a look. It's a very global initiative and providing lots of resources for those of you who are interested in this topic. Next slide. And I'll end up with a case study of one of our recent projects in Argentina. So I think we are all aware of the fact that Argentina at the moment is not the easiest investment proposition because of the geopolitical, well, not geopolitical risks, but let's say the country context and the inflation context. I've seen, sees its role as key in country. We believe in the country we're presently on the ground and we work with different companies in Argentina. And so Salda leader is Alcant's project for lithium. It's in Catamarca, so it's 4,000 meters above sea level. I'm sure you can imagine the difficulty that this represents in terms of technical solutions needed even the workforce for this project. And we've recently announced the 180 million loan for this project, which is structured as the green and sustainable loan because it's also linked to KPI, reducing GIG emissions and gender KPIs. So the loan will not only contribute to the improvement of lithium availability for the energy transition, but also to the development of the region of the local communities and the reduction of local emissions. And that's it. Thank you for listening. Please let me know what questions you have. I'll be happy to answer. Thank you. Thank you. It was very interesting also to hear about exact your life examples when you invested in Argentina. So there's many lessons we can draw from such experience. So we now move on to the panel discussion session. I invite all speakers to come to the floor. So for audience, if you have some questions for the speakers and please put that in the Q&A chat in June and then we will pick those questions as to the panelists. And then I will ask questions to each of the speakers, but if you could check in to other questions because we want more dynamic and vibrant discussions. So maybe the first question, I may invite Michael to come back to the stage. And so you mentioned about the cost of capital issues and also the difficulties in tracking the investment levels in the middle of the space. So maybe if we go some granular by commodity and by value chain, we are using some urgent needs to scale investment from a long-term perspective, which commodity you see some biggest the challenges they face in attracting investment. And also maybe you can touch upon the third point you mentioned about ESG aspect. So there are some how the consumers can reward the high ESG performance in the marketplace. So what kind of possible mechanism for that? And also there are questions from the audience about the, what about from some pressure or some the requirement to put the producers industry through the due diligence requirement or some sustainability standard practices. So you can elaborate on your ESG point a little bit more in this discussion. Okay, sorry. So commodities, there's two different lenses to look at that. I mean, one in total, you know, what's the volume of commodities we need and what's the supply and of the third column with that. But, and then the second one is what supply do we need from outside of China to diversify the supply chain? I think there's two separate questions. I think in terms of need for raw commodity from anywhere, I think lithium is the one and by lithium, I mean processed battery grade lithium. So which includes a number of steps in processing. So getting the volume of lithium to where we need to over the next 10 years is going to be really challenging no matter what technology we look at in terms of battery storage or EVs. I mean, lithium, it looks like becoming even more important to battery chemistry over the next few years than it has been in the past. So that would be one. I think copper is the other one that, you know, is a little bit misunderstood. I mean, everyone realizes that we need copper and there's going to be a deficit and that's, you know, that's the most trotted outline in metals and mining. And you can substitute it. Yes, but gee, with cheap copper, you can transition a lot faster because it's a very useful material in a lot of different ways. So I think they're the two commodities and then diversifying the supply chain. Well, that's a completely different question. So, you know, rare earth is obviously pretty critical and nickel is critical. But, you know, let's take nickel, for example. So, I mean, the volume and now cost of refined nickel coming out of Indonesia, which is mostly China funded is absolutely enormous. You know, this year they'll produce 1.5 million tons of contained nickel. You know, Australia produces 160,000 tons of nickel. North America produces 180,000 tons of nickel. That 1.5 coming from Indonesia probably goes to three million tons of contained nickel in the next four years. You know, the Western supply in the context of that volume is irrelevant. And so, you know, it's, if you want to diversify the supply chain, it's a huge, huge task. So that's one ESG. And, you know, let's look at how nickel was in a process in Indonesia five years ago. You, it went through a very, very carbon intensive process that the mines were not regulated in terms of operations. A lot of the tailings went into the sea. There were effectively no regulations, a very little. Now, you have a number of JVs using Chinese technology with Western car manufacturers as investors with Western banks, effectively auditing the ESG trail on behalf of the investors. And, you know, many of them are not coal-fired. The carbon footprint is much lower. The tailings are managed in a very responsible way as far as they can be. The technology is improving. So it's much more efficient in many ways. And the mine