 and welcome to Think Tech Hawaii. It's time for Responsible Change. I'm Rebecca Ratliff, the guest host for tonight, sitting in for Chuck Crumpton. Tonight is going to be a great conversation with Judge Sandra Sims, a retired Hawaii state judge, and the incomparable Gail Wright Sermons Esquire. I'm really happy to have my sisters here with me this evening. The topic for tonight equality versus equity and DEI fatigue. Hold on to your seats. This is going to be a riveting conversation, I'm sure. First, I'll start by just giving the definitions of equality and equity. Equality is the condition of being equal, and equity is the condition or quality of being just impartial or fair. Gail is a civil rights attorney, so you're going to hear some great perspectives from her. Judge Sims, I know you have some great perspectives from the work that you do in non-profit. Tonight, I just wanted to talk a little bit about all that's going on in the DEI climate, and I'll add DEIB. We want to just keep this topic alive and talk about what it means to the work that we do out there, whether it be for-profit or non-profit in the legal space, in the mediation and arbitration space. Gail Wright Sermons and I are both mediators, and just want to have this healthy discussion to hopefully empower people who are listening to the show out there to understand what some of the issues are and what we're going to do about it. I'm not saying what we can do about it, I'm saying what we're going to do about it. This is a call to action. That's what this show is all about. DEI, Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion, started off as DNI, Diversity and Inclusion. Then some companies switched it around and started calling it IND to put emphasis on inclusion because diversity is a fact. By the way, diversity is not a person, diversity is a group or classification of people who fit in certain categories, but then there was no equitable inclusion. E got added, so it was diversity, equity, and inclusion. Then most recently, belonging got added because the really is not to hire or bring in people simply because they fit in diverse classification, but to ensure that they're included equitably. What does that mean? I want to go to you first, Gail, and talk about some of the work that you've done as a civil rights lawyer and why this topic is important to you. Thank you, Rebecca, for having me and allowing me to talk about something that is critical and is of importance. My adage and my thought is always at this moment in our history, keep your eye on the prize, hold on. It's a concept and it's a song that was sung during the civil rights era in the 1960s. It's something that right now we need to be mindful of because there's no quick fix about diversity. This country that was founded in the belly of the most vicious kind of racism that you can imagine where black people, my ancestors were not treated as human, has a lot of work to do. We're still a very young nation and these efforts are very new. We can go to the Reconstruction era period and we can remember about the Freedman's Bureau that was torn down. We can go then later on to the Kernary Court that was created and was intended to look at the issues of education and housing and health and every spectrum of life in America to see what are the concerns and how do we repair that? Well, it was moving along. It's somewhat of a clip and moving forward and then you get the Reagan administration and everything stopped. When you talk about this movement, it's got to be a constant effort and a constant movement. After that, you get the Civil Rights Act of 1964 that also included so many provisions in it that looked at how do we make ourselves a better nation. You had senators who would get on and say, we're a nation that's not working on all of its cylinders. If we're not using all of the resources that we have, if we're not hiring back, then we were called Negroes. We've been through names, you know, Negroes. The other in were the color, the black, African-American, but we know who we are. So it went through all of that. But you have senators. Can you imagine now, the senators now, what's going on in Congress right now ever saying we have to work with all of our cylinders? We have to work with all of us coming together as a nation to see what strengths and talents and abilities we have. Because the notion then was that black people have great talents and abilities, and they're not being used. They're not being used for the bigger community, but they weren't being used in the black community. So how do we change all of that? So you get that movement there with the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Of course, the most significant, well, some would say the most significant. We can all agree the most significant part of that act, and it had many, many parts, but there are three that are fundamental. And the most fundamental and the one we can know most about is Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 that was amended in 1972 because it didn't include the federal government. And we should. And that's amazing. Isn't it 72? It didn't get changed to include the federal government, one of the largest employers in our nation until 72. It