 Well, good morning everybody out there in the in internet land. I'd like to welcome you all back to this month's installment of our unsilencing the archives Zoom lecture series. I'm Aaron Brody from the Bade Museum Pacific School of Religion And it is my distinct pleasure to introduce Dr. Melissa Craddick who will read our land and Decolonization Statement. Melissa, the floor is yours. Thank you, Erin We would like to begin by acknowledging that Berkeley, California is on the territory of the coaching the ancestral and unceded land of the Chicheno alone We respect the land and the people who have stewarded it throughout many generations and we honor their elders both past and present We're living in a moment that warrants deep reflection on our past or an even our most venerated figures deserve reasonable scrutiny During this time directing the archaeological excavations at Telenose Bay WF Bade participated in harmful stereotyping of Palestinian Arabs That was common among white Americans and Europeans conducting fieldwork in British Mandate Palestine. Some of these attitudes appear in print in his popular 1934 book, a manual of excavation in the Near East Museums are also scrutinizing their collections, including evaluating the legal status and the ethics with which they were acquired As stewards of the legacy of the body museum and its holdings, it is our responsibility to faithfully evaluate the process by which the collections were acquired within the context of our contemporary moment One approach is to ask new questions of the archival materials in order to examine critically the manner and impact of archaeological work on indigenous communities and to investigate the colonial conditions in which it played a part The body museum recognizes that its location and collection are part of ongoing and painful colonial legacies that contributed to historical inequalities These legacies have directly and indirectly impacted populations locally and abroad in Palestine where the excavations were conducted under the authority of the British Mandate government of Palestine In an effort to bring light to these issues, to serve a broader public audience online and to connect to the local community that it serves, the museum is taking action to become a more inclusive, welcoming and equitable institution that practices the philosophy of radical inclusion adopted by its parent institution Pacific School of Religion One of these steps is the creation of open access web exhibitions and public programming like this lecture series which highlight decolonizing themes We invite you to participate in these programs so that together we can listen, learn and work towards creating a more inclusive museum community. Thank you for joining us today Thanks Melissa and I believe that Felicity has some words to share Thank you Aaron, thank you Melissa. Just to echo Melissa's words there, on behalf of the PEF, we fully endorse the Bardet Museum statement on decolonization and we support their efforts in this regard As a funding organization, the PEF is very pleased to support the Bardet Museum's project to create an online exhibition to highlight the lives and work of the Arab workforce at the Tel al-Nasbah excavations And these online lectures exploring the contribution of the local population to the archaeology of Palestine As another Western colonial era organization, our own history shares many of the same characteristics which have just been described and we are keen to play our part in this process, both as co-hosts of these lectures and with our own initiatives Thank you And now Felicity, if you wouldn't mind introducing our speaker Thank you Aaron, yes. So today's speaker is Dr. Mahmood Hawari And he teaches at Bethlehem University in Palestine and is a former director general of the Palestinian Museum in Berset Palestine He was lead curator at the British Museum in London and a senior research associate at the University of Oxford His primary research interests are in archaeology, Islamic art and architecture, and the cultural heritage of Palestine He taught archaeology at the Palestinian universities of Berset, Al-Quds, as well as at Oxford University He directed, consulted and participated in numerous international archaeological projects and he obtained his MA and PhD degrees from the University of London And he is widely published in his fields of specialization So I think now it's over to you, Mahmood Okay, I'd just like to share the screen first, please We can see it just fine Excellent. Okay, well thank you very much Felicity for your introduction Thank you very much for all of you, the organizers of this very interesting series of lectures about silencing archives I have followed all the lectures and I found them very very interesting In some of these lectures I'm going to refer to in my talk So tonight I will be talking about Palestinian archaeologists and heritage professionals during the British Mandate Palestine This is quite, for me it is quite a very important talk that I have encountered throughout my career and also throughout looking and consulting archives Archaeology in Palestine, it's a disciplinary science that in fact came to Palestine by British colonialism It started, it has its beginnings in the late Ottoman period but really with the arrival of the British Mandate in Palestine, archaeology was introduced to the community The indigenous Palestinian inhabitants of Palestine were not familiar with this discipline, it wasn't taught in schools Even today it's not even taught in schools, it is taught at universities nowadays But to start this topic tonight it would be important to bear in mind that archaeology have been a subject or a discipline that accompanied British colonialism in Palestine So for this talk tonight, I have consulted a number of archives, these archives which I have been in fact consulting throughout or working on my various research and field projects These are here listed First is the Palestine Department of Antiquities Archive which has been taken over by the Israeli Antiquities Authority, it has an online archive and also digitized images in JPEGs The second one is the Israeli or the Israel National Archives which also has quite a lot of material on Mandate administration in Palestine Thirdly, Palestine Exploration Fund in London, which all of you know, it's not very much on the Mandate period but there are really important material or individual archives belonging to various archaeologists who actually excavated or worked on projects in Palestine and finally the National Archives based in Q in London, which has a text search, occasionally mentions Palestinian staff in terms of pay and employment Now for this talk tonight I have also consulted the writings of three prominent