 Hello and welcome. This is the Vermont House Education Committee and the Vermont House of Representatives. It's May 15th and we have two discussions today. The first will be on a delay of the lead bill that we passed last year and the second will be a discussion of the 19 districts without school budgets. So, let's start with Michael O'Grady, who has flushed out the bill a little bit with some findings. Sure. So this is Michael O'Grady with Legislative Council. As you remember last year in Act number 66, you required schools, independent and public and childcare facilities to test the drinking water in their facilities and buildings for the presence of lead. That was required to be completed by December 31st of 2020. Childcare facilities have completed testing and 67% of the schools in the state have completed testing, but the other remaining 33 have not. The issue is that Act 66 required sampling the testing to be done while students were present in the building so that the tests would account for the actual conditions of use, which can affect the amount of lead in water. So schools are shut down now. There is some uncertainty as to whether or not and when they will reopen in the fall. Consequently, the Department of Health has asked for an extension by one year of the deadline to complete the testing of drinking water in schools for lead. So that's generally what this bill does. There is, do you want me to put it on the screen or how do you want me to review the content? Avery, can you put it up on the screen? Okay. So, there's a finding section, which basically lays out what I just told you Act 66 required the testing completed by December 31st as of March 2020. Childcare was complete and 68% of all schools. Then you go on to the next page. The required testing during the school year in order to test composition when students are present. On March 15th, the governor issued a disorder. And then there was the directive to parole public and independent schools to remain dismissed. And because of the dismissal, because of the uncertainty when students will return, testing will not be completed by December 31st 2020. In addition, Department of Health staff have been reassigned to focus largely, if not entirely on the COVID-19 response. So, in order to allow schools sufficient time to test when they are present and when Department of Health staff are available, the General Assembly should move the deadline for testing until December 31st 2020. That brings you to section two. And that's what section two does. It changes the 2020 date to 2021. And the bill would take effect on passage. Okay, thank you. I also have David Englunder in the room in case there are questions. Just as a reminder, were there. All of this money was previously appropriated for one time fronts and there's no appropriation in this bill currently. No appropriation crap. Are there any other questions. Okay, I'm seeing none. I would entertain a motion to pass to approve 20 dash 0988. Madam chair, I move that we pass this bill. As written. I second it. Lynn. Thank you, Lynn discussion. Seeing none. The clerk shall commence to call the roll. Madam chair. Yes. Is that Jay. Sorry. No, it's Chris matters. Oh, Chris. Sorry. Yeah. Hey, I just got on the call. What. Sorry to interrupt, but what do we, what do we vote on here? We're voting on one school district. Oh, okay. Yeah. I'm sorry. I apologize. We are, we are looking at our committee bill 20 dash. 20 dash 0988, which was the bill to. Extend the date for lead testing because this. Children are not in school and we can't test while the children are not in school. Oh, okay. Yeah. Carry on. Yeah. Starting again, the clerk shall commence to call the roll. Representative Conlon. Yes. Representative James. Yes. Representative Hooper. Yes. Representative Toof. Yes. Representative bachelor. Yes. Representative Giambattista. Representative elder. This is representative elder and I vote yes. Representative Matos. Yes. Representative Matos and I vote yes. Representative Austin. Yes. Representative Coupoli. Yes. Representative Webb. Yes. Okay. I think I got everyone. I was trying to go around the table for memory. So I think that was in wrong order. Thank you. Got everyone. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. So I thank you very much. David Eglider and Michael O'Grady for your, your work on this. And if you'd like to run for the 19 budgets, you're more than welcome to stay. I just, I wanted to thank the, Madam chair. I want to thank you in the committee for your, your assistance with this. And at a later date, I'd be happy to come in and give you my PowerPoint slide on Pete the moose. It takes about an hour. Okay. David, I'll drop you an email. I'm going to be presenting this next week. And I just have a couple of quick questions. I will wait by my computer. I'm sure you will. Thanks. Very good. Thanks everyone. Have a good weekend. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Mike. Thank you, David. Okay. Okay. Our next topic is. We are looking at, as we discussed on Tuesday, the purpose of our next discussion is to look at the options before our committee for the 19 districts without a budget. And to better understand the impact of those decisions on each of the districts. As you remember, there are 19 districts with budgets that failed in March, as well as 10 districts who had yet to vote before the COVID-19 directives, making voting the way we have done it in the past impossible. So just to remind folks, I currently see three options before us. Should districts be unable to vote by June 30th? The first is, as we know, the Senate is the one that actually hasn't the starting draft of a bill. We do not have an official draft yet. The first thing we would do is we would concur with the Senate proposal of amendment. It's got a little bit of work to do, but essentially this is a bill in which AOE authorizes district spending at the FY 20 level and school districts may vote after June 30th. And any further budgets would be with supplant the default budgets. So one is we concur. The second is we further negotiate with the Senate to consider other options. Other options we have considered so far would be to authorize school districts to pass a budget on its own. This is similar to a bill that we just passed this week that would allow select boards to pass a municipal budget on its own. At least that happened for a few districts, I believe mainly in Wyndham. So pass it, pass a budget on its own account or the default budgets would be set to last year's, instead of being set to last year's budget, it could be set at the last worn budget. And I believe we do have a list of all of those. And the third would be to consider FY 20 with an inflator. Those are the options that I'm currently aware of. There might be other options. So one is we concur with the Senate to we further negotiate with the Senate or three, we do nothing and wait to see how far the districts get. By June 30th. So I put this question. I'm going to go through the, the various advocacy groups, the superintendents, the school board associations and the principals and as well as, as the teachers and ask them to get back to us on, on what would work. So I think I have first on the list. I've, I've Jim Demeray. Is there any progress in the Senate at this point? Or it's still the same. No change. This is not on their topic list for now. Yeah. Okay. I have, I believe it is going to be Chelsea. Is that correct? Who's going to present something to us? It's going to be a little combo between Jeff Sue and I. Okay. Could I just take one quick second? I believe Dylan is here. Yeah, I'm on the line. Don't even hear me. Okay. Kathleen, could you request his vote on the lead bill? You're aware of what we voted on, correct Dylan? Yes. Yes. Okay. You're muted, Kathleen. That's really unfortunate because it was a very dramatic. Calling representative geometry step. Yes. Okay. So we can send that on to the clerk's office. Okay. So excuse me, getting back to the. Information at hand. So Chelsea, you are, you are doing a joint presentation. So that's good. I believe Jeff and Sue are going to kick us off. I think it would be helpful Avery to pull up our document, maybe not right at the second, but I'll indicate to you. So, I think we can. We could just do one though. It would be good idea to do that. Just for the committee, I just refreshed my committee homepage and the documents are there available for us to see as