 So the agenda for the diversity high session is to accomplish the goals which we want to cover throughout the year. So mainly focus for the diversity team is to include the diverse people in the community as the contributor, as the user. So we would like to have people included in the Fedora community from different backgrounds from underrepresented groups. So we want to increase the numbers of, like women are less in the numbers in Fedora community as such. So though the numbers are increasing year by year, but we would like to do a few efforts in that particular direction so that we can onboard more women in the Fedora community. So for that we have an event called Fedora Women Day. So it's not just one event, focus on one day, but throughout the year we want to spend such efforts to engage more women in the community. And the other event we have is LGBT, which is bisexual, the different genders. So without their background, in spite of from which background they are, what their sexuality is, so we would like to include them and we want to showcase that by celebrating this particular day that Fedora is an inclusive community and they welcome everybody in spite of what their preferences are. So similarly we have more days like disability day, philosophy, and similarly there are more other days which we can include, but as we have limited time, only 12 months in a year. So we would like to do quality work rather than the quantity work. So we have started Fedora Women Day last year, or last year we did it like three places. So it was in India, in Greece, in Argentina. So it was in three different places in the world at the same time and this year we are doing it at the seven places during the same month. So it is increasing year by year. We are not increasing the number of events we want to focus on. We are increasing the places where we want to have these events more. So it is not easy and we limited on the budget as well to fly people from here and there to organize these kind of events. So if you have knowledge of Fedora, you are a Fedora contributor and you speak about Fedora, you can spread the knowledge about Fedora, you can help us organize these events, then you are more than welcome and we can have these events at your local places. So that we can achieve that agenda of what we have to onboard more and more women. So keeping in mind that this is a Fedora Women Day, it is not restricted only to women, but we would like to have women present in more number during these events. So we would like to have your feedback, what other events we can have if you know if there are some specific days like disability day or any other day which we can include as a diversity team in our events collection. So this is some background context of this too. So Fedora Women Day is one of the first things that we started organizing just because in the very beginning when we were trying to get organized and come up with like what does diversity, what does it mean to have a diverse community? That's a huge, huge topic that's really hard to breach. So what I mean I did mention earlier was that Fedora Women Day was just us trying to narrow our scope down to something more realistic as one target audience that we could focus on explicitly. So in this case, Fedora Women Day is that attempt to try to engage and bring more women into the Fedora community. The other two that we have like LGBT disabilities aren't exclusively limited to women of course. But that's kind of like the overarching goal of like these kind of events are new topics or new kind of things that we haven't done traditionally in Fedora before. So that's kind of one of the overarching goals of this session is to try to bring structure and organization for how we're planning and executing these events. So even if we're missing out on this another group that we'd like to try to target and reach out to, we'd like to try to come up with a structure that we can replicate and reproduce. So if we decide, if we want to try to reach out to another type of underrepresented group in technology or open source, ideally we could just lift the things that we do for Fedora Women Day or for something like an LGBT event or the disability awareness day event and apply that to something else. So generally, correct me if I'm wrong or maybe it is, but I think one of the things that we really would like to try to do in this session is bring some structure and organization to how we're planning and executing those events. So that way it's easy for us, the organizers to review these things and help provide the resources and information for people to organize them. And then people who are interested in hosting these events or doing these in their own communities would be like, oh, this isn't that hard to organize or I can do this. We want to help make it easier for people who want to organize these things to feel like they are capable of doing that. That's right. So there is a lot of information and there are people who need that information. For example, outreach. Not every woman or the woman who needs that kind of support doesn't know about it. So when we preach about Fedora Women Day, it explicitly says that there is something for women in there, especially. So it tracks the more female candidates to join that particular event. And during these events, we can speak about these special things which are arranged for females, like outreach program is there. So we can tell them, okay, this is something which you can pursue. You can think about it. So that is how we can go about these events. But there are many more things than that. You want to say something? No, no. So this time we focused on few colleges and in other countries, we are inviting the women in this particular event and we are talking about certain talks like introduction to Fedora, what other things are. So the aim is not onboarding people to the diversity team during these events. The aim is to onboard the people and tell them what Fedora has. It has a design team. It has a documentation team. It has a developers team. It has engineering team. So QA team, wherever you want to join, what is your interest? According to that, you can join. And these are policies and these are the things which we offer for you. And other than that, we also would like to have this event nicely spread over the year. It should not be within one month or close month. So that we also get time to arrange these events properly. And it would be better to have our presence throughout the year rather than some specific months. So that is what my point is. So coming back to the events, which we like to focus as Fedora Women Day is there already. So LGBTQA, we have done this event this year on May. So LGBT Day, as far as other things are coming up in the near horizon, LGBT Day was in May. The other event that we kind of have highlighted onto our general calendar of things you want to consider, International Day of Persons with Disabilities is on Saturday, December 3rd. So that is one kind of event that we had also kind of earmarked as something we could try to organize something for. But I think we really kind of wanted to try to bring some kind of structure, planning structure, both for organizing and for people planning. So who are our ambassadors? So I believe you have experience in organizing events at your place. So you can actually help us to organize these events at your place locally so that we can pull out more number of events like this at the different places in the world. So as to define your structure, we would like to first define when we want to do it, month. So defining the key criteria for what it means to organize an event. So yeah, I guess it's going to be helpful for the ambassador's conduct of the event organization process, right? What key information do we, the organizers need and what key information does someone who wants to organize one of these needs to know? Also we would like to, how are you going to set the objective for these events? The objectives are already there, but how we can expand them and how are you going to calculate the impact? So ambassador already doing so many events in the past. How generally do you see the impact? I mean how you see an event was successful, less successful or can be improved or stuff like that. So we can do it every year, but then we need to come up with certain results like are we making an impact or are we going in the direction where our objectives can be achieved. So how do you do that? How do you measure that impact while you do the event? And how much time do you give to a particular event if it is regularly happening? Onboarding is one aspect, I would say. So what else do you feel can be the right thing to do? So this isn't a direct answer to your question, but something that I'm concerned about with creating one method using across different types of people is that there might be people, different demographics might be experiencing, they might be having different barriers to joining, getting into tech and so I don't think the same type of event might be successful in attracting all of those people. The reasons that women are barred from tech in a lot of cases are probably different than reasons that someone with a disability might be. And so I just wonder if making a structure that works for one group would really be successful for another group. Because, yeah, and I think, and obviously that's the point of this, you're talking to people that kind of see maybe what barriers were, what people went around to get into the community, but I don't really, I mean, I don't know, but I don't really see anyone here with any extreme physical disabilities that can really speak for that group of people. But I mean, I guess the word disability is kind of, it's a tough one because there's different types of disabilities that are not always visible. What does that even really mean when you say you have a disability today? Who are you actually targeting? Are you targeting people with limited mobility or are you targeting people with like emotional issues like mental illness? I don't know, there's like different, there's a lot of difference. So this is a very broad term, disability. From the technical, where we work, the technical industry, it is more of, we were discussing it in Arch Linux IRC group that the people with hearing disability and visual disability, how we are targeting them, how we are developing our application in a way like if we record this talk, they cannot hear it properly or maybe cannot watch it properly. So what other ways we are opening for them so that they can understand what, and we can help them in that way. So this is one of the examples. So listening from them, it will open a road, a communication road that if we are celebrating a day, especially for disability things. So people who are related to that group will come to know what exactly it is. So that will open a road for the communication. So that is where we will get to know what we can do for them, what more we can do for them. I think, I worry that the word disability is way too broad and a lot of people wouldn't come. For example, like people who are deaf or hearing impaired, there's an entire culture on it. A lot of people don't even consider it a disability. So I think, I can imagine the deaf community, at least what I know from Rochester, which it has a pretty large deaf community. I can imagine them not even wanting to come to a disability awareness day. They might come to a deaf celebration day, but I don't know, and I think it's probably different. I think disability is too broad personally. I think it should probably be more specific, like maybe a day that focuses on tech for the blind or a day that focuses on tech for the deaf, but those are two groups. That's my opinion. Finding it in a proper way will attract the right people. That's what you want to say. Maybe we can note down that one. Along similar lines. The sentence, the first sentence in the disability section is a little problematic because it suggests that it is up to folks who have disabilities to make it possible for them to be part of Fedora, whereas the actual reality should be that we're doing things to make sure they can be here. Like, look to our accessibility. Accessibility for visual impairment and deafness as part of websites and software and things like that. It shouldn't be them overcoming adversity. It should be we are appropriately doing things so that they can be here without having issues. Because with all the technology we have, we're at a great point to be able to have people easily access our stuff. It shouldn't be a, oh, you managed to get here. It should be, hey, welcome. You're welcome here too. Right. So how do you think