scholars Sarah Irving from Staffordshire University She gave a lecture in this series, I think in last September, it was about everyday labour in the British Mandate Department of Antiquities and she gave a really very interesting talk about one particular guard, Abdullah Al-Masri who was the athlete archaeological site which was an excavation that was directed by C. N. Johns of a Crusader city Now Sarah is a historian of archaeology, she published a number of articles about the basically the everyday life of ordinary Palestinians in the conduct of archaeology in from late Ottoman period, also including the Mandate Palestine Also she investigated various employees and workers at the Department of Antiquities and administration in Palestine in general The second scholar whom I consulted with her work is also interested in history of archaeology, that is Amara Thornton from the University College London, she published a number of articles that stemming from her PhD And she has published a number of articles regarding archaeological work with the Department of Antiquities in Palestine and the British School of Archaeology She mainly published articles regarding network of British archaeologists and the BSAJ, British School of Archaeology in Jerusalem and also in the Mandate Department of Antiquities And thirdly, Hamdan Taha who also was a guest speaker at this series who talked about colonial archaeology in Palestine, he's the former director of the Palestinian Department of Antiquities He published a really very important chapter called Palestinian History Historical Narrative and he has quite a lot of information about Palestinian archaeologists and scholars who are concerned with Palestinian cultural heritage Now just a number of general points about British Mandate in Palestine and archaeology When a British Mandate was established or was declared in Palestine in 1920, it took on itself a commitment to in fact establish a system for administrating Palestine, preserving its heritage and protecting and promoting its antiquities So that the British Mandate decided, the British Mandate administration decided to implement this principle by considering archaeology and tourism are part of solidifying Mandate authority in the region As a result it established a number of organizations or a number of organizational structures in order to further its interest in archaeology and tourism So first it established the British School of Archaeology in Jerusalem in 1919 and started with a training program for young local archaeologists In fact this was a direct reason for why a number of Palestinians became interested in archaeology and interested in working in the Department of Antiquities and taking it as a career and not just a hobby The second thing was the establishment of the Department of Antiquities of Palestine in 1920 But we have to take in mind that the politics of the Department of Antiquities was actually in line with the British policy to establish a Jewish homeland in Palestine and affirm a Jewish presence there Palestinian Muslims, Christians and Jews worked together in the Department, but only a fraction of that number of employees were Palestinians were entrusted also in senior position as we will see later in my talk And finally the British Mandate authorities decided to establish the Palestine Archaeology Museum which was opened in 1938, it was enabled by the donation of $2 million by John Rockefeller in 1928 This museum was designated to house antiquities that were discovered or uncovered in archaeological excavations across the country During the British Mandate a number of societies, local societies that are concerned with archaeology, ethnography and heritage, first is the Palestine, sorry just a minute please So the Jewish Exploration Society and Pro-Jerusalem Society and the Palestine Oriental Society, these were established in the early 1920s which I will be talking about these societies and their members later in my talk So in the beginning let's look at the Department of Antiquities of Palestine And here we have, I have a number of employees around the early 1940s, out of 73 employees, I mean Palestinian employees, there were three out of six antiquity inspectors These inspectors who became known through literature and through their activities in the Department of Antiquities, first Dimitri Baramki, second Naeem Shehadi Makhuli, third Salina Abdel Salam Al-Hussaini These are the main inspectors, antiquity inspectors who worked with the Department of Antiquities, there were a large number of supervisors, guards We were told about the guard Abdullah Al-Masri at Atlete by Sarah Irving in her talk, we have also mid-ranking or admin positions, we have library, museum staff and others But the vast majority of people who worked for the Department of Antiquities, they were mainly laborers who were brought in to work on various excavations and they were not employees or, yeah, they were not permanent employees of the department Now here I would like to mention the name Yusra, this name was mentioned by previous speakers, she's a Palestinian worker from one of the villages in Haifa who worked with Dorothy Garrod who excavated the Tabun cave in 1932 So although many of these laborers are unskilled but with time and some of these laborers have developed really skillful techniques in excavation and that's why European archaeologists just like to employ them continuously on their jigs Now the Department of Antiquities have other employees, also Palestinian employees, here I have a list of them, Jalil Baramke who served only for a few months in 1939, he's a keeper of the Archaeological Museum or the Palestine Archaeology Museum who also brought into the discipline his younger brother Dimitri The second person is Stéphane Hanna Stéphane, he is really a very enigmatic figure, he was an assistant librarian, an archaeological officer who started working in the department from the early 1920s but he was also an ethnographer and a writer with many talents whom I will talk about later Third is Aouni Aldagiani, he was antiquities inspector and he also worked at the department and became director general in the museum from 1959 until his early death in 1968 We have also Yusuf Asad, an Mubarak Asad, in fact it's Mubarak Asad is the father of Yusuf, Yusuf he was director of the Palestine Archaeology Museum until 1967 I couldn't find the date when he started as director but his directorship of the museum ended with the occupation of Jerusalem by Israel in 1967 Now Mubarak Asad, who is the father of Yusuf Asad, he was an artist and formulate and he was also curator and took managerial positions at the department Here we have Harutun Jameel Haliblyan, he is an Armenian, he was a chemist in the museum labs Now let me