 Coming up on DTNS, Twitter shuts down a Slack competitor in order to improve direct messages. Was Apple's China agreement all that odd outside of being with China? And why if you wear a wireless headphone, you're kind of basic. Also you're basic if you say things like basic like I just did. This is the Daily Tech News for Tuesday, December 7th, 2021 in Los Angeles. I'm Tom Merritt. And from Studio Redwood. I'm Sarah Lane. And I'm Roger Chang, the show's producer. Joining us, senior editor at CNET, Aya Zaktar! Hello everybody, good to be here. I'm excited to talk tech in a news format. Indeed, indeed. Today we will do that with Aya's and Sarah. We were just talking on the longer version of the show about smart thermostats and some other stuff. You can get that show called Good Day Internet at patreon.com slash DTNS. Big thanks to our top patrons. Today they include Jeffrey Zilx, Tony Glass and Philip Lass. Let's start with a few tech things you should know. Google and Roku have been in a dispute over how much to share data and add revenue and as a result, the YouTube TV app is no longer available in the Roku store and the YouTube app is scheduled to go away on December 9th. Now, if you've already downloaded either app, you still have access. So not to worry. It is too late though to get the YouTube TVs app if you don't already have it. But if you want to make sure you have the YouTube app on Roku after December 9th, now might be the time to download it. Indeed. Or just hope they come to an agreement for that. Intel acquired Computer Vision and Autonomous Car Tech company Mobileye back in 2017 and announced Tuesday it's going to take it public. Intel will remain the majority shareholder after the IPO. And Intel says Mobileye revenue is good. It's up 40 percent this year over last. Mobileye is developing advanced driver assist systems, one of which is used by China's Geely in the Zeker electric vehicle. Mobileye also makes LiDAR systems, the IQ, EYEQ system on a chip and a data crowdsourcing program called Road Experience Management. The 3D maps format from that last project will be used by autonomous delivery companies like Udelf, Schaeffler and more. Mobileye also plans to launch a robo taxi service in Germany next year. The U.S. District Court of the Eastern District of Virginia unsealed an order Monday that permitted Microsoft to take over control of domain names being used by a group called Nickel to gather intelligence and compromise systems at government agencies and NGOs in 29 countries. Microsoft can now divert traffic from Nickel's malware to render it ineffective, as well as gather intelligence on the group itself. Microsoft posted information on how administrators can defend themselves against attacks from Nickel. Because once Microsoft has shut Nickel out of your system, you won't want Nickel back. Cambridge Quantum announced a platform that can generate cryptographic keys using a quantum computer. The service will be called Quantum Origin, marketed to financial services and security organizations at first. This is the first quantum computing powered security service to be offered commercially. Instagram announced teen safety updates the day before CEO Adam Massari is to testify before U.S. Congress in a Senate hearing titled Protecting Kids Online Instagram and Reforms for Young Users, focusing on what the meta owned company knows about the impact of its services on younger people. The new update will prevent users from tagging or mentioning teens not followed by the account and will recommend other topics if a teen spends too much time on one specific interest. Next year, parents and guardians will be able to see how much time their teen has spent on Instagram, enabling the ability to set limits and will notify them if a teen reports another user. All right, let's talk about Twitter and that DM overhaul coming. Quill is the company that was launched in February this year, or at least came out of stealth in February this year, as a more people focused Slack competitor. The company promised to solve the problem that users of things like Slack and Teams had of having to skim through thousands of messages every day just to keep up. And Quill, every channel automatically created a thread for each conversation, making them a little easier to scan. And if you didn't want a thread for every conversation, they had a separate kind of channel called a social channel where the comments just flowed unstructured with options for threading if you want. But that was for non-work stuff. Basically, they differentiated productive and non-productive uses. Notifications were also managed a little better. They were restricted to critical and time sensitive messages by default. And when you mentioned somebody, it didn't always blast out a notification to them. You could class it as passive. I'm just referring to this person and it's OK if they know, but I don't need to notify them or priority, which is like make sure to notify them. Like I want to get their attention. If that sounds interesting to you, I'm very sorry, Twitter just bought it and is going to shut it down at 1 p.m. Eastern on December 11th. Existing Quill users have until then to export their messages. But that approach to looking at something that everybody likes to use and trying to say, well, how can we make it better? How can we make it easier to use is going to happen to DMs? Twitter GM for Core Tech, Nick Caldwell, said the Quill team will help, quote, make messaging tools like DMs a more useful and expressive way