well. Yeah, it might be easier to see on a separate device. Thank you. This is Sue. I'm going to be starting off our presentation. And then I'll be handing it over to. Chelsea. committee about the 19 school districts without FY 21 budgets on behalf of the Vermont school boards association, the Vermont superintendents association and the Vermont principals association. We'd like to thank you for the opportunity to speak with you again about the 19 school districts without FY 2021 budgets. We recognize the complexities of this issue, which are amplified by Vermont's navigation of the COVID-19 crisis. For these 19 districts, the challenges facing public schools resulting from COVID-19 are more ominous than those confronting the nearly 100 districts with approved budgets. We have held a series of four meetings since early April with superintendents and school board chairs of the affected districts. The meetings have tracked the evolution of the policy discussions around the fate of these districts and the students and the communities that they serve. In the immediate aftermath of the closing of schools and the worsening news about the implications of COVID-19. We heard from school district officials serving districts without authorized FY 21 budgets with three principal concerns. Whether and when they could bring proposed budgets to the electorate for a vote. Second, whether economic conditions would create a less favorable environment for achieving approval of the proposed budget. And third, how they could sufficiently respond to the challenges of serving school children through the COVID-19 crisis and beyond, if they were operating without an approved budget, or with a budget insufficient to respond to known and anticipated needs. After considering these factors, our associations introduced a concept that would see legislative authority granted to districts that were unable to secure voter approval. Granted FY 2020 education spending, plus an inflationary factor. What was suggested was 4%. Overall for the districts with FY 21 approved budgets, the education spending increase is 4.7% statewide. This committee is familiar with what has transpired since then. The line above was not favorably received by the Senate Education Committee, which has proposed granting districts unable to get a budget approved spending authority equal to FY 2020 education spending. Districts could continue to vote until a budget was secured. The committee and the Ways and Means Committee discussed the issue and proposed several options, the central feature of which was to authorize education spending equivalent to that indicated by the district board. Other options, including staying with current law have been discussed. How this matter will be resolved, or if it will be resolved is unknown. In our testimony today, we hope to achieve the following objectives. First, we want to convey the commitment by the districts to secure voter approval for a FY 21 operating budget. Each district has a vote planned prior to June 30th. Second, we want to let you know that each district wants to see this matter brought to resolution. They have serious business before them, and they would like to see this matter settled. Third, we wish to convey that not all districts view this issue the same way. Several districts would be satisfied with FY 2020 education spending because their circumstances result in that amount being sufficient. Some districts would accept FY 2020 education spending because they believe that in light of current economic and political context, that may be the best that they can do. Those districts would prefer an inflator of some type. However, most districts are hoping for something more than FY 2020 spending authority because they understand all too well the impacts of using FY 2020 resources to fund FY 21 obligations. Two districts have significant increases in equalized pupils and will need spending authority substantially greater than the FY 2020 spending amount. And all districts are concerned about the future. Fourth, we want to convey some examples of the detrimental effects of FY 2020 resources as applied to FY 21 COVID-19 era needs and the general operating requirements. Fifth, we want to convey that we believe strongly that with an uncertain future economically, educationally, politically, these districts need a starting point that puts them on level footing with counterpart districts as we begin a navigation of unprecedented challenges. Sixth, we want to raise for you some observations about implications of recent policy requirements of the General Assembly and the state that make the challenges for these districts even more formidable. Thank you. And at this point, I will hand the presentation over to Chelsea Myers. Thank you, Sue. Avery, do you mind pulling up the document, please? Welcome, Chelsea. No, thank you. Good to see you all. Nice to see you again. I'm just pulling it up now. Thank you. Perfect. So thank you, Avery. I'm going to have you scroll in a minute, but the first page that Avery has brought up. And that you should have in your packet is a map that color codes where the districts actually lie in Vermont, those 19 districts. So as you can see, they're spread out pretty widely across the state. Avery, you can go to the next page. Sue already mentioned in her opening that the superintendents and board chairs almost unanimously would like to hold a vote, if at all possible, and many of them already have scheduled votes. So in that on that page, you can see the timeline of scheduled votes. All right, Avery, if you could go to page five, that would be great. I'm going to just run through a couple of examples. We've collected survey results from our districts that kind of give an outline of what this, if they were level spend it at FY 2020, what that would mean for their particular circumstance. So next page please, Avery. A little bit lower. There you go. So I want to highlight the Caledonia cooperative. Their cuts, if they were level spend it, if you could go just a little bit lower, sorry, Avery, right there is perfect. If they were to see FY 2020 education spending, it would be $610,984 less than the proposed FY 2021 education spending. But more importantly, what this means is significant cuts to programs because their contracts have already been issued. So we are talking about in a fairly high poverty area programs that are essential to the health and well-being of the students. The superintendent there equated it to going back to bare bones education at a time when social services are going to be dramatically needed. Page eight please. I keep forgetting I do not have control over this. Sorry. If you can find Milton Avery. There it is. So Milton is looking at over $1 million change from FY 2020 education programming, something I want to point out here that is in addition to some of the program cuts that Mark Tucker's district talked about are busing and the availability of busing and what that means for their community could mean increases in student truancy and the cuts to programs would likely result in increased unhealthy behaviors and things like that. So page 10 please. South Burlington Avery. So South Burlington is one of the districts that Sue was referencing that will have a substantial increase in enrollment over next year and they're predicting over the future in the coming years. So they have issued rift notices. Avery if you can go down just a little bit. We're talking about a two, about approximately $2.5 million difference between FY 20 and FY 21. And again, the enrollments are growing. So student supports will be significantly diminished programmatic changes just like the others have referenced. If you could go to page 12, Waits River. Great. So if any of you are familiar with Emily, Superintendent Emily Nisley's district, you'll know that there's quite a bit of high poverty in her SU in general and in this SD. So you're talking about a $200,000 or $271,000 difference predicted reductions are in universal meals support staff or students in enrichment and student activities. I want to just quote her specifically because I think she says it pretty eloquently. This is a school that runs already a very lean program with a very high needs population. So they don't really have any superfluous spending. No additional programs in terms of right now. So if they have to experience more cuts, we're talking about pretty critical programs. All right, if we can go to page 14 window. And