start with, sorry, since I can't see all of the text I'm going to minimize the, I'm not sure, okay, that's okay Now Dimitri Baranqui, he was born in Jerusalem to a Christian Palestinian family in 1909 and he is really well known to be the first Palestinian archaeologist He had a very thriving and rich and extremely interesting career, so he was the first student trainee at the BSAJ in Jerusalem and he was appointed as field archaeologist at the age of 18 Can you imagine having a field archaeologist of that age starting at the Department of Antiquities? He was promoted very quickly to become an inspector of antiquities in 1929 and by the year 1948 he became a senior antiquities inspector He earned his BA and later his PhD from the University of London He led a number of excavations at different sites all over Palestine Mostly, most important excavation that he actually directed was the excavations at Khermet al-Nafjah, which was identified with Hisham's Palace in Jericho He conducted 13 seasons of excavations from 1934 till 1948 He was briefly acting curator at the PAM in the initial years of the Jordanian rule, means after 1948 for about maybe one year And he worked at archaeological sites in Jericho with ASA, with the American School of Oriental Research And that was quite for a brief period of time, maybe for about two years In 1952 he was invited to go and teach as a professor of archaeology and curator of the Archaeological Museum at the AUB, the American University of Beirut A few years later became a lecturer at another Lebanese university and that is the University of Balaman Now Dimitri Baramke published quite numerous books and articles in the English language And also reports in the quarterly of the Department of Antiquities, the Journal of the Department So this is actually a number of images here of Khermet al-Nafjah The photo on the top left, it's Dimitri Baramke sitting among his workers I like this picture, it's quite very emotional for Dimitri Baramke who's been working there for many years If you notice the workers probably had to go home and change into clean clothes and put their best clothes on And pose in front of the camera while Dimitri sitting in the middle there with tilted head who was very proud of his workers The second picture underneath that is a unique picture which I was provided by Dimitri Baramke's son Alex This is quite a private or a personal photo of Dimitri there dressed casually with his dog Next to his brother Jaleel who is in a tarbouche and has you know wearing a tie Probably that's when Jaleel was still working at the Department of Antiquities This photo was taken at Hisham's Palace on the steps of the underground bath The two photos on the right are also from Khermet al-Nafjah excavation On the left one on the right you have one figure standing on top of one of the pillars I'm not sure if that was Dimitri Baramke or Robert Hamilton By the way Robert Hamilton joined Dimitri Baramke in this excavation around 1940 or 1941 The bath house was uncovered So this is actually yeah and the photo underneath is at the end of the excavations but before doing any conservation work at the site And here we have a list of publications on Khermet al-Nafjah by Dimitri Baramke The photo on the left is the ground plan of the complex of buildings of the palace By the way the name of the palace as Hisham's Palace was given by Baramke since he uncovered a number of ostraca And one piece of marble with the name Hisham ibn Abdul Malik and based on that discovery he decided to call this palace after Hisham Now there is a discussion or there was a discussion between both Baramke and Hamilton about the patron or the builder of this palace While Baramke insists that this is the palace built by Hisham ibn Abdul Malik who was a Caliph based in Damascus from 24 until 743 While Hamilton suggests the nephew of Hisham Al-Walid II as the builder of this palace And he in fact says that this is actually the palace because of its sumptuousness and because of its structure and the way and the various aspects of the architecture It doesn't suit Hisham but it suits the way of life that Al-Walid led which is in fact spending most of his time in fact for pleasures and music and parties and so on And he has some evidence in the palace to show for that Anyway the discussion continues and it was never really resolved Most importantly that the main publication of the palace actually was done by Hamilton He published the definitive book on the architecture and decorative arts of the palace while Baramke because he excavated the site since 1934 And he was the main archaeologist he actually published the archaeological reports on the progress of the excavation so the archaeological site of the excavation was covered by Dimitri Baramke And here you have the list of his reports all the way from 1939 in Qodab until 1942 He also published well he actually worked on the palace as part of his PhD Unfortunately his PhD that he obtained from the University of London he never published So to carry on about publications of Baramke so following his departure from Palestine after 1948 Nakba And he moved to work at the Lebanese University at the Beirut American University of Beirut He published a number of publications well first the one The Road to Petra a short guide to East Jordan in 1947 He published a book on the Phoenicians and a catalogue of the archaeological museum in the American University of Beirut Another catalogue of coins and a book in fact which is not bad in my view It's like an introduction to the art and architecture of ancient Palestine from early times from the Bronze Age all the way to the Ottoman conquest of Palestine Now the second and most important archaeologist at the Department of Antiquities was Naeem Shahadi Makhuli He was first of all he was an Orthodox Christian Palestinian from the village of Kufari-as-Ziv in the Galilee He studied at the British School of Archaeology he was trained there and then appointed as inspector responsible for the northern region And he was based both in Akka and in Nazareth He himself conducted a number of excavations and a number of sites And he was responsible for the restoration of Khalat El-Qarin the Montfort Castle in Northwestern Galilee He published a number of reports in Qodab most importantly he published a guide of Akka A tourist guide of the city of Akka which has a major part of the city belonging to the Frankish times the Crusader period and early Ottoman times Naeem Makhuli in early 1948 he decided to go to Beirut to visit his sons who were at school in Beirut But he was not able to come back to his home village Kufari-as-Ziv in the Galilee Despite his pleas and requests from his Jewish colleagues at the department of antiquities then to mediate with