still does not include Congress. So members of Congress don't have to abide by any of these laws whatsoever. And the laws were not included for purposes of being benevolent and being kind and being understanding. Any laws, any notion about diversity, about fairness, about inclusion that's based upon that is doomed to fail. Because it's got to be a commitment to understanding the value of people that they have, that the people have, the value that's given by those people. Perhaps I should stop there. I mean, you know me, Becky, Rebecca, excuse me, Professor, I could go on and on forever on this because it is one of my, one of my real issues. And I will, and I'll stop there because I know that the judge in doing so much in the area of diversity and inclusion within the courts, and I've done a bit of that too. We had something called the racial injustice program that was started that looked at all the courts in the federal system in the Second Circuit in New York. And that was about 15 years ago. And now the new one has started. And it's always amazing to me to see the new things once again. And it's the same old song. It's the same song. It's the same old song, but with a different beat. But it's the same thing. And so we're recreating and recreating. And I think that in many ways it's because we have not really kept our eyes on the prize and our foot on the pedal to get the gas going. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you have really set the stage for this conversation. Thank you for that. Absolutely. Much more to hear. Yeah, much more to hear from you, certainly. Judge Sims, what, you know, what do you have? I know you were agreeing as I was. You know, I, you raised so many, many great points, great point scale. And I, especially giving us that history, I think one of the things that, you know, kind of jumped to me with when we started talking about this movement now of everyone wanting to be a part of, you know, inclusion and diversity and equity, you know, sort of was spearheaded, you know, following the George Floyd's murder. And we had, we saw then this huge surge of energy and activity to kind of compensate for what everybody kind of knew and saw around the world was this horrible thing that we were doing in this country when it comes to how we treat how our police and how we treat Black citizens. I mean, that was a worldwide shock, well, not shock, it wasn't a shock to us, but for the world to notice and see what was happening here. I work with, as I said, I'm tired, but I am involved. We were involved with the, there's a committee, like, much like you said, Gail, on equality and access to the courts, it's in our Supreme Court. And I've been on that committee now for a number of years, and we've addressed a number of issues that come up with regard to race and equity and diversity, and so forth, within the courts. A lot of our focus over the years has been on language, because in the way we have a very diverse community, both racially, ethnically, in language. And so we had issues with regard to people not being who don't speak English, who are non-English speaking, but also not just Spanish, but you're looking at a lot of languages from the South Pacific, and people who are involved in the Micronesian community who didn't have access and understanding, because we didn't have interpreters. So we spent a lot of time doing that and making certain that, but then when this event occurred, we were at one of our meetings, and it was kind of interesting that there was this huge protest demonstration, who was outside the courts doing the time that we were having some of our sessions. There were like 10,000 people who were in protesting, marching in response to George Floyd's killing. There were five, there was something like 10,000 people outside the, you know, industries of Honolulu, and that event was organized by young people. It was actually organized by a 17-year-old high school. She's African American, and I think it was Japanese, might have been, she's mixed, but they got together and they brought all of these young people. The other folks came and got involved as well, but then that kind of really was quite a significant moment, I think for me, in terms of understanding where we're headed, in terms of diversity, because it's the younger folks that got involved. And it wasn't just black kids, because it's not going to be black people here, but it was a huge diverse group, 10,000 people, and they organized it over stuff like, you know, Instagram and, you know, TikTok and all. That's what they used to get all the kids to come, the folks to come down. We didn't know that was even going to happen. But here we are, and there are these kids who's as, you know, I think we all have our little soapboxes. Mine is, these kids are going to save us because they're just not going to put up with the stuff that so many we've sort of kind of gotten a little bit complacent and so, but they're not putting up with it. I mean, they're having, this is a generation that had to be concerned about whether or not, when I got to school, I was going to live that day. That's not something that we had to think about, but they do. Well, I make it today, I don't know. Is somebody going