 The military base comes under attack in Borno state and reports say Boca ran members who disguised as soldiers overran the base. Apologies, we're actually talking about regional security this morning and we know that there are more security outfits that are springing up in Nigeria and other regions clamoring for their own regional security. We're now speaking with our guest to help us make sense of the security situation in Nigeria and just how much regional security outfits can do to tackle this very dicey situation. And our guest, good morning, thanks for joining us. Thank you for having me. I'll guest this morning, Mr. Mike for the former director of SSS. Yes thanks for being here. I want us to first start with the general look of things regarding security in Nigeria. We know that several regions, towns, communities have been setting up security outfits to protect their domains. We know there's the Western Nigeria security network, there's the Amotecum. It's well known right now and there's a recently formed, it will be Agu of the Southeast is another group. So do you think really that this is the way to go? Well I think it is way to go because from all indications it does appear that we have security challenges and our security agencies are actually overwhelmed. So most of the problems are local. So since they are local, they also need local solutions. By that I mean that all these regional security outfits need to be easier for them to collaborate and cooperate, you know, with the need to tackling the problem because they are in fact closer to the people and they know the terrain. So I think it's going to help. All right, let's also try and understand what roles exactly they would play. Amotecum, the Abu-Biago now that we're talking about in the Southeast and of course it's very likely that more will spring up as time passes. What role exactly are they meant to play? Information gathering or fighting directly with security threats across the country? Yes, they will provide information for the actionable agencies like the police and the SSS, give them information on the equipment they will use in tackling the problem. They know the criminals within the society but because of fear of repressor and possible loss of confidence in the police, because of what is ongoing, don't forget that the police is part of Nigeria, people by Nigerians. So we need to build this confidence among the people within the security forces so that they can have a way of reaching out to the police. So I believe majorly that the indigenous community members call it community police and call it local police in the interim since we have not been able to amend our constitution to possibly establish the state police. As a stop graph, I think they will play a major role in ensuring security of the area. Okay, would you agree with those who are saying that the call and clamor for regional security shows that the federal security has failed? I wouldn't say it's failed but I think they are overwhelmed because of the enormous challenges we are facing, lack of manpower, lack of funding, underfunding if you may like, and of the police. That confidence, you see, like I was in the southeast during the Easter period and I can tell you that virtually all communities now have their own vigilante groups taking care of the responsibility of it. I hardly can see any problem for the recent ups and insolvency in attack on government facilities like the correctional facility, the Nigerian police and most recently the residents of the government. And this calls for a real worry, I can tell you because this is just too much for us to bear. You go to the southeast, you have challenges of cessation, agitation, you go to the southwest, you are talking of agitation, you go to the northeast, we are contending with insolvency, you go to northwest and north-central, we are contending with kidnapping and all the challenges. So there's no part of the country that even free from any problem now. In the interim, before maybe the constitution is amended that now recognizes the security outfits and gives them full legality to perform their duties, is there ways that you feel like Nigeria's security infrastructure, architecture as it stands, can be better positioned or be more strategic in able to achieve a safer Nigeria? Remember there's still the NSCDC, a lot of Nigerians are not really sure exactly what role they play in the space of all of this. Well you see the security architecture as it is now cannot contend with our security challenges. By that I mean that we need to restructure in the interim, like I said when we started pending the creation of state police, which a lot of people have objected to apprehension like to the abuse and are asked, is there any, is there any, with the present Nigeria police, this is not going to happen, are they established to begin to protect individuals and people of questionable character here to see them providing security for people who have no possessiveness of livelihood and is that not an abuse? So if there's no abuse, there won't be any law. So people arguing that when the state police is established they're going to have abuse. I think that does not hold water because the way it is now, unless we localize the solutions to our security challenges, which are local, because why are you always emphasized on this? If you go to the North East and begin to look for ways of stopping kidnapping that is not preventing there or apply the solution of agitation to go and solve other issues of kidnapping. It doesn't make any sense. So the point I'm making is that each geopolitical zone has its own peculiar problems which will also require peculiar solutions to tackle. So that's why I encourage that for now the issue of regional cooperation, not regional police now as we people say, regional cooperation in terms of security among the states should be encouraged. Now you look at Amotecos you see the establishment of Amotecos. If there's no society without a crime and you see that there's a reduction in terms of a commission of crime within the Southwest because it cannot be completely wiped out. There's a reduction because of the cooperation within the states because there was a legal framework in which all these groups were established and they begin to unlike what we have in the South East. You know there was another Eastern security network set up by iPhone which is illegal even though they are not visible. They have not provided any security to the best of my knowledge followed by the establishment of a blog by the South East Governors. And I ask before the establishment of this South East security network what was the legal framework? Have the states meant to say yes we are establishing this this is how we're going to provide logistics. Where are the vehicles? Where are the logistics being provided? So this raises a lot of questions. Ordinaryly the concept