obviously please peruse any of the ones that you would like on your own, but I just wanted to highlight this last one, because it does show the predicted scope of reductions in terms of actual full time positions. One thing that was striking to me in their response is we're not talking about just extracurriculars, we're talking about PE library arts cuts to those programs, which to me are not superfluous but core instructional needs for our students. Another point that they made is that the high school dean of students who manages a lot of the high risk students would need to be cut, likely increasing behavioral problems, perspective of, or the likelihood of drop out and truancy and things like that so that is it for me unless you have any questions about specific districts and if not I will pass it along to Jeff. I think at this point, I was going to do concluding remarks and then Jeff was going to follow up. Okay. Okay, sorry. Can you just tell me how many of the 19 districts are represented in this document. All of them. And the reason you might have skipped over some. Because it would take a really long time to go through all of them. Yeah. Okay, so we can. I wanted to point out some of the ones that are really going to be experiencing a lot of hardship, all of them are going to be experiencing hardships, of course. And I will notice that in the document there are some that there is not a difference between FY 20 and FY 21 spending I believe there are two of those, but the majority will experience significant cuts if they are level funded. Thank you Chelsea. Any questions for Chelsea. Well, why don't we, why don't we. Okay, representative common. I have a specific question about a specific issue, but I'm happy to wait till the end if you prefer Kate. And get to everybody. So remember your questions. Okay, so Jeff. Madam chair. Oh, Sue. Thank you. I'm going to provide some concluding remarks and then I will hand it over to to Jeff. The presentation Chelsea presented portrays the effects of default budgets at the FY 2020 education spending level. The state has contributed significantly to those effects by adding expenses that districts cannot control in the form of the statewide bargaining for health insurance for school employees. Currently the arbitrator's decision in statewide bargaining for health insurance for school employees goes into effect during FY 2021. According to an expert witness the arbitrator's choice of the employee commissioners last best offer will result in approximately 25 million of additional cost, which will be approximately 10% of the overall cost of healthcare benefits for educational employees. This figure does not reflect the annual increase in premium costs for health plans. The 25 million reflects an additional cost above and beyond the 14% increase in healthcare premium rates for FY 21. This is contradictory for the state to add expenses to the budgets of these districts on one hand, while on the other hand constraining them to FY 2020 education spending levels. In most of the districts, the result will be extreme cuts to programs for students. On top of that, the overall approach to the $167 million deficit in the education fund is unresolved as evidenced by the testimony in House Ways and Means Committee yesterday. There is a high potential for these districts to be dealt a double whammy if they are subject to a default budget based on last year's ed spending and subject to clawbacks imposed upon all districts. Since Vermont is committed to equity in educational opportunity and fairness and our support for the public institutions charge. We hope that you and your colleagues in the Senate can bring this matter to a successful resolution. Thank you for the opportunity to speak with you today. And now I would like to hand the presentation over to Jeff Francis. I want to thank Chelsea and Sue. I want to thank the committee for hearing us on this topic once more. I want to convey to you a reiteration of our sincere hope that we can bring this matter or see you bring it to resolution in a manner that the school districts, which is who we work for will find satisfactorily. As Sue pointed out, we've had regular meetings and nearly weekly briefings with the affected school districts. They realize the challenge of bringing this to resolution. What we wanted to do today was to as succinctly as possible recap for you what we have learned from them and demonstrate our understanding of the process that you're engaged in. I had three quotes that I wanted to share with you. And I'll give you the quotes and then I'll tell you who we can attribute them to the first quote is, and for me anyway, to talk about something which may leave schools with insufficient resources to do the job that we've asked them to do is just unacceptable. The second quote is, the COVID-19 district gate slam shut, and we found ourselves on the wrong side of the fence. And the third quote is, it isn't the mountains ahead to climb that where you out, it's the pebble in your shoe. The third quote is attributable to Mohammed Ali, and we think that it's particularly apps, not only for everything that we all face at this point in time. But for these districts who we are eager to see put on sound ground, as they navigate the very, very challenging road ahead, and we know of the economic distress we face. We know of the tough decisions that will be made. And from the beginning, our goal was really to put these 19 districts, which in a way have been stranded onto a firm ground so that we can contend with the kinds of proposals that we saw emerge in the Ways and Means Committee yesterday. And as someone remarked, there are scores of unanswered questions, and for these 19 districts, the questions mount because they would not know their status to start to school year 21 if they were then asked to re-vote a budget. So, again, our goal is to get them into a place where they can navigate with all districts in the state on behalf of the state, on behalf of the economic challenges, but most especially on behalf of the students that they serve. The first quote, and for me anyway, to talk about something which may leave schools with insufficient resources to do the job that we've asked them to do is just unacceptable. That was your colleague, chair of the House Ways and Means Committee, Janet Ansell, who made that remark yesterday when confronted with the with the prospects associated with navigating COVID-19. And I appreciated all the comments from legislators yesterday, chair Webb among them. But I thought that Janet Ansell's comment was particularly apt because we really are asking these districts to move ahead in a way in service to kids and communities, and we want to see them start at a place where they can begin to do that. And the third quote, which was the COVID-19 district gate slammed, and we found ourselves on the wrong side of the fence. That came from a person whose name is Cappy Hook, who is the vice chair of the Rivendell School District Board. And she said that in the last meeting that we had because we were talking about the dilemma of these school districts in the context of all the information that you have discussed and you have before you. And I think that that was an apt comment because Rivendell and the other 18 districts really are on the wrong side of the fence. And I realized that it's a tough situation for everyone. We know that we're actively going to be engaged in addressing it. And we just want to have these districts in a place where they can start with other districts and not be disadvantaged any more than usual from the from the beginning. So those are the comments that I wanted to to offer. We'll be very, very happy to try to respond. Any questions that you have. Thank you very much. I do see, I think I saw Jeff Francis in the room, Jeff and in the room. Did you want to add anything at this point? Good afternoon. Thank you just very briefly. And I'm sorry I was distracted, but I didn't hear Sue Jeff and Chelsea's testimony. So I apologize. But we've sort of pivoted a little slightly different direction. We understand that the complexities and the challenges between the House and Senate versions and understand the importance right now particularly of making sure that schools have the resources they need to provide and education, high quality education for all the kids. We've really pivoted towards making sure that our members are engaged locally with their local school boards and