operations are increasingly regulated by government and, you know, international agencies. So it's improved a lot. And I think, you know, it's worth reflecting on that, that not all Chinese volume or Indonesian nickel is bad. You know, it's absolutely crucial to aid transition. Thank you, Michael. That is very interesting. So some question about very simplistic approach of ESG is also well noted. So I'm not sure whether Colin is still with us. Colin, are you here? I think Colin has a connection problem. I think then maybe I can invite Mark to the stage. So you, in your presentation, you mentioned about this very interesting project about the recovering the scandium from the mine waste. So maybe how economically viable or technologically advanced the such project? And is there any scope that government can have to make that project, such project more viable? And also from the Q&A box, there are some questions about your regeneration initiatives. What is the potential role for those initiatives? So Mark, I'll continue. Thanks, Taeyun. I can start with the question from the audience. Around the regeneration partnership that we have. So regeneration is an international restoration and reminding social enterprise. It was launched by an entity called Resolve with backing from Rio Tinto and Apple and others. And it seeks to convert mine waste into responsible minerals and turn degraded lands into ecological and community assets. So I think the potential for this type of initiative is very high. And it also goes to the points that have been made earlier around the importance of partnerships. In terms of the viability of supplying minerals via a circular economy approach. So just to reiterate, I mean, supply using a circular economy approach is not going to replace the need for new mines and for recycling, both of which Rio Tinto is also pursuing. Rather, it does need to be part of a multifaceted and coordinated solution to the supply of critical minerals. And it can be particularly helpful in bringing on supply in the short term, whereas new mines and recycling both have longer time horizons. In terms of what could be done to facilitate such supply, firstly, I think recognize this potential source of supply and be interested in the broader set of minerals that might be present in an ore body or a waste stream. There's also an opportunity to map potential sources of additional minerals. So a good example of this is the Atlas of Australian Mine Waste which provides information or is a source of information about Australian mine tailings, waste rock, smelter residues and related mine waste materials. Another area for policy consideration is around environmental liabilities. So there can be circumstances where small players are well positioned to come in towards the end of a life of mine and process the remaining ores or waste material which supplies more critical minerals that provides additional employment and taxes and can also help fund remediation activities. The issue is some closure regulations can impose full liability for all current and historic activities at a site which can deter some of these small players from undertaking some of this work. So getting the balance right in this space is difficult but certainly worth looking at. And then I'd say finally governments and other stakeholders can also promote good work that's happening in this space to educate and encourage others as well as to support the license to operate for these particular activities. Thank you Mark, it's very interesting that you raise out some of the actions that the government can have in terms of the mapping, geological mapping and try to strike some delicate balance between the environmental liabilities and how that's interesting. So I now go to Ekaterina. So you work with many kind of resource holding the development economies in the world. So and many of them actually have some ambition to expand beyond the mining value chain to refining and processing and even the component manufacturing. So in pursuing such ambitions what kind of challenges you see in that effort and also how these challenges can be addressed effectively and what is the IFC's goal approach in helping this kind of effort? Yes, thank you Dayun. That's a good question. And I think the challenges are multiple. The first one is infrastructure and it's the lack of infrastructure basically because what you need for processing, is energy and sometimes that is just not available or not at the right prices or not with the right sources. So we work and we see this as part of our role obviously it's not just mining. It's as I mentioned it's the global infrastructure surrounding the mining projects. So we have a large renewable energy practice for instance where we can work on power to mine solutions for new old mines and the processing facilities as well. So we work with energy companies and try to see how because obviously you cannot stop in mining operation or processing operation, right? You need a constant supply of energy. So it's not as simple as can be for other sectors and also sometimes frequently the projects are far away they're not connected to the grid. So how do you find those power sources or how do you find less emitting power sources for projects? As a recent example, we've provided a $100 million loan to NG Chile to decarbonize they agreed to switch from fossil fuel based power generation to renewable power generation through the installation of battery storage facilities. And that benefits directly the mining and metals sectors because the clients of NG Chile are mostly metals and mining companies. So this will allow them to decarbonize this will allow them to get a better supply of energy more reliable supply