 The final item of business is a member's business debate on motion 11199, in the name of Brian Whittle, on recognising the success of HMP Comaric. This debate will be concluded without any questions being put, and I would ask those members who wish to speak in the debate to please press the request-to-speak button. I call on Brian Whittle to open the debate. I am delighted to rise to celebrate the great work that HMP Comaric has been doing to support the rehabilitation of offenders and the work with the third sector organisations in supporting families of prisoners, as well as helping the transition of prisoners back into their communities. I commend the work of third sector organisations such as the Foundation Hub, which has a facility just outside the prison and to centre stage for the work that they do. It is a really important work, the way in which, 68 weeks before a prisoner's release, they start to work with them to help them to transition back into the community. After all, many of those who are incarcerated at His Majesty's pleasure are not bad people, rather they are people who have made bad choices. HMP Comaric, when we visited him several times, I am always impressed by the new skills that they offer to the prisoners and to the education. The first time that I was in HMP, I was taken into the art class and there was a gentleman there painting, which was quite a magnificent painting. He said that he had only taken up art when he was incarcerated. I asked him why he took him to go to prison to take up art, and his answer was, I never got the opportunity before. In there lies a significant message. The Parliament has really good links with HMSP Comaric. It is important that we do that, because for me it is about making sure that they have a debt to pay to society, but we have to always remind them that they are not forgotten. To that end, I remember offering a football match between the parliamentary football team and the prisoners. I remember asking the parliamentary football team if they would take part, as they all died for cover. We took part in a tritone tournament, and the prison guards also took part. Although I have to say that the prison guards were not all that off-air with us standing at the side, watching the prisoners versus the prison guards shouting mean machine at that point. I am looking round the chamber to see those who recognise that reference. We then decided to take the parliamentary rugby team down and play again a tournament of sevens, which was a great occasion. I have to say that I did get sent off to the Sinbin. I know that you will not believe that. I was a bit mouthy when I got sent to the Sinbin in that particular one. I have also been in to Comaric prison and taken circuit glasses with the prisoners. The way in which we have engaged with Comaric prison has been exemplary. Given the successes of Comaric prison in its care and rehabilitation of prisoners, one has to ask why, in 2019, the then Justice Secretary, Humza Yousaf, gave the throw-away comment during a presentation to the Scottish Prison Service Conference that it was going to take Comaric prison back into public ownership. No reasoning or forethought as to why he decided this course of action and, Deputy Presiding Officer, despite repeatedly being asked a question, the Scottish Government has yet to deliver any kind of coherent response. It smacks, really, of a headline grammid decision rather than a well-thought-out and reasoned one. We have a prison successfully rehabilitating prisoners through their education and skills training, with third sector integrations supporting prisoners' families and prisoners as their approach release, with all that they will need to reintegrate into society. An operator who is willing to build a new 240-bed wing at no cost to the taxpayer with an additional 100 jobs being created at a time when the prison population is causing an increasing pressure on the Scottish prison estate, and we all have a Scottish Government who have made the decision for what can only be used as ideologically-driven reasons to bring the prison into public ownership, because, of course, they know better. My colleagues Russell Finlay, Sharon Dilley and I visited the prison recently to meet with the Governor and representatives of the prison officers to raise their serious concerns, including the fact that, despite with only nine weeks to go, the process of how harmonisation will occur at all levels still remains unclear, yet they were advised two years ago that that was happening. A letter that showed us from the SPS now suggests that TOOP will take about 12 months, and they have to ask the question why. They said that the prison staff will all be SPS public servants from 17 March 2024, operating and managing a public service prison, and, while accepted, TOOP may take four months or less with staffers' season respect of teasing season line with the public sector, equivalent backdating to the 17 March. My measures that the letter does not state indications are the harmonisation and TOOP that the public sector pay rates will kick in from the date of up to 12 months after the transition and might not be backdated. That is morally wrong. Separately, the current SPS pay negotiations are now into 2024, and I know that there is an attempt at a two-year pay deal. HNP Cymarnock agreed their 2023 pay deal last year with the Circle. That has been brought forward to allow Cymarnock to coincide with the SPS pay review for 2024. Staff are entitled to a pay review. If a two-year pay deal is finally accepted with the SPS versus TOOP, how will the 2024 pay review balance for HMSP Cymarnock staff, who will be public servants, or is the suggestion that staff will fall further behind their public sector counterparts during 2024 and a greater injustice potentially? Given the state of the public finances that are well documented, taking away the ideology of nationalism and considering the current condition of public prisons in Scotland with increased overcrowding and dilapidation, is it too late to re-engage with the existing provider to reopen the offer of a building of a third house block, and to further enhance the existing prison where the existing operator has experience and history of quick builds and continuing to operate that significantly reduced cost versus public sector operations? I am providing that much neary new prison space. That is a political decision, and I do get that. However, is it the correct decision for the Scottish taxpayer? The union, community representing the prison officer's position, fully expect their members to revert to SPS terms and conditions immediately following the transfer on 17 March. That is an exclusive of all pay rates and bandings, and therefore, within