 35 Sapoza Beel 83 Voting No 2 Abstained Indu gaso Voting Now the house then proceeded to the plenary where voting was done in the third reading And this Doing this third reading Those who voted yes were 224 And those who voted no were 63 While 2 Abstained Now this week All eyes are on the Senate MPs passed the bill Last week The Senators passed the bill At the county I mean at the parliamentary level Should we expect the same thing that happened at the National Assembly Replicating itself at the Senate level Do you support the bill Will the Senators say yes Or will they say no Should the bill be amended With alterations Or should it be passed as it is We shall be discussing today I am joined by Paul Makoha Who has been with me since morning He is an advocate of the High Court of Kenya And also an aspirant Karub Sanabana Paul It is a pleasure Thank you for keeping tabs with me since morning And joining me in studio I am with Derek Otwenyo He is a youth leader And also Karub Sanababa Before to answer Let me first of all start by dispensing Of these seeds that you are vying for Because the BBI might affect It will affect you Who cannot defend it When we look at the MPs They passed the bill We are looking at 235 votes for the bill Against 83 Are whooping 73% At the National Assembly What do you make of this Let me start with you Otwenyo First of all I would like to stop by saying BBI is the silver bullet That Kenya needs Because Let us look at the gains Instead of the few Translations here and there The gains are much More And they are beneficial Even to the Future generations of Kenya That is One of the major reasons As to why many individuals Support BBI We as the youth Who make up around 70% Of the population We do support the BBI First of all because of The various positions Or rather the benefits Of the BBI And that is why Even at the Senate The BBI will pass But not all youth support the BBI Not all youth support the BBI But you see democracy is a fallacy Where by The majority how they see So the majority No matter the situation Will always how they see You feel like majority of youth Support the BBI Definitely Do you see What happened Are you seeing it happening again Whatever happened at the National Assembly The Senate passed this bill this week Yes definitely It will pass Let me come to you Paul What do you make of it When the National Assembly passed Are there only said You are expecting it to happen Yes definitely it is going to happen I have no doubt about it Even if when you look at What is provided for in the constitution As regards the procedure for amending The constitution Which is being followed right now Even in the event The Senate does not pass it Under the article 257 It will still have to go To trigger down to the people By popular initiative Yes yes it has to go to the people So that regardless of the outcome Of the Senate decision It is immaterial Definitely is going to a referendum Now in addition to that maybe May I also say My brother said that it is a silver bullet That Kenya needs Personally I would really look more Reflect back When President Uhuru And Rihon Reborailo Odinga Stood on those stairs over ambe On 9th of March 2018 They gave us nine point agenda And they said that according to them These were the things or the concerns Which they were now establishing This vehicle to come and look out into them And some of them there are things Even like divisive elections In this country in a lot of problems So to me what Kenya needs most Is we need to look back And see what is the problem That faces Kenya to me that question Of divisive elections The issues of arrangement of IBC To me it is a big question Now Garisa town member Of parliament we are talking about Hondrabul Aire Nduale He is one who voted no during The voting process And he said it was founded On and I quote Lai that Kenyans should not Be cheated that once it is passed It will cure the problem El in the country He said and I quote That there are many people who are telling us about inclusivity I want someone to tell me if this bill Has united Kenyans Or divided Kenyans He went on and said The constitution are not meant For leaders but for the people To check on the leadership He does not believe that it will Cure the problems El in the country I agree with him to some extent BBI cannot be a paniesia For the problems facing Kenya What is facing Kenya right now The big question of poverty People are suffering Didn't the BBI Did that handshake at the Harambe stairs On that particular they bring peace to the country It did That was for a moment Right now we are going to To the next election 2022 If we don't cure the problems Which Kenyans are facing Kenyans are struggling And that is why The BBI initiative itself It's not a wrong thing so to speak And many Kenyans are acknowledging that It's a good effort trying to find some solution To our problems But I think to Kenyans They are just saying There are quite a number of pressing things Which Kenyans are concerned about Right now the issues of covid There are issues of businesses are struggling There is an issue of corruption Which is causing this country a lot of money And all that So I think when we look If we were to look at the needs of Kenyans What are really the needs of Kenyans And that's why I always say That as leaders When we are coming up with a process There are two ways to do it There is either we do what you call Interest driven or need driven Interest driven is what we are saying What we are seeing right now Interest driven in the sense that For example we look at the political class They are just looking for example we need to create this post For us to take care of the regions To take care of ourselves But if they want to look at what are the needs Of the