the Israeli authorities to allow him to return Unfortunately he was not allowed to return so he remained in Beirut with his family but he found a job in Libya And he worked there for several years perhaps with some recommendation from his friend Sian Johns who helped him get this job He died in Beirut in 1976 Now I mentioned the number of societies that were established during the British mandate one of these societies is the Palestine Oriental Society And this is in fact quite an important society that it was established in Jerusalem in 1920 by Albert Clay who was a seriologist from Yale University who was during his visits he was based at ESA in Jerusalem And so the mission of this society was for the cultivation and publication of researchers on the ancient Orient The second president of this society was John Gaston he was director of antiquities of the government of Palestine He outlined in 1921 that archaeology should be practiced in Palestine based on the principle that the monuments and antiquities of Palestine belong to Palestine and to the Palestinians This is quite an important statement that he made probably in light of the discussion at the time or the whole issue about Palestine becoming a national home for Jews stemming from the Balfour Declaration So the society sponsored the publication of the Journal of the Palestine Oriental Society So if we look at the membership of this society in 1932 there were 191 members only 10 of them were Palestinians among them were the following names Now for many Palestinians who are listening these are quite a well known names particularly the first one and the last one who are known by their prominent publications on Palestinian history and culture Now these scholars were involved in in fact recording native Palestinian culture and Byzantry for it was under threat from the forces of modernity They viewed contemporary Palestinian culture to include components of Kenanite, Philistine, Hebraic, Nabataean and Syrian Aramaic cultures They published their articles about all these topics in this journal Now of 335 articles published in the JPOS from 1921 to 1948 only 50 articles were written by Palestinian scholars mostly by Taufik Khanan and Stifan So I would like now to introduce Taufik Khanan, he was in fact a medical doctor but self-taught scholar in the field of ethnography and Palestinian studies and came to folklore through epidemiology so he became interested in Palestinian ethnography and while he was practicing his profession as a medical doctor in various hospitals in Jerusalem and in Bethlehem area he also was a really very serious scholar and researcher So Khanan actually linked folk and religious traditions to the landscape and all its components such as water, fauna, homes and monuments So he published more than 50 articles in English and German on folklore and superstition and more than 37 medical studies Among the important articles that he published it was an article on the traditional Palestinian home, the Palestinian traditional home and its components So basically it is a study of Palestinian domestic vernacular architecture and become quite an important reference to many modern researchers who are working on traditional Palestinian home I'm not sure if you can hear the thunder, there's a thunderstorm here outside, sorry for the interruption So that is one important article, the second important publication, he actually published a book on Muslim shrines in Palestine and this publication remains to be one of the breakthrough studies on the subject and that all of us in this field refer to this important book And thirdly he collected a large group of amulets and talismans and it became one of the most important collections in this field Khanan's family after his death donated this collection to Bezat University and this collection is being exhibited in the main library at Bezat University Taufik Khanan was actually a prominent diverse personality in the intellectual milieu of Jerusalem His house was actually today in the area of West Jerusalem but not very far from Damascus Gate and his house was a place of meeting for various scholars, ethnographers, archaeologists and he knew the scholars of power, Dalman, Helma Grandvice and William Albright So you can imagine that he was well versed in the intellectual but also in the archaeological community in Jerusalem and he was a familiar face in many of the research schools or foreign schools of archaeology in Jerusalem One of his comments about the situation in Palestine in the turn of the century, of the 20th century saying as the European civilization which is bringing to Palestine many a blessing is eradicating at the same time beautiful and sound moral principles So that's why one of that is what motivates him to really document various aspects of rural life and the life of Bezat and Filahin in the countryside of Palestine He was quite aware that this way of life will vanish with the advent of modernity Now with the advent of the Zionist colonization in Palestine under the British mandate, Canaan and his colleagues, Sifan and Al-Barhuti felt a need to defend Arab culture and challenge Zionist attempts to highlight only Jewish past Canaan also was interested in biblical studies and shared Dalman's idea that one cannot understand the Old Testament without studying the Palestinian folk law Sadly, Canaan lost his house in Western Jerusalem in 1948 and his library was looted including three manuscripts ready for publication His daughter, Layla Mansoura, she was interviewed to be talking about this tragedy of the loss of the house and the looting of his library When West Jerusalem became part of the well under Israeli control and Jewish looters came into the house and took away all his library away Now other scholars who actually were part of that society was Omar Al-Barhuti who contributed a number of articles on Bedouin law and common law in the periodical in the journal He also published in 1929 a book on Bedouin law in Palestine in Arabic Al-Qadah al-Badoof in Palestine which is quite an important reference book Another name who was active in this society was Elias Haddad who wrote several contributions on blood feuds, peasant factions and pedagogy And finally, Aarif Al-Aarif, he also published a number of books and articles One of the important books that he published in Arabic is the history of Jerusalem from dawn of history until modern time But his most prestigious publication is an ethnographic book that he published together with Harold Tilly He was a deputy assistant commissioner of the Australian Red Cross society titled Bedouin Love, Law and Legend It was first published in Arabic in 1944 and in English in 1974 So finally I arrive at the conclusions So I have a number of points to