that what actually we should be doing? It has to be an event where people should be invited in person or it can be a virtual event on the Internet. How do you think it will help more? As you say, there is a community which, a big community in your city. So how do they actually have the events? Are they meet and person more often or how it works for them? I don't know because I'm not actually part of the deaf community. It seems like there's a lot of in-person things because communication is probably easier in-person with signing. But I mean, people do a lot of video chatting too. So I think, although it's hard to imagine, well, I don't know, it might be cool to have an online conference where people, the whole thing wasn't signed. Then again, if this is global, there is different sign language. Sign languages. I don't know who would have to have like an American one like for ASL and I don't even know all the other ones across the world. I think the other part of the answer to that question might be how good is the software in Fedora making it possible for folks who have various disabilities to use the software? If it is really bad, it has to be a person at least first because it's not going to be a useful conference. So I think that initially perhaps a good idea might be having maybe specific disabilities, maybe not, but having something where you're like, hey, we would love to talk to you about what kind of things we are doing very well. Rather than, hey, thanks for taking the trouble to be here. What can we do to help you? What can we do to make things work better for you so that you don't have to be using technology well? Maybe instead of being in, hey, the university, yay, can you help us make this better for you? I would suggest focusing first on events where we already have people who are here who are participating in Fedora or who have experience with the diversity team who can be a useful place between us and the community we're trying to reach out to. So I know that that is why we are doing our little stuff for women, but I think that's also an opening that if anybody here is like, you have special knowledge and special connection to the community, I would be able to reach out to the diversity team that would like to work with you to do that. But if you don't have any connection, I would say it's easy for us to come into the deaf community and say, we will create a Fedora event. We need a person from the community who is knowledgeable about Fedora who is appealed by doing diversity events and that's definitely what we're going to do. Yeah, because it will take a lot of efforts to first make that connection with the local community and then starting anything else. It will save a lot of time if we have some local person. So if you have a good connection with the local community over there or you know any person who has the connections and who is interested to help us out. Someone from my, Steven Jacobs at RIT who is involved in the FOS, I think it's called FOS and Magic program. I mean, he's very involved in the deaf community and he actually runs a FOS community at RIT. Maybe he would be a person to ask. I don't know. I actually have a few of your comments. I remember a few times when I was working at FOS and Magic, there were deaf students doing co-ops and stuff. And since he speaks and he signs. There were a few actually. Do you guys know what are they called? The XO Laptops. One laptop per child. Yeah, one laptop per child. A bunch of us had been working on projects for it at RIT and one of the people who had won a fellowship to do it was deaf and he was actually working on a teleconferencing act for it specifically with his background knowledge. Or it was even more than that. It was a translator app. I think it listened to what people were saying and wrote it out. For closed captioning and stuff. I think there have been specific examples of people being involved and that's indirectly Fedora, because XO Laptops runs Fedora. It's a separate, it's sugar, but it's a branch of Fedora, I think. There probably are examples of specific people who have done projects for Fedora who are deaf or even specifically designing software for the deaf. Like him, I forget his name though. Yeah, I don't remember. I'd have to go back. Do you get in that sugar wiki? Yeah. When you talk about including LGBT folks, you're just trying to make it obvious to make me part of this and be welcome. What's that? You're just trying to make it clear that folks can be part of Fedora's community and be welcome. Is that the goal there? Yeah, that's not only the goal. We ask them what we can, like you said, what we can do better in Fedora to make them comfortable as the community, the part of the community. So when we did it this year, one major thing came out during the discussion was that the person who already from this LGBTQA group, he said that he would rather join a community, open source community, who exclusively or specifically says in the Code of Conduct or somewhere that we are open for the people in spite of their background, no matter if they are from the LGBTQA section or from any other background. So yeah, any other underrepresented group. We welcome them and they are as equal as anybody else in the community. So they would like to join that community where these things are specifically mentioned. So this is where we find the scope of including this thing somewhere as a part of the Fedora documentation or the Code of Conduct or somewhere where we exclusively include this term that we are open to these groups as well. So I'm actually, I'm LGBT. I would expect that not only do you need that, people are welcome, but what will we do if people behave in ways that are not welcome? Yeah, because we need both. And we need to actually be like, okay, what is our goal here? What is our overall plan for when somebody is not a good person? Do we warn them once a week to kick them out? And we actually do those things. Yeah, I agree. There was a long post after the event. It was event report published on the community blog post on Fedora when we celebrated this day. And there was the points and the outcomes we have concluded from the event. So one of the point was that we need to, you know, improvise or we need to detail, write the Code of Conduct or these policy in little more detail to be, you know, to be in that term, to be there, to show that, yes, there are things and there are the policies. If someone is rudely behaving or not asking the appropriate questions and making you uncomfortable to be the part of the community, then what all actions are there, which we can take. So the Council, Fedora Council team has taken over that responsibility. That they're going to work on that particular thing to drafting those policies. I think Bex would like to add... There's a Council meeting on Friday where actually the reason it's close to Council meeting is because we're addressing a lot of those issues that have been raised through the process, which today is going to be a private Council meeting. There's also an open Council ticket to improve the knowledge of the reporting process because, frankly, we did a great job saying be nice. We did a terrible job telling you how to tell us when someone wasn't nice. And I'm glossing over large parts of that statement. So we have an open issue there to fix that. And it's just... It's died not out of lack of concern. It's honestly not a bandwidth issue. But that is something that we are deliberately using the opportunity because all the one Council members at Flock to take advantage of. We're all in the same room. We can sit down and do this and focus on this particular effort. I think that that is critical because I participated in the video conference about the university thing, and that was actually one of the things that I walked away with personally that was very interesting to me because of my cultural background and, frankly, just the kind of person that I am as a human being. The idea that there was a notice board that said we welcome you was not an important factor to me, but realizing that that was something that was critical from other backgrounds, other processes has made this very important. You may already have seen a discussion on Twitter about some of these experiences with making rules and regulations in the community and how we need to actually have specific goals that those rules are trying to cover so that if the rules don't cover it, you can go to the rules lawyer and where are our actual goals here? So one of the things that we've done with the Code of Conduct with Nora and there's been some debate around this, the Council has deliberately tried to be these are what we want people to behave like so that we don't get into two problems. The first being the rules, the rules law. Well, that's not technically a violation even though it's offensive to all of humanity. The second piece was we also wanted to make sure that the Code of Conduct did not become weaponized where someone attempted to use it as an attack against someone to go, okay, I have now constructed a situation where I've got you an IRC saying these seven words in a row and even though it's clear from context you had noted offensive desire, I can now rules law you into a violation. So we've been trying to satisfy both sides. The problem is that then people go, well, you were so vague, it's unclear that you actually were trying to welcome me. So it's a very huge tough challenge and no one has solved this problem well in my opinion. I think the Council is extraordinarily open to better suggestions. We've done a terrible job being responsive. I'm going to own that as a Council member and I'm going to, and the newest Council member but like, I think the Council is deliberately trying to figure out how to do a better job being responsive here. We have thankfully as a community not had serious diversity style Code of Conduct issues. We've had, stopped being an asshole style Code of Conduct issues. It's important that you see the job. No? What is the, is there a guideline that not to add fewer issues there? It's not just the door that diversity is what I know. I should have probably made it shorter. Yes. I'm going to go with you. I could just actually just move this all to the Fidora Dash diversity. No, no, no. Save it on IRC. Yeah, I'll put it on the IRC channel too for anyone that's watching. I would like to add that, so putting on my Council person, I kind of pushed with the discussion. No, that's fine, I'm not upset. One of the things that I hear from Council, one of the things that I see in other parts of our project is that I would like us to not only have an increasingly diverse contributor community, but I would like to ensure that when we attract anyone to our community, regardless of why they can choose to join, they have a path towards success. And so, like, if we were to go out and just attract, like, an eight-year-old child, because I don't think anyone can tell me that that doesn't represent a potential user audience, that eight-year-old child is not going to find a lot of success in our community. We don't do a lot of things towards children. We don't really have that kind of user support system. So I'd like to make sure that when we're thinking about diversity, that we think about how once someone has felt comfortable to join our community, there's actually something for them to do. And I think that that may also be some of the comments you were saying, like, about different constituencies having different goals and the ways that they talk about their willingness to be involved in communities. It may not just be that we wish to celebrate deafness as you brought up, but we wish to celebrate deaf programmers and why deaf developers should come and make modularity a massive success to kind of pick on that. Why we need visually impaired designers. Sure. I think specificity is really important. I think actually, I don't know, my opinion, you don't have obviously to you guys can decide, but I think disability day is kind of a bad idea. I don't think that's going to attract anyone. It sounds kind of negative. I think a lot of people who totally abled people see as having disabilities, they don't see themselves as having disabilities. People don't really like to say, I mean some people do. I don't know. I think different people in disability day might just be offensive. I think it is the term which is already existing. We have not created it. It is the international disability day. Yeah, which is which the international day of persons and disabilities which is December 30th. Yeah, but I think what Jen is saying is that maybe in the context of the fedora community and how we want to attract people, this is not the