superintendents and community members to make sure that budgets do get passed in these 19 schools. As much as that it, it would be great to have a solution that works. We're, we feel like we've got to move ahead and make sure that the kids have the resources they need come September. So that's our, that's our pivot. I appreciate the challenge you have but it's it's incredibly important that these 19 schools have a budget in place, one way or another, so that education can happen. High quality education can happen come September, whenever we're open remotely or otherwise. I have to be honest with you, I support the folks who and Jeff and Chelsea's efforts I know it's been a struggle we've talked to them a lot. I'm happy to answer any questions as well. Sorry, I'm opening it up to the committee and Peter Conlon you had a question or comment. Yeah, very specific and maybe Brad James is the right person to answer it. Hancock is a town in my district is part of the Hancock Randall district. A district with no schools, all kids are tuition. And so if they were left with FY 2020 education spending, they'd be short $81,000. Since they really have no place to cut. What happens. I think they would have to borrow money, and that would incur cost the. I can't I have something I had a camera call they provide transportation they provide transportation they could choose not to do that. They don't. Okay, I was going to put the burden on the parents starting there. I think the only option they would have is to borrow money that would obviously roll forward as a deficit, along with whatever interest they are going to incur as they pay that back. And I guess, theoretically, it's either that or just raise the tax rate, because it's not like they have any greater ability the next year to make up that deficit spending. Correct, but they can't they can't just raise the tax rate it has to come through the budget that they're given an FY 20 budget that will set their tax rate. Okay. Thank you. Other questions. So, as I opened, I looked at three possibilities, three options that we had related to accepting the sentence proposal understanding that there are a couple of still things that need needed to be worked out. I'm sticking with 2020 of continuing to negotiate, or to leave them with with the borrowing ability and check back after June 30. Today. We hear a recommendation hearing nothing Kathleen James. Just a question. Seeing that they all had votes scheduled before the end of June or we're working toward having both scheduled before the end of June. How does that change things for anybody, I guess I'm tossing that question out. Yeah, to to the superintendent's to the school boards that you have a budget plan. I'm a little bit confused because Brad you didn't have any of these dates on your list, Brad James. I don't know if you had a chance to look at Seuss list. I saw some TBDs but it looked like everybody was trying to hold a vote before the end of June. Anyway, that's right. So, Brad, I would say that what what Jeff, Sue and Chelsea came up with as much more comprehensive than what I got they actually talked to people I just asked business managers did not hear back from everyone just most everyone. So I would say that I have nothing to add to their list that is probably far more comprehensive than mine. Okay, so everybody. This is Jeff Francis, you know, we, as you might imagine we spent a lot of time in the last, well, over the last five or six weeks but in the last week, checking in with everybody on all of this so we were we were, you know, that list was finalized this morning. So I would say that we made a real effort to a affirm that these districts are planning to vote, which I know there was at least a small concern that G was, you know, if we, if there was a legislative fix, they, they wouldn't continue to try to vote. So, you can rest assured that the school boards and the superintendents in these communities are eager to see a budget approved by the voters. But they also are realistic about the possibility that even if they have are able to have a vote and it's not a small matter to get these votes conducted. So they understand that the votes may not be approved. So the purpose of our exercise to compare FY 2020 spending authority to what they state as their needs. You know that that that's a real thing that's a genuine effort and everybody's taking it extremely seriously. So to Kathleen's question, given that they have, we have budget votes, you know, ready to go. Does that lead us to choice number three, which is to do nothing and wait until after the vote. Yeah, I'll speak to that, but I'm going to ask Sue to comment on my comments because our conversations with these district leaders were not a simple matter. And I think it is fair to say that based on what they believe they will be facing and are facing because, you know, one of the one of the more concerning aspects of the administration's proposal to revoke school districts later this year. There are 12 superintendent positions turning over. School district officials across the state have been working tirelessly to meet the demands of COVID through the emergency response phase. So if you think about something like voting, which is complex on its own, think about what it would mean to try to get folks together to work on a school budget. What we have heard from the local officials is that they would like relief from having to worry about this. So I think it is fair to say that even though they have school district budget votes. If they were to vote between now and June 30, they would, if at all possible, like to see a legislative address of this issue in anticipation of the potential that school districts won't be approved. Moving ahead in fiscal year 2021. Well, you know, it's ongoing now, but it's going to only grow in intensity as the, as the start of school in the fall comes upon us. So, So is that, is that fixing more in the line of a default or is it in line of just giving them authority to pass a budget. I think, well, there's no provision in law that would preclude them from continuing to vote to pass a budget. After the new fiscal year starts, but I think it is fair to say that they very much would like to know what their future is with regard to FY 21. And I'll tell you from the conversations we had that was a, that was a strained discussion. Because, you know, people are being forced to predict the future, both with respect to what the economy will look like and what the school district budget vote would be. So, you know, I think it's fair to say that if you pulled them, they would say that they want either the the house proposal that you discussed. And I realized that wasn't unanimous in your committee. The inflator concept. You know, the districts that said FY 2020 with the exception of the two that had sufficient funds to operate because of circumstances that had changed in their districts. You know, they acknowledge that and they said, but we could you we could go with FY 2020 level funding but it's because of our special circumstances. You know, if it had to be FY 2020 we want to provision be able to get more than that spending authority for the needs that we have laid out that we Chelsea so and me have laid out for you in that document. Lynn, did you did your question get answered. Pretty much I was going on the same idea of Kate, I would like, well, in my humble opinion, I would like to take the Senate's off the table. I think we can do better than that. I, we're, we're going to really hurt people if we use the 2020 nobody will start off on an even keel. And that's my biggest thing. And I think Mr. Francis did a very good job in explaining and I won't continue. Thank you. What's going on. Hello. We're here, we hear you, Representative Coupoli. We don't see you. Do you, did you want to say something you're muted now. I'm going to go to Peter. Okay, here we go. I would agree with Lynn. I can, I can't see that Senate bill really doing any good for anyone. I'm not even sure what the inflator might be, you know the 4%, I'm not sure what that will do either to some of these districts. Peter Conlon. Sorry, Kate, I'd left my hand up from brief from before, you can move on to the next person. See me to Austin. Yes, um, this is for Brad James. I'm wondering if you could help me understand the economic, the big picture because in these decisions and these different scenarios like I, I'm hearing that there could be a 20 cent