 Hello and welcome to NewsClick. For 35 years, Abdul Jabbar fought for thousands of victims of the world's worst ever industrial disaster, the Bhopal gas tragedy. He died on 14 November 2019, two years ago, of illnesses that he contracted during the chemical leak which took place two kilometers from his house. For the last 37 years, the gas leak at the Union Carbide Plant has claimed at least 20,000 lives and left over 5 lakh people disabled. Last year, the BJP government conferred on Abdul Jabbar, known to people who knew him as Jabbar Bhai, the Padma Award. We have with us N.D. Jayaprakash from the Delhi Science Forum to discuss the legacy of Abdul Jabbar and who can rightly claim it. Welcome to the show. So, can you tell us what is Abdul Jabbar's legacy? His entire family was exposed to the disaster. His parents, his brothers and his sister. So immediately after the disaster, he started helping other victims who were exposed to toxic gases. In the process, he got in touch with other activists who came to Bhopal immediately after the disaster. Since the process, he became an activist as a victim and also as an activist in taking up the cause of the Bhopal victims. Because one of the first requirements was medical aid and food and other materials. So in the process, he started a group for the Zareli gas, scum motor was formed and he was part of it. So that is how he got involved. But one year after the disaster, there was a lot of differences within the organization also. So he formed his own organization. Many women who were provided, were working in stitching centers. That was closed down after one year after the disaster. So these women protested against the closure of these stitching centers. So he helped these women to form an association called the Bhopal gaspiders, Maira Uddukh Sangatan. This was in 1986. And since then, he has been actively fighting for the Bhopal gaspiders. And he also fought a legal battle. Yeah, because one of the first issues was for the needy victims. So he filed a petition in the Supreme Court. And through the Supreme Court, food aid was provided to gas victims. More than one lakh families, they were given free food because of intervention. That was one of the steps. And because this petition was then and after, because of the consistent struggle, the stitching centers were reopened after one year because of the struggle. So he thought that the issue is not confined to these women, the whole of other victims who were not getting any kind of help from the government. So he took up, through his organization, it took the course of all gas victims. So that is how he and he was fully spending all his time because earlier he was, I mean, he had finished his ITI and he used to work as a small contractor. So he gave up and he started full-time work with the victims. Dedicated himself completely. Okay. So why do you think last year became the time when he was conferred the award, which were given out now because of COVID-19, one couldn't confer the awards. What do you think prompted the government to think of Abiljabbar now? Because his death on 14 November 2019 was a big setback because as an activist because one of the petitions before the High Court was to provide proper medical treatment to gas victims. And this petition was filed in 1998 and in 2012 the Supreme Court directed the Union of India and the state government to provide proper medical treatment to gas victims. And the Supreme Court transferred the petition to the High Court and that matter is pending for the High Court for the last nine years because in 2012 the matter was transferred there. From time to time the High Court has been issuing very good orders but unfortunately the Senate government has not been complying with those directions. And while this matter was pending for the High Court, he died because of lack of proper medical care because he himself was a victim and he was suffering from various, he had breathing problem and he was a diabetic patient and he had problems with the eyes. And when he was admitted to the Bhopal Medical, B.M.H.H.A.C. Bhopal, that hospital didn't have the facilities to treat him properly. So, he was transferred to a private hospital and he was taken to Mumbai for better treatment. But in the process, while he was in the private hospital in Bhopal, he passed away because of lack of proper medical care. This became an issue and the government had to, immediately after his death, he was awarded the State Government, because at that time the State Government awarded him a separate award for his services to society. And then there was change of government. So, the new government came, they also recognized his contribution, you know, and they decided to award him with Padma Sree. So, considering- Because at that time he was in the news, you know, because of his death and- That's right. And considering the role of the various governments that have come to power and gone in the last 37 years or so, do you think this award given by the government is somewhere purely symbolic? Yes, definitely it's symbolic, but it should be, when I hope that the government recognizes that this is a major tragedy and there's more needs to be done. And hopefully we are in