best holiday for us to follow but instead we should work with individual communities and do like a celebration of contributions by deaf people to fedora. Celebration of people with mobility differences to contribute to fedora to be more specific. So on that line, maybe we can do for the first year when we start celebrating the disability for the hearing-backed people and then for the next year before we should be aware of people something like this that we can do for that. I just wondered, I definitely think too that Marina's comment earlier about focusing on target areas where we have the resources and people who are contributing to work on those things. I just think of age again as a big target area that we could try to make what did you say? Age is kind of for people who are like mothers or are older and have a harder time getting into open source communities and I feel like that's something that we have we have people and resources where we would be better able to have experience in those areas than perhaps. I'm just really thinking now I definitely follow the train of thought with disabilities day and subcategories because I think it would be very hard for us I really liked it too we're creating an event for you we want to create an event with you and have someone who can identify and represent that community so even if it's not like a recognized day I don't know of anything like that for like an age-oriented kind of international recognized day I think just doing something on our own would be cool but I think that might actually be a really nice idea for a type of event that we could realistically organize either 2018 or late 2017 in place of disabilities day awareness but I don't know I feel like that's something that we could definitely do just because we have the people and resources to experience the experience of people who are part of that not just someone that's you know 20 year old being hey we want to have older people in fedora that's true one more thing I wanted to mention here like for example why we do a lot of things within our groups we have different groups in fedora so for example in the messager group there was a mail that we need to clean up the group or there are other messagers who are inactive from some time and this is the time period they were inactive and we need to clean up the group and stuff like that so we also need to consider few things regarding even if a woman is doing a job a permanent job in a company and she is pregnant or she has a baby she is getting a in some countries it is six months now six months maternity paid leave so why we are coming up with these policies that we are looking at the face account for how long this person is active or inactive we need to consider these things as well that if it is it was a woman who just have a child and on the maternity leave so we don't count her as the inactive member of the community and the basis of that we don't take any such action so for this part I mean from ambassadors what we have done is to see the last year if they have been inactive that means if they even haven't opened their face account so it's not that we see for example if they have contributed to one of the sub-projects but it's mostly even just to open your face account or do they join the IRC channels so I I'll just talk to the others one of the things that happens is an ambassador when remark is active you are listed as a point of contact for the project in the country that I live in women and men who get life up to four years of leave upon the birth of a child you know if someone is going to be away for four years focused completely on their family I do not think it is unreasonable to say we don't think we should continue to list you as a point of contact for the project when you have no intentions of responding to that it's not that you're a bad human being the word active is perhaps loaded here and we need to unload that term in the same way that I would say if someone goes I broke my leg and I'm going to spend in three months of rehab full-time I should no longer be a blocking vote on the council that's not a statement of me and my value as a human being that is a how do we function as an organizational unit so I would strongly encourage us to not overload terminology like that because names are hard so I would encourage us not to do that if on the other hand we have situations where someone goes oh she's pregnant therefore her opinions are now null and void that's a completely different issue that we should address and investors know there's an onboarding process and I guess if you're on leave for any reason you should not have to you know repeat the onboarding process and I guess we might have been investors in acting yeah that's true but then as Beck said the example you have given in that case if a portion is coming up and telling that this is the situation with me and I want to take a break of four years then it is fine in that situation but if someone is saying that okay this is the family responsibility I have but I would like to contribute but my contribution with level will go down with the bandwidth I can spare for the other I will go a little down then in that cases maybe we can consider the cases I think that's already project standard policy there was somebody who recently posted the exact same thing that Bell was about the packages like I don't think anyone in our project would be an explicit statement but I think anyone in the project says oh if you have reduced you've said you want to reduce you're therefore out I'm not aware of that if there is I would like to have a council take it open on that so we can fix that that is one example and I mean diversity has a teen policy about this and you all should be addressing this I don't mean to make it than us versus them but as a teen if we have a policy we can fix that as a teen but I'm not aware of that being a problem in other areas of the project and if it is we should service that and fix it I had another thought it was a little separate but have you guys thought about leveraging other successful tech diversity communities and kind of nudging in so an example is a woman who code I've noticed has gained a ton of traction in the past few years and they're in a lot of different cities they have I think free classes maybe because some Fedora people volunteer to do a Python class in the context of Fedora and I think I don't think it has to be a female teacher either so I could be any one of them offering that class it started last this year only it started in my city women who code and I was a panel member for their event and I represented Fedora over there and now they are having different classes like Python and we had I communicated about Fedora classes as well over there so there are a bunch of women 10 women so on an average we get 8 active women in the event so during those events we do stuff so we are collaborating on that for intense and we have art linux women community as well so there also we are collaborating with them to know about what they are doing and one of them was ready to help us to have Fedora women in this election so we are doing that I actually really like the train of thought too that's something I thought about one of the problems we have is when we are going into planning some of these things we are kind of taking that load on to ourselves and we are trying to it feels like we are starting from ground zero for that when you say it it makes a lot of sense to combine women who code and a lot of these other initiatives I don't know I just think it's a totally different strategy for how we could execute events without having to put such a heavy load on ourselves to figure some of these hard questions out when there is already large established communities representing to me that's like wow that's a really good idea why haven't we thought about that yet but just to me I think that is actually it could be a really cool idea for how we try to take this strategically to a wider point of view too I think it would be much easier for us to combine forces with someone that is already doing a monthly event to have a fedora spotlight have something about fedora going on too to me I think that's awesome as I mentioned we cannot make people fly every other month so if you have the local people doing it and you are already involved in figuring out you can join there so that puts in that magic you know to be good for us so maybe I'm not a metric but you guys are looking for systematic ways of doing this so maybe I'm not an ambassador and I'm not incredibly involved but maybe ambassadors who are interested in diversity you can recommend them find a local tech need up and attend or I'm just using the women who code example but those other hacker spaces where they're looking for people to run classes and if you're offering to run a free class where people don't have to pay to get in I think they would be like please come and give us content for free while you're also getting something out of it because you're getting their community attention so we're getting the attention of a community that meets the model of the kind of people that are successful as contributors which I think is a huge huge win if we're not able to create specific value by going alone there's no reason to go alone it should usually open source model and collaborate that's a good point, that's funny that's actually very open source it makes sense scroll down, I just wanted to say that I finished adding a couple of resources that I think might be of interest to people so Mozilla did research a lot of the research about their community and the state of diversity in their community and Emma Emma Urban wrote up those four local posts which are very insightful about different topics, like in parentheses they've tried to highlight some of the things that are the ones that were like about finding out what identity groups like women in Mozilla men felt like men's different locations and launching some initiative to provide organizational guidance for identity groups another one was about reaching diverse audiences that's most specifically focused on accessibility to people who English is not their first language and might have a language barrier and then the last blog post is about their community participation guidelines exactly that's their product for community participation and so I think their community participation guidelines have had a lot to do so it's a good model for the council to look at and I specifically also put it on community participation guidelines for community participation and we want to try to put a cap on the events part of this discussion and move on to something else I think would be helpful for us if we could try to get more of some concrete actions or things that we could try to do over the next few months or events I think for us, from my point of view I think that would be really helpful cause I may have to start these tomorrow but adding that idea that we won probably six month plan with regards to events things that we'd like to try to do to me, I almost feel like with the exception of federal women day I think I'd almost rather from my point of view, I think I'd rather avoid us having to do the heavy work and weight of organizing our own events and capitalize I just think of when I was in Chicago there's all kinds of communities for underrepresented groups and I feel like it's not just Chicago So I do have a public question I'm not sure if it has been discussed before but have we considered renaming Fedora Women Day to something a little bit more diverse So in the beginning we had talked about when we were identifying our target audiences like when the diversity team was first founded we were like, wow, diversity how do we make Fedora more diverse and so we were kind of basing it off of the people that we had on our core team of contributors for identifying target audiences that we thought we could reach out to and have an impact with as well as narrowing our scope down to something that isn't diversity and open source So for us it was women that was one target audience we had women who were on our team we felt that we could engage with that group better so that was just kind of a way for us to narrow our scope down to something that was realistic and feel like we could actually do something with and that's what we were saying we had some other ideas like LGBT that were some of the planning of the events that we would do it'd be that we could take that framework and just apply that to something else so it's not that we're like women only sorry, that's diversity it's rather like we were more than happy to engage better with other groups or communities but we just need we need a contributor