increase. Um, you know, school tax budgets and I, I guess I just need some understanding. I mean, I feel like we're, like we're in this disaster, a real disaster. You know, my understanding is that, you know, where there's $143 million. $21 million that has been eroded. I just, I don't have an understanding of the possibilities and the consequences of each option economically, because I don't, you know, I don't think people want to pay 20 cents more on their taxes. You know, in order to support the school programming. So I guess I'm trying to understand this. I mean, okay, if I if I kind of go back to what was talked about in ways and means yesterday by Mark for all the joint fiscal. He laid out several different things for FY 21. First of all, for FY 20. The, it looks like we'll probably end up with a deficit for the FY 20 education fund of not quite $4 million, which is going to roll forward. That is coming about because it completely drained the reserves and used up surplus. So there's that's 2020. That's 2020 this current year that $4 million is going to roll forward. Going to your 20 cent tax rate increase comment. If if the and nobody's recommended this be done, this was put out there just to see this show this is what how it would be if the education fund was filled based on what they know about about revenues. And with it being backfilled by property taxes. And so that the education fund reserve is at a statutory 5% level. Then that would be about a 22 cent increase on average for homestead about a 23 cent increase on average for non homestead. I know. Yeah, pretty pretty unredicted or unpenable numbers. So again, that's not where they're going that's, but that's where your 20 cents is coming from. The next thing that Mark said, because this is what ways it means has been talking about is that if they were to look at what the increase in education spending was for, you know, all the butts that pass and saying so for 5% increase for the 19 districts that aren't there. What would tack what would the yields be before the crisis due to COVID-19. In other before the projected revenues and FY night in FY 21 from the non property taxes are plummeting, so not not accounting for that. And that keeps the average tax rate increase to maybe three or four cents I'm going off the top of my head but something like that which is about where it would have been anyway. However, if you fill the Ed fund reserves up to their 5% with about $38 million, you're talking about a $167 million deficit in the FY 21 Ed fund. So what they're working on right now is trying to figure out a way to take some of the federal money, and how to mitigate that to some degree. And that's where a lot of the different conversations are happening right now. But I think that's what the economic impact is. Right now those numbers are not based on consensus forecast from the two economists. Legislatures economists, they're going to have they're going to have consensus numbers available on Tuesday of next week for both FY 21 and think FY 22 so have a bit of firm of slightly more firm idea I guess the way to put it, of what will really be happening in 21. So those fed dollars, let's just say worst case scenario, we can't backfill we can't use any of the federal federal dollars, what then what happens. Well, that's a good question. Right right now, the coronavirus coronavirus relief fund that $1.25 billion that the state received that is very tightly regulated as to how federal folks wrote how Congress wrote the rules on that. And there's not a lot of leeway in that. So that's why states are all trying to push to open that up a little bit so far unsuccessfully. If those numbers cannot be used that you're really left with that roughly the elementary and secondary school emergency relief fund. That's that $31 million that came into the states and roughly 20 that will go directly to the LEAs. That will offset it's somewhat but not significant amount out of $167 million, but it's, it's, it's, it's complex. So they're they're trying to figure out ways to get that money in there to offset it along with other monies if possible. And I'm also going to, I'm going to Avery, will you please invite Mark, and I see Chloe's in the room and to come in and present what what to present the options that the Ways and Means Committee is looking at. Typically, we resolve everything on the on the property tax, but because this is such an unusual situation, we have the property tax and then we the way they're thinking about it is then we have this COVID-19 issue that she's looking for other ways of funding it besides the property tax. And I think, and I think if there's no other way that you're going to be looking at borrowing or raising up the property tax and paying it off for several years, if you were to borrow and again. Treasurer Pierce has been involved in those discussions with Ways and Means. And again just bearing in mind that our goal is not to solve the entire $166 million on 19 districts. Right. Chelsea. We don't with there's enough. So, Chelsea. Yeah, I was just going to say the same thing. I think it's worth noting from the association's perspective that we completely realize that the fiscal situation is going to be something to contend with. I think what we're presenting here is hopefully that we can set everyone on equal footing and make it equitable. And like chair Webb said, not put this fiscal reality on the backs of 19 districts but let's all start from the same place. And if I could just jump in on that one of Chloe's on she can she can confirm this the numbers that I was just talking about that Mark will probably talk about or Chloe can talk about in terms of the Education Fund. I think that's including the 19 districts with it's, I believe we probably their budgets, their education is probably inflated by four or five percent to come out with these numbers so whatever happens with those 19 is will change the Ed fund a little bit but I don't think significantly significantly. You know, I just, there was the kind I think Lynn and Larry mentioned something about the FY 20 budgets as wanting to drop that one what is the committees, the rest of the committee, do we want to rest we want to sleep on it, or do people have an opinion that they want to add now. Madam chair. Yes, please. Hi Chris. I'm just thinking here. The biggest problem, not problem but worry I have about dropping the Senate version is that get gets rid of the last voter approved budget scenario, say if something didn't pass. In the beginning of June for a school district so that's just my biggest concern with getting rid of the Senate version. And I wouldn't mind as much as I hate to say it, taking a little weight and figure it out because Milton were slated for June 9 if I remember correct, and we're going to do kind of like a drive through, we came up with a new way of doing it. So I'm confident that between absentee voting and the drive through voting that we're going to do that. We can, we can get it done a vote at the beginning of June and then it leaves us enough time if it doesn't pass to come back before June 30 or another vote, but from my standpoint I just don't want to get rid of the Senate version rate off. At this time. Thanks. Are there others that that are lining with with Chris on this. Kathleen did you want to say something. I did thanks. So, I've had some of the same ongoing sort of concerns as we've discussed all these different options. And then, and Larry, I just feel like the damage done to districts with that FY 20 budget or even the one with the inflator could be irreversible so I just I'm so concerned about the Senate version, but the, if we continue to try to negotiate, or hold out hopes about the last warned. I'm very interested in trying to see if we can work something out about the last warned budget. Just remind me we've discussed so many options that would be allowing the district boards to simply adopt that right so like Chris was saying there's no voter input there just simply the board would take it and adopt the last warned budget and say this was the last one budget here's what we're doing and voters are out of the equation there or how could we try to bring voters into the mix somehow. We could we could use it as a in that the third, the seven one that's seven one dead, it said, you're like the Senate you have a default budget, but you can vote again. It's just going to be your warned budget. What what your, what your school board came