to come here and, you know, what are we going to do about that? So they're advocating for that. I mean, they're coming of age to vote and seeing that vote being challenged and taken away. They're coming of age and having to address issues about rights that have already been given and never challenged. And here we are wondering, do we have the right to control our own bodies? Do we? My goodness. Do we have the, you know, for those that are, you know, in the LGBT community? I could marry the person I love, but now maybe I don't know. Is that gone too? So I think what is also happening is, because these are diverse communities speaking louder in a different way than in so much in litigation, but just making their voices heard in the street. And I think we can't ignore that. I get terribly excited now when I see so many of them so involved in so many of these issues, because that's where our change is going to come at this point. And I mean, I'm with you, Gail. I remember all the, you know, the civil rights, but I'm actually old enough to know all that stuff. But I mean, I was there for some of that. But I mean, to see this energy and to see this this group that they're highly intelligent, they're well spoken, they're just not going to take it anymore. And I think we're, we're, we're even looking at what, I don't even want to talk about Congress right now, but let's just move along. Well, you know, when you talk about young people, you know, going back to history, and we can think about the young people who were involved in SNCC. We can think about the young people who were involved in the Black Panther Party. Exactly. The Black Panther Party people were not adults. They were very young people. They were kids, very young men. Well, not only kids, but they were, yeah, they were, yeah. Yeah. And when we think about the busing that went on, and when we think about the times that Black people were being locked up in jail and parents, the kids went out and stayed home from school and were the ones to lead it. I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to latch on to your optimism here about youth. And I'm going to hope and pray that it doesn't end when people get older and they get into this competitive world when they're fighting for jobs, for housing, and so on. That they don't, that they lose that enthusiasm that they have now when they may not feel as though they have much to lose. You know, and I think that that's part of, and I'm with you on that. I'm trying to get out here. I was with the Lawyers Committee on Civil Rights last night at the 60th anniversary, you know, the organization that the started. Yes. Yes. All of those to bring lawyers together and basically to say, you know, you do a lot of chat and chen wagon and talking, put your money where your mouth is and let's get something going. So we honored, in fact, Leon Higginbotham and the Leon Higginbotham fellows. Oh, great. Yeah. He being the great, the great jurorist that he was. Yes, yes. But my hope is always that we are not, that we just don't keep having these cycles. And then to understand too, that it's okay to have cycles as long as we keep the energy going. And as long as we do something that Harry Belafonte expressed so brilliantly, which was to pass the baton, you know, within the black community, he used to say, you know, we're great sprinters. We're great runners. We're the first of this. We're the first of that. We can be on boards. We can run things and we, we're all the first. Oh, we think we are. And we don't necessarily see that there were people who were way before us and we're doing the same kinds of things. We're great at fast. But are we good at passing the baton? So I hope that with these, these revolutions that we think we're having, because I don't think it's really revolution, maybe it's evolution, evolution, that we, that we're able to pass the baton, that we're able to connect with the young people that you have so aptly described as, as moving forward with concepts of fairness and justice, and that we are also passing the baton to them to let us know about the efforts and the struggles. And I don't like the word struggles, the fights. No, I don't even have that. I'm not a struggling. I don't, I don't like the struggles. I don't struggle. Yeah, yeah, none of us, that's right. So as soon as we have the idea that we want to say, so that there's a connection, so that we're not every time reinventing the wheel, and that every time we're not just moving forward because of the feel good moment, you know, you're so right about the Floyd. After Floyd, the world created the diversity programs and got involved in them and put, you know, Pamela Newhawk in her book, Diversity Inc. Talk so eloquently about diversity. And she doesn't just talk. She's done tremendous studies, a great deal of research on diversity. And she's not very optimistic in that book. She looks at how many billions, not millions, billions of dollars have been put into law firms, into industries, into agencies, to create diversity programs. But yet, as her expression is, the needle has not really moved. The needle has not moved. And in some ways, if you look back from the 70s until now, in certain areas, particularly in areas