who is ideally part of that underrepresented group and has the time and bandwidth to help organize something so for Fedora Women Day it's just because if someone else has an idea and they think they could help out with that we wouldn't say no it would just help if we have someone who could help represent that group so if you have an idea too you can just throw it out and that's your question so then from my point of view for this next six month I almost think I'd rather avoid with the exception of Fedora Women Day I'd rather avoid us with the work of organizing the event and doing something inclusive to Fedora I feel like it would be really awesome for us to try to spend more time finding local communities that are working underrepresented groups in tech and see if we can engage from our core contributors or people even outside like we did for Women Day from South America and Asia and Europe I think that would just be really a core strategy for event outreach to me is like a win-win to me it's like we would like to do that only if a certain city doesn't have that person who wants to do the event doesn't have that connectivity with any such tech group so I don't know how many they want to exclusively have these events in the collaboration only or we allow the people to have it as a Women Day aspect even if they are not connecting with anybody I'm kind of like putting through our Women Day like in its own category I just think it's like other groups that we aren't targeting or that we're trying to figure out how we engage with for me like in the US I can look online I can go to meetup.com and I can find these communities and I can answer that community like hey I'm in their community I'd like to talk about this topic with your community and they'd be like yeah that'd be great that'd be awesome we'd love to have that I don't know if it would be the same for you like in Europe like in India from my point of view and maybe this would be part of a different discussion like different regions might have different things that work well but in the US that's like wow we're doing it all from scratch because then we will have a help to do all these things and you have the audience so to me I think that would be a really nice thing for us to do more research on and within that 6 month goal plan doing more research on local communities I also think kind of related to the events maybe we can have this take it open in diversity to find out these communities and list them out somewhere like Wikipedia so that people will the new people who don't need to spend time to find out the different communities that is already listed and to that point too kind of going off of this previous discussion I have with Brian with regards to pushing content off of the wiki and into a more static place on like Fedora docs they're community focused I think that would be a really cool resource for us to try to maintain about communities that we have a relationship with just like in North America we have a list of vendors that we order things from that we buy things from I think it would be cool to have a list of communities that we have engaged with we have worked with this community and we would like to collaborate so I see that as like two deliverables here would be one trying to find a list of communities and then putting it somewhere where we can make it accessible to people within the project there might even be ambassadors who are like to me I'm thinking as an ambassador this would be a really nice thing for me to do without having to pay a lot of money to go and represent Fedora so I think that list would be useful outside of just the diversity team so I think it would be a good deliverable out of this so you can have the action I'll go and make a note of this but as far as like the event side of this discussion go do we want to have anything else in like the six month plan other than doing research on the local for this topic only when we say collaborate we are doing the Fedora Fedora badges for the devil's woman we are doing the posters so all these things are exclusive to the Fedora so I'm not sure if we do it in collaboration with other I see so with regards to measuring our impact it's excessive those events impact also and do we we will be able to use all those things there I think Brian I'd say yes 100% yes we would only do the door specific a lot of the door events all over the world we would only offer the door badges that have been told in the world that are not organized or branded as Fedora and it is a great way to measure impact I mean especially I would say in this area it's a great way because we even show for example that collaboration with women because we led to the creation of 75 fast accounts of which nine remained active after six months or whatever I look at something like the articles that D wrote on the impact of getting out the Faustum badge for Faustum Fedora badge for Faustum an event that Fedora does not produce where we use Fedora specific collateral and Fedora badges so I think that's a fantastic way for this group to measure its impact that's something we're pushing ambassadors to do as well and I don't know if this would be better as an ambassador topic but it's still kind of relevant to our discussion too like I've been thinking about how do we measure impact and success at events how do we and like badges is one way of doing that but then I found like there's some places where it works really well like Faustum we've been able to draw concrete conclusions but then at like the one I went to like hack MIT like I felt we had a pretty like strong impact and engagement there but we only had nine people take the badge right so my point I'm saying I'm trying to think of other ways that we could try to measure our success we have someone who sent a mail just now to have the Fedora Women Day with Ubuntu women in collaboration with Ubuntu women Emani is a person from Calcutta she did it even last year so she wanted to organize the Fedora Women Day with Ubuntu women so this is what kind of thing we are doing that's fine with that I don't have a problem with cooperating with our friends at Ubuntu yeah, if Ubuntu women's day happens to be focused on female educators in an area of topic that we have nothing to do with then I would evaluate the event as maybe a pass solely because of target audience but if Ubuntu is trying to grow its female contributor base and we want to grow our female contributor base there is absolutely no reason not to work together with those guys hey, I think that's fine there are no sacred cows here as far as I'm concerned we have absolutely how do we it's a question so if we have a Fedora Exclusive event we can ask them to introduce themselves from the Fedora Women mailing list we can ask them to if you are interested you can choose the area of according to the area of interest you can choose a team like Fedora Design so we can communicate these things when it is a Fedora Exclusive event and then then we calculate the impact according to how many responses we are getting up to the event so if it is in the collaboration how are we going to calculate that impact or how are we going to why wouldn't you say the same thing I mean maybe I'm missing something and I'm very happy to be told what I'm missing but I have no problem showing up at a Debian event if you would like to participate in your community we can ask you to do these things like if we are doing it in collaboration I wouldn't just walk into a Debian event like stuck with Fedora stickers all over my body I'm sorry you couldn't see that would be really rude and inappropriate but you know like if we are collaborating on a shared event with Ubuntu I think it's completely reasonable for us to go we have these resources in our community this is how we encourage people to figure out how to contribute if you'd like to talk to other people who may have similar backgrounds cultures etc with you this is a way to connect with those people there's nothing wrong with that I mean you see that in areas of technology when Josh Berkusen through go to KubeCon and give a talk about Project Atomic they don't not talk about how to buy a project atomic I think that blending that is critical is that we remember what we are trying to do here has a very specialized focus but this does not mean we shouldn't learn lessons from people who do things that are very very similar a high level of cooperation with ambassadors is important a high level of cooperation with marketing is important those folks have learned a lot of lessons that can help us improve and amplify the message that we are trying to send for diversity and people like women who code can tell us a whole lot about finding people who should definitely learn from them as well exactly specifically about this event that AMI me sent it is a software free don't they so I mean what would they sell there is to kind of advertise it as including a celebration of women who contribute to free software with representatives from Ubuntu and Fedora with diversity with representatives from Ubuntu and Fedora so we would like we would like to communicate to her that if we you want to do it in collaboration this is how I mean it would just depend on what it is but I mean it sounds like she is just a corporonizer of the software freedom day and she is looking at how to incorporate a women celebration aspect to the software freedom day so it wouldn't be like a requirement but I have to say as a recommendation I would say she doesn't even need to narrow to narrow to Ubuntu and Fedora women because I think she wants to happen and she wants women who are interested in free software to come to the event but she also has people from the Ubuntu and Fedora community who are going to be there so just a way to message it just a suggestion in order to message it so we do you think we should be or invest in our time and efforts to formalize all these things somewhere where somebody wants to do it in collaboration with other community that these are the guidelines which one should follow whether they are spending time or replying to an individual person for now it is fine but for future events I don't want to swamp on anybody I apologize is it Suzanne? we've never met in person but I've seen your name a lot so as Suzanne was saying about the idea with conduct where we want to not only have guidelines but we want to have goals and we understand how to interpret gray areas it has been my experience that it would be better for us to go ahead of our general objectives and let people help us work with them to fit these ideas of collaboration together because if we create too much structure we're going to probably run into two problems which is one people will self select a way they will look at our violence bill well I clearly don't fit so I'm not going to come and instead we wanted to work with you and then the other side of that is reality is no one is ever going to do with you personally it is just the rule of the world and I don't happen to know Professor Mani but she ain't going to read what you wrote and so as a consequence you're going to have to answer her email anyway so don't develop a giant guideline that burns so much of your time and then you have to write the word I would please I disagree I would say that it's a good idea to have a structure some information not to find these structures and to capture best practices that's good but having a feed that we encourage door investors to find appropriate diversity and focus and represent the door as diversity and focus I think we absolutely need to have that on the again captured and if we think of other guidelines like best practices we can list them there but we can also write them we can make it clear that those are not exclusive of the final games they're just a kind of idea and people should email us with questions but also sometimes they I guess I do it a lot for us I feel like I respond to specific questions about how their community can participate all the time but I also feel like I can also send them to certain lengths they might not read those lengths and come back to me with questions but at least I feel like you haven't really yet exactly so that was the point that we can refer that link to someone and we also don't want to be in the situation which I don't know which can arise which cannot arise but in the worst cases where someone is doing some other event just say come up and say that as they say that helping them with some financial help and they just say that we are doing this event and we need help for the people of movement day and we are collaborating there and they don't even mention the people running over there during the event so with that we need to