people can have conversations on the service. And on the Quill blog, the company wrote that its team will work at Twitter to, quote, make online communication more thoughtful and more effective for everyone. Now, I don't know exactly how you do this. I don't expect that they're going to try to make DMs into a Slack competitor. But I can sort of see the idea of, hey, what we did with Quill was look at Slack and identify pain points and try to figure out how to make a better design that would reduce those pain points. It wasn't creating a new product. It was improving an existing kind of product. I feel like that's what they're being asked to. It's like, hey, DMs are here. They aren't great. Figure out the pain points and help us improve it. When Quill first launched and we talked about it, I remember thinking, well, it's only a matter of time before Slack just offers the same functionality because it wasn't a radically different product for productivity. It was just offering threaded conversations within channels which Slack just doesn't do very well. And that could still happen in Slack. I'm quite surprised that it hasn't. But that doesn't really matter because Quill, the product is going away. Anyway, yeah, I kind of feel like if you are a person who is in the DMs a lot and maybe are on group DMs where things get a little bit unwieldy, I don't use Twitter that much. I mean, DMs are kind of one-on-one for me. And there's just a lot of stuff I don't look at when it comes to like unsolicited DMs that I have open just in case. But most of it is junk. That could be cleaned up a lot. I don't know many folks who use Twitter DMs as a primary way to talk to co-workers in any way. I'm sure you're out there and you probably are a better person to say, here's what we'd really love the Quill team to do now that they're a part of the Twitter team. Yeah, looking at the Quill software, seeing the features it has, it doesn't look like it's anything that Twitter couldn't build themselves, which makes me wonder if they were thinking, OK, how do we redo DMs? And they kept bringing up Quill as an example. And maybe they are figuring it out. Maybe they're really just buying the brains behind this product because they are re-envisioning how Slack works. And Slack has a ton of features. It's like a Swiss army knife. And then there's so much junk on it, you don't know how to use it all. It can get really, really cumbersome. And Twitter has a history when it comes to feature creep. Usually it's pushed by the users adding hashtags, adding replies, adding this stuff on their own. And then Twitter goes, oh, yeah, well, adopt it. Maybe they're actually seeing something in this brain trust, essentially, that can help them move Twitter from just a social platform into a more productivity tool, because there is a lot of social media managers out there. I'm sure they'd like to be able to use the actual Twitter tool as the basis for handling all of their postings or making sure they keep track with competitors. All that different stuff could be built directly into Twitter if they can use this kind of Quill integration in the long run. I don't know. I think it's natural to say, well, Quill was a productivity tool. So the Quill people will make productivity tools at Twitter. But I don't think that's what they're going to do. I think it's still excruals complaining in the chat room. Twitter always does this. They buy something and shut it down. And the reason that happens is Twitter doesn't acquire companies for what they do. They acquire companies for what you said I as the brain trust, what they're good at. I don't think they're going to try to make DMs into a productivity tool. I think they looked at it and said, hey, you are really good with a productivity tool at figuring out how to improve the communication flow. We don't want to change DMs into a communication productivity tool. But could you improve the communication flow there? That that seems to me to be the what what they might be the most likely to do. It may be at pro features for Twitter Blue. That could be another thing that could be that too. Life's 360 makes a family tracking app that helps parents keep tabs on where their kids are, along with other location based services. So it made sense when Life 360 announced last month that it would acquire the location tracking hardware company, Tile, you know, the makers of tags that help you find your lost things. Match made in heaven, right? There is some concern, though, about location data and how it's going to be used. Life 360's privacy policy for Life 360 itself makes it clear that it does sell data from its users. But the company's CEO says the company has no plans to sell data on Tile users going to keep those separate. That is reassuring since right now for marketing and business purposes. Life 360 shares customers precise location, driving sensor data, unique identifiers and other data with partners, including analytics company Cubic. This is considered highly valuable in the industry because the data sets volume and precision is what it is. And the markups sources say that Life 360 sells data on 31 million users to a dozen data brokers who then sell to a wide variety of buyers, including U.S. government contractors. While the data is anonymized, it supposedly doesn't use protections like differential privacy to make it hard to de-anonymize the data. Now, I already see the reactions in the the Twitch chat, you know, people are like, oh, sure, they say they're not going to do it, but they'll change