of health, even more specifically in areas of infant mortality and morbidity of Black women, it's going down. We're going back in terms of property and home ownership. It's going down. In terms of movement, we can even look at law firms. Everybody says, oh, the law firms now are hiring, but in terms of partnerships, it hasn't changed much. So and that means to me, it's got to be a lot more than just the numbers, just the concepts, just the training. Some say the diversity training creates more friction within groups. So it's a matter of looking at what does work. What are the programs that do really work? The McKenzie report that comes out all the time and they're constantly upgrading their assessment of diversity. What are the kinds of things that do work? The biggest one is accountability. The biggest one is having the leadership at the top. Leadership. Absolutely. Yeah. Well, that's it. Employer or whether you're a college, leadership at the top. Yes. And mandates. And accountability. Right. And because there has to be that commitment that says, this is, this is who we are. This is what we stand for. This is what we represent. So we're, this is how we're going to move in this area. And so I think actually that absolutely is where it has to be. Because if you're just kind of wanting, you know, fighting them in the weeds, it's not going to happen. We're going to give them this resistance. Particularly in the corporate world, you're going to have all the other things going on. I've seen stuff happening in many of the nonprofit communities. I sit on a couple boards with that. And so what's happening there is that you're having these board conversations and it's just understood that we have to be responsive. It's just that it's a given. So you start from that premise of, yeah, this is how we're going to do it. This is how we approach it. We're talking about, you know, helping foster parents or, you know, people who are kids who are in foster care. We can't just sit and decide this is how it's going to be. We're going to have to be involved with people who have that lived experience. Let them tell us what do they need. Absolutely. I used that a session the other day and it was just one of the women was, she was previously a foster parent, but she's now a part of a program called Epicahonic. And they teach parents how to deal with the foster system. And they've got a whole, you know, ask her because she knows what she had to do. She knows what they had, what worked for people who needed to get that kind of. And so we have to pay attention to the people we claim we are serving. Listen to them. Listen to them. And, you know, and the generation too, listen to this generation because they have a lot to tell us. I mean, granted all the movements, it's an evolving thing, but this seems like an even more evolved generation to me. Yeah. To see there they have a little more, they got, you know, they're not going to, they're not a passive group. Yeah. These younger kids, they don't bow to tyranny, as you're saying. Exactly. Yeah. And you all, the two of you have brought up so many points, including moments that became a movement, the different concerns that exist because of new legislation, underrepresentation in, you know, in our communities and how the big courts and the overlapping pandemics of, you know, the really long COVID social impact, not just a physiological impact, but, you know, COVID, the weather events, food insecurity, job insecurity, all of these different really issues that have been felt globally. And again, the reduction of rights in a newer legislation. And so when you talk about the cycles, it's important to note that because different people in different organizations, you're talking about, you know, accountability has to be top down, mandates from the leaders, because people have different motivations for, you know, why they're doing what they're doing in this DENI space. The DENI fatigue comes from different places. So, you know, for those of us who understand, you know, you said it, Judge Sims, we knew before George Floyd was murdered in front of us, we knew that there were inequities. But that incident and then continued incidents is that, you know, now being caught on camera, amplified, you know, the awareness, there were awareness. So it's, you know, it's important that we keep that needle moving. I'm saying moving, because as you've pointed out, Gail, it really hasn't moved forward that much. There's been some progress, but progress is very slow. And what, and I enjoyed the interplay between the two of you when Judge Sims mentioned that, you know, this generation, we can count on them. That's my hope as an optimist. But I heard your point too, Gail, is will they actually become jaded as they become older? Is racism taught or is it learned? Is it life experiences that bring it about? How do we fight, because none of us look like we're struggling, how do we fight the ENI fatigue understanding that it, that people feel fatigued for different reasons? And, you know, the work that we do is so important in listening to what the issues are so that they can be addressed for, you know, because you can have the answer to the wrong, you know, question. The wrong