conclude with So first, a fraction of the employees of the British Mandate Department of Antiquities of Palestine who were antiquity staff, inspectors or museum curators, scholars were Palestinians I mentioned the name, it's only 73 Unfortunately I haven't got the numbers because the numbers were actually in the hundreds And so only three inspectors who were Palestinians So they came from a stratum of modernizing Palestinian elites They come mainly from big families, rich families, Christian families While the vast majority who worked at the department were unskilled laborers So this kind of state of affairs reflect really the colonial reality on the ground And also the class reality where the rich, the young people who were rich from rich families went to study and got good positions at the mandate administrations while the unskilled workers come from the working class and the peasantry The second point is the question of fundamental asymmetry So we have European trained Jewish academics and archaeologists who played a greater role in the Department of Antiquities Scientific Work Their background and training was much closer to the European and Zionist concepts of the significance of the land and its monuments than to the indigenous Palestinian counterparts They later meshed seemingly, later means the Jewish archaeologists and academics They later meshed seemingly into the Zionist nation building and colonial project while the Palestinian experts were dispersed in the Nakba of 1948 In fact we have a complete cut off work that it was done by Palestinian archaeologists Many of the figures I mentioned in my talk like Baranky, Machhuli and Alhuseini, they had to leave the country and work somewhere else And that is also reflected the archaeological work that it was done in the West Bank which remained under Jordanian control There was some work done by some of these archaeologists like Amnil Dajani But most of the work done in the West Bank, it was done by foreign universities and organizations And finally I would like to say that a new generation of Palestinian archaeologists has emerged with the establishment of archaeology departments at universities in the West Bank in the late 1970s And some of you would remember the name of Albert Glock who worked at Biazay University, established the first institute of archaeology at Biazay University And also other departments of archaeology were established at other Palestinian universities But basically we have witnessed a new emergence, a new beginning of Palestinian archaeology and the emergence of a new generation of Palestinian archaeologists late 70s, early 80s at universities in the West Bank The peace process that is called the Oslo Accords in 1993-94 gave another impetus for the development of the discipline of archaeology among Palestinians And that is the establishment of the new Palestinian Department of Antiquities in 1994 where Palestinian archaeologists began conducting archaeological field research with the cooperation of various other international universities and institutions And finally I would like to end up with a personal note that with this I will end my talk So this is an extract that I found in Dimitri Baramki's PhD thesis that was unpublished towards the end of the book When he tried to sum up the excavations at Kherbet Al-Nafjah in Shams Palace in 1948, just the last days of the British Mandate in Palestine, he wrote these rather sad lines The excavations although not fully completed, i.e. at the Kherbet Al-Nafjah, have had to be indefinitely postponed on account of the termination of the British Mandate over Palestine And the period of uncertainty and semi-chaos that set in soon afterwards, it is hoped that at some future date some enthusiastic person may supply the funds necessary for the resumption and conclusion of the work These are the words of Baramki in 1953 and this is a sketch that he has done haphazardly of this mill that he has discovered and excavated I think about 500 meters to the west of the palace And he published also this quite bad quality photo of this mill that he excavated So I'm really humbled by these words by Dimitri Baramki who is considered to be the first Palestinian archaeologist because I myself was inspired by Dimitri Baramki and his work at Kherbet Al-Nafjah And throughout my archaeology career, I always dreamt of working at Mafjah and finally this dream have come through when in 2010 I started or initiated a project to do a landscape archaeological survey in the hinterland of Kherbet Al-Nafjah and Hisham's palace to look at what really sustained the palace in terms of water management system, in terms of water channels, aqueducts and obviously mills as you can see from these images Let me just show you the final image here This is in fact, sorry, this is after three seasons of excavations, we managed to unearth this wonderful mill that was almost 200 meters to the west of the mill that Dimitri Baramki haphazardly excavated in the last days of the British mandate. Here we discovered this mill that is the only mill in Palestine from the early Islamic period, namely the Umayyad period and it's compatible with the construction of the palace of Kherbet Al-Nafjah And which is part of the archaeological landscape survey that we did around the palace. And in fact, I feel again I would say I feel really privileged to be able to work at Kherbet Al-Nafjah and to walk in the footsteps of Dimitri Baramki who was one of the greatest Palestinian archaeologists during the mandate period. Thank you for listening. Dr. Hawari, thank you so much for this excellent talk and tying it all back together at the end to your own work that was a really great way to connect all of the dots and and also for presenting work that is continuing to build a picture that's being presented in the series of contributions of Palestinians working at all levels in antiquities and cultural heritage in the in different periods of the 20th century. And so I will also invite our live YouTube audience to submit any questions that you or comments you may have in the chat box. But in the meantime, while we wait for that, I will jump in with my own question and response that was drawing on one of your concluding points about the consequences of 1948 was happening to different heritage professionals after 1948 and so I was wondering specifically about what happened to the Palestinian staff at the Archaeological Museum after 1967 and you gave us a lot of insight about the impacts of people in lower positions who were in Jerusalem specifically in that period between 1948 1967 and and what did the handover look like at the Archaeological Museum at that point in time so I'd be interested if you could enlighten us about that. Well, maybe to the first part of