their mind. And the fact of the matter is this is valuable data that I think could be used responsibly. It's really easy for us as consumers to just immediately say, like, don't do it. It's bad. I don't trust you. And I don't blame people for doing that. But if they were to put in some differential privacy, if they were to protect this, having just general trends of how people move around and where they're clustered is immensely valuable for all kinds of things that don't involve trying to market you, particularly, but just kind of figuring out in general what kinds of products people need. It's it's valuable. It's how you get better products. What I wish Life 360 were doing is saying, not only are we addering differential privacy to our own data, but for Tile, we're going to we're going to work to make sure that this data is open and available for audit so that we can make sure that we've got good data for people to make good products with that is not violating people's privacy. That's what I want to see companies do, not just shut it down. Like we promise we won't use tile because the reaction always is what the reaction is in our chat room, which is like, yeah, I don't believe you. When it comes to tile, it's like the name when it comes to little trackers, right? There's air tags and that's they call it the tile competitor. Anything is a tile competitor. The fact that Life 360 is picking up this company and obviously the chat room's reaction to the idea that what if they change their policies? Life 360 already had things in their contracts, like trying not to we're trying to do something to protect the resale of location data. But that doesn't necessarily mean like you guys are saying that things can't change. So they're definitely going to have to like do some kind of PR thing or say something to somebody. Hey, look, once we acquire a tile, this is what we're doing forward because there's a lot of competition. Apple, when they came out with air tags, while they're more expensive, Apple banks on privacy and they tell you privacy, privacy, privacy. If you hear that against, OK, this company may be selling your data. Even if you don't get the full information as to what's going on, you might just have a knee jerk reaction and run away from tile. Yeah, I mean, I would be less concerned. Well, I mean, I'd be concerned that Life 360 will change its policy on tile. Of course, there's always that concern. But at this point, if I were, I used to have a towel tracker. I don't anymore. I don't know what happened to it. But if I was a Life 360 customer, I'd be a lot more concerned with the privacy policy that I might not have been aware of before. Yeah, and that privacy policy has been public. But you probably didn't go look, right? Because there's all kinds of things in their privacy policy that are understandable, you know, they have navigation apps. Well, they're going to they're going to use your your data to do navigation. Of course, I want you to do that. If there's an emergency, they have some emergency 911 integration. We'll share your data with 911 in order to respond to it. OK, yes, I absolutely want you to do that. And also for marketing and business, we're going to share it with Cubic. It's like, well, OK, you're not sharing my name. But what are you doing to protect somebody from trying to figure out who's who in here? And the answer is that right now, according to the markup, nothing. That's the kind of thing I want to see is facts. What are you doing? Auditable, you know, transparency, not just promises, right? Because nobody believes him. As part of the U.S. Department of Justice's antitrust investigation of Apple, investigators have asked Roblox to explain why it labels its mini games as experiences instead of games. See, Apple prohibits developers from making their own little app stores. And as an extension of that policy, game developers are not allowed to bundle multiple games into one service. This is why Amazon, Luna and Xbox Cloud Gaming have chosen to make progressive web apps rather than submit separate apps for each title streaming from the cloud service. It's why Netflix's new games, they just released three new games today are three separate apps that you have to go and log in individually with your Netflix ID to play rather than just being in the Netflix app. Roblox appears to be an exception. Roblox users can create and play mini games that are accessed from within the Roblox app. Roblox used to refer to these games as games on its website. But during the epic Apple trial, App Store executive Tristan Kosminka from Apple explained to the judge that Roblox didn't fall under its rules because Apple didn't see a mini game as a game. It said it was similar to the experiences in Minecraft. So Roblox changed the terminology to refer to them as experiences. The DOJ not only wants to know the reasoning Roblox had when they made that change, but also wants them and other developers to help the investigators understand the difference between a game and an experience. Whereas the line is Apple applying this equally to everybody. As a reminder, related to that epic Apple trial, Apple has a couple of days until December 9th to either get a stay from a judge or comply with the court order that requires them to allow Apple App Store apps to direct customers to alternate purchasing mechanisms. That said, it wouldn't change this games versus experiences controversy. But I as I don't know, does your boy use the Roblox yet? Surprisingly, yes, he does use Roblox a lot. And so