question, exactly. You're answering the question that's not been asked. That's right. Exactly. That's right. Well, one of the things that I, in terms of DEI fatigue, one of the things that, that we have to always remember is that this is a society that's, that's basic principle is money. You know, I wrote an article for the American Bar Association years ago. I won't tell you how many years ago, and you really get to know my age. I'm trying to hide that. But it was about business as being the motivating factor in diversity, inclusion and equity. And that sounds so harsh. And people don't like to hear that because we like to feel, have a good, you know, feel good sensation. And we like to think it's all about goodness, kindness, benevolence. It is not. It's a bottom line. And when we get diversity, when we get it, when we really create it, what happens if we look at the McKenzie report and other reports that have been done, they show that businesses improve, their bottom line improves, their money. Absolutely. They get, they get people, you know, if I'm working in a place where I feel embraced, if you will, understood and listened to, people don't overlook me with those microaggressions, I'm more likely to be more productive. I'm more likely to want to come there. Absolutely. I'm more likely to want to stay there. My, the reputation of my, of my office, if I'm a lawyer, my firm is a global one. So it means something. So there is a bottom line to all of this. And it works with concepts of diversity. You know, I'm not throwing the baby out with the bathwater, but I'm saying that the bottom line is what is sometimes what we have to look at and remind people, why does it work? Why does accountability work? You know, I'm on the council and you're with the center CPR, International Center for Conflict Resolution Prevention, Prevention Before Resolution, Prevention and Resolution. And there are concepts of accountability. So that when firms join us, they have to sign a pledge that says we're going to hire from a pool that includes black people, women, because the women in the race issue is very different. You know, women have moved forward. All the studies at Kenzie report, all the studies on diversity show that women have moved forward. And we're talking specifically about white women, but the issue of race is not the same. The changes have not been the same, they have not improved and changed. And so we're really willing to see that and grapple with it as a group, as a society and come to organizations and be very transparent about what the real issues are and why they really make a change. I don't think they will be changed, but I'm an optimistic too. And I believe that we can make a change if we continue to have these kinds of open dialogues and discussions. We may not always agree on everything, but the fact that we listen to each other's perspectives and ideas, I think will be the thing. And most importantly, Judge, as you said, to the young people who can enlighten us and can encourage us and can prevent us as older people from going into those existential moments when we wonder about the value of it all. You mentioned another good point about looking at it from the corporate standpoint. And I think what we have now is who's that audience, who's that market for the corporations now? The reason for getting, I mean, Granite is the bottom line, but that bottom line has expanded to include a global bottom line. And that global bottom line includes people of color, people of different ethnicities, people of different sex. So you have to be mindful of that. You can't ignore that and say, we're just going to still keep doing what we're doing. But your market, your audience is different. And when you get to these younger folks who are so, I mean, I got a bunch of myself, that's kind of how I know a little bit about them. But they're so independent minded, they have their own, I mean, they're accumulating wealth in a very different way than I was raised. They know how to use that. They do. They know how to use that. They do know how to use that. We've got to pay attention and we've got to participate in initiatives and again, the movement. And as we're winding down, I want to get just a real quick snippet from both of you. And then I'll close out the show. But Gail, give us a 40 second snippet. Well, less than 40 seconds, because we're winding down. It's the way I began. It's always, it's the way, it's the way I began. Keep your eyes on the prize, hold on. And the prize is justice and understanding their space and room for all of us in that concept. Thank you, Gail. And Judge Sims. Mine is listen. Listen to who you claim you serve it. Listen to what they need. Listen to how they want you to respond. Don't just make up your own rules about how it should be done. Listen. Yes, very important. Thank you. And mine is in this climate where things are so uncertain politically and otherwise. Stay safe, but don't stay silent. Listen to what I like. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Well, this is an addition of this time for responsible change. And I have been your guest host, Rebecca Ratliff. And thank you to our guests, Judge Sandra Sims and Gail Wright-Sermons. Thank you and good night.