people Then they will adopt what you call The process Derek the response to that Do you agree with him? I don't agree with you totally You see in order to tackle a problem You have to get to the roots Of the problem Take a look at what devolution brought Right now we have County governments And We have county hospitals Referral hospitals All over Is coming up What BBI entails It will be From The revenue allocation 35% And the order location 5% On this bring development Because You find that the Youth population Down there machinani They really Need and rely on this Take a look at what Devolution did to a county like Kakamega Kakamega is very developed At the moment This is Such a scenario Where BBI will come in And that's your county It's my county and indeed I appreciate it Yes it has developed And truly by the way Within BBI Looking at it objectively And which I do Looking at it objectively BBI has good things Personal I support even the Increase of financial allocation To the counties So you say Kakamega So you support that There are good things There are good things in it I'm saying You say that BBI And If I got you correctly There are two things Interest Interest driven BBI is interest driven If it is interest driven How can that Which is interest driven bring positive change On a county where you come from And you acknowledge that it has actually done that It does not mean What I've said actually I don't mean and it cannot mean That when a process is interest driven It is totally wrong I'm saying By the way on that question Whether I'm supporting BBI or not We are yet to reach at the place Where now we make a decision And that will be at the referendum stage At the referendum stage Right now we are looking at the process We are looking at what it provides And having pros and cons At the end of the day of course rationally Every person and every Kenyan Is going to look on the good side BBI has good these things So we are yet to reach there If you're not sitting at the table Then you'd rather break it BBI Let us not overlook The few elements Say that need amendments Like The Imperial Presidential Don't look at that Look at the benefit What benefits Will your people Back at home benefit from it County hospitals Roads Healthcare And education These are some of the main issues Building bridges Across all The counties across people And you see We are heading to a general election After every general election We are blessing No That is why we are building The bridges We are building the gaps we are connecting Of the people What would be your reaction Towards what And I'll come back to you Your reaction towards what Honorable Ed and Wally said That the BBI It is founded on a lie And he said that Kenyan should not be cheated But once it is passed it will cure the problems In the country Well, first of all Let us Disassociate BBI With the likes of Roila Odinga Then we see the benefits Of the BBI You see there are differences And we must disagree to agree But then Alida opposing Something that will bring Change, positivity To his or her own people That is not a leader We have to focus on the positivity As I said Two-third gender rule The youth In as much as the youths Are not included But It is at least a step Towards the better Kenya The Kenya that the former president Maiki Baki Had for vision 2030 We had it there Now, let us not Asassociate BBI To different individuals We cannot be talking about Dinasties, we cannot be talking about The Haslan nation Let us look at this thing as As a report or rather as Changing factor for the country But Honorable Ed and Wally believes Was not brought more unit In fact, he says He was actually saying I want somebody to tell me If the BBI united Kenyans Or divided Kenyans But anyway, moving on The House deputy majority Also gave in his voice That is Honorable Maoka Maori He said and I quote Those who are opposing the BBI Are not opposing it because of its contents But because they feel That the BBI is addressing Those opposing the BBI Are bold headed cowards On that I may agree to some Some level of degree in this sense That truly when you hear People who are raising those descending voices The concern are That no, we need more time To be heard We need to explore more things There are things which are appearing controversial In crement of constituencies And there are a lot of mamas Of unequal distribution Of Vita Those are things that people are getting concerned about That at the end of the day after we pass it How are we going to determine For example that Kiyambo Should have this number of constituencies Should have more than Kamega And when you look In terms of even geographical size And even population They are almost equal In terms of those factors So those are the things that people are raising There are things that question people are raising Even like on Bootsman Where people are apprehensive That we may be taking back the judiciary To the dark days Where the presidents and the executive head Control of the judiciary And may I say this Mr. Vanaram There is a danger If to any level of degree we interfere With the independence of the judiciary One of the things that caused Kenyans To shed blood and fight It was lack of faith and confidence in the judiciary Because they were saying judiciary Is a puppet of the president and the executive It doesn't matter And those are the things that we must be clear about And to me really If it was this process Was being led by a need driven process The way I said Things like independence of the judiciary Should lay the core Discussion of this process Discussing on the issue of independence Of the judiciary as regards financing of it The current constitution Creates what you call the judiciary The judiciary kitty Or the judiciary should