I have a little bit of knowledge on this. I am an old person, so I'm not exactly using Roblox on a day to day basis. But I've had to do a lot of research to see how many friends he's making on this. How does this game work? He wants to show me how these games work. And when they talk about experiences, basically, as far as I understand it, and this is again, as an old person, the you basically like skinning an engine over and over and over and over again. So theoretically, what makes an experience different than a game? The mechanics are essentially the same, except now you have different characters. I know a lot of these mini games or experiences disappear because the people making these experiences are using copyrighted materials to create their own little games, which eventually get booted off. A new one shows up, a new one shows up. But the games all operate pretty much the same. It's not like you're playing another old example, like a pinball game versus an action game. They're very different in Roblox. I believe many of the experiences are essentially the same with different styles of power ups, different color palettes. So you might actually have a difference between an experience in Roblox versus an actual mini game like what Netflix is doing or games. It almost it almost seems like, you know, the, you know, the app store executive says, yeah, the mini game isn't really a game. So that's where the distinction lies. Then Roblox says, all right, let's call it an experience. And the DOJ says, well, hold on a second. Why did you make that change? It sounded like Apple was OK with it as it was. It and Roblox almost drew more attention to itself than it needed to. Well, you know, who's not OK with it is Epic. Epic in the case said Apple doesn't apply this equally and held Roblox up as an example, saying, look, they let Roblox put these mini games in there, but they don't let us do it. And Apple said, those are different. Those are experiences. And I think Roblox scrambled to be like, you know what, just. Yeah, let's not get pulled into this. Let's let's let's change the name on the website, which you're right. Does it has a little bit of a stricent effect at that point, right? And calls attention to it. But I do think with your explanation, I as that it's like, well, if the fundamentals of the game are the same every time, then. It does feel more like an experience. And maybe that's what the DOJ will discover is like, yeah, there's there's plenty of other antitrust areas for us to investigate. But maybe this isn't one of them. I don't know. There's going to be less than 70 people than me trying to figure this out. That's scary. Yeah. If you're a Roblox user or or in a family with them and you've got a perspective, I'd love to hear it. Feedback and DailyTechnewshow.com. All right, let's get into headphones, Sarah. Let's do it. Nostalgia and fashion aside, vice president of the U.S. Might have heard of her Kamala Harris prefers wired headphones because she thinks that Bluetooth headphones are a security risk. Three former campaign aides told Politico's West Wing playbook. She shouldn't say so, but there's lots of photos with her with wired headphones. That's not all that's going on in wired land. However, up and coming Instagram account wired it girls. You could also almost think of them as it girls because we're talking about technology. But wired it girls celebrates a possibly shocking trend to you. People, mostly women wearing wired headphones. Just, you know, it's an Instagram account. The account is run by a woman named Shelby Hull. She launched it back in October, so it's quite new. Features, a lot of celebrities and influencers of the wire. Hull tells Teen Vogue, she's been following the retro trend for some time after reading a Vogue article in 2019 about it. So she wasn't the first person to discover this. According to fashion historian Rachel Weingarten, wired headphones were kind of inevitable because the so-called Y2K revival over the past few years in fashion has been so strong. You might hear a lot of people saying the nineties are back. It's kind of the same idea. But why wired headphones of all things? Weingarten thinks it's just the reality of the modern world, telling Teen Vogue, quote, the pandemic had most of us home and yearning for more comforting things ranging from home baked bread and crafts to less futuristic tech. For some reason, even though we spent most of the past year on Zoom, there was this tremendous sense of nostalgia and spending time listening to each other's voices. Now, of course, Weingarten may have a point there. You can use wireless headphones to listen to each other's voices. But I cannot agree less with this trend. I mean, for many years, all I asked for, all I wanted in life was to not untangle my earbuds five to 10 times a day, you know, coming out of a pocket, coming out of a purse, wherever they might be. Much as I tried, I could not wrap them in a way that could keep them from tangling themselves. I hate it. I never want what I mean. I'm wired right now because I'm not walking around. And, you know, if the headphones I was using now were mobile in any way, I'm sure I'd have the same issue. But it baffles me the things that people will do for fashion. It's like wearing uncomfortable shoes. You know, they're not very comfortable. You have better options. And yet they happen. I think it's probably mostly that nostalgia fashion that happens when we do inconvenient things because we didn't grow up with them, but we think it's kind of