your question about what happened to those people who actually remained. Well, just to let you know that in 1948 Jerusalem. As a result of the war and the ensuing Macba that befell on the Palestinian people. The city was divided into two. The headquarters of the Department of Antiquities which was at the Palestine Archaeology Museum remain remain in the eastern part and some of the Palestinian employees in fact remained in the department who were various admin and middle ranking jobs. The director of the museum with the departure of the British mandate Baranqui was appointed briefly as main curator of the museum but not director for some reason. There was, in fact, there wasn't a very official, there wasn't an official handover of the department and the museum, but Hamilton, Robert Hamilton who was director of Antiquities until the last day of the British mandate. In fact, haphazardly put together a proposal to have an international committee or international body that will be sort of like the board of the museum and that will take care of the various antiquities, particularly the whole issue of the Dead Sea Scrolls in the museum and in the warehouses of the department. So that committee continued to meet and to function until 1966 when the government of Jordan decided to annex the museum to the Department of Antiquities of Jordan. That meant that when Israel occupied Jerusalem in 1967 it was a Jordan state institution and became an Israeli state institution as well. The Department of Antiquities in Jerusalem gradually dissolved as a result of Jordanian administration in fact favored the moving of the weight of archaeology into Amman. So the headquarters of the Department of Antiquities Jordan was in Amman and the department in Jerusalem became secondary and in fact it have lost its previous importance. Now to the workers themselves, many of the guards as I said low ranking employees remained working there, but in fact it's completely not like not the same as it was before. Now the second part of your question, and that was, sorry, can you remind me which the last part of your question? I think actually you addressed all of my question. Yeah, yes, so thank you. I have another somewhat complex and difficult question for you if you will. Please. So you were describing the more political aspects of the Department of Antiquities under the British mandate system as really being used to highlight antiquities in order to establish a Jewish presence and therefore support the founding of the Jewish state. And I am interested in hearing more about whether or not the archive speak to tensions between the political agenda and the realities of the antiquities on the ground which of course represent all periods of human occupation and maybe how that was navigated and I'm also thinking about the same issue in terms of the granting of permits and his take on the archives is that there wasn't much bias in terms of granting of permits to specific people or to explore specific periods. So I wonder if you agree with that characterization and what you have found in the archives that speak to this issue. I think the archive most most of the time it was being silent about this and there isn't much from what I know from my own experience and from what I've seen. There isn't much evidence in the archive that there was any discrimination in granting permits. After all, many of these of the archaeologists who actually were active at the time were working for the Department of Antiquities. So licensing wasn't an issue so they you know they would just initiate an excavation and that's it. But I think what happened is that because what I mentioned in my talk because of the weight there was a much larger weight and influence for let's say you know I don't like to use these these words Communion Muslim Christian or Jewish but I would say Jewish archaeologists they were far greater in number and they were more qualified. Many of them have come from from Europe with PhDs in archaeology or or in heritage or ethnography and they were established they have also established their own their own societies. There's the Jewish exploration society which became afterwards after 1948 when Israel was established Israel exploration society. They had their own funding to fund various excavations of so-called Jewish sites or synagogues and so on. And basically, utilize archaeology and utilize the past as a way in which to to substantiate historical claims of the Zionist movement who was very active at the time and did not hide its ultimate aim with the establishment of Jewish homeland based on the declaration and from that respect, the British administration, including the department of antiquities were committed to the battle declaration and and committed to the notion of the establishment of a homeland for the Jews in Palestine. At the time when we are talking about almost 80% of or even more than 80% I'm talking about the early 1920s, more than 80% of the population was was Palestinian Arabs. And so that was, in fact, I mean, looking at some of the archival material and the published material. But perhaps the group of ethnographers who are very uncomfortable with the Zionist narrative at the time, and they were motivated to work on the notion of that the Palestinian Arabs who are, in fact, the indigenous people of Palestine and who absorbed various aspects of of of ancient civilizations that have have Palestine went went went through. So, but as I said, back to my first point that the archives are not very clear on this issue. And we can only read between the lines and make make some. I would say conclusions. Thank you. I think Felicity has a question now. Thank you Melissa and thank you Matt Mudd for a really fascinating talk. I actually have to loud. I think it's very typical. And it's about John Gaston, who's one of my pet favorites, in terms of, you know, personalities working in Palestine. And I wonder if it maybe he, you represent something that's that's probably quite typical in that, you know, you have a government policy you have a department policy which says X. The individuals working within that may have very different opinions or they might diverge from that kind of official orthodoxy in various different ways. And I think it's interesting because he's really important Gaston is, you know, one of the one of the big personalities of the mandate era, and it seems like he had quite a different view from the government which he was representing. So that's an observation perhaps. And secondly, I wanted to know a bit about Palestine, Palestinian archaeology and Palestinian archaeologists today, and how Palestinians view archaeology cultural heritage. Is there something which you feel that they're kind of claiming back now that so many more