of energy. And because where I've seen we've also added some sustainable performance objectives. So there's an AKPI for reducing the emissions. There are also gender AKPI for that loan. So we try to accompany projects and mining whether it's mining or processing by allowing infrastructure solutions. It can also be water to mine solutions, desalination. It can be waste water treatment projects. It can be transport because transport is frequently an issue way less frequently an issue. So we work on that as well. And obviously we're also present in the whole value chain from metals batteries and working under one I've seen rather to provide solutions for the countries. And the other big challenge is obviously the geopolitical risks. And this is something I've mentioned in my presentation as a DFI we can invest in jurisdictions that commercial banks may find difficult or for centers that commercial banks may find difficult. So we help create markets in places where the private sector is constrained and by partnering with IFC private sector can provide finance to project that would otherwise not be bankable. And thank you, Ekaterina. Alongside many challenges you mentioned and about the kind of availability of the low emission power sources like this is one of the key aspects and also the decarbonizing the power grid is also one of the important levels to facilitate the development of the value chain. That's what I noticed. So now I think the current is back. So welcome back the current. So maybe I'm not going to screen again. So maybe the question about China. So China has been playing a very crucial role in driving demand growth for the communities in the past few decades and also the supply trend. And now the China's economy grows, the pace of growth is slowing down. Then what role can China play in driving this demand growth point forward? And also broadly some of the, what would be the, you mentioned about maybe some important argument about this. The other question is concerned about security supply but also China is also concerned about security supply. So could you also elaborate on that aspect a little bit and then how they might affect the market in the going forward? Yeah, thanks. So in terms of China, it's interesting. Energy transition is perhaps the first area of global industry where China has had the technological lead. And as Michael alluded to before, China's made the investment over the past couple of decades to have that technological lead. And there's now, if you want, using that, we're likely to see Chinese technology exported to a lot of the global south. I would expect over the coming period. So we're just, if we look at it, China's the sort of ridiculous amount of renewable energy capacity domestically this year, I think that will start to move overseas. As opposed from a geopolitical perspective, what we have seen over the past little while is China, if you want, flex its muscles a little bit more in terms of some of the restrictions we're seeing. Now it's not bands, but restrictions we're seeing on things like gallium and germanium and graphite. Just to say, well actually, hold on. If we are looking at a situation where markets are segmenting, we have, you need us for the global energy transition and China's going to play a hugely important role in this. If I think about, I mean, as I say, if I think about the demand trajectories, it's just, this will be global demand rather than just China demand for metals over the next 20 years, but I do still think that the Chinese technology and Chinese companies in many cases will lead the way. Thank you, Colin. So maybe now I invite back the Ekaterina and then Michael for the next questions. And indeed, the Great Committee on Summit in September, the IEA, the around 15 ministers and 40 CEOs scheduled to discuss about this topic. And then many themes, many topics were discussed, but one of the key themes about diverse funds, some mainstream refining and processing value chain where the level of concentration is greater. So the, you'll be about, what are some major challenges in mobilizing finance in this, the mainstream value chain in geopolitically diverse regions? And what is find some, the good project or less objective project when you make investment decisions and also how they can be, that change can be addressed. So this question I invite Michael and also Ekaterina to check in. Maybe Michael first. I think the answer is economics. Simple as that. I mean, let's look at Europe in terms of, you know, the auto industry and let's look at the consumer. You know, are they not buying Chinese cars because they're not ESG friendly or some rhetoric like that? No, they're very popular. They're going to be increasingly popular and they're cheap for the quality of product that people are getting. Now, ultimately that drives the whole supply chain. So if you want to encourage capacity to be built outside of China or even using non-Chinese technologies, you have to make it the product cheap enough and the investment returns high enough to incentivize private capital to do it. Now, the problem with that is that China and Chinese technologies have such a scale advantage. Even if the technology in a Western country is as good or better, the scale that they lack means that the cost of the product is invariably more expensive. And so, you know, who pays for that cost? Cost-impost, is that going to be the consumer? Is that governments? And is that even a good thing if we're putting a cost-impost on something that's aiding transition and accelerating transition? So, you know, I think we as a global community sometimes, you know, look at China as an element that we want to reduce. I mean, in some ways, we should be