interesting that other people did. And so, you know, we go back and we use LP records or wear fedoras or, you know, grind our own coffee and a burger grinder instead of an electric grinder, stuff like that. I think the only legitimate argument I've heard is that when you're wearing wired headphones, it's very clear that you're listening to headphones and people bother you less because they see the wires. Yeah. So that might be part of it. I don't know. That's true. I don't. Yeah, I don't think it's worth it. It's not worth it. Fashionistas. But yes, you it's not something I have. I've looked at this Instagram account. I have been aware of this trend. I knew that Kamala Harris didn't trust Bluetooth. You know, the wired thing is it's not like new to me as of today. But when I when I look at a photo, I never go like, how trendy are you? I'm kind of like wired headphones, whatever. I guess they just don't have wireless headphones. Y'all are both wearing wired headphones right now. I'm leaning with Tom on this one of these signal to people, even if you're not connecting to anything, don't bother me because you can wear those little earbuds and the smaller they get, the people just don't see them. And it's not a sign of them to say, hey, leave me alone. So even if I plugged in anything, I'm like, I get that, especially why I was looking at the trends in this. It was a lot of the white air pod or the ear pod ones that really stands out versus clothing. So I think more of a signal, more than like, oh, it's really trendy. It's like, leave me alone with my earpods or earpods, excuse me, not earpods. I with my job is all day, every day when I'm out and about and someone says something to me, I have to go like, I'm sorry because they didn't realize that I couldn't hear them. Yeah, yeah. Well, folks, if you've got thoughts about headphones, perhaps you're even in our discord listening with your headphones. You can join by linking to a Patreon account and talk in our discord. Link that account at Patreon.com slash D T N S. The information sources say Apple signed a five year agreement in 2016 with Chinese government officials to help develop China's economy and technological capabilities. The agreements were made during a series of visits to China by CEO Tim Cook. The information says it has seen a copy of the agreement between Apple and China's National Development and Reform Commission that details Apple investments in China and regulatory exemptions in China for Apple. The document describes Apple providing training, supply deals, research, collaboration, investments and assisting government programs. This included Apple stores, opening them, investing in them. Our facilities, Apple opening those in China and renewable energy projects, among other things, the deal supposedly will end in May 2022. My question is this is getting a lot of secretly, which means they didn't release a press release about it. And is this different if this happened in the UK? Is this different than what Apple might do with any other country? Other than this being China, which I agree is different. But if they're doing business in China at all, is there anything in here that surprises you that they're like, oh, they struck a regulatory deal with a country's government? I mean, trying to make sure that the country is OK with you and make sure your products can be available. That's something Apple does with a lot of other nations. I think that like you were saying, the reason that this is bringing up a lot of people's thoughts, it's China. So there's a lot of invasiveness when it comes to the government. They want to make sure they get inside of all the technologies. And Apple's been a stalwart, saying, look, we're not allowing any government into our stuff. You're not able to get an iPhone's where we will not sell tools or build a back door that lets you into our devices. And so the fact that there wasn't a glowing press release from years ago saying that we are we are setting up a deal with China, it does give like an air of suspicion. However, if Apple is willing to do anything stupid enough where they could basically throw away all their goodwill after years and years and years and years of saying privacy, like I've said before, privacy, this this company, that would seem intensely foolish and extremely dangerous for anybody at the top of Apple, especially Tim Cook. Yeah, I think the, you know, China is a is is a country that, you know, I don't know, it's going to move the needle a little bit more. I've used that term twice and once every day. But also, I think the the whole idea of this was back in 2016, five years ago, and we're just now hearing about it is a way to get people to say, oh, boy, you know, Tim Cook in China, shaking, shaking hands. No one you do, you know, this is the, you know, Apple is being secretive again and and and and we're uncovering something. I agree with you, Tom, this unless you let's China, you've really got a problem with specifically. This is not different than an agreement that could be made with lots of other countries and has. Yeah, I think that's where I'm at, which is you should have a problem with Apple doing business in China overall, right? There are questions there. You should be looking at that, but this doesn't change that. This doesn't highlight it. I'm not seeing anything in here, which is problematic where it's like, and this is something you wouldn't see them doing, or they shouldn't have agreed to this in China because X. I mean, training people, investing in