is very good and it should be encouraged. But for now I think the legal framework especially in the South should be put in place to ensure that we have these issues resolved. So Miss Adria, I thought we do understand your point you're saying these are local security challenges and they should be dealt with a local problem or a local approach and that the federal security architecture is overwhelmed. But would you consider the you know perspectives of others like Nigeria's you know former ambassador to the UN professor Ibrahim Gamberi who thinks that regional security outfits would break up Nigeria and cause disintegration. He's also saying that you know security problems should be looked at from the prism of you know national interest rather than regional ones. Nobody is interested in the breakup of the country. I for one I have no other country I'm a Nigerian I don't believe in secession. So if you establish a regional security network I don't think that will lead to breakup of the country. So I completely disagree with that notion that when you form a regional security network it will lead to the breakup of the country. There's no way it can. But you see again that there is this challenge everybody is clamoring for restructuring. Let us practice through federalism and that will reduce tension. You see most of the problems being generated are political. More than 80 percent let me not put it on the heart. At least more than 70 percent of our security challenges are politically generated and we cannot continue this way. In the next few years now 2023 by the corner politicians will start talking about campaigns and all this and it's going to exacerbate and compound the problems on ground. So that is why it is very very important that we also look at the issue of restructuring this country. Let us practice through federalism. And something we will tell you that people who are opposed to restructuring is that some of the states are not viable and that is that is not true. It is not true. There is no state in this country that can not survive of this. So especially when they look in words. But the problem is that as something they call it the student bottle policy that at the end of the month everybody will rush to Abuja and they rush to Abuja for a location and they come back and share this location. We have this simple infrastructure. Nothing to shoot for it. And I will still wait for the end of the month again for them to come and pay again. So that is a major problem. I can tell you that even states like Zafala now for instance is having some crisis. They have gold. They can explore this and pay tax to the center. But what we are practicing in federalism which we think we are practicing which is not true federalism is that the federal government will not take the chunk of the money and this go to the states. The reverse should have been the case that the states should be ready for and pay tax to the center. Okay. Mr. Agia for apologies to button. I would like us to discuss extensively on the whole issue of restructuring regarding security in Nigeria and her own internal development. But the earlier question I asked was because you say that you are not for the breakup of Nigeria cessation but we know the agitations of groups like you know high pop of you know massive you know how they want a separate Nigerian state of Biafra. The concern of many regarding politics is that when they grant or they allow you know these groups to have a separate security network is one step basically into you know breaking out. I mean that's basically the concern here. See this I think we should get all this right. What are the what are the grievances high pop for instance? What are they asking for? To them they have this perceived injustices in equality and the unfair treatment in distribution of offices. But if those issues are addressed but what we see now is that instead of addressing the issues they are further compounded. Government has opportunity to address these issues and once we begin to address these issues nobody will be talking about if everybody is treated equally with fairness and justice. I don't think anybody will be asking for the separatist government. Like in the South East for instance I continue to give the South East because that is where high pop operates. It's not everybody in the South East that's advocating for Biafra but if you look among the elites they'll be whispering among themselves yes well what where high pop is doing is not good but the government should also look so that shows you that there is there are grievances that needs to be addressed. So I think when you do all this by the time government you see what we have a contestant version nations of contestant version look at areas of this content and address them issues of unemployment you look at I'm not saying government can employ everybody it's not possible because even if you get everybody employed some people will still be involved in crimes some are just poor criminals there's nothing you can do to prevent them from there. I was just going to the social media this morning and I asked is there any justifiable reason why somebody should kill his niece pluck out the ice cut out the thongs and then replace because you want to to me this doesn't make sense you know we have lost our value so when you get these values restored restored there are people who start thinking like some of us are thinking like animals now because of the harsh economic condition. Yeah every society of course has you know their own fair share of those type of elements. Michael Jaffer you're from a director at the SSS you have also I believe have extensive information and knowledge of what's going on in the south is a lot of people have been bothered lately with you know the events in the south is security wise. We've also heard about issues in northern Nigeria, Barneau State, UBA state, in the middle belt and all of that. What worries you the most with where Nigeria is today and do you genuinely feel that the setting up of security outfits in different regions will be the answer with the reality of what we're dealing with in Nigeria today because it's not just about secessionists there are those who don't want to leave Nigeria per se but they want their own Islamic state there are those who are kidnapping there are those who are bandits there are those who are just killers and it's spread across the whole country. So what scares you or worries you the most of our current situation? Well what worries me the most is the issue of kidnapping for ransom especially in the north west and the in fact there's one there's no particular one that worries me the most who have a lot of causes for worry. Look at Barneau for instance we've been fighting insolvency for the past college terrorism for the past two years you come to south east these are the situation now which is going to armed struggle and