touch with the government, because this medical petition, the High Court has passed stringent dollars and stringent direction to the State Government and the Central Government. And hopefully they will comply with their directions. Could you take us through what their directions are, what they could do? Because, you see, after we filed this petition in 1998, the Supreme Court directed the Central Government to build a separate 500-bed hospital in Bhopal. So, finally in the year 2000, a hospital with 350 bedded super speciality hospital was built in Bhopal. In 2000, this hospital was the best hospital in the whole of Central India. And unfortunately, because it was the best hospital, there was a lot of pressure to provide services to non-gas victims also. But over a period of time, the non-gas victims got priority in treatment in the Gas Relief Hospital and became a scandal in the sense, you know, we protested against this. I mean, you create a separate hospital for the gas victims and non-gas victims gets priority in treatment. So, because of our pressure, we again went to Supreme Court and because of our pressure, it was run by a trust from 2000 onwards. So, the trustee resigned in 2010 and the Supreme Court directed the Central Government to take over the hospital in 2010. But what happened was after 2010, many of the specialists, consultants and specialists left the hospitals because a number of other private hospitals came up in Bhopal at that time and they were paying them higher salaries. And also, although we demanded that Bhopal Medical BMHRC be converted to a teaching hospital, so that the best professionals remain in there and provide the best treatment to the gas victims. Because in the 1991 order, there was specific direction to Central Government and the state government to provide the best treatment to the gas victims. So, tragically, after 2010, after these specialists started leaving these hospitals, the collective treatment in BMHRC started deteriorating. And in 2010, the Central Government set up another unit of Allende Institute of Medical Sciences in Bhopal. So, at that time, we said that when you decided to set up aims, BMHRC should be converted to aims instead of setting a separate infrastructure in Bhopal. But the Central Government did not consider it. So, many of the doctors who left BMHRC actually went and joined aims Bhopal because that is a teaching hospital plus the facilities are far better. So, one of the demands has been that at least the BMHRC must be run. At least on power with the facilities at BMHRC, it should be at power with what is there in aims Bhopal. So, at present, non-gas victims in Bhopal have far better facilities in aims Bhopal than gas victims in BMHRC. This is the contradiction. So, the matters coming up for this High Court again on 30th November and hopefully the Central Government and the State Government comply with the directions to improve the infrastructure in BMHRC so that the best treatment available in Bhopal should be provided to the gas victims. Can you give an idea of how many people actually need the medical care and the BMHRC? There are nearly five lakh gas victims who are registered at BMHRC. This has been another problem because we have been demanding that proper medical records be kept for all the gas victims. So, there was direction to computerize the medical records of BMHRC plus other hospitals. There are a number of hospitals run by the State Government also for gas victims. So, this proper medical records of all the victims who are going for treatment and one of the information we have got is at least 150,000 gas victims are regularly visiting these hospitals. That means at least 150,000 are permanently injured. But according to official records less than 4,000 victims are permanently injured. That is a contradiction. There were demands to update this number. But despite our demand, despite the Supreme Court demand to computerize the medical records, the records kept by BMHRC is not compatible with the records kept by the State Government. Because of this, the National Informatics Centre was directed to ensure that the data of BMHRC and other gas delivery hospitals should be made compatible. So, NISC has not complied with those directions. NISC has made a respondent in the case in 2013 by the Supreme Court order. But last eight years, they have not done anything to make the records compatible. But available records is evident that more than 150,000 victims are permanently injured. And in Bhopal? In Bhopal. And most of them are not being treated properly because there is no monitoring, proper monitoring of their health status. Because there has been a consistent complaint from the victims that very often their symptoms are treated and that the illnesses they suffer from get ignored. Because you see, what happens is one day a victim goes to one health centre. It takes medicine from there. And next day, the same victim goes to another medical centre and the doctors, they do not have access to the victims' medical records. They do not know what medicines, what are the symptoms. So, every time the victim goes to hospital, it is treated as a new case. So, there is over medication at one. And it is not