 Good evening, and welcome to episode 399 of the Private Property Podcast. I'm your host, Usamantama Kamalo. Just one episode away from 400, and we know that you couldn't have done it without you at home. Well, if you join us for the first time, you may start on some incredible shows. Do make sure that you go to our Facebook, YouTube, Spotify, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts to certainly catch up on all the awesome episodes that you have missed out on. And all our regular viewers on Facebook, on Instagram, and on YouTube, welcome to it. You know how we do. Every single weekday, you and I have an appointment at 7 p.m. We're always in conversation with a property expert who helps us make big property decisions. It doesn't matter where you are on your property journey, whether you're looking to buy, to sell, to build, you're renting, you're looking, you're a landlord, we're certainly here to help you along in your property needs. And talking about helping you along in your property needs, whether you're, of course, in the market, or just looking to get a good sense of what some of the properties are out there, you can tune into the Home Shoppers show that comes to your screens every single Monday and Friday at 8 p.m., which takes you through exquisite properties that you can find on www.privatepotty.co.za. And on Tuesdays and Thursdays, Malinogov brings you the farming podcast tackling all things agriculture. I'm already using some of the tips that she's had on some of the shows for your home garden, and also doing my own gardening at home. Spinach is coming along nicely. My onions, I've given up on onions. Garlic is coming on nicely. The basil is coming on nicely. The beads are also coming on nicely. And I saw a cabbage that's slowly coming up. So I'm quite excited to see and, of course, monitor those developments in the coming weeks. And to get some of those tips and insights, and to also get you started on your farming journey, or simply your gardening journey, make sure that you tune into the farming podcast. And on Wednesdays, Estee Cranston brings you the first time home buyer show. She's always in conversation with people who bought that first time home buyer journey and have gone on to grow their property portfolios from strength to strength. Well, those are the great shows that every single weekday at 8 p.m., that you can look forward to right here across private parties, social media pages. Do make sure that you follow us across the various social media pages where we're on. We're on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, YouTube. You can find us on LinkedIn, as well as on TikTok. You can follow myself as I'm doing an underscore K on Twitter, as well as on Instagram. Well, to kick start our Monday edition of the private property podcast, I hope you stayed safe this weekend. We are seeing the rise in the COVID numbers, especially in Jovic. And I think the one big thing is that some people are trying to rebrand it as a new flu or beard flu. Just make sure that you're staying safe. I think rather air on the side of the portion as much as possible, as much as many of us are vaccinated. We also want to make sure that we don't catch it, right? I think that's the thing that we want to make sure we do not do. That's exactly why we're always here to keep you company along on your journey. And when it comes to keeping you company this evening, we're going to be looking at how landlords can attract occupiers in a post-pandemic world. And I don't even know if we're getting to talk about a post-pandemic world at this stage. I think what we can talk about is how we are creating hybrid work environments and, of course, want to make sure that we are catering to that. And to help us better understand and unpack this topic, I'm joined by Maggie Weber, who's the Head of Digital Design at Tetris in South Africa. Maggie, good evening and thank you so much for joining us. Hi, Summer. Thanks for having me. It's such a pleasure to have you with us on the show, I think before we even look at how landlords can do this, because I know people at home are thinking, oh, gosh, how are we talking post-pandemic when we are literally walking into a fourth wave? We're in the fourth wave right now, especially if we're in Khau Deng, as much as the alert level hasn't changed. We know very well that we are well in a fourth wave. And a lot of us are already anxious because we already know that Christmas and New Year's Eve are probably going to be on a stricter level, living in stricter levels in Khau Deng and probably going to end up having another indoor New Year's Eve, which I know nobody wants. But before we even explore that, I think first, perhaps share with the views of home, some of the trends that you've certainly picked up in this COVID era and how they've been fundamentally different from the pre-COVID era that we were, that I know many of us absolutely missed. So I think two things really come to mind when speaking about, obviously, within the pandemic and then looking forward to trends as we're lifted from the pandemic in some ways. And I think the first one is sustainability where that's become hugely important. It always was important, but in terms of bringing people back to the office and designing in a way that's comfortable for everyone. Sustainability is not just about hanging a plant for well-being in the office. It's really about creating a space which is inclusive and which allows you to do your tasks well. And then obviously with a major impact on the planet and well-being. So that's pretty huge in terms of what we've seen. And then the other thing would be the return to the office and the desire to be in the office, where the office spaces are home away from home in a way that they maybe have never needed to be, where they've become actually a sanctuary and a space where you can really work effectively and then go home and actually have that distinct switch-off time. So in terms of trends, I would say that those are the main ones. The sustainability overarching from within the pandemic now coming out of it. And then the return to the office being the one that we're seeing more prevalently and hoping to see much more even 2022. And you know, Maggie, when we talk about the return to the office, I know one of the