encouraging partnerships with Chinese companies, predominantly private companies, to accelerate transition and co-locate and co-own a number of the new facilities and capacity that comes on-stream rather than trying to isolate, you know, Chinese production, which has been hugely beneficial to transition thus far. Thank you, Michael. And the same question to Ekaterina, but there's also a question from the audience about the... What is being done currently in the world of sustainable finance technologies to support this mining and that kind of investment? So, you may touch upon this diverse fine-making by ministering, processing, refining operations, and also maybe can talk about some of your view about the sustainable finance technologies and region with the metal mining and that sort. Yes, thank you. So, I think Michael raised a number of valid points. There are economic reasons why the investment is reduced. There are also obviously reputational reasons because mining as an industry, I think, is suffering still. And just the Bible is so from a repetition that sometimes it's a bit challenging. And then there's less appetite for risk. But simply, investors don't flow to certain geographies, certain riskier projects because they don't have enough of a return or if speaking about commercial banks, they may not have enough limits for that either. So, what IFC does and obviously that's our role is working with investors, working with partners, working with governments to unlock private investment in a sustainable and environmentally sound way. So, that's not easy. That's identifying risks, helping the mining projects improve their social license to operate, helping improve their attractiveness. And also, we have a range of instruments. We can also provide blended finance solutions for instance. We can provide free advice and support to private companies trying to improve the impact of their mining or processing operations. Our role is helping mining projects and processing projects develop in emerging markets. And so, we use the array of instruments that we dispose of. And so, sustainability, obviously, it's a big topic. It's on everyone's lips. Look, I've mentioned the climate smart mining initiative. There are many others. It's a moving landscape but in which IFC is trying to stay relevant and supportive of the initiatives that would allow to improve the footprint of mining and metals operations. Thank you. So, then I may invite Mark to come to stage. We heard from the investors about the view but from company's perspective, and what kind of the major changes you face when seeking some financing for development of this project, especially in the diverse regions and how in your view, what can help address those changes? Thanks, Tae Yoon. So, as I think has been raised by a number of the different panelists, there are a number of challenges. Technology remains very dynamic and is not yet settled, which is both exciting but it can also lead to higher uncertainty and greater investment risk. As we've spoken about, the markets for many critical minerals are relatively small and very volatile, which I think Michael and others have mentioned can mean that financing for these minerals is particularly hard to secure. Another challenge for a company like Rio Tinto is that we don't look at every project in isolation and it's part of a portfolio of opportunities and unfortunately, or not surprisingly, there's not unlimited capital. So, we need to look at not only does it meet the relevant investment thresholds, but then also how does that stack up relatively speaking against other internal opportunities. There's a few different mitigations that can be undertaken to these challenges. You can mitigate by diversification across countries and regions, across different minerals and across different types of partners. This builds resiliency against geopolitical risks but also against other potential shot events back in September. You can also application, or which are not specific to a single type of technology. And then as everyone will know, many governments are becoming more active in their industrial policies with increasing opportunities for new partnership and new funding. So, for example, the government of Canada and the government of Quebec have been very significant supporters of our Scandium and other operations. I'll leave it there. Thank you, Mark. And maybe then my final question to Colin. So, in your slide, at the red slide, and on the right side, there's some chat about the recycling of the share of secondary supply across the US communities, and they all increased from today's level to certain levels by 2030. But one, if you get the past record, and share of secondary supply has remained relatively stable for most of these industrial matters. So, what drives the increase in secondary supply this year? And also, how the industry at the moment can do more to scale up this secondary supply or not the more pressure from the circular community? Sure. So, to answer the first question on the volume, that is more related to life cycle. I mean, effectively, as an analyst, we have to model Scrap as an elastic to a certain extent. And if you think of it, we've consumed a lot of metal in the past 20 years, much more than we did, I mean, in the previous 20. So, we're getting to the point now if we're particularly in China, given the consumption there, we should be seeing a lot more material come out of first use, and then come back as Scrap. So, it's a function of capital stock effectively, and we've been building that capital stock a lot over the past 20 years, and that should allow more Scrap to come through. In terms of the behavioural change and maximising that, yes, you can