have some few guidelines or to follow absolutely I think actually we're all real in the same page on violent labour what I've heard in your original comment that there have been in this year was I would develop a large formalized structure which one must and that I would be opposed to and it sounds like you're not suggesting we build that either so I think we're all in the same page yeah I was just after what I said about how it sounds like it's a separate freedom day she just wants to celebrate fedora women she just wants to celebrate women in free software she doesn't want to go representative I was just thinking like I mean if you're interested in some budget from fedora right you also need to I mean I guess this is a question and Brian the question for you is where would you draw a line in how representative of diversity can be to receive budget I would ask the diversity team because it's more than likely going to be approved by the diversity team so the diversity team needs to value at the impact of the event it's alignment with the fedora project goals and objectives it's alignment with the diversity team's goals and objectives and make a decision more than it's actually really love about what the fedora project is I don't understand those questions because we really do trust through a highly distributed process we trust individual groups that are close to the issue to make those calls and in this case you all might go okay we feel like this is worth $50 not $50,000 and that's wrong so as long as you feel like you can write the report about it and say wow we spent the money this way we're good being a good free software community citizen I mean I feel like there's value to a messaging as a congressional women and free software with the fedora representatives but from the fedora's perspective maybe we wanted to maybe we wanted to be in the budgerigar fedora women women event adds up to freedom it's just a different messaging and so I mean I don't know if there's no big question but I get the question for our side I'm like what is the messaging we expect if we provide the fund exactly so there should be at least 3-4 lines we see that event has these things like you said the title of the event should have at least fedora mention in the title of the event well title of the event I don't think that it's important to have fedora as the title okay if the organizer would say what she wants to achieve with that event we think that it's important for us as a team that I don't see the problem in the title but mostly what they want to achieve with that event I think that this has been recently discussed again I mean we can just go to a Debian event with our fedora and just talk about fedora diversity and that's what Brian said right we don't need to have fedora in the title but then how much then we need to decide that according to our present we want to invest also from the present perspective so that is also a question that comes up if we're investing could there be a sponsor or can we just sponsor the person who goes there and the sponsor I mean I do see this is our target audience people who show up to suck your freedom they out the doors so it just seems like it's a combination of factors such as alignment of stability and the impact of how big the audience will be my favorite example lawnmower farmers lawnmower farmers are an important group of people in the universe without them we wouldn't have lawnmowers and someone might come along and say there are things that we can do specifically tune with the right software to help lawnmower farmers if anybody is here from Peru I apologize and that's fine and we as the DOA project want to support those people who come in and want to create a lab or a spin or whatever for lawnmower farmers but we may not give them any money to go to the international lawnmower farming convention because at that point they're talking to their audience it's not necessarily completely in alignment with Fedora and I think that you can look at this the same way and you know how does this audience align so you know we might send a set of stickers to somebody who's doing a generic targeted towards a diverse audience event and we might send a representative to someone who's doing an audience that's targeted specifically to diverse plus R alignment and those are both okay so do you again coming back to this thing so do you think we need to come up sorry I was just saying inside of some of the lab do you think we have to have a structure or the defined format that we're going to approve from the budget perspective for such a collaborative event or we define the amount because we already have a limited budget for everything so we have to define that this certain amount we would like to put in this event for this year so this is the limit for the amount we would like to spend for the certain event if it is exclusively for the Fedora event room and day then we would like to spend this much within this limit or if it is collaborative event then we have this much limit of potential events that the Fedora diverse team can participate in so how many are there not the collaborative one we have the list for the exclusive one for the exclusive one just for the external events that we are going to participate in not organize, just participate so how many are these events for example where are they what are your estimations so that's what I would like to say we should plan when there is when they are coming or they are arising or we should have a plan ahead before these events will come up so how does it work so what we would have been doing in the past in EMEA we have a list every year of events that we are going either to organize next year or attend the next fiscal year so basically we have it's not an accurate estimation but still it's an estimation of approximately how much money we are going to need for those events in EMEA and let's say we have 20 events in a year that cost, I don't know 30,000 euros but our participation cost 30,000 euros so that's one thing that you can consider planning ahead making a list of your events both local events market leaders and also conferences and a quick estimation of how much money you are going to need I'm going to counterpoint that very quickly to say I think that's a great process for EMEA I think it's a great process for a master's in general and I also go into the money that they did not do that the first few years because they had to figure out what they were going to do and so I would take it back and say the council is never going to block you if you run experiments the council is not going to block you if you try and figure it out as you go I would so much rather see two events launched between now and the end of the fiscal year between now and the end of the fiscal year we get bogged down and just trying to figure out what's going to happen there is not an unlimited pot of money in fedora but there is always more money for great ideas and so like if we sit down and we play this by year and we run out of money in the third quarter I bet you will find money in the fourth quarter because we'll take it from these guys globally that's actually what will happen because these guys are going to pick on you but they sat down and were a great project plan and by the end of the third quarter they set their budget by 3,000 euros because one event got cancelled and this started to be cheaper and oh look we actually had a guy in Berlin and that was where the conference managed to land that year so we saved the airfare and all of a sudden people show up and I convert 3,000 euros into a dollar badly so we'll pretend it's 3,000 dollars is suddenly available for diversity in the fourth quarter so again I think this is one of those things let's figure out what this means because everybody in this room lives somewhere and if everybody in this room holds one local or a collaborative event we'll never plan that budget well but we'll pretend that's the great timing but we don't want to define the limit that this is the certain line because say for example there's the weight of numbers so if I have 5,000 bucks for the whole year and I will spend 4500 in ferro rata woman day only the list of the events which I have defined in my calendar for the civilly day lgbt community and other events so I have left only for 500 so I would turn that back around and say hey that's not quite how much it's working for Dora because yeah there was the mythical 5 grand that diversity started with but in reality that 5 grand was a we are giving you this 5 grand to allocate not a this is the only money you will ever see show back up on a council ticket with a good reason to need more money you will get more money so it's not that your budget is limited to that 5 grand the other is and actually at the Dora women's day planning this year is a perfect example there are 3 events in India the diversity team decided that each event was a lot of 100 bucks that's actually not what's happening in India one of the events is spending like 150 and one of the events is spending 50 so if we had a hard and fast rule in the case that one of the Dora women's day events in India would have been cancelled because they went well we've exceeded this arbitrary number but in reality diversity team was very willing to work with them I don't want somebody to go my budget is $3 over and now I can't do it but I agree with you that it's reasonable to develop a set of because I can see Marina it's reasonable to develop a set of ideas that is like if you roll up on us and you have a generic event ask me for $100 and to say in the neighborhood of X dollars per event is where we're thinking come up with a good reason for more that's a perfectly great battle I just wouldn't sit down and go it's $47.22 so what I got from this discussion is we definitely can develop some guidelines but we have to be flexible on those guidelines when we see that we can more benefit out of this out of this particular event by investing a little more money so we should have guidelines plus we should have a flexibility as well to change those those guidelines according to the outcome we are yes every event is unique and different in its own way so what I would say is you go with your gut feeling every time you estimate the budget for a particular event for the location of the event how many people from the federal community you need to apply to that location what is your target audience there are so many factors so you cannot have strict guidelines for every event every event is unique you need to estimate on your own pretty much at least I believe that's what we have been doing in IMEA as ambassadors so while we are discussing this I will move back to impact so we were not here at that time we definitely would like to calculate the impact for example this is the maybe the experiment there this is the first year we are investing our money our efforts the person time is more important than the person flying for one location to another just in one day to speak about fedora diversity and fedora effort in the time over there so there are so many things we are investing just not the money so we need to calculate the impact if we are getting out something over there so for example the Calcutta one or the Bangalore one so if I go there and speak about fedora how do you generally calculate the impact so that I can continue doing I should I can decide on that I should continue doing that or I can calculate that this is not where I should put my efforts so how do you do that? I believe that's one of the main issues at least speaking for the fedora ambassadors right now we have not been able to precisely calculate to estimate the impact of our presence events conferences etc what we can try what would be a good idea is to have metrics okay you went to a conference how many people attended your talk let's say 200 people attended my talk how many people attended the conference in general so it was 5000 people in the conference but it turned out not only 200 people came to my talk although there was space for another 300 people another thing is how many people signed up for a badge in the fedora booth for example what about metrics when I attended an event one of the things that I do is I sit down afterwards and go would I ever return to this event and the answer to that question drives my blog post drives my answer to all of this and I think that a metric doesn't have to necessarily be a hard number it can literally be and I've written this about events it can literally be a yeah we went here wrong talk to bring but this was a fantastic audience but we showed up with the wrong thing and next year we need to go back but it needs to not be me it needs to be you