key things that we're going to have to be mindful now more than in sort of a pre-COVID era is design of the office, how an office is actually designed. And I think beyond COVID we already know that a lot of scientists have said that we're going to live through another pandemic. And so if anything COVID in many ways is kind of a dress rehearsal for what may potentially come. So when we look at the importance of design, especially of course in the office context and knowing that not every kind of business would land itself to remote working. And others as you say, there are people who are mindful of working from home and want the flexibility of having a hybrid type model. How does design then come into place when we're looking at designing for a world where we're now very mindful of sitting too close to colleagues? I mean, we've just come out of the era of open plans and even have cubicles. We absolutely hated that. And now we kind of have to rethink because we can't be sitting, we're not that close to our colleagues at work. So how does design then come in in sort of helping us transition back into the office given our new fears more than anything? I hear you. And I think, yeah, I mean, it seems counterintuitive because we're distancing ourselves, but actually it's all about people. And so for us, I think to make the transition smoother as well as being safe, that's absolutely fundamental to the design and the expertise that we bring along to the space, not only to make it comfortable and look a certain way, but also to make it a safe space to be. And so for us, it's about engaging with and having the know-how to give our clients what they need to live, to work, to play effectively. It allows us to adopt a holistic approach by really listening to our clients and then creating an environment which provides this. So I suppose for us transitioning by looking into a workplace strategy, which is a massive part of what we do, alongside sustainability requirements and then regulations, we have the opportunity to design spaces which promote a safe working environment as well as one that's inviting. Like I said before, it's transitioning to a space you actually want to be in, you feel safe in, and it's kind of bringing you back together, regardless of hybrid and whether you're working in rotation to keep yourselves at a comfortable capacity of people. But design is definitely the vehicle to get you back into the office in a safe way. And I can see some of the love that we're getting on our Facebook page for our NSDK watching, Happiness Manila watching, Fatima Sadyen also watching, and taking our questions and comments this evening as we're looking at how landlords can attract occupiers in a post-pandemic world. And of course we are looking specifically at the office context and looking really at what commercial landlords or office landlords, what they can do to better attract tenants for their respective units. Because I think we sometimes understand, we probably underestimate how much work it requires to get a commercial tenant, even if you've for instance got a relatively small office and have a few units, you have to be able to offer different kinds of packages. And I think now more than ever, you actually have to be able to adapt to the needs of the respective businesses that are going to be in your office park. And taking some of those comments and questions, I see Matashiman is saying here, are employers willing or can afford to redesign their office spaces? I think that's such an important one. I mean people are already so financially strained, are there financial means for them to be able to redesign to some degree the offices in such a way that it doesn't obviously create an unsafe working environment given the COVID context that we now have to work under? So I'll answer the question first. Absolutely and that's why I would say that design is so multifaceted and it's really not about the curtains and the scatter cushions. It's really delving into the requirements as I was speaking about and for us, it's the full engagement of workplace strategy. So that would be working with your current assets, your current headcount with our space planners and workplace strategists to specialise their expertise in doing exactly that and making this new way of working possible. It doesn't matter whether you're in a small office or a bigger office and it's about education of different ways of working. So if you've got a financial constraint then maybe looking to a rotation-based model where I would sit at a desk some days of the week, then you would sit on that desk on the other days of the week so that we both have the opportunity to be in the office at certain points but then you're not having to buy two desks for one person or you can reconfigure in a safe way so that you're spaced apart enough that you don't have the same amount of people within the office. So that's a lot of what we deal with as much as we do with what looks beautiful and all the acoustics and everything else that goes into fit out, definitely the user experience is the most important thing and how you're going to function. And that's just a crucial one that because now you know longer looking at perhaps if you have a staff complement of 50 ensuring that all 50 have to have a desk indicator into having them all at work at the same time because I mean the fact that we'd all come in at work around about 839 and leave relatively the same time and don't have a staggered approach to how you know how we get to the office and not just for purposes of you know the office environment itself but even for the purposes of traffic I think the fact that we're not doing this at scale as a country is partly why some people end up getting stuck in traffic for such an extended period of time and we're now back to getting stuck in traffic unfortunately with so many people being back at home. Well what are the things that we're going to do we're going to go for a quick break see who the lucky winner of the competition that we are running is of course that's the competition where we want to find out from you some of the expensive advice that you have learned while watching the show we need 400 episodes in so there's quite a lot of advice that I'm sure you've already picked up on do share with us what that