have policy-driven support, so, I suppose some of the prime examples are return of glass bottles or aluminium cans over time and encouraging the consumer to bring that back into the system. I think if we think a little bit more holistically, if we think of things like goods, if we think of durable and capital goods, I think these will be leased, and I think the manufacturer will start to own them a lot more through life cycle, so they will lease them to the consumer, or whether that be a manufacturer or an end customer, and we'll take that back at the end of life cycle to keep it in a closed loop, so it means for the metals and mining industry, we'll use material supplier, and you may use some virgin raw materials, but you may also reprocess the Scrap that comes out. I mean, and also if we think of the culture that we have, I'm going to use the example of just a simple washing machine. We all, and certainly in the developed world, have access to washing machines. The drum in that washing machine never wears out. It can be reused time and time again, so it comes down to design to be able to reuse old bits of equipment. The electronics will wear out, maybe some of the paneling will wear out, but the actual drum, which is a key part of the component, can actually be used again. So I think if we move towards more models of leasing for people, as I say, own scope 3 and own carbon emissions through life cycle, that will actually encourage better behaviour. Just one last thing very quickly I wanted to highlight. The one area where we're not circular or tall at the moment is buildings. When we build real estate, we think about how it gets reused. There's a lot of efficiencies that can actually be made from a couple of areas. Number one, just designing for deconstruction. Secondly, and maybe this is a little bit more controversial, our standards for building are based on the quality of materials that were used 40, 50 years ago when these standards were set up. The quality of the material we produce now, for example, steel, for example, is much higher. You could argue we're building in a lot of inefficiency into our construction from using standards that are outdated. It would take a big change, but I think over time that actually reduces the material needs. So it's not around the circular behaviour, it's just around reducing the material needs. So I just think it's something that should be thought about. Thank you. Thank you, Collin. It's very interesting that the materials that have been consumed in the past decade especially on the super cycle of commodity demand, and that means that we might expect more supply coming to the market in the coming years and then it highlights the importance of the putting into systems to unlock that potential. And also the comment about the role of the material suppliers and also building is well taken. So now we are getting some audience questions. So my colleague Eric has been monitoring this Q&A box very diligently. Can you pick some good questions and then ask one of the panelists. Yes, one of the questions we've received flags recent news that some mine suppliers are planning to ask for price premiums for a bit more diversified supplies. Possibly one of the advantages would be maybe higher consistency. And the questions we have is a price premium for diversified supply realistic and also what traceability mechanism would be required or for prices to diverge on that side. Maybe the question would be addressed to Michael. Difficult question. I mean it's the trillion dollar question you know who pays the premium how do you measure it. A good example is aluminium into Europe and the taxonomy there which is effectively you pay a tax on carbon if it's carbon intensive the production of it. Which is a very good way of doing it and it's effective it can be effective in aluminium because of the certain things with aluminium but in many other commodities it's very very hard. I mean how do you assess a car coming into the US for example how do you assess a mobile phone how does that get big enough and how does the consumer end up paying the price premium. So I think that's it's very difficult but it sounds good in theory so there'll be a lot of rhetoric about green premium and then a premium for diversified supply and I think there will be to some extent but not enough of a premium to dramatically alter where materials are produced and mind in my view. If I can if I can add to Michael's comments I mean the word premium itself is a challenge because you're implicitly saying to consumer you have to pay more it's very hard for any consumer to think about green premiums haven't really worked. I mean there has been certain instances where we have seen them be successful for low carbon material but they haven't become as mainstream as quickly as may have been anticipated that's why if we go back to what I presented in my slides I did talk about this potential qualification I think it's very hard to say to the consumer you have to pay a premium but I do think you can say to consumers you have to source best practice material and that will need traceability to the point of the question and it will need we'll probably need some third party auditing as I say to make every side confront otherwise you end up tied up in box ticking rather than actually getting a practical advantage so it's a challenging one but I do think we might move it more being a qualification rather than a premium. If we think about it we have ISO standards for quality for environmental control ISO 9001, 14001 these are qualifications and in many value chains you have to have those qualifications to be able to supply into them. This is the prime example where that could actually