up but could you just tell me, maybe Sue, in terms of the number of budgets that are past each year that are developed by school boards, how many are typically how many people typically support the budget of the work of the school board. You know what the person it's high I think isn't it. Typically it's in the 9090 something percent. So, so very typically the work of a select board work of a school board is accepted, but not always. Right. And, of course, we're under very different circumstances now. Right. So how was that work. If we did seven if we did 6.1 that had the three options, same budget, sent Senate bill or we are just on our own going to pass a budget. So we did this and I think I think we've got will send it I think we have we have Karen horn still in the room that we passed something recently related to allowing a select board to pass a municipal budget. And can tell us how that might compare to the conversation we're having if a school district were to import to impose a budget. Yeah, this is Karen horn. You did just pass that 947. Yeah, I believe that was the number h947. Last week. And it's a bill that would let a municipality set a tax rate and adopt a budget. And that's why we're not able to hold their annual meeting. There's a couple of considerations that are different with respect to municipalities and one is that if they adopt a municipal tax rate in a municipal budget, it affects only that municipality. That's actually a question that came up on the Senate floor yesterday. So, just to your conversation with respect to the Senate. I was not made it through the Senate yet. They, they had some concerns, but that that is what the bill would do I've just as I've been listening to your debate here or discussion here today, and going through village charters. There are quite a few villages, you know, which generally have like an electric department or responsibility for streets in the village or something like that, that have not had their annual meetings yet. And are, you know, some of them are going to do drive by voting and some of them are going to do mail in ballots and some of them are still figuring it out. So I can't town that actually means to take advantage of this bill when it passes as Brattleboro because they have a representative town meeting, unlike any other town in the state. So that's sort of where we are with that piece of legislation. Okay, thank you. Others. Okay, I'll just say that this has been highly challenging and you know I, I find myself sort of swinging back and forth between the importance of having the voters involved, and this being kind of a one year, one time only special circumstance, we hope. And, you know, and I do think that, that giving the, and I'm hearing from, I guess what I'm hearing from from the testimony today is that their boards are quite concerned about having something they can fall back on. Preferably something that they can use to provide kids with the resources they need this year and I can't imagine a more important year that the schools have the resources that they need. You know, I guess I sort of need maybe the weekend to continue to let this sort of sink in. Another concept that's been sort of thrown out there and I think it's really worth considering is to fall back and maybe some sort of avenue for schools to petition another entity, the state board, joint finance, something where they can where they could say this is not sufficient to meet the needs of our students. Can we have spending authority at a higher level. Anyway, I got a lot swirling around. I will probably not going to obviously solve it this afternoon. I mean, I don't know what the plan. But we probably didn't need to revisit this sooner rather than later. The value of having at least something does give. It does give the ability to set a tax rate. It does give the ability to get started. I mean, it could obviously be supplanted by something else. Madam chair, this will. Yes, please. Well, just a quick comment for everyone. I appreciate rep Conlon's last comment leading with the real tension between taking this out of the voters hands. But recognizing that it's that it's a temporary, it would be on a temporary basis. And under these very specific circumstances and I just want to reflect back to I think it was Jeff Francis who was talking about how difficult these conversations are right now with districts and superintendents, trying to plan these votes and I get the difficulty of those conversations from the practical elections procedure standpoint. I understand all the other anxiety to just about their budget and the certainty for next year's budget going forward. And I'm not here to be the one to say we shouldn't hold any elections as much as possible. It's just that I between now and the last time I talked to you the bulk of the conversations and the work that I've done has been with school districts. I was on the phone late last night with Caitlyn Howard from Harwood and then again this morning. And it's town clerks are really nervous about how they're going to conduct these Caitlyn's in the process of trying to recruit volunteers from the school district to serve as poll workers for the Harwood votes. So I'm saying all this to say that I think I appreciated Jeff reacting to the notion that they've all got them scheduled so let's just let that play out and see where we're at on July one. I think that's definitely an option but it won't solve any of the anxiety that's out there right now, but from both a budget perspective and how many of these votes are we going to have to hold and and how are we going to find the resources to do that. So I would just advocate for any solution that at the very least doesn't require any additional votes than they otherwise would be having in the regular course of business and I understand you revote budgets that get voted down and that may need to happen if nothing happens but there've been a few suggestions out in the ether that that at least when I read them would actually layer on additional votes that wouldn't otherwise be required and I would avoid that at all costs. I wouldn't be surprised that if a, if another option was come up to become up with between now and June 30, if some of these districts would actually cancel their votes, I can't speak for them but there's enough stress around the holding of them that if they had another option soon. I could see some of them deciding not to hold the votes. I think built in though is the ability to petition to to have a vote. Yes. Yeah. Dylan. Hey everyone I'm sorry I was a little late I actually was over at the town clerk's office in Essex, helping stuff ballots for both a municipal vote that we usually hold in April, and for our school district vote. So just, you know, seeing this up close the last couple days and talking with some of our local elections officials and our town clerk staff, everyone is working so hard to make this work, including school board members who are volunteering and justices of the piece. I do want to agree in part with something that we just heard from will sending to to caution decision makers in the state House, doing a vote on the fly, unless it's in person is not possible. The preparation of ballots in our district is a significant undertaking. I think I'll probably go down a little bit this weekend and help our town clerk. And while we have today maybe 12 volunteers stuffing ballots. We have 17,000 in the community. So the notion that districts, somehow over the next 45 days or so would be able to hold multiple elections short of holding one in person is very challenging for me to see how it would be possible. And so I just want to put that on the table because it is an enormous lift. It's, I support doing it by mail in our community in this case. But if other communities in order to achieve health and safety needs, go that route, they will not have adequate time unless we provide some relief so that's just an observation based on my recent experiences, it's an anecdote, but I do think it's an insight that we need to be aware of. I think that's where I'll leave it for now. Thanks. Thank you. If I may, Madam Chair. Yes, please. Karen Horn. I would certainly second representative Jim Ventista's comments there. And I think that every town and village that's thinking about taking advantage of h947 should have passed wants to hold an election, but the mechanics of how you do that and the timing and can you get it done before July one are really big questions right now. So given the options I've put forward to both Dylan and to Karen, what is, could you clarify what you would recommend. I appreciate being asked. I need to think about this, and this is part of the problem we don't have time. And I acknowledge that this is a bit of a paradox that were that were stuck in and I really think though that the reality of achieving a safe vote in this environment when we have a stay home order that's been extended until June 15, squaring with the need to provide relief to districts. I understand that we have very strong tenants of needing to have local decisions on school budgets, but achieving that in the mechanics of holding votes. It is very difficult. I got to think about that I appreciate the question. Karen. We had suggested, I may have been last week was that you adopt a budget with whatever increment the committee feels appropriate. I don't, I'm not qualified to speak to that, but, and then, and then when you think about when it is okay to vote or you have have the time to have figured out how you might hold a vote. There, there'd be a possibility for supplemental kind of budget. I think some towns are looking at that right now some villages, excuse me are looking at that now. The skinny budget. Yeah, the skinny budget it's what you're doing. Yeah, we're doing it with the general fund. Yeah, thanks, Madam chair, doing. I recognize all the hard work you're doing and literally looking at that photo you sent. If your budget if the school budget goes down, you're going out to do the same thing all over again. Am I mistaken. I mean, I was looking at all it's stacked up in that town clerk's office, and the, what sounds like a huge supply chain challenge of getting them in a timely fashion printed into envelopes and so forth. I was hard pressed to understand how we could for a June 2 boat in our case achieve another round of balloting. So I think there's part of it that assumes or presumes that the budgets would pass. And we won't know until we know I'm not speaking specifically from my district here but in general. We do need to work very quickly on this. I think, you know, leaving these districts and in some cloud is really not fair. And as much as I hate to say it I'm also I'm almost tempted to just maybe concur with the Senate and and let it go I think further negotiation may not work. I think we've seen that. So that's my two cents I guess. Yes. I think I'm feeling the same way in terms of Dylan and what Karen has brought forward in the last couple of days on the news you've been hearing about town clerks that can't find poll workers. My municipality of Colchester they've led to staff from the town clerk's office go to the savings. So for me. I don't want to be like wishing and hoping I want to know specifically can this be done. Can it be implemented. If we can the voting actually happen are there enough poll workers, can it be timely because I, I'm just concerned about what we saw with the unemployment benefit. If you ask oh and I'm not saying that was anybody's fault it was like definitely a capacity issue. You know there was a demand and a lack of capacity which was understandable, you know to try to get those claims, you know, going from 14,000 to 80,000 one day or whatever. It was just impossible it wasn't going to work and no one I don't think could have predicted that but I would like to try to be as clear as possible, so that we can lower the stress and anxiety of Vermont voters, especially in these towns, that it may be in terms of Dylan talking about local control versus, you know what is reality, you know what is going to be kind of the easiest way to get through this with the best results with the least anxiety, and maybe just suspend some things in order to achieve that outcome. Anybody else. I'm not seeing a uniform plan coming forward, which leaves us doing nothing. Okay, can I just ask. If the school budgets, let's say voted right. And then could the fall back be the Senate proposal. That's the Senate bill. Okay. It sounds like the school, the schools voting as many times as they need to to pass a budget, but as a default, it would go back to the 2020 spending. Peter. Yeah, thanks I apologize for the dog barking in the background. Listening to the testimony yesterday and ways and means and I was sort of contemplating what would it take for school boards to address or to read to redo their budgets between now and primary day is a good day to do it and I was thinking you wouldn't even be able to debate, cutting the football team and that amount of time much less take on all the other things. And I'm very, you know, if districts hold votes, those budgets are rejected. We're then asking them to try to do that again if you know I for a while I was thinking yeah just let them keep keep follow current law keep voting until they get a budget. But as I think about the logistics, the practicality and the health and safety issues around that, you know, I hear people saying, hey, I don't want to open a bunch of envelopes and, you know, given that they could be carrying germs. That's a real fear from real people. And yet, having 2020 as a fallback is, is not an answer that is going to be one that is going to is going to help our kids next year. I guess I'm not, I think there's got to be a better way than just walking away from this and saying, hey, FY 2020. If you can't get it done. That's just not sufficient to me I guess I'd rather look at at something else and again like said we don't need to decide this today I don't think I think we can continue to debate next week and let people digest over the weekend. I think just sort of say no, if you can't get it done. Try to make all these cuts when I look at Milton having to make a million dollars of cuts or Wyndham southeast being Brattleboro having to go with 2 million, cutting 11 FTEs at a time when we're going to kids coming back with significant increased needs. It just does not seem to be the way to go. Kathleen. Yeah. Yeah, I guess in my mind whenever I'm having a very hard time making a decision I just start trying to rule out things that I just can't that are just very difficult for me to live with. And, you know, I don't know how other people on the committee feel, but I really hope that we can rule out doing nothing. Because I think the districts need to hear from us. And I think that they need help. And I really hope that we can rule out saying good luck holding a vote and if you can't get something passed you're you're stuck with FY 20 levels that could be devastating to you. In my mind anyway I've got a list and the two things that I would love to be able to cross off our FY 20 good luck, and we can't help you. Thanks. Thank you. One of the things I think we need to keep in mind is again what's happening in ways and means as the possible solutions. And that does involve the potential for some clawing back from all of the districts. We need to keep that in mind because if that does happen, and we have, we have a group that has a budget that is maybe not even past. Where do they fit in comparison to districts that are that are done. Either did I see you ready to say something. No. I'm going to turn to Chelsea and and Sue and Jeff. I have nothing to add but I just want to thank you all for inviting us to be here. It's great to see all your faces. I really do so appreciate you doing all this work. Put it in. Yeah. Speaking on behalf of the district that we've been working with. I want to extend my thanks for the deliberations you're undertaking. I think the gravity of the situation cannot be overstated. So my preference would be to respectfully ask that you take the week and reflect on the information that's been provided and all the conversations that we've had. I guess it goes without saying, but come back next week ready to move forward somehow because this is a very challenging situation. And I think that the, these districts are in, are in, you know, they feel as though they're in limbo, but they feel as though they're in limbo facing potential really bad outcomes. If they don't have the resources they need to serve kids. So I guess therein lies the dilemma. And I do deeply appreciate the time you've taken with us. And I assume that you will share this information with with the Senate as well. I think that's a good idea. I'd like to send the link to this video along with it. I would just like to thank all of you again for the opportunity to present this information and also just let you know that these four meetings that we held with the superintendent and school board chairs. All these school board chairs were there for, you know, they've spent hours and hours on this and it is so highly important to them and school board. It's not the only role in their lives, but I can see that it's become a major role in their life because of this issue, due to the, the amount of time that they're spending on it and it's really just incredible their dedication so like to thank them for that. That's why they get paid the big bucks. Right, right. Larry. You know what moving on a few months what happens if schools aren't open in September. Therein lies the mystery. You mean if school buildings are not open if school buildings are not open. You know where do we go. You know, I know we can't certainly budget for something like that at this point. I think in speculation, it has to be considered by some, maybe the agency of education, or someone but it has to be a consideration. And it appears that, you know, that might be a possibility that schools may not be open in September. So, you know, this is Jeff again. So, here's what I do know. I know that throughout the entirety of the crisis navigation so far. There's not been any reluctance on anybody's part from the governor on down to ask schools which may be our most consistent public institution across the state of Vermont. And I mean in terms of the scale of service in kids in communities, I was a municipal manager myself and will not underestimate the challenges that municipalities are facing. But I was on a call this morning about utilization of school resources for summer camps and programs. We are living in an environment where the schools are basically asked to provide as close to the equivalent of wraparound services we can in our communities as possible. And the notion that we would say, continue that level of service, but we're going to diminish for these 19 your resources to be able to do that. I would argue is extremely problematic. And I would add that we do fully realize and I was quoted in the newspaper and the radio in response to the governor's proposal yesterday. We understand that we're all in this together, but the emphasis should be on we are all in this together and that's really what trying to contend with the dilemma of these 19 districts is about. I really bear in mind that districts now with past budgets, including my own are very likely looking at those places where they can potentially look for savings. I know it's difficult but it's a little bit easier to be looking for savings when you actually have the money. I can confirm that I'm having regular conversations with school leaders about how it is they're going to try to reduce an FY 21 in order to get ready for FY 22, which they know is also going to be extraordinarily unprecedented in terms of the challenges we face. So this issue has come to us from the COVID-19 directives which has brought us to a situation where voting is a real challenge. It's risky for health. It's risky for health protection is a concern. Town clerks are concerned and financially strapped voters may be unwilling to support budgets so we know that voting is an issue. So the issue of equity that we continue to talk about in this in keeping these districts in the same camp as the rest of our districts that have past budgets and not setting sort of two camps to conditions for moving forward, particularly knowing that we have. The 2022 budget year that will be very stressful. And we don't necessarily have solutions and vision for that at this point. We know that school districts are already pretty stressed. We've certainly heard from some of them we should probably do for an update from from the districts and how that's how that's going. And we know that the cuts to budgets that are already pretty lean and 80% of it is. It's not much you can do is is a challenge which is why we're we brought this topic up in the first place and and I will will say that our committee is not the only committee that cares about this the Senate committee cares about this as well. So we have that joint interest in in finding a way forward for our school districts. And I don't know, I can't predict what will happen but I think that the call to take the weekend. Think about it. And we'll, we'll take it up again. The point is, yes, we are really running out of time. We do have, we do have votes coming up in a week and a half. For some of these districts on the 26th and the second looks like we've got four districts I think that are coming forward. So we'll have a little bit of an idea then and we do know that we'll be back in August. If there if we really have emergencies that we need to step in on if we don't come to some kind of resolution now. And with that in mind. This is where I usually turn to Peter for a real closure. Just a question of logistics. I know we have going to have the New England Board of Higher Education next week. They have a 30 minute presentation for us. I think we can allow another half an hour for questions. And then I was going to look to have Mark and Chloe come in and talk to us about some of the proposals coming from that were before the ways and means in the second half of it. Yeah, my only question was just given the sort of pressure of this. We may need to tentatively schedule some additional time if it's available. I don't have anything set for Friday. I'm not sure what we have lined up currently. But it does feel really late though, doesn't it? Everybody. Yeah, I'm, you know, I would, I'm not looking forward to, but I will take the weekend to think about all of these issues of forcing votes when people don't want to do them. And they don't feel it's safe and struggling with a bunch of level that may not be sufficient to take care of our kids. So we'll, we'll allow some time to talk about it. Serita, take some time to talk about it on Tuesday to see if there's any, any movement. And also if there's any movement from the Senate. I'm just wondering if there's any new information I don't, you know, any new information that any of us can think of that we could gather to help with this decision that we don't already have. Well, I think, I think that this document that the, that the superintendent and, and principals and school board members associations gave to us is sort of pulling together the information. Yeah, I don't know if in here we hear what the effect is I think in this document it will say what the effect is if they are left with a 2020 is that correct. Does it answer that. Yeah, that's correct so it breaks down the difference between their proposed budget right now and FY 2020 spending so ultimately the Senate proposal. And then it kind of talks through the actual on the ground realities of that. And you'll see that there are some differences across districts depending on their circumstances but the bottom line is it mostly means programmatic cuts since contracts are settled. If they were left with that and we're not not able to pass a budget. Right. But all that information is in the packet we gave you. Just a treasurer. You know, I think we passed here I know we passed a bill in terms of her ability to do interagency transfers. Is that a possibility as well to get some additional revenues. That would be in the daily work of ways and means. I think they're looking at, they're looking, they've got a variety of options that they're looking at things, even those beyond the ones that that mark presented. Okay, our eternal subject. And with that I guess we are we are done for the day unless anybody has anything else any other topics that they want to bring up. I'm just looking forward to our meeting on Tuesday with the new England board of higher education. We had a little bit of a preview I think it'll be valuable. Sent home a couple of I think I sent you a couple of documents. I don't know what I said, but anyway, every I'll check with you and make sure that folks have a little light reading to do this weekend related to some some interesting thoughts, nationally and into England related to trends in higher education. We're joined for that meeting by the House Commerce and Economic Development, as well as the chair of appropriations will be joining us as well. And we will let the colleges and VSEC and whomever know that it's on so they can watch, but I think I won't invite them in the room, keep it for us. Okay. So with that. And go off.