advice has been and you certainly do stand a chance of walking away with 500 rand in cash every single evening. My colleague I think I'm waiting for him to let me know how much we've got in the money bag I know we had a rollover on Friday so I'm not sure whether we've got a thousand rands or the thousand five hundred rands in the money bag and of course that is the amount that the lucky winner is going to walk away with. Well let's have a look at who this evening's a lucky winner is and that lucky winner this evening is no name or term congratulations to you you walk away I've been told we're actually back at five hundred rand so the winner on Friday did in fact claim the prize so five hundred rand is yours this evening learning good and all you have to do to get that money is of course drop us a message down here below I did see a post from learning her checking in early I hope she's still watching us live and if she is do drop us a message and of course you will walk away with that cash prize. Continuing with our conversation this evening with Maggie Whitster who's a head of digital design at Tetris South Africa looking at how landlords can attract occupiers in a close pandemic world taking your questions and comments and we've got a great one here coming through from Prince Jones my mother was asking what can I do to attract clients to small holding to small holding with office space and storage space of factory space a lot of people want to be visible next to highways and busy complexes and I think this is a this is such a great question because the reality of office space Maggie is it's in different kinds of environments so it isn't just one environment that is you know essentially close to the freeway but of course there are office parks that we've seen that are you know slightly more suburban slightly more inland so they're not as you know close to the major freeways or some of the major roads so how do you attract clientele in those kinds of you know office environments or certainly those industrial parks where there's also an industrial park and I see there's also a storage facility in that particular complex so my colleagues at JLL actually have a bit expertise in that part of you know the brokerage deals and in that part of this game so I suppose what I can answer in terms of design would be that the amenities or the surrounding the surrounding environment so I suppose on the small holding maybe it's slightly more remote and that could be a pro if that means that the you know you're not in the hustle and bustle so maybe you're not getting the advertising or the you know as people drive by they're not seeing you but in terms of people who want to work in a space that's not so good I suppose they could be pros and cons to both then it would be about the tenants experience as they work would be my answer to how you would get people to engage with that space and I think one of the things that we'll definitely do Maggie is you know invite one of your colleagues at JLL I mean a really great firm international and they really are the best people to be able to answer those kinds of questions when it comes to increasing visibility I think to to to a point that we're making earlier important thing of also pointing out different amenities because you also understand that from a budget perspective not everybody can afford some of the offices that are closer to you know the freeways and so what are you offering at that particular price point and given of course you know the various amenities that you can certainly have in your respective office park and and I think when we then you look at this particular one you know Maggie how what are some of sort of the best practices or how can landlords office landlords use inclusive design to expand you know their business value because I think this speaks to what is the business value how can you incorporate then design to you know almost add to what your value proposition is as a landlord so there's two ways to answer this so obviously from a landlord perspective and then from a tenant perspective so as a landlord the amenities and the you would offer as part of your building is not important so whether you have amenities within the building or if you have restaurants and gyms in surrounding areas that becomes really important you know initiatives where you're close to public transport so it gives people the ability to live work and play in one location so it shows a more it gives you more flexibility as the end user in terms of an occupier inclusive design speaks directly to talent retention so attracting a diverse work for gain engagement for staff who in turn would provide then broader insights into the clients of our clients and their business so I suppose that really speaks to driving productivity by designing inclusively it's really as important as we begin particularly to understand your diversity more and more and designing spaces so whether you're hypersensitive or hypersensitive there's a space for you to work effectively so that's how we we design as an exclusively extremely important for the business's productivity you know Maggie we reflected a bit about some of the trends in in the year that was nearly two years and past 18 months I think are there any design elements or certain design trends that you should be aware of in the built environment going into the new year so I know I've spoken about sustainability and I thought it was just important to share that you know you've touched on what draws people what draws investors what draws tenants and part of the research that we've done it shows that up to 73 percent of investors say that green strategies lead to higher occupancy higher range higher tenant retention and overall higher value so although I've touched on it for us absolutely it's definitely the biggest trend that's going forward and it's multifaceted in terms of sustainability of how you build how you design the choices you make the community initiatives circular economy in the local artisans that the local providers so it trains to for us it's a trend to local is lack of community and connection above all so how do we become both human in a distant world I am this evening this evening in conversation with Maggie Weber who is the head of digital design at Tetris South Africa