and you need to bring the QA thing and that's fine like that's a simple way to you know get a gut feeling and sometimes you go somewhere and you're like yeah this was a whole lot of fun like I really enjoyed this we should not spend another dollar so in general in ambassador do we have certain metrics or certain you know tool to calculate these things? no not right now it's one of our huge issues I would say are we looking at we just have the blog reports that's it which is quantitative the qualitative way of measuring feedback in the in the best generally we need something to be more quantitative to be able to actually have some figures what's going on would you expand on that? when we were talking about in the come up session yesterday was actually developing like for the ambassador to fill out after an event was filling out some kind of like survey or form about this and ideally getting that kind of data from each bus or getting it somewhere that can be tracked and recorded in Fedora infrastructure proper it was something that we discussed I think I'd like to realistically pursue in the next few months because I think you're really I mean it's absolutely been mentioned before that there is a complete misrepresentation of the ambassador work in the Fedora projects infrastructure like Fed message so it was just the idea that we had yesterday was actually developing a form I don't know what tooling can be decided later but just the idea of having a form with questions and data that an ambassador would fill out post event evaluating it ideally with things that you could actually work with like some of the metrics tools we have like a number of badges scanned people who attended an approximate number of people at event and then using that somewhere else in the project that you can use to shoot in your opinion sponsors this again in the future stuff like that that would be super helpful and you know what's even worse do you guys know that there is an events wiki page Fedora wiki nobody at least speaking for me has been updating that wiki page that's the situation has been the same for like two years now we used to update that with information about events but it's not anymore happening it's hard to maintain the wiki page to clean it out afterwards but we have yet no records of Fedora events for some years now you're welcome that was the idea of the Fedora ambassador day or Fedora wiki page not only to plan events for the next few but also to do what we're leading you for the past few and I don't know if you had one so we to get details past events like country or you where people were saying some stuff about that come from about events if it's worse to go there again or skip that event and there are quite a few events that didn't depend on you what's the problem with this that information that you produced during the fact was served only among 20 or 30 people it was not recorded anywhere I just want to say really quick there is a session at 4pm specific for the ambassadors that will be perfect for this this is a great opportunity for the diversity team to lead within Fedora why don't you why don't we as a group why don't you take lead on this develop a set of seven questions we should ask everybody please write something that answers these seven questions if we develop that in diversity the ambassadors are highly likely to look at this and go they were really successful we love five of their questions we're going to change the last two let's take this as a leadership point instead of looking for somebody else to solve our problem this is a great one for us to lead on and I suspect that the four regions will come together and be collaborative on this because I think that's where we're going with this is how do we measure we don't know so we're going to start by asking five or six questions because I think that we could all figure out what those questions are so it could be a form or something like we fill the form I have tried really hard to get out of the schooling business even though I live in it my comment would be create a page somewhere in our documentation set but somewhere that goes if you do this we expect to see the seven answers send me an email to the mailing list ideally write a community blog post do something that gives us this data I believe they should be recorded somewhere as the event you said they are missing we don't want to miss out on these questions that's what I mean is if we know we funded an event we expect to see these seven questions answered yes we need to store it somewhere so that next time if we are taking decision whether we need to invest our efforts in this particular event we need to look up all those answers we cannot remember those answers if they are in a blog post we can put a link to the blog post on the event page that lists our past events here is the event report and then next year when it rolls around we go re-read those event reports I think it is the best idea to include those questionnaire within the blog post of the event absolutely if we ask a question we should want the answers because those blog post link will be there in the wiki page the event wiki page and we can always refer to them so the last thing we would like to discuss is how to within diversity like diversity are putting their efforts to onboard people in different groups that is fine we are supporting outreach efforts that is fine but as a group we would like to expand we would like to have more members in the group so ambassadors are there to help us how to carry out these efforts if we would like to have more members in the group what certain steps we would like a person to follow he has to be a fedora contributor already to be part of the diversity group or there are certain like for ambassadors we have a process to onboard a person so we are looking to design a simple a short process to onboard a new person for the fedora diversity team as well just to add on that there's two things I'd say like action items that we're trying to solve with this right now which is one that there's since now like there's different we wanted to find what does it mean to be a member of the diversity team what do we recognize what does it mean to be a contributor to the diversity team which we do have these steps that we had identified at the beginning of our team but we looked back to them earlier and some of them are confusing what does get bootstrapped mean the description for that is really vague we're also looking at things now we're trying to measure activity trying to figure out what it means to come up with a concrete set of material for when we know people already we also wanted to try to come up with ways of making it easier for people to contribute to the diversity team like easy fixed tasks low hanging fruit type of work that's something that we've been trying to figure out for a while just because a lot of the stuff that we're doing is this really big stuff that's really overwhelming if you're just trying to get involved for the first time and it can be a lot to try to catch up on if you're just getting started you're like wow I can't comment on any of this I can't help anything here so we just wanted to try to come up with ideas on ways that we could make it easier for people who are like diversity team I want to help we want to try to connect those people into our team into our community and feel like they can actually get involved and have an impact but our problems we're trying to figure out these small kinds of tasks that would be great for someone who just is getting started to work on so it's kind of two components so it's just kind of the two components to it is one we want to find come up with like ideas for things that are easier for newcomers to get involved with and the flip side which I guess they're kind of related but we also want to make it come up with this better criteria than what we have now about what does it mean to be a contributor to the diversity team what is that criteria so for now it is a very a small team with a very active people the members work a lot but then frankly we don't want to limit within these numbers we want more people to help us out not 50 or 60 people but at least 10 people in the team that we could the people continue and then they have some personal you know personal life as well they have some of them come to meetings some of them have something else to do so we should we have right balance of time in the efforts we are doing so if we see Fedora Bhumendi this task is not a simple task organized Fedora Bhumendi across the globe within this particular month so it is not an easy task but when we say when we can divide this task in simple smaller sub tasks for example Chavi wanted to help us out in the diversity efforts she is from the design team she helped us out designing the badges and then she helped us out making the video as well so these are some simple tasks which we can give to the people but then it has to be defined process how we can you know if somebody is coming to me and there are a lot of people who ping me that I am very much interested in diversity how can I join the team how can I do that so pointing that question to some written process this is the process generally what I do right now is I tell them to introduce themselves on the mailing list and come and join the meetings so and come and join our meetings so even if they have sent the mail when they come to the meeting they can understand what is going on because meeting is if you are an existing member and you know what is going on in the team meetings are useful for that person but if the person is joining first time meetings are not making too much sense to them so I am not sure how to define this proper process I personally think of the diversity as a way of onboarding contributors from different backgrounds into other fedora's projects it is like a bridge connecting potential contributors to other approaches so we don't necessarily need to make people join the fedora diversity team we can just help them to be onboarded into other sub projects and those who really want to join the diversity team they can work with you guys to advance your mission so there is something that we did I like to give your opinion about some of these kind of things so there used to be the fedora women community right there is an IRC channel with the page for that one of the tickets that we have open right now is trying to reboot restart that community it is not necessarily a contributor but the goal of this fedora women group isn't to contribute to fedora but rather be a network of fedora women who are fedora contributors to connect and have a community together with them so this is one way that we are trying to think like this to the point like onboarding people into the fedora project this was this idea of like the diversity team is trying to work on these things but by creating fedora women that would be what is oriented towards bringing people into the project in that target group without necessarily giving them voting rights for budgets on diversity but what would be the mission of the fedora women team when you have a fedora diversity I mean aren't those missions closely aligned one to another why would you need to have a fedora women they would need to have why do you need to have a fedora women team when you have a diversity so the idea for this was kind of based on what we saw on other communities like the arts women community which is the diversity team is very focused on like contributing and working on the diversity goals to the project whereas the fedora women community is more of like a network a network of like support and community not necessarily that's why we like the idea of having that as like the onboarding platform for fedora women like searching the target audience and like this is why this idea could be expanded to like different target audiences as well if we started with women because we had experience of people who were ready to work on that idea maybe ok although we are deviating a bit from our main topic maybe the fedora women team could be considered as a as a special interest group because it's a group of people having the same interests but I think that it shouldn't be strictly speaking considered as an official sub-project because you guys have the same goals pretty much think of it like at OSCO when you have the meetup floors think of it like that's kind of the purpose or goal of this kind of community it's not necessarily to be a SIG or to have voting rights or to work on projects people might be working in different areas of the project but it's more like having like a meetup at an open source conference that's kind of the context of like what the purpose of that group