based, it is all symptomatic treatment. And because of this, there has been a number of cases of renal failure. And there were also cases of spurious drugs. All these matters have been taken up with the state government time and again. But these issues have not been resolved. Okay. So, what is supposed to happen in the November hearing? Is it just a status update? No, no, because number of vacancies in BMH just have not been filled. So, the court has directed that those vacancies be filled by them. And also, all the status of medical equipment and medicines, lack of medicine, that these issues have to be addressed. All right. So, the entire Bhopal tragedy cases have been proceeding on three tracks. The other two tracks are the compensation and the renewal of the land. Remediation. The remediation. So, what is the status of these other two cases? Also, part of what Abdul Jabbar was fighting for? Right from one of the contentions in 1918 at the time of the settlement, we said that the settlement amount was 470 million, was not based on any concrete figure of dead and injured. And after we filed our review petitions, the Supreme Court came out with figures saying that the compensation was based on the assumption that 3000 people had died and 1,00,000 were injured. But then they said, how did you get these figures? What is the basis of, because after the disaster, nearly 6,000,000 claims had been filed. So, at the time of the settlement, less than 10,000 claims had been categorized. Okay. So, there was no basis for the Supreme Court, all the government to come to this, quantify this figure of 3,000 dead and 1,00,000. They were totally hypothetical figures. So, it took 12 years to go through all the claims. And there were 40 claim courts were set up after 1991. I mean, after 1991, 40 claim courts were set up. And it took 12 years to process all the claims. And after processing all the claims, the court, the claim courts came to the conclusion that 5,73,000 people had been injured and suffered various degrees of injury. So, that was, so we said, then we said that now that the courts, the claim courts themselves have come to the conclusion that the magnitude was five times greater than the assumption of 1989. They should increase the compensation at least by five times. So, we filed this petition in 2004. But at that time, the Supreme Court dismissed it. Now, in the sense that they said, we have to go back to the welfare commissioner because regarding quantification of the magnitude of dead and injured. We went back to the welfare commissioners, the welfare commission also dismissed the case. We went to the high court, high court dismissed the case, came back to the Supreme Court. Then Supreme Court again admitted the case in 2010. And after the Supreme Court admitted our petition for reviewing the magnitude of dead and injured, the Union of India filed a petition, curative petition, challenging the settlement of 1989. And with law figures? By 2010, the Union of India sought 7,000 crores more, which is 10 times more than the settlement because 470 million in 1989 was about 705 crores. But in 2010, the very government which settled the matter in 1989, challenged it, seeking more than 10 times the compensator amount. But although the matter was filed in 2010 and some preliminary hearings have taken place, the court has not dealt with the matter even after 10 years because they have to set up a constitution bench. It is a five-hour bench to hear the matter again. So we are asking the court to exploit the matter hearing because after 37 years, every day more and more victims are dying without proper care and more and more victims are... So the curative petition, does it go with the same number of victims as the... Yeah, because now the Union of India accepts the fact that 573,000 have died. I mean injured. Injured. So while we support the curative petition, we did not accept the figures of injured and dead with the Union of India. Initially, yes. So even now, we are contesting those. We are not contesting the overall magnitude of injured. We say it's... we have to file like 74,000, 73,000. But we are saying that the claim... More than 22,000 death claims were filed till 1996. After that, I mean the state government did not permit anyone to file death claims. So registration of death claims after 1996 has not happened because although more people have died because of the seriousness of the injuries they had suffered. So this matter... So we are saying they should... The government should allow victims to file registered death claims and also reexamine the basis for rejecting death claims. That should be done by an independent group of doctors. They should examine the medical records on what is the basis for rejecting death claims. So that has to be examined. And also we are saying that there are, as I pointed out, more than 150,000 people are regularly visiting hospitals. All these people are permanently injured. So the category of seriousness of injuries should be again based on the medical records. That is one of the reasons why we are saying that computerized all the medical records. So there would be enough evidence to point out the degree of injury suffered by these victims. And