excavations have taken place under the aegis of the Palestinian Department of Antiquities, or is there still a lot of work to do. Well to answer your first question I think your, your, your remark about Gaston is, is quite, quite important and in its place. And yes, I mean, it is possible that many, I would say, maybe some British archaeologists who had different views from their own colonial administrations and I mentioned Gaston statement about, you know, Palestine is for the Palestinians. And, and I think I will go further by saying that he was the, I would say the catalyst in, in designing the training program at the BSAJ in 1920, when he established a training program for young Palestinian archaeologists. And it was only for Palestinian Arabs, by the way, from what I understand from the, from the carbon material from what I read. And, and for that matter, Dimitri Baramki was the first to, to graduate. And he was appointed to the Department of Antiquities and Gaston he had a vision. He looked, looked around and he's saying yes, Palestine for the Palestinians, but there are no Palestinian archaeologists. So he took matters to his hand in order to establish this training program solely for Palestinian young, young, young, young, young scholars. And, and so, so for that, for that, for that reason Gaston actually had a vision which is completely different than, than the British colonial administration. Now, to answer your second question. It's a very complex question. How modern Palestinian archaeology sees itself. How do we Palestinian archaeologists view how to advance the archaeology and cultural heritage of Palestine. I think if I, if I may, and I would say it is safe to, to say that there, there are different views among Palestinian archaeologists today about what is the way forward, and how do we view the, the history and cultural heritage of Palestine. But I think, and, and I think, you know, I am convinced that this is what I'm going to say is, is, is, is what is happening is that the majority of Palestinian archaeologists view the history and cultural heritage of Palestine from an inclusive way that Palestine is for the Palestinians and including the Jews. So that we as, as Palestinian archaeologists, we are not looking for, for, for exploring the roots of the Palestinian people because for us, we are the indigenous people of Palestine and there are so many aspects in our own culture that is embedded within the ancient cultures of Palestine, and you name it from language from traditions from architecture from crafts from, you know, so, so we have no problem of saying that we are the indigenous people and we want to explore and reveal the history of Palestine. For all its periods, right from the dawn of civilization from prehistoric times and to modern times, without giving any preferences to any period or any specific culture, which is in stark comparison to what archaeology was, was, was utilized and was, in fact, I would say even weaponized by the Zionist movement in order to, to, to, to actually provide rude services and substantiate the historical claims of the Zionist movement that this is Palestine is the land of Israel and it's always, it was for the Jews and will always be the Jews only. And, and especially with, you know, with the current political governments that, that are, are in power in, in recent decade or so in Israel, that the narrative is basically, you know, this is a country for, for, for the Jews and we Palestinians are, are guests here, they are residents here and not, are not part and parcel of the salt of that, of that land. And this is, in fact, so going back to the idea of archaeological priorities, I think what Palestinian universities and the parliament of antiquities, they are excavating, they are trying to save, save the guarding and salvage whatever it's possible from this, from the archaeological and cultural heritage without any sense of priorities. So for example, if I, and I will finish because this, this is a really a great topic that we can talk about it for hours, but I would just like to finish answering this with one, one point. If we look at the work of the Palestinian Department of Antiquities in Jericho where I have also worked for years. They have protected, conserved, restored many archaeological sites and that include synagogues, two synagogues, a number of churches, and also working on Hisham's palace and various other so-called Islamic or Islamic period sites. So there is no preference for let's say official Palestinian archaeology when it comes to archaeological sites. And how, how do the people in Jericho, the Jericho, you know, residents, how do they feel about this, this cultural heritage? Do you think that attitudes are changing? Do you think people feel more connected now than they used to perhaps? You mean connected to archaeological sites, do you mean? Yeah, this is something that is theirs. It's not just something that somebody else is left behind. This is belonging to them intrinsically as part of their humanity, as it were. I think so. I think now more and more people are aware of the fact that, yeah, archaeological sites is part of their heritage. But also because there is benefits because archaeology and archaeological sites also nowadays and modern time come with benefits. And the benefits is tourism and whether it's internal cultural tourism or whether it's international tourism. And I think the Palestinian Authority in general, the municipality in Jericho in particular and the Department of Antiquities are trying to protect and conserve and present all these archaeological sites. And the work that has been done in recent years are very, very remarkable for the purpose of attracting as much international tourists as possible. And an example is putting recently in the last year, putting the roof above the fantastic mosaics of Kherbet al-Nafjah and Hisham's palace. That in itself, it's a project that many people or the people of Jericho feel very proud of. And ordinary people, I saw it in my own eyes. Ordinary people now so many ordinary people are now going to the site and really appreciating and, you know, this, first of all, the archaeology, but also what is being done to preserve this heritage. Thank you. I have a related question that came in from the YouTube audience, although I think you did address parts of this already, especially with the Jericho example. But the question is if you could briefly speak about excavation while being under Israeli military rule and perhaps just if you could also for our audience briefly, briefly explain how archaeology it works in different parts of Palestine because it's not all under Israeli military rule. So I think the Jericho example is good one. But the other part of the question is