is but we haven't really started diving too deep on some of these tickets we just kind of have like some ideas that we have how we want to try to bring that community back but that's kind of the motivation for it and like to me I like that idea and this is kind of I think related to our onboarding task because I think it's easier for someone to want to get involved with the diversity team by creating resources for one of these smaller communities of people like fedora women and I wanted to get involved with this community and I wanted to help organize how to lead you know maybe I could write I could try to build like work on some of the wiki pages or work on other things within that community that's kind of where I see the art from this women community and it's really unique there because I've never seen another community that does what the art from this women community does so well and it's really I don't know I've never it's why it's hard to map out like how we can replicate something like that because it's a very supportive community it does kind of have a their primary focus is not to contribute which is why so many people I think in that group end up contributing to art from this because it's like it's a very supportive and empowering community that they have there and then if someone needs help contributing or like I want to get involved just because they hang out on the channel and talk with these cool people then someone's like hey yeah you can like help them out and give them connections do we have any point of contact there? yes so that's in our diversity channel it's messed around I think this is where we also it's very interesting to watch what Mandela does for their affinity groups and I think that they've just developed in those kind of best practices but yeah I think the goal one of the goal of the diversity team is to provide support and some sort of startup guidelines for affinity groups if there are people who want to create a specific affinity group like if I don't know if there was a group that wanted to you know specifically specialize in like what does it mean to participate in the door if you don't know English which I don't know maybe there is something like that already as part of a master's but it could also be like an affinity group that diversity supports yeah I'm actually thinking about that too that is actually something that does it's not really a formally recognized structure but like I think of like Fedora Albania and a lot of like in Telegram we actually have a lot of community groups for foreign languages like the Chinese Fedora Telegram group there's a Russian Fedora Telegram group with hundreds of people in there too and it's I don't know just something I hadn't thought of until now that specific example I think there is a geographical diversity aspect that you know I don't know I don't know unless there is already and as a team ambassadors might be the geographic diversity the pure geographic diversity is a focus area so I'm just not sure but I'm just saying like let's you know we can like for example like Mozilla has children who use the language affinity group I was just saying and Fedora women is a definitive group of interest yeah so I actually think that could be a really nice way for us as like the diversity team to try to create easy fixed tasks too if there's interest that we know is there for the language affinity groups and it would be a good way for us to try to onboard people into the diversity team as contributors because there's a previously existing interest in helping that and maybe we could try to motivate those people to get involved with Fedora I'm like slightly regretting my example because I'm like not sure geographic and language diversity should be our targets because we are their targets of internationalization and ambassadors one quick and easy fix maybe could be that if somebody wants to contribute to Fedora but is not very comfortable with speaking English they can get in touch with other ambassadors mostly ambassadors because it's the largest group of contributors I believe within the Fedora project in their region, in their country most likely and those ambassadors that suppose we are more familiar with English they can help them contribute to the project so like is that something that you would say told them they're ambassadors or internationalization ambassadors can be a way of helping initial connecting would you want the diversity team's page to have a section about like language barrier like expanding diversity to a project with respect to the language barrier I think it would be helpful if there is a reference and also to include the list of ambassadors across the world so that if somebody is not very comfortable speaking English they can get in touch with local ambassadors I'm just going to ask this question I don't know that it's an answer we have to answer in this question but I think we need to define how someone who does not speak English can have success as a contributor in the Fedora project before we try to build an infrastructure to support them I think that someone who does not speak English can enjoy great success as a user of our go to great links with globalization internationalization and translation to support them but like how do you participate in this discussion because we're not going to provide simultaneous translation to every language and so I just I want to make sure that we know how that works before we build an infrastructure to set people up for failure absolutely I would even be able to translate to some extent and they will definitely be able to support the local community by providing support for example for attending events but they might not be comfortable speaking so they might just need some support to be east into the community when they basically that's what I thought that there are different levels and then if we define some of those levels we can be able to support infrastructure for that I have a list of things you can do even if you are not able to communicate with them as well there is one more aspect for example in India most of the people most of the people know Hindi even if they don't know English and plus they know their traditional language all over India most of the people know it and plus their local language which can be Marathi which can be Punjabi which can be Bengali so they can translate from Hindi to their traditional language but also even if part of the diversity things go to also use their diversity not just we need to talk a lot about the idea of becoming a member of the contributing project so I felt like it was important that we think about where that support needs to fall based on level of usage I absolutely believe that we certainly want users who don't speak English that we do all this work so yes just to kind of wrap back in just for our onboarding tasks I think now to me just coming to this discussion with regards to the proposals we already have for our tickets with the Dora women and actually I just I know this is the example you threw out with language affinity groups is something that I think there's a strong base for just from what I've seen in the Dora community I think that trying to create affinity groups where we have interest and we think that we have the means to support that group forming as something that a type of task a type of diversity team to create an easy fixed task for us to help get people involved with the Dora diversity by helping those affinity groups right do you kind of follow them? yes I do, so am I hearing that there's no other groups that feel were set on their toes by doing that as far from the community side because it's like where diversity can take on as as well I don't think of any other group in Dora that's upset, my question would be do we have the bandwidth for it but other than that, yeah yeah I don't have anything like that either that's why we need more people you started this conversation around how do you determine who's active for the purposes of voting and how do you onboard people into diversity and maybe we should drive that back to there as opposed to trying to come up with yet more things for people that we haven't onboarded and determine who are active or do it is being able to better connect with people who would actually want to contribute to Dora by having that interest in that affinity group, whether it's for our women or specific language actually that has a very good onboarding path for people into the diversity team and especially by creating like easy fixed tickets for different affinity groups I see that as something that we could help foster and create without it would require a little bit of upfront work to do that on our part and ideally the payoff of doing that would be to bring more people as contributors, maybe not necessarily to other parts of Fedora diversity but to help support those affinity groups in Fedora, that's kind of my thinking on it that I agree okay cool making it very clear that people can perform as an authority yes absolutely absolutely yeah alright thank you but as far as other things I don't know if anyone else would have ideas on I really like the idea of like affinity groups as a kind of work type of task that we the diversity team works on but I'm also just trying to think of other ideas or other ways that we could better connect with people who are trying to get started contributing who have that who have that initial interest and then we never see them next week I'm trying to think like what could we throw at those people to make them feel like I always feel like the reason why people end up dropping off is that they don't feel like they're actually having an impact and that's like the same thing with marketing when someone's like hi I want to help contribute to Fedora diversity it's like welcome this is Fedora diversity here's the things thanks it's not like we don't try to help them if they have questions but it's just a lot to throw at people which is why I had an example it starts with some questions like are you already involved in any diversity efforts what are you like I don't know when we say like send an introduction email you know to like maybe just have something like well we already have I mean we already have all those questions for them to answer and so I think it's just kind of maybe we need to have like a person who's a part of the group already whose like explicit goal is to kind of like build on like a catalog of those people be the person who connects them with the next opportunity who reaches out to them and says so you said that you are involved with a code group in Greece um we're doing a women's event throughout the world would you like to organize one in Greece so kind of like have a person who a point of contact why explicit goal is to be like a welcome wagon or engagement person for this specific goal is to engage people who have and one other question which I think we can discuss about it in the onboarding to the diversity group is do we want a person to be already a fedora for the group fedora to have in the team the diversity team because I see most of the focus of the diversity teams going in the outreach direction we are doing outreach in the fedora women day or we are trying to improve enhance our getting trying to get more number all the contributors so it falls under the category of outreach so I believe the person in the diversity group is advocating about fedora should know about then only he can redirect the new people towards their interested groups what if it's a fedora user not accept so I'm just a hard minus one to require someone to be a contributor because we're eliminating people who have a lot of things to add to our discussions and they might be a fedora user maybe they're hanging out in the fedora community but they don't want to contribute to other projects but they have a lot to offer some of the things we are talking about in our discussion so I'm just a hard minus one to require someone to be a member of another vast group ideally they would like to know something about fedora I'm also sketchy on that we have a community who aren't fedora users but they have a lot of background and experience with diversity related topics in their communities so to me, and we already have someone who is like that in our team so I started up like that so I think Justin pretty much someone is there I have a very simple comment I haven't been involved in fedora yet but in my experience in our communities the best way to get people involved is to make them join the chat because then they can sort of see what's going on they can see what others are on about and they can sort of start feeling comfortable by giving some comments and seeing maybe what