my worry in the south is that in 2017 I won't on the consequences of prescribing the iphone when iphone was prescribed so the government can even initiate some action now it's the government that went to court government can also see some of some come up pardon to say where the iphone assure the government that they are not going to violate a case and let us come to table there's no problem without a solution so I think we begin to address but the major major problems that I feel is most worrying now is the so that the so they see in the north east the kidnapping for banditry in the north central under of recent the agitation in the south is which is going to out there but but it has it has never been on the level that we are seeing it today um do you feel that if we don't as a nation start to do the right things and that's from the presidency and the current Nigerian government if we don't start to do the right things in Nigeria every year we're going to hear of a new security outfit and we're going to have this same conversation next year because it's it's it's I don't I don't know but it is our problem the lack of security outfits all the the lack of an actual system that is functional and that is working for Nigeria a combination of all of them who have this functional security network because of lack of funding but if we talk of lack of funding again the question is has government provided sufficiently for the security agency the answer is no but government has tried to who must comment government by also trying to see the more they can assist uh security agency there it's not only in secreting uh sector that government should be facing but if you know that we must set our priorities right because without security there won't be any meaningful development you can leave your house and go to when there's no security or you don't provide food in your house and expect your your children to begin to say daddy welcome you are just to give you example so the issue is the money that is provided at times when you sit down to ask yourself in your family you have provided money for this how was this spent what did you buy that brings me to the issue of oversight the money provided for by government to security agencies have they been audited have they been used the way they were supposed to be used so these are questions you cannot be blaming government every time that government has not provided sufficiently when the money provided have been diverted well it's still it's still it's still the fault of government that we've not been able to identify those divers in these funds you know regardless of you know who takes the money or you know I had this you know conversation earlier that we've had a decade of funding and budgeting and allocating money for to fighting security we've not been able to have an honest conversation on what these funds have been used for why we still have soldiers complaining of lack of weapons when we hear of billions every year been allocated for security it's still the failure of government I believe that we've not been able to investigate properly you know mismanagement of funds for security isn't it I agree with you completely because the you look at the meeting for family staff was a national assembly and it was asked some questions and they started by saying that it should invite the media party for family staff to give account in a normal situation I don't blame me though but in normal situation he should have been able to look through his records to say give me time at least he was given a formal letter of invitation to say you are coming to him he looked into his records but because all this is that should get his secrecy he cannot give account so the only person who can give account is the person who was on seat at that time and government is about continuity this government accused the previous government of mismanagement you remember the issue of the armed deal 12 2.7 million a billion dollars above that deal which the previous government was accused of using for the campaign and what have we seen today billions are also going down the drain and who have a anti-corruption agency what are they doing about it all right Mr assembly what is the national assembly apologies to what's in here but just before we just before we go I wanted to get your thoughts on this security outfits let's assume you know they fly what should be you know the operations the modus operandi be regarding the security agencies should they be allowed to carry arms we had this discussion with amotec should they be allowed to carry arms or would they just you know provide you know intelligence for you know the police and we also saw situations where you know the amoteco was alleged to have you know killed some people so all these other considerations about you know how violence might even become on the rise when these people carry arms you know in the community what do you what do you say about that please well you see virtually all the vigilante the community police the regional police tell us but the difference is that they don't use to imitate fire arms some of them use these form actions private that are licensed if they are allowed to carry that well to some extent they should collaborate with the police to give proper training or handling of fire arms when to use fire arms and when not to use fire arms otherwise you begin to see abuses and I expect a cordial relationship between the police they should work under the police not but not under supervision of the police they would tell police look this is the information one you pass on the information to them for action where they're trying to action because you see two runs cannot make a right I agree but the people who are fighting are carrying dangerous weapons killing people raping women maiming people is possessing them of their needs of livelihood so if they are carrying arms I've suggested some time ago in addition to all these I mean of the various security outfits we should liberalize our arms law to enable people carrying arms especially in their houseways if you know I'm armed in my house you hardly can come into my house with infinity and that asked me to lie down my wife my children anybody but because you know that most people are not armed that's why they do all the things I do so we need to liberalize the issue of arms and they should be synergy between the various regional security apps with the police they cannot walk without the police okay all right thank you very much mr. Mikey Jofo thank you for speaking with us this morning um of course uh have a great week ahead uh we'll take a short break when we come back we're moving away from security issues and we're talking malaria which is also you know one of the highest killers that the world has uh well is still dealing with we'll talk about it and of course localize the conversation here to Nigeria stay with us