whether or not archaeologists are able to freely set their own excavation agenda. Well, this is, yeah, this is again, it's a it's a big question, but allow me to answer briefly. First, the area of historic Palestine is divided. You have Israel is controlling Israel 1948. And you have according to the Oslo agreement, the West Bank was divided into three areas, A, B and C, while the Palestinian Authority controls area A, which is only 15% of the territory of the West Bank. The rest is shared by Israel and also have an area C, which is completely controlled, almost half of the of the West Bank is controlled by Israel. So what is left if the the audience or the listeners would would imagine the map of the West Bank is almost like a Swiss cheese in which you have Palestinian areas completely isolated from each other. And so to go from Ramallah, where is the headquarters, let's say of of the department of Palestinian antiquities to go to Jericho, it has to go through an Israeli territory and Israeli a checkpoint. And the same as going to Hebron and the same as going to the north to to Nablus and Jeanine. So, so the Palestinian Department of antiquities that being established after the peace agreement with Israel in 1994 became responsible for managing all these archaeological sites. And so, but it's the reality on the ground is not so simple as that because it depends on the situation of that particular time that week or that day. Often, there's something happens and Israel would put a checkpoint outside Jericho city and nobody could go in and nobody can go out. So if you are actually managing an excavation in Jericho and you want to go home and Ramallah that there you cannot go. Or if you are in Ramallah, you cannot come back. I worked there for several years and and I witnessed that it was very, very difficult because of the control of the geography, the control of the roads by by a series of fraud blocks and all these military installations that Israel set on the ground. And in many places where in area B, for example, which is a jointly Palestinian and Israeli control. Often, if the Department of antiquities wants to do some work, the settlers come and attack employees of the Department of antiquities and say that this doesn't belong to the Palestinian Department of antiquities. And they're always frictions with the settlers and with the army. And so the everyday reality on the ground, which is dictated by this violent military occupation, which is, you know, coupled with the violence of the Jewish settlers in the settlements, make, you know, conducting archaeological work. Very, very difficult, but despite all these difficulties that the Department of antiquities are managing to do quite, quite a lot of restoring and conserving and protecting archaeological sites with cooperation with various European institutions and and universities. The big challenge, in fact, in addition to the challenge of the occupation is the illicit excavations or the illicit digging of and robbery and looting of archaeological sites that are in the scenes that neither the Palestinian the Department of antiquities can go there and the Israeli army or the Israeli authorities, either they are not willing or they cannot protect these sites. And as a result, we have a mass destruction of archaeological sites by young people who are looking for jobs and they are, you know, not finding jobs. And and they find by by getting antiquities and looting antiquities as a way to get some some some cash. So there are a complex of issues that hinder proper archaeological work in in the West Bank. In addition, of course, to the building of of the wall and building of settlements that you know that destroys and really obliterates archaeological sites. Yeah, and of course, this is an enormous issue that could be the subject of his own, your long lecture series so thank you for attempting a very brief summary that I think was very useful for clarifying for people tuning in. I think we'll wrap it up with one final question. This is also from the YouTube audience. And the question is, could you briefly speak. Oh, I'm sorry, I read that one. Next question, really interesting presentation I always thought Dr. Baranqui went to Lebanon to direct the AUB museum after finishing his dissertation, without thinking about the timeline you've been discussing. Do you think he left because he realized there was a ceiling on his employment in Jerusalem so to speak. Or was there another reason I think you did address this in your talks if you could elaborate a little bit. Baranqui and his relationship to Lebanon. No, I think just briefly to say, I have. I'm not aware exactly what what motivated him to go to Beirut. But I think he was unhappy with the development at the Palestine Archaeology Museum and the Department of Antiquities. More of the work is completely came to standing still, particularly with with funding of projects on the ground, and the moving of gradually the Department of Antiquities to Amman. I assume he was, or I guess that he was unfulfilled, unhappy about the current affairs. And he got an invitation from AUB, American University in Beirut to come and teach archaeology and open a new Department of Archaeology in Beirut. And he jumped on the offer and he just went off. And I think that's what I actually could understand what happened. Well, thank you so much, Dr. Hawari, for a really fascinating talk. A wonderful historical sketch of indigenous participation in our broader field. I would like to thank you. And I'm sure it was enjoyed by our YouTube audience and also happy to say that it will be available for further viewing after the live session when it's up on the Archaeological Research Facilities YouTube channel and also the Bade Museums YouTube channel. So we hope that the audience will continue in the future as well. And I'd also like to mention to our audience that the series will continue. And we have a talk in March on the 24th. So also a Thursday, 9 o'clock California time in the morning and whatever times you are out there in internet land. When Jack Green will speak about his research into Olga Toughnell's work at the site of Lakish, but then also with local populations. And that talk is entitled Archaeology, Community and Public Health. So I hope you all are able to return again March 24 at 9am California time. So on behalf of the Bade Museum at Pacific School of Religion, the Palestine Exploration Fund and the Archaeological Research Facility at UC Berkeley. We would like to thank Dr. Mahmoud and to thank the audience and we look forward to seeing you next month as well. Well, thank you Aaron very much. Thank you and thank you Melissa and Felicity for organizing this wonderful evening and for organizing the series. Thank you very much.