the other people are working on or are interested and it will really give them a sense of community so to me, you really need to throw people onto the chat and have them see the community in action otherwise they're going to forget about it to that point, since a couple of months ago we added the telegram burst to our channel which I think was had an immense impact on the type of contributions we were getting so I just wanted that to be a cool thing to emphasize that people as an alternative because I think if you know anything about fedora or if you look at contravena fedora you'll always see IRC channels but the idea of a telegram bridge to the IRC channel is sort of new I think for a lot of people it's really cool and it makes it easier you just pull up the messaging app you already have installed on your phone or something that's a lot easier than an IRC client with a connection you have to configure the settings but we should try to promote more if that's a way that we can try to better involve people into our community I think that's something that has worked really well for us I think somebody who wants to get involved in technical stuff they will need to get on IRC to relate you but with telegram it's accomplishable and it can be used from your phone yeah, that's true it's very profitable it makes the people join the telegram group very easy and also there is a different perspective to it all together which some of you may be surprised to know that there are people who are not very comfortable to see around thousands of people on the IRC channel and one new and hesitated to type their message on the IRC channel because there are so many people who are there hanging out but as compared to on the phone they are very comfortable because it's like chatting in formal way of typing your message or sending your message they are more comfortable in typing their message on the phone rather than on the IRC my handwriting is hanging on the wall with brand one and I'm not sure I can read it doctor I get that I made it through the part of my doctoral program the topic of write poorly I just didn't make this graduation so I'm not excellent so I think this is pretty much we wanted to discuss during this session it was a great session do we have anything else we have other things but I think that would be covered was a lot I could really get about the level of depth covered I feel really great about it how long is the past session two hours or three hours two hours no no no I was thinking that would be a good opportunity for people from the diversity enjoying the ambassadors to discuss about collaboration between our sub-processors so that is in this room or no one of the grand ambassadors so I wanted to just give a quick update about the contributor survey I'm kind of back in a place where I can do some of the work on it and I think Brian will be in a better place after the book and we'll see a little more time in level two and so one of the things that we discussed that we in addition to figuring out infrastructure one of the things that we'd like to have before we launch this survey is a full plan for what analysis we're planning to do with the data so the way we would as for people who don't have context for this if you go to FedoraProject.org for the diversity you're going to see the questions that we have come up with as the Fedora activity for the diversity team and so those questions are something that we've worked a lot on and they are somewhat final and one of the next goals is to create an analysis plan I was going to put one last question and one of the things with the analysis and the question that we want to avoid is is it being too identical of any particular individual unintentionally and so that's basically the next step is to create this analysis plan in addition to figuring out the infrastructure which is very important I mean other than I definitely think we can go back and revisit he's kind of coming up with the analysis plan what we want to do with the data but for the most part I thought that we a lot of the things that we did try to spend time on during the FAT was identifying questions that might over identify people so I just think that feedback on that would be very helpful for us so I felt like that we had really tried to do our best I don't know if that was going like without kind of thinking about what else needs to happen and we just figured out that it's a good practice before releasing the survey to also have a plan so I guess one of the places that's key from is that GitHub did a survey which I think most people have probably heard of that was like a very they had a data scientist who had a survey being made by GitHub and it was like a well sought out survey and one of the things that we found out is that they omitted a question of geography all together like so they didn't ask what country or what region the people lived in because that alone is it was going to be to identify in combination with other with other questions and so but their goal was also to fully release the data that they obtained so the data that they obtained is available for public viewing which we are not planning to do with the Fedora survey with Fedora's contributor survey we are planning to only release a public analysis based on a pre prepared analysis plan there were also public analysis for which have some period where people can send in more proposals about what they would like to be analyzed and if that is determined to be not to identify and we are going to run that as analysis so that's our approach there but basically like this idea that we do need to preserve what I would also go to do as part of the analysis before releasing the survey before conducting the survey was inspired by Github admitting the geography question altogether which right now we do have it so do are we also planning to identify any specific month when we want to release this survey and do we clash with any other major event or I think we need to work to I don't know if we can make any specific promises on the one we can get there and I think that Maureen and I are going to go with let's get the thing launchable and then come back to the diversity team and go when should you pull the trigger but like I don't want to say we want to commit to November and then we hit complications and it's not launchable from December I'd rather go through that exercise once but the next step for diversity seems and I guess it's something that I can like file the ticket is for people to look at the questions and come up with and say other than like core data just percentage on each question percentage on each question what are other combinations of factors do you want to be reported on do you want to be reported on how many people who identified as women are also in a contributing on average 21 to 40 hours a week or how many people who you know identified in a certain way are doing this in the work here what combinations of factors do we want to report out on does that make sense and also we need to publicize it enough so that people can take it and Justin I just have to say that like I have to retrain myself over there but we really need to talk about it as a contributor because we want everybody in the project to take that we will like it's just hard you're right do we want to see or does the same thing about diversity and I see petition as well I saw some discussion so there's been some conversation there's a meeting on Friday after block where this is going to come up it seems highly likely I am not making any public commitments it seems highly likely that the council will have proposed and accept the proposal to change the diversity advisor position into a diversity representative position and have that representative come from this team as a recognition of the team's efforts and the fact that this team is driving this issue we'd like to have the person come from the team in the same way that for example we have an engineering steering committee person who is selected by Bestow and that way it's a much cleaner way of making sure that the diversity advisor position is cleanly connected to the actual activities and drivers of diversity within our project and so we think that's going to be I'm currently pro that solution I have not heard anybody come up with this to it and so I expect that is what will come out of the council meeting on Friday this is not in any ways to say that there should be no third party impact or contribution to diversity in Fedora instead it's like I said to really strongly connect the council role with the actual team that's doing well so I think that's what's going to pass this council so if it does diversity we're going to take it saying we wouldn't do this a lot so it'd be good if we had inside of diversity this process with regards to active people etc resolved soon so we don't want to use the process we are really used I guess you were there when we elected right the idea is that there was a council there was a team rather than we were on and it was a council who appointed the person after after the team have just come up with a process for how people can apply the way I understand what like Brian has discussed with the council now we have a team with no need for master to appoint anybody it's a team that can represent it's a great way to show the same distribution of responsibility that we show in other projects there's no reason diversity is a special place that needs to be for lack of a term parented or managed by the council there are significant disagreements with that to represent those disagreements in the council because right now the soft conversations that have come up with a significant reason why this is not a really good idea but I'm all over and obviously we can push back after the council makes the decision and has to be visited as well so this representative will be a part of the comprehensive team as it was the co-dead advisor right, this person would be a representative on council similar to other representatives on council well it would be a member of council in the same way that we have a fiscal representative we have a representative from the objectives it is unclear to me whether this person will have a binding vote on all issues or more of a binding vote only on diversity issues with opinion salt on all issues however in most cases this is actually an irrelevant distinction because the council pretty much operates solely on a consensus basis but there are technically two kinds of roles on council, I don't know which one council will actually head for this particular role, I'd actually have to look up which one it is now because I know council, council is lazy we will probably keep the same kind of a role but yes this person will be listed on the council page they will be a member of council they will be expected to attend meetings they will be expected to have an important vote it's the same kind of responsibility it's just the name the name will more than likely change, that's also unclear I look at it completely from the perspective of this is going to create a stronger connection between this team I think it's worth knowing to just to clarify that with the other representatives that they're not necessarily like the drivers of those different projects like with the objectives and the team, they're not necessarily like the chair of FESCO or the lead person in the objectives but they're just one representative to be the voice of that team, they're not inheriting all the leadership responsibilities and roles for the entire team it's just a voice to represent what's happening in the team to the council is that correct? that is correct I'm not actually sure I'm not actually sure that the board is FESCO but he was selected by FESCO as their representative I would have to go look to see his actual number of FESCO the previous distinction with the diversity advisor was as the lead driver sole wrangler of everything with the diversity initiative that's also definitively true for example of modularity Leighton is a great guy, he's full of ideas but he isn't doing the majority of work but he does represent the interests of the modularity objective I think it's a great opportunity this group as a diversity team will need to figure out how to select which representative who that representative should be just where it's okay cool give me 10 minutes and we won't because that's a big deal is there anything else that we wanted to go over and cover? well thank you all for coming out and bringing all this awesome feedback it was really awesome, thank you especially those two sitting over here anybody hungry? lunch time lunch will be served in approximately 13 minutes so it's probably already out in the back