stores, striking supply deals with companies in China that they would have probably struck supply deals with. Anyway, like this is this is all fairly, fairly boring stuff. Maybe I'm missing something. Maybe there's something in here I overlooked. But to me, it's like, if you have a problem with Apple being in China, well, you already had that. And I don't think this quote unquote revelation really changes that. Well, let's check out the mailbag and see if someone has already written in about this very thing. They might be typing it up right now. But in the meantime, Ken G, a.k.a. Tid Gooby in Twitch chat, said relating to the blockchain and the terminology around all of that, I'm not sure if this is a distinction that matters to others. I think it would be helpful to tighten up the usage of blockchain versus distributed ledger. In general use, I agree, blockchain refers to a distributed ledger. But as crypto gets more prominent and used and used for more things, especially things like central bank digital currencies, I think it would be helpful to make the distinction. Ken G says, I think I understand how a blockchain works. A chain of block each is signed and includes the hash of the previous block creating the chain. The blockchain can be maintained by a distributed or central authority. Ken G says, I understand the general concept of a distributed ledger shouting in a room of accountants until over half record the transaction, for example. But I have no idea how that's accomplished technically. Well, the ledger is a series of entries and the entries are the blocks. So that's that's I looked at this email as like this is a really good point. They are not necessarily the same thing. A blockchain is a way of adding blocks that, you know, and an NFT isn't necessarily a distributed ledger, right? But it uses a blockchain to record that smart contracts, etc. The more I thought about it, the more I'm like, I'm not sure if you introduce more confusion by separating these two often. It's a great point. I'm just not sure we're there yet because I couldn't think of a whole lot of examples of a distributed ledger that isn't a blockchain. Well, I've always thought of this, the two as, yes, they overlap a lot that the blockchain is more of the conceptual way to think of how this works. And a ledger is a ledger that relates to something specific. Well, the distributed ledger, in particular, is what's important here. I mean, you can, you know, I know we're not talking about physical goods, although there are crypto ledgers. Very physical. But yeah, the ledger is kind of like that. This is the thing. This is the noun, you know, that that I'm using to describe this, you know, the set of data. The blockchain is more of this all encompassing way to describe lots of ledgers. Yeah, the distributed ledger is as I'm usually using it. And I hope this is right is for Bitcoin. There's a distributed ledger that says who owns how many Bitcoin, right? And you shout into the room of accounts until over half of them record the transaction by adding the block. That's the ledger. The block chain is what comes out of that shouting, right? That's that's the chain that everybody finally agrees. OK, this is the chain and the block is in there. Can she's not can she's not wrong at all? There is a difference. I'm not sure how useful describing the difference is yet. But the fact that Kenji's asking and we're thinking about it, that means like, OK, we're getting close. There are going to be more and more examples of a blockchain that doesn't use a distributed ledger like NFTs. Although, arguably, you could say the NFTs are even a distributed ledger of a sort because they're recording who owns the thing, right? But yes, there is there is a fundamental difference like Sarah was explaining that the blockchain is the platform. It's the it's the mechanics underneath and the ledger is what you're using the blockchain for. It's how you're getting the information into the blockchain. But very thought provoking email from Kenji. Thank you for that. Yeah. And if you have thoughts on the blockchain and ledgers or anything that we talk about on the show, we would like to hear those thoughts because you're all very smart folks. Feedback at Daily Tech News Show is where to send those emails. We also wanted to thank our brand new bosses. Got two of them today, Kevin Sill and Martin Plouffe, who just started backing us on Patreon. Thank you, Kevin. And thank you, Martin. Yeah. Yeah. Is what you get, folks, when you join up. That's right. A lot of applause. Hardly. We're also going to applaud Ayaz Akhtar just for being himself, but also for being on the show with us today. We missed you. Ayaz, welcome back and let folks know where where they can keep up with everything else that you do. Missed you guys, too. So DTNS is one of my favorite shows to watch. So I will be on that more and more and more if I can let them let me on there. Also, go to CNET.com because I've done a ton of buyers guide videos trying to get a soundbar or TV, Bluetooth speakers, whatever. You're going to see my face explaining what you should know before you buy something. So go to CNET.com. Check out our buyers guides because the holidays are coming up and you need to know what to buy. Well, we are live on this show Monday through Friday. If you didn't know, now you know, 4 30 p.m. Eastern 21 30 UTC and you can find out more at daily tech news show dot com slash live. We'll be back tomorrow with Scott Johnson. Talk to you then. I hope you have enjoyed this program.