sustain itself In terms of finance It should not depend on the exchequer Who are the executive Those are the things we need to be now Looking at how we strengthen it The things about this thing My brother has also said about it About BBI bringing employment and jobs To the youth and all that To me it is true and it is not true To me if we curb the issues of corruption And ensure that for example There are projects like Kulana Kulal Which all of them collapsed There are projects like Kimuare There are projects like when you look in western Factories that collapse If those things the question of corruption Is addressed and all those things Are running this country Youth definitely are going to have employment This country the business is going to be stable It is going to attract investment People are going to come here And the economy definitely is going to be sound So once we address that And we ensure all these projects are running And all the money There is value for the money for Komonumananji Definitely these things we are speaking about The youth and all that it will be addressed We don't need BBI for example To address that But I'm saying at the end of the day again Let those who are speaking about it Let those voices be heard For those concerned to be addressed Do you agree with Mawaka Maori's comment That those opposing BBI According to his words are cowardice Yes To some extent I do believe that because Those people were given The opportunity to come forward To Have their say in The BBI But all they kept Doing what we call the BBI So Mawaka Maori Is right Because We cannot be Going back and forth We need to Channel on Or rather propel forward Because 2022 is here with us We need to put certain aspects In place In order for us to have a successful General elections Elections not like the previous ones So We need to move forward Away from the BBI politics They had their say at that time They did not Come out and speak What they were doing was Associating BBI to certain Individuals Which should not be the case for Well Well non-leaders I'm looking at what you said Employment has been brought And you are Again saying it is a 50-50 issue It is neither here nor there Based on what you said Maybe I can get your reaction Towards that In regards to the rate of employment And if I would also add To that particular issue Your particular stand That Has the ability If passed To promote employment Because right now It has not been passed We cannot say that it has done Anything on the ground We cannot speculate About job creation Because One of the major issues you are facing As a country Is the oversight By the oversight Of the word level Up to the national government You find that Right from the governor's There is misappropriation Of funds The legislature Which should be the watchdog Is not Overseeing The funds You see industries like Panpepa in Webuye Crumbling down Is no oversight But once we carbon The oversight I think Lack of employment Would be a thing of the past Because to me That is the only He kapi facing at the moment I am looking at what Mohammad said We are going to have An inclusive government as a position Will be shared And among communities in the country There are the ills That this BBI is trying to cure Let us not forget Where we are coming from Your thoughts Of course That statement I may disagree with it Because when you look at Kenya has over 42 tribes So even if you say For example that this BBI is going to cure Because there has been a big question Of tribalism And all that So I know One of the Angaring reasons of the proponents of BBI Has been that for example We create some extra posts So that we try to balance out So that if one person from this tribe Is takes the president Another one from another tribe Will take maybe prime ministers post And all that But to me at the end of the day And I will wish to support what he said The statement of If there is a good accountability and oversight Because he has mentioned the issue of weak oversight And by the way indeed It is true You look at this country for example right now The country is overburdened by debts International debts To the tune of over 7 trillion I think that should be the case And that is the cry of people And you know there is even fear That maybe in near future The main resource Endities Like even port of Mombasa There are fears that it may be auctioned By the banks which have loaned us money And when you look at that question Of the money we are taking for example The MPs are supposed To consent or to give an okay To any increase Of borrowing money So you find that truly The way he has said when there is a weak oversight Because right now what is happening In Kenya you find what executive has proposed It has no doubt it will go through It will pass in parliament And to me that is really a weak oversight MPs ought to be strong They need to know that they are representatives of the people They have mandate of the people They have to take care of the interest of the people They have to ensure that they are Whatever step or decision Or position they take It reflects the goodwill of the people But anything which Is going to injure The lives of people Which is going to affect the country at the long Term MPs ought to stand out And say no to it But unfortunately that is not the case at the moment It is like the parliament is a puppet of the executive Which is quite unfortunate Let's hope that as we move That maybe the country is going to have good leadership The parliament has not been a puppet It has been working independently What you mean is not a puppet Tell me any motion In the last five years And it was shut down You will find that there is none Everything that the executive proposes It goes through Yes I concur with this Because