and looking at how landlords can attract occupies in a post-pandemic world and we're taking your questions and comments this evening Menzi Bhutilesi saying I think some of the commercial property tenants should have a booking system for people that want to come into the office limited to the seats available but limited to covert compliance and landlords can enable this system and I think you know this is this is probably then the moment when I hear when I read a comment like this we're already just thinking of the we works of this world and and I think that that service is already there for the most part and it's it's got its own I think ups and downs any comment on that particular one maybe so we have moved from you know typically only be able to book out meeting rooms and definitely to book to desk booking systems so if you're looking at a much larger client who are multiple floors it's extremely important to have a desk booking system so you can see okay there's availability for me to work in these certain areas and you don't have to walk around the building a hundred times and go into different zones and touch things where you don't necessarily have to so desk booking is a real thing both within co-working environments as well as established clients who are taking up buildings with multiple floors and I think that if anything that that isn't an option available for you know people in some of these suburban areas where we already see that we work the workshop 27th you reaches and the likes you know very big players who are really doing that perhaps in areas where we don't see those kinds of services I think there's certainly an untapped opportunity there I haven't seen those kinds of opportunities for instance in townships and the reality is people want to be able to access those office amenities in those you know spaces and if you look at a township as a way to you would want to be able to to have an office type setup and not and not have to go all the way to Sainton or Rosebank in order to be able to access them and Prince Mazmuga are saying you know office sharing is there any design trends one should follow or consider to attract small SMMEs I mean any any and I know that this isn't quite your area of expertise but certainly from a design perspective what are some of the pressure points from you know SMMEs where if you had to you know tweak certain design components when you have an office space they certainly be attracted to your particular party so that's a that's a great question and I think flexibility here is key so to move away from what we see as a works workspace just being a desk maybe it's a work cafe maybe it's a local barista who then has a corner of his coffee shop which is for for working so maybe it's a quiet area in a coffee shop maybe it's a standing a standing environment where you don't have a chair um perhaps you're sitting with two people in a meeting room and as opposed to being desk based for the whole day and that's how you do your work day so I think it's about challenging ourselves to be flexible in sitting maybe we're not sitting maybe we're standing maybe we're as I said at a coffee shop so and to kind of forgo the traditional working desk rather for a space where you can do your task effectively and Maggie final question from my side I mean if you're looking to buy or perhaps you're an investor you're looking for you know off to add office as part of your property portfolio what are some of the key things that you should be aware of and certainly look out for so I suppose if you are looking to invest in a property and you for a space which would get tenants um the you would be looking for also a building which has potential for multifunctional spaces so there's definitely a trend towards um even if there are various tenants in a building to have a common um a common space that can be shared so you don't have four canteens and four waiting areas for clients where you share maybe a main reception and a work cafe so I think the potential for that and also again to look at spaces in a different way so maybe it's a space where you could there's a residential aspect a retail aspect as well as a corporate um as a corporate office um offering so kind of having those multifunctions in one building or the potential to have that would definitely attract people Maggie we are going to leave it there this evening it's been such an insightful conversation I think we're really good perspective for those who are looking to go into office we do a lot of conversations around frezzy and a bit on commercial but certainly from an office perspective we need to start thinking about that especially for the investors who may want to add this to their property portfolio Maggie thank you so much for joining us this evening it's been such a pleasure to have you with us thank you for the opportunity I love speaking to you Zama it's been such a pleasure and that is Maggie Weber who is the head of digital design at Tetris to South Africa uh wrapping up the Monday edition of the private property podcast with myself was a man don't walk a malo and unfortunately we're going to have a roll over to tomorrow evening one link will tell was not watching us and I know that she was watching earlier because she actually dropped a message to say hello but she didn't watch uh when her name came up and of course when we needed her to claim that prize and this is why you need to watch throughout the whole show because if we call your name then you need to so text us while the show is on for myself as a man don't walk around there is so the team has been a pleasure to be with you this evening tomorrow is celebrating episode 400 we're going to have a great episode and certainly also just reflect a little bit that we already we've planned something special later on I'm not going to give away too much so tomorrow show is going to be relatively normal but of course you know 400 is a bit of a milestone that many podcasts in the country that get to that figure so thank you very much of hope for ensuring that to be gotten there and of course we're going to get to higher and higher heights as we move along well that's it from us of course do stay tuned for the home shopper show with Chad at 8 p.m. until then stay cooking you're staying cool and staying safe