come in to Crisco Minerals. Thank you Corrine the argument about this qualification rather than premium is very interesting then Eric do you have another question from the Korean ambassador yeah maybe a question to Mark so one of the questions points out that companies and governments have to be increasingly confronted with some geopolitical risks do you have any examples of good practice out there to deal with those challenges thank you for the question I think we also need to remember that geopolitical tensions and issues of supply chain resiliency are not new notwithstanding the very significant increase in focus over over recent years so a good example of this is how Japan has sought to secure supplies of minerals to support their industrial interests for many decades with its state and private bodies working in tandem an example of that type of investment was Japan's investments and interest in Rio Tinto's iron ore operations in the Pilbara in western Australia over many decades and while the Japanese structuring might not be able to be replicated fully in other jurisdictions or in other contexts there is certainly a lot to be learned from the Japanese approach so I think that's something that people should be mindful of and certainly asking questions thank you Mark are there any questions from the family box Eric I think we've covered most of the topics that are raised right now maybe there's a question on market penetration of secondary resources for Cobalt, Lithium and Nickel and maybe Colin has a few comments on that one so maybe a few examples on where we are going in terms of secondary resources and how that can supply the market and so specific to the battery materials there so Lithium and Cobalt and Nickel of course we haven't built the capital stock so my argument around secondary material I mean is that when you built a capital stock now it's interesting I use the example on that side of lead lead is a perfect circular economy the auto industry gets 99% of the lead back that it uses in batteries so it's well set up actually to be able to get material through or of course we have though is a couple of challenges on that secondary material side say no capital stock but also quite honestly the value of secondary materials isn't great at the moment and if we look at it I mean Cobalt is the most valuable metal there but we've seen a trend towards thrifting Cobalt from these batteries so moving towards lower Cobalt technologies that doesn't help the economics of recycling I think we will see a lot more reuse particularly of Lithium and phosphate technology and things like secondary storage and telecommunication tower backup power sources I fully believe that we will get to a proper circular economy but it will take that capital stock to be built and it will take the economies of scale of batteries coming to end the first life before we get that through until then most of the the recycled material in Lithium and Cobalt will be coming from in process manufacturing scrap but that should allow some of these processes to optimize the technologies first so it's going to be a huge growth area but it's probably a growth area for the next decade rather than the one for the next five years or so and thank you Colin that was very interesting and then maybe now final question to Ekaterina so you presented about this climate smart mining the framework in your presentation and then also some you developed to decarbonize nickel and copper operations so how do those frameworks incorporate in your investment decisions in other words how you take into account those climate smart mining initiatives and also the DSE consideration in your investment decisions thank you yes so the EEG is obviously very important but then we are not our goal is not to find the perfect net zero mine in a country that needs support that doesn't exist our goal is to accompany mining and metals clients in helping them secure financing and investment but also in helping them improve the footprint of their operation their social license to operate so we work with companies we have different teams that can support them on different topics these are not investment teams they are internal advisory teams with experts on climate, with experts on gender with experts on community relations for instance and we can help mining companies not only to reach compliance with equator principles which is something that everyone is supposed to be doing also if they wish so to move a little bit beyond the street compliance with EPs to something more and frequently this is very much in line with what the mining companies are also looking for because they realize that without community support for the project without improvement with the environmental and emissions footprint for a new project without the bathroom improvement at least this is going to penalize them and it's going to penalize the miners it's going to penalize the company so the clients we work with a very understanding of the challenges but also the opportunities that are offered by the easy aspects of their operations Thank you very much for your time now the time is up I concluded today's webinar thank you for attending joining this webinar and this very illuminating session and it was excellent this webinar will be recorded and posted on our website and also there will be the second part of the webinar on the 21st of November on the nexus of the environment and social considerations we would like to invite you to visit the IA website to register for the second part of the webinar it was actually excellent great to learn about speakers for that session so thank you again for joining and then have a nice evening for today, thank you Thank you very much