why are victims again and again visiting hospitals? Even after 37 years, people are still visiting hospitals seeking treatment. By now, there should have been proper categorization of the type of injuries the victims have suffered because the major injuries have been lung injuries, eyes, nerves, injuries that kidney damages. So all these, there should be proper categorization of all the victims. And based on the degree of injury, compensation should be enhanced. And also re-examine all the death claims and quantify the actual number of death. And allow people to register claims for deaths after 1996. And you were just saying that every day the tragedy claims new victims. Was this a reference to the people who are dying all those years after the exposure or the continued leaching of the chemicals? No, that's a different matter. Even before the disaster, the factory was dumping toxic waste into what is called a solar evaporation pond. And also burying waste within the factory premises. So these toxic chemicals have leashed into the ground and contaminated soil and water. So we came to know this only as late as 1994 that the chemicals have been contaminated to the ground, water. And so from then onwards, we've been demanding that, you know, how we came to know this was within the factory premises, they have stored chemicals, you know, whatever was left over. So that was stored in a shed. But because leaking roofs, etc., many of these chemicals which are kept in bags, etc., they had to repack them and store it in a safer place within the factory premises. We got to know this information in 1994. Since then, we've been demanding. So then we knew that there's been serious problem of chemicals leaching into the ground and contaminating the soil and water. So Greenpeace conducted one study. And so there have been three or four studies which prove that water has been contaminated. And also Needy has also conducted studies. And Needy themselves admitted the fact that more than 1 million tons of soil alone have been contaminated in and around the factory. So we said this is, I mean, at least based on this evidence, there should be a detailed study of the extent of contamination both within the factory and in the solar pond and also the degree of the extent of water, because some of the aquifers also have been contaminated. So there should be proper study, the extent of contamination. And on the basis of that remediation measures should take place. In fact, just 15 days back, I did talk to the minister. And he said that he's willing to meet us sometime in the middle of November. The minister of gas lift in Madhya Pradesh. So he's agreed to meet us and we'll discuss this matter with him. And what we are proposing is that at the initiative of the state government, all the parties, gas victims, experts in the field, and chemical engineers and others. And also we invite representatives of the United Nations Environment Program to just study the magnitude of the problem and also to suggest remediation measures. One of the things is whether on-site remediation through closed-loop technologies, whether it's possible to remedy soil and groundwater. So we are saying that at least the state government should take the initiative in calling a meeting of all the concerned parties. So hopefully they may do something. So I hope to meet the minister again in the middle of November. Do you think it really matters a lot to the victims when the governments change, which government is in power, which government is not in power, to the kind of relief and remedial measures that are taken? No, unfortunately it does not matter at all because whether it's in the state government or the center the last 37 years, proper attrition has never been given to the cause of the gas victims. In fact, in organizations like the Indian Council on Medical Research, there's disbanded all research in 1994. I mean it was just criminal negligence. They should never have done that. And because of our pressure, they reopened research in 2004. I mean I'm sorry at least 2010 after the Supreme Court's intervention. So there's been such a major gap. Those continuous research from 1984 to now, they would have got much more information on the kind of impact these toxic gases have, not only on human beings, also on the environment. This aspect has been neglected, irrespective of which government is in power. Unfortunately, this aspect has been neglected. Right. So did that make you wonder for a moment when the Padma Award was announced that why is the VJP government keen to remember someone whose cause they were not really especially fighting for or adopting? No, I think they love to answer this question. Despite not taking enough interest regarding the cause of the gas victims, they decided to award somebody like Jabbar, who's been fighting for the victims for the last 35 years. Do you think the award can mean something? I hope it means that the government, even at this late stage, can still take interest and take care of the gas victims. Let them take the credit for it if they want to. Great. Thank you very much. Thank you for watching NewsClick. Do subscribe and follow us on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram.