 brilliant. So before we start, we have two things that we have to address. Kirti, you want to do those? The antitrust and the... Well, well, Wipin, I don't remember the whole of it, so please feel free to go ahead. Yeah, I mean, there are basically two things. One is the fact that we are operating under the antitrust policies of the Linux Foundation, which antitrust, of course, the meaning is shifting now with Lena Khan as the head of FCC, and her incredible article on antitrust is, you know, is really a eye-opener to the concept of antitrust. I urge you to read it if you haven't. So with that antitrust policy, then the second thing we have to address is the code of conduct, which basically means that we treat each other with respect even when we are disagreeing. That's essentially it, plus, you know, the fact that we should be attributing other people's work if we are quoting them. In fact, I have to open with the statement that most of this work is derived from material that is out there. It is not by any means just original, but there are some original thoughts that we will provide during the discussion. So Kirti, you want to go ahead and talk about introduce yourself and I can introduce myself and then we can go from there. Sounds good. Thanks, Wipen. So my name is Kirti. I'm currently pursuing research at Token Academy into basic ILS construct for Solvency 2, which is more of a possibility of a fit for security tokens in a regulated environment using AMM. So this is more of an exploratory conversation and this is where we think we can share some of the findings from our basic research as well as look at broader application of these methodologies into regulated space. So that's been my basic objective. Wipen, after you. Yeah, as you know, I have been leading this group for a while and helped launch this group and also the identity group in Hyperledger and I'm also active in interoperability in digital currency global initiative as Mark knows. And the other thing I have to say is I have been sort of on the sidelines looking at what is happening in DeFi because everybody's talking about it, of course. And then I tried to delve deep into it is more of a educational component for me. But as we go through the talk, I'll provide my my insights that I've learned or the parallels that I draw with my experience, which is in capital markets fixed income. You know, in big investment banks and also in other areas, primarily a technologist. So you want to drive this. You want to say anything about this agenda that we have in front of us. Yeah, definitely, definitely. So this is again going to be a very guided conversation and mostly we welcome a lot of participation as a part of the agenda. So the basic outline for today's agenda is more on terminology trying to understand a few terms, which are relevant to, you know, the DeFi space will briefly touch upon yield farming, and the strategy that drives yield farming. Why do people actually do this. We'll talk about some of the basic building blocks off yield farms such as the MN and liquidity pools. And of course, the last bit is to more kind of touch upon the promise and the risks, and perhaps look at some of the material which is out there. And of course, contemplate on how things could go wrong, and where we are on the maturity curve, and what we think could possibly evolve from this initial exploration. We've been. Next, you know, let's go to the right to the terminology. I mean, either I can take this or you can do it, but Sure. Happy to kind of take this up. So, like the basic construct is like a lot of people have heard of yield farming DeFi. What that all means, you know, so yield farming is perhaps the best way of putting it is a predefined strategy for creating yield. And this predefined or pre programmed strategy is basically created through a bunch of smart contracts or call it a protocol. And this is generally one of the most basic strategies that you could probably see is lending and market making today. And that's what it is. Automated market making is This is like a possibly some sort of a revolution, not that, you know, the basic mathematics behind it has always existed but now that people are able to do this through smart contracts and able to trade this through a decentralized system makes it really exciting so you know, one is a type of a decentralized exchange and it allows for digital assets to be traded. So, obviously, you have basic actors. So the basic actors are people who look at the whole, you know, construct the pool and of course you have the traders who are active participants who are taking in and utilizing the services of these decentralized exchanges. Of course, next is total value locked. So what does that mean so total value locked is a is a metric which defines the size of a particular defy market and it is kind of like possibly a sum of all the value, which is back to some sort of a US dollar indication of the total value of the pool. So you could probably say the total value locked in Uniswap or total value locked in Binance could be an indicator of you know what what is the actual money which is available there and like vice versa you could also talk about it in in context of a trading pool. So these are the relevant ways of looking at it. Liquidity pools. Liquidity pools are these little, I would say, innovative smart contracts, which run basically on a specific algorithm. And these are responsible to help you swap one asset for another. They're always traded in pairs, and they can kind of support or facilitate different types of strategies that it's trading lending. And some of the most popular ones that you may all have already heard of are Uniswap, Pancake Swap, Pickle, Pickle is another one, Ave. So you know all of these, I'm sure you've heard of these products out there in the market defy space. Liquidity providers and LP tokens. For a bad, for a lack of better choice of words, I would simply call these people as brave individuals who are ready to kind of provide some sort of a collateral to begin a pool and provide liquidity to a pool in exchange for LP token LP token is nothing but a receipt to say that on a smart contract, it issues an LP token, which is a digital token indicating the share of collateral that is provided by a liquidity provider to the specific pool. And of course, flash loan is a loan that is provided within the timeframe it takes to create a new block on blockchain. So, this is more of a similar loan product but it's defined by a pre-programmed strategy again so it's got like a start time end time within which this contract can execute. So that is the basic outline and popular terminology in defy space. Moving on. Yeah, so I can take this one. So basically there are three components to yield according to the according to one of the references. One would be the borrowing demand, which obviously as the demand for a any particular token increases, I mean, demand for a particular token increases because of the bull market associated with it. So, the yield on that to borrow that particular token would increase that the yield on that would increase with the demand. For example, I think they cite the USDC increased from 2% to 3% API, which is a year on year API. And the revenue sharing token revenue sharing yield is comes through either participating in a loan pool or in a liquidity pool, the tokens that result from that, and that also produces yield in terms of revenue sharing. And then you have liquidity mining, which is to bootstrap the pool when you give, when you provide any asset into the pool, you get tokens in return which have prices on their own plus it allows you certain rights. And all that you have to remember that in the liquidity pools. Often, there is a pair, like, like Kirti said, the pair is going to be one side is going to be always most of the time a stable coin. And the other side is going to be one of the more popular tokens being traded. It's always this twin always exists only because the stable coin provides low volatility and the other other sides provides high volatility, which is used to extract yield from other areas. But in the main, it is the price going up that causes the speculation. If the price were to dip, then liquidity disappears like in regular markets. Anyway, you want to go to the next slide. Definitely. Over here, we talk about basic yield farming protocols and now the simple question to ask is, what, why yield farming protocols and why not anything else because basically the definition and defy space is to look at a B a P y optimization all that means is how much of returns can you make per year by some sort of, you know, by giving away your security tokens or locking away your security tokens in some sort of a pool. And these strategies are are the most popular strategies that exist in the market today, and and they're basically two profound protocols which enable these the seal forming strategy altogether. And most of the times these are pre pre program strategies so what it does is for the protocol for loanable funds. Again, it's lending and borrowing of on chain assets so you could put in one coin and borrow something, but the basic step is to kind of first create some sort of a collateral pool, which is a stable coin collateral pool. So you can go away and borrow some funds and create a pool and then create some sort of a liquidity for that liquidity mechanism for that specific pool. So it's like a four step strategy. And these yield forming protocols have a combination of, you know, these loanable fund protocols as well as the M and protocols together so you know, on one side you're lending something on the other side you're also creating some sort of a token by providing some sort of a token LP token perhaps, which is issued for the collateral that you provide so an automated market maker on the other hand is its core functionality is to provide liquidity and and while providing liquidity. What does it mean is it enables trades that swap different types of swaps again in a token pair so people can come in if they wanted to exchange their at four die, they could use this pool. They pay a small fee. This fee is again, you know, diverted back into the pool so over a period of time. The pool accumulates accumulates this fee and the liquidity provider can later at a given stage decide if he wants to liquidate that and he could take away a share of the profitability from the pool so that is the basic incentive that is provided as a part of the automated market making and a similar intent incentive is provided by loanable funds. So, obviously, because you are taking on a certain risk from the market you're rewarded by the interest which is provided from the loan. And again, this is a pre program strategy so the minute the the the lending and borrowing cycle ends. You are allocated the the profitability or interest which is associated with the loan and directly to your key public, sorry, your account or your public address. Now moving on from here. So this is the basic AMM mechanism. I want to make a couple of remarks about the other slide. So, in the AMM, one of the most important control controlling functions is the conservation function or the bonding function, we will go into detail on this. Later on the presentation. So, and also we see the two types of actors that are here. Liquidity providers, who are the ones who are providing liquidity and traders, who are actually using that liquidity to swap one input to an output, which which is a pair that is locked up in the AMM. Liquidity is meant to be a measure of whether a particular trade can move the market in a highly liquid market. Huge trades cannot even move the market like for example, in US Treasury bonds. You know, a single actor cannot change the liquidity. And this meaning cannot change the price. So liquidity and price are intimately related and AMMs try to have a conservation function which is basically a conservation of price by various techniques. And we will go into that in detail later. So, please go to the next slide and you can next slide and you can talk about this or I can talk about it. Oh, yeah, I was just thinking. Yeah, I was just thinking, I mean, is it conservation of price or is it kind of more of a conservation of a spread to create the market. But basically, the conservation function tries to conserve, you know, the, the movement of the price with respect to the size of the trade, right. I mean, that so in terms of whether it is a conservation of price. The ultimate effect should be the conservation of price, but it is achieved through different means, or different techniques. So going back to your question, what, what exactly were you asking. You know, I was thinking, I mean, I think about it personally just a bit like I'm, you want to conserve the spread because the prices could, could move. I mean I think that's fair. It's not to fix. It's actually to allow the prices to move, but not you're right not that that's driven on market dynamics not on the lack of liquidity per se. And so to attract the liquidity, but then so it's like more is trying to preserve a spread based on the available liquidity so that the market is at all times optimized for liquidity. So let's talk about that because spread in this case is normally a spread between a stable coin and a token. Since the stable coin is supposed to be low wall and is meant to be pegged to the US dollar or some other currency. The conservation of spread ultimately results in the conservation of price of the token, because what the spread is, you know, indicating is how volatile is that asset that you're trading that you're swapping right the other asset, other than the stable coin. Yeah, go ahead. So sorry that makes a lot of sense because if you're restricting the spread, obviously the price will be, you know, a lot more predictable and stable and the volatility volatility reduces as a function right. If you are talking about the spread between two separate tokens that are not stable, then yes, the prices move independent independently outside. Anyway, so I think we can go ahead but mark your question is very valid. What is it conserving, right. That is a very valid question. Anyway, going back to the core actors, the user actions and the pool state. Here, we think of, you know, this is again from one of the references core actors are the liquidity pool creator, the liquidity provider and the exchange user which is basically the investor or the exchange person who does the exchange. That is the user of the pool. But the exchange user can appear in different forms that is a regular user who wants to just borrow fun. I mean just convert us to that say to some token, and then invest it and hold that token, and maybe the price of the token outside the pool will come back to it. And then, you know, then he wants it appreciates, then it can be converted back to a stable form. But there can be speculative users who can attack the pool and take, you know, cost the pool to crash and profit in the meantime. As far as the reserves go, we have, you know, token A token B and token C here but normally like, I mean, this can, this is a multi token pool, but often the setting is between token. A pair of tokens like Keith he said, and all of the activity of the users result in either increases or decreases to the reserves and increases or decreases to the liquidity shares, and the actions are shown there. This is a very simple model, right. I mean, the actual amm's have are composed of these simple actions. In the end, they can construct very complex types of activity using these simple actions. Now, could he want to say anything more about this, or the next slide. Please go ahead. Well, the only thing that I could probably think about is just to kind of give give like a name to a face. So for example, liquidity pool creator is someone who help you facilitate creation of these pools based on again, some sort of a predefined amm, you know, algorithm which is available out there like, for example, Uniswap token Uniswap balancer, you know, all these guys. Now a liquidity provider could be you and me who hold some sort of a cryptocurrency, who we will deposit this cryptocurrency with, you know, Uniswap, they will allocate some sort of LP token, which is nothing but a liquidity share which is indicative of the, the share that we hold in the specific pool state. And of course, exchange users are people who interact to swap their, you know, crypto one for another. So that's, that's just the comment that I wanted to make. Hope that's helpful. So moving on to the next slide. So the promise weapon this is your area. Basically, what are the, why do people, what is the promise of defy of deal foaming decentralization through automation, because, and of course, once you bring in automation, the speed of the action is magnified. And that's the fact that these operate 24 seven in contrast to regular markets. It's also non custodial. In other words, the custody is through the smart contract. So it's not a human custodying it. These are often very open and auditable, which has dual, you know, the sword can cut both ways, meaning you can see how good the protocol is, but you can also see the weaknesses in the protocol. So you can attack the protocol. The possibility is a slightly interest, you know, more interesting issue, which is not issue, but a feature of the defy. And that's how it has grown so heavily because as we have seen the primitives previously, those primitives, both amm and loan pools can interact with each other. And you can have a workflow that is composed of these primitive actions that can become more and more complex. And obviously, other people's code can offer and their workflows and the liquidity provider, I mean liquidity pool creators can offer this automatic automation advantages at a cost. We can do as an investor, you can take a totally passive approach, which is similar to the approaches that you see in equities today. Other people create workflows, they get paid for it, but you invest using a mutual fund or something else, which is a passive approach. It's an automated strategy which is switching between the LPs, AMMs and everything else in a predetermined manner can maximize the yield. Transactions make individual execution costs of using gas smaller. It's like pulling a transport, right? I mean, if you go from here to San Francisco by car alone, each one taking the road alone, then the amount of fuel that you burn is huge collectively. But if you all pile into a car, you know, if enough people can ride in this vehicle, then the pooling of the fixed cost of transaction of going from one place to another of creating a transaction becomes smaller for individuals. Anyway, you want to drive further or talk about this a little more? Well, I think one of the most lucrative bits is, you know, your annual percentage yield or the APY metric that you briefly touched upon. You know, when these pools start, I mean, the gains are phenomenal, like in yield. For example, there are some pools which offer up to 2,096% and things like that. But, you know, it's again, it's highly promising, but of course, I think we'll touch upon the risk element of it. You know, in the next few slides, which says, yes, there is a great promise, but I think the promise could be a little more controlled and a little more refined to kind of minimize the risks. And I think that's what the conversation segway is. Go ahead. I just wanted to jump in on that point on the APYs. Yeah, it's also like, I mean, a freshly created pool often is reporting its performance based on, you know, a day, a few hours, you know, maybe a week. It looks very promising, but it doesn't give, of course, the full risk picture either. I mean, considering on both the, on both the, you know, how we stand, how we think around standardizing or understanding the risk in a way that is sort of, yeah, actually describing the risk. We'll go into a specific attack that utilizes that ephemeral sort of return to lure investors and then pulls the rug from under their feet. That common one pool attack. We'll go into that in a minute. Interesting. Go ahead. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I wanted you to touch upon these liquidity risks and liquidation risks. I think these are very important elements to cover. Yeah, it's a. It's the standard issue stuff, which is basically liquidity risk is related to the utilization rate. That means the amount that is in the pool. A proportion between them are lent out to the amount that is in the pool that it can be called a utilization rate. And obviously the maximum that can be lend. Lent from the pool is the amount that is in the pool. We're not talking about leverage here. So utilization rate approaches one. Which means almost all the pool is lent out. The liquidity risk increases. So lenders can have difficulty getting their funds out when utilization rate is close to one because almost all their, the provided liquidity is gone. Liquidation risk is when the value of the collateral. That the borrower has put into the pool falls below a. Liquidation threshold the borrower receives the collateral back, which is now worth much less minus a penalty. So borrowing using stable coins collateral decreases this risk because obviously stable coins are meant to be stable. So the liquidation risk in a stable coin collateral will be lower than others. So in these two cases, one is for lenders, the other is for borrowers that the risk. The possibility risk. Can break down into everybody right because the complex strategies. Can result in your. Stop being stolen or lost. Same thing with bugs in smart contracts. Then the recent realization risks. Which is, although everybody says this is decentralized. There are pool operators who are nothing but central counterparties. In fact, and they have control of the admin keys, which control the smart contracts so they can actually change the smart contracts. And create risk because either you cannot take out any of your collateral, or you cannot take out any of the liquidity that you're provided. And it gets stolen, or it gets diminished in value. Or you're prevented from trading for a while when the market is moving fast. There is that new to recent realization. And that is my, my terminology recent realization. You heard it here first. Interacting smart contract risk. It's also like, when you audit the smart contract, you know that it's safe, but when smart contracts are built on other call other smart contracts and compose a complex strategy. You can have risks, even though they are secure in isolation. The combination may not be. May not be safe. So that's my take on this. I would like to say something about this. Well, I think my comment is more to do with crypto economic complexity because the, these pre program strategies are vast, and sometimes it's difficult to foresee how the economic system works in it, in its all elements. It creates like some weaknesses, either within, you know, the basic contracts which are being used, or the, the functions that are being used because of the basic, I would say, parameterization so better parameterization better, you know, controlling that may be required. I mean sometimes not exist for crypto economic complexities. Of course, this is a non regulated market, but it kind of gives us an indication as to how much work is yet to be done in this specific space before any of this can actually enter, you know, regulated assets or anyway close to that scenario. Just the thought that's it. That's right. By the way, please do not hesitate to ask questions for to make comment. Go ahead. We already went through some of these liquidity reward is taking reward we didn't really talk about but it is evident that it is a reward that is accruing to liquidity providers or others who have contributed to the protocol and have staking tokens. And the governance right is, of course, what what is part of deciding how the protocol itself is changing, meaning the conservation functions or the hyper parameters that are attached to the conservation function, which will go to in a second. Then there's a security reward, which is if you find a security hole, you can get rewarded for finding that. Obviously, for obvious reasons, many people who find security calls will actually make use of the security calls and get rewarded much more than they were through a security reward. Explicit costs, which we did not talk about is liquidity withdrawal penalty that accrues to liquidity providers, swap fee, which is the main engine that drives all AMMs, which is the users swapping one asset to the other, are charged a fee for Unisop, for example, is 0.3%. And then there's a gas fee that accrues to the protocol, the overriding protocol, in this case, either Ethereum gas fees. Then there's implicit costs called slippage, which is basically a difference as spread between the external spot price of any asset and the spot price inside the pool. That's slippage. And divergent loss is a more complex construct, that is, if I'm holding a token A, because I'm participating in this pool, my token A is now subject to a token B's price changes, and I can also get the price of my token sort of going down. And it's also called an impermanent loss because, impermanent because of the fact that I can take out the token A somehow and trade it in the open market, I can recover that loss, or that loss is supposed to, you know, go away because arbitrage opportunities open up. And the theory is that arbitrage users would drive the price back to its actual price. Anything more, Kirti? No, I think we've covered all of it pretty well. Well, I'm feeling that I am an expert more and more as I look at this stuff, but I'm not. I'm just masquerading as an expert. Anyway, so this is something I love, which is basically any pool can be modeled as a state and any action by the outsiders like providing liquidity or doing a swap basically changes the state. Of the pool. So, all this complex stuff doesn't mean much. It just says that the state is represented by a reserve of a token RK, where, you know, you can go cycle through all the tokens, R1, R2, so on, RK. PK is the price of that token. So, the conservation function basically tries to smooth out the state change. And then part of the conservation function C is, I mean, the conservation function C is also part of the state, and Omega, which is the hyper parameter attached to the pool. For a liquidity change, you're not supposed to, for a pure liquidity change. Only thing that changes is the conservation function action, right, because the conservation function is the only thing that that's why it's marked in red with a C prime. Everything else says the same. For a swap, on the other hand, the input token price is affected. The input token price is also affected. The output token price is slightly shifts up. The input token price slightly shifts down. Obviously, the price movement has to be kept small. That is a whole idea of AMM. But it doesn't happen in theory. So this is a pure swap state transition only changes the price. The pure liquidity change only changes the conservation function. These are the two actions through which the state change happens. But as you can see, the liquidity change, for example, has some swap function built into it because the liquidity. You know, you withdraw liquidity, you can have a penalty, which obviously results in that penalty being reinvested automatically as a form. So the liquidity has inside it, liquidity change has inside it, an element of price action. Swap, on the other hand, is the same thing, right, when you're charging. When you're charging a swap fee, you can change the liquidity. So it can also change the conservation function. So nothing is pure. Every action is got a mixture. Anyway, go ahead. So all I wanted to say was, as an actor, as a liquidity provider or a user or a, you know, or a trader, you can affect the prices and the way the conservation function behaves. And that is the source of many attacks, which we'll come to in a minute. Here, you know, some of the curves that were drawn off the relationship between a pools token one reserve R1 and R2. So let's say Ethereum and us us DC. You know, you can take one of them will always be a stable coin. Several curves drawn with different hyper parameters, the hyper parameters being slippage or waiting. It's beyond the scope of this call to talk about the actual formula that that was that are in the conservation functions and how they are affected by the hyper parameters in constant sums or constant product or Oracle price functions. It may appear very esoteric, but it's not. If you really delve into it is a very simple function. But people, you know, use basic functions and they build upon it and they look at the attacks and they try to change the function to take care of the attack in their protocol. So Uniswap, for example, has come out with version three, which is a slightly different function from the version one, not slightly highly different. Go ahead. If you have anything more anyway here, we have some attacks that we talk about, which is the Oracle attack. The Oracle attack happens when the price source is only the protocol itself, meaning that pool itself, instead of using price signals from the outside. And as a flash loan happens before the block is created, that means you take out the money and you put it back the money before the next block is created. So the price may go bananas. And using that, using that vector, people have attacked many protocols and profited a lot. Even though the flash loan attacks are well studied, just like last month, there was an attack on the pancake bunny or pancake with a flash loan attack. Then the rug pool attack we talked about, which is basically during the formation of any pool, a lot of naive investors are drawn into the pool and as a example, there may be a token pair that is, for example, a brand new token and an established token like USDC. The attacker sells vast amounts of the new token and naive investors buy into it with USDC. And the attacker converts it into USDC immediately and disappears with the funds because USDC is valuable outside. Well, it doesn't have to be USDC, it can be USD or USDT or any of the stable coins. So a quick comment here, Wipin. So the rug pool generally happens in, you know, all these new token issues with wherein you have liquidity bootstrapping that simply means you start some sort of a pool with very low collateral. So that's where something like this happens when you start issuing tokens and then the rest of the mechanism is as Wipin clearly explained. So this is one of the reasons why you would always see when a token is launched, you see the value skype really high, especially, you know, the tokens which are launched on these decentralized exchanges. Of course, immediately you will see that the tokens being dumped and the value is almost one fourth or possibly one tenth of whatever it was. So just an interesting note for everyone who trades in crypto so to keep a watch out for this one. I think you know, you can explain some of the others, the front running, back running, sandwich attacks. Anyway, the whole point is crypto is no, you know, dex is no protection against this kind of these kind of attacks. I think we have come to the almost to the end of this slide. I mean, slide deck. We can we can take questions from the audience. Also, we can make a closing statements in a minute if people do not have questions. Igor, no questions. I'm actually thinking of a question. So first of all, thank you very much for this interesting presentation. It's been great. The question that I have in mind is the following. Now, it is my understanding that obviously all these yields are due to high volatility tokens and until all this crypto roller coaster of emotions is not over, it's not going to be regulated. But here's the question. Do you think the market is ready or not for using asset backed tokens for this kind of instruments and mechanics. Yeah, in fact, that will be our next presentation. How can we so so I'll answer it in two ways. Right. First thing I have to say is there is nothing new here. Most of these techniques are are seen in regular. Even regular. You know, in traditional markets, harsh. Are you. Can I mute you or somebody. Yeah, it's harsh, I think. So that's one second is of course the main difference between traditional markets and this is the speed and the 24 seven and the automation and the fact that we have naive investors, but naive investors have been shown not to be naive. Right. Especially with like meme stocks and other other phenomena. So, I would say that it is soon coming to traditional markets. The front end, the trading part is already done, meaning we have program trading in the world for a long time. Obviously, there were many, many problems with it, which we don't really see some of them are, you know, ways in which the program trading has gone wrong with flash crashes and other phenomena. They usually have circuit breakers, which we, we also have in a sense inside the AMMs. So there is. So to answer your question, I think yes, it's going to happen. How soon we don't know. And they'll adapt every technique, we don't know. But then can I add a couple of comments. Yes, of course. Yes, so Igor, one of the simplest answers to your question could also be that we could utilize some parts or some smart contracts or tools which exists today from the defi space and create some sort of a different model. Obviously, it won't be an extreme defi space, it'd be more like a CFI arrangement to still be able to do some sort of liquidity provision for niche assets which are traditionally not traded through a specific exchange. So these methodologies could still be used. And of course, like a whip inside we're still a little far away from it, but we are researching into that area. We are trying to kind of find out the right balances of ring fencing capital, putting in these circuit breakers where necessary, and of course providing the right level of protection which is required for both institutional customers as well as, you know, retail customers. Yeah, we have to unfortunately close at the top of the hour for various reasons looks like the next group is here already. But keep the questions coming for another minute. And we can close with, you know, we can close. Everything unless you have a minute or so. I could just simply like to make a closing statement to say that, while defi and defi space is absolutely innovative in nature. There's a huge potential for capital markets to learn from some of these techniques and use that in a very conservative way in a hybrid way. Put in a lot of controls were required and create some sort of a CFI hybrid where necessary to utilize and harness some of the automation power that defi brings into the existential space. That's and we are still quite far away from being able to do this, but we'll get there I guess eventually because we now we know and we understand what the vulnerabilities are. So that's my statement weapon. I'm up the opinion that, you know, a lot of these things are have been there before, like for example, decks as a concept was decentralized exchange was created back in, I think in the 90s. The other one is the fact that you know, also am ms have been conceived of, but until the arrival of blockchain and of tokens tokenization, it hadn't really taken off. So that's that's it from me. We will continue to explore this space and in terms of asking the question whether how can we get involved. So please interact on the email list or on the wiki page, and we can do it. All right, thank you. And I think we are leaving now. And I'm unfortunately I'm going to have to relinquish my host. Can I assign it to one of you guys who have just joined. Since you're going to be running the next meeting. Yeah, you can assign it. This is Andrew Richardson. I'm actually going to run the next talk if you want to assign it to me. Yeah, we could send it Nico Nico just joined as well, either of us. Yep, I'm happy to take it. Okay, so I'm going to first thing I'm going to do is, I'm going to