the first-month salary deposited by SPS to all HMSP Cymarnock staff, then their members will reasonably expect the salary and individual banding to reflect that of all colleagues across the Scottish Prison Service. It is the community's opinion that the SPS is withholding the imposition of full harmonisation due to public cost implications, both for industrial and political reasons. In summary, if community members in HMSP Cymarnock are not reverted to complete parity with all SPS colleagues as of 17 March 2024, then they have already given notice to the SPS that they will raise the appropriate claims on behalf of all their affected members immediately and further any failure to treat the members with complete parity is likely to cause industrial unrest. That is where we are, Presiding Officer. A puzzling decision made on the hoof by HMSP that will cost the public purse more will not see the building of 240 more places by a successful operation that has delivered a service that supports prisoners and their families that works with the third sector to ensure successful integration into society and reduce reoffending. I once again have to congratulate HMSP Cymarnock for all the successes and in doing so ask the Scottish Government to explain their decision to bring it into public ownership. Surely it is not too late to ensure that the best service is maintained and that staff are not disadvantaged when this takeover happens in just nine weeks. Deputy Presiding Officer, I now call Willie Coffey to be followed by Russell Finlay. Thank you very much, Presiding Officer, and thank you to Brian Whittle for bringing his motion to the chamber, which I was happy to support earlier today on the achievements of HMSP Cymarnock in my constituency or Bull House, as we affectionately call it down there. I certainly recognise and applaud the tremendous work done under the guidance of the redoubtable Craig Thompson, the director, over several years there. It always was and still is a pleasure to visit and hear first hand what the latest developments are. I say here because if you know Craig you have to be ready to listen a lot and it's always a pleasure to be in his company. When you get the chances we do, Presiding Officer, to visit a prisoner or any other facility serving the public, you quickly gain an impression of the leadership and I can say that from the minute I met Craig in his team I got the clear impression that the prison and the management approach at Bull House was in very safe hands. I will be absolutely delighted if Craig chooses to continue in post during and hopefully long after to help to guide us through the transition into the SPS. Presiding Officer, Covid was a huge challenge to us all and particularly in our prisons where we had a clear duty to keep staff and prisoners safe. The way the prison dealt with difficult circumstances during that time was a testament to the commitment of the entire circle team and there to be commended for this in particular. Brian Whittle mentioned a few of the local organisations who have close links with the prison, centre stage and recovery enterprises or just two. Their support and link work has been nothing short of amazing and while some of the formal local authority support arrangements stopped during Covid, our colleagues at recovery enterprises kept going, providing essential support for prisoners on the release from prison. A huge thank you to them too. I think that it's fair to say that the 25-year contract has had its ups and downs over the years and I recall shortly after my first election win in 2007 that the union reps came to see me to complain about the contract conditions imposed in the prison by the then Labour executive who set up the initial arrangements for the prison. One of those stand-out conditions in the contract was that circle were fined every time a mobile phone was discovered within the prison. A curious rule that meant good policing and security within the prison led to a punishing fine. Despite many attempts by me and others to review and modernise some of those conditions, they remained in place. However, looking forward, the transition arrangements are well underway and as I understand it, the circle team will transfer under their current terms and conditions and can look forward to some improvements in those as they progress. Overall, we are hoping to see more posts in the prison in the coming weeks and months too. My plea to the cabinet secretary and to the SPS going forward is to build on the strengths and achievements that the circle team has delivered for us in Kilmarnock, to continue to work closely with our local organisations, to further that close working relationship and to engage with our local businesses who support the prison and who benefit from the support that the prison gives them too. As the contract comes to an end in March and while it might be the end of an old sang for circle in Kilmarnock, I want to put on record my thanks to the entire circle team led by Craig Thompson for the magnificent work done for us over the past 25 years and their representatives to us to be said. It has been a pleasure to work with you all and so I look forward to the beginning of a new chapter for the future of the prison in Kilmarnock. I was going to write a speech but then I found this memo which I wrote following a visit to Kilmarnock last October along with my colleagues Brian Whittle and Sharon Dowie. Let me just read an abridged version of the memo. It begins, memo, SNP transfer of HMP Kilmarnock from private to public ownership. Today we visited circle owned and operated HMP Kilmarnock which will transfer into public ownership at midnight on Saturday, March 16, 2024. Prison director Craig Thompson and his senior colleagues were critical of the SNP's decision to transfer, the lack of explanation for doing so and a worrying lack of communication about how it will happen. Mr Thompson says that it will be more costly to taxpayers while delivering worse outcomes in relation to re-offending to the detriment of everyone. He said that the first anyone who knew of it was in 2019 when then Justice Secretary Humza Yousaf appeared on the evening news to say that it was happening. The SNP's sole motivation appears to be ideological, private is bad, public is good and then I list various bullet points. Circle offered to build a new block at no extra cost to taxpayers and which would now probably be open but this was rejected by Scottish Government after and I quote 15 minutes. The annual cost to Scottish Government of Kilmarnock is £16 million but a report found that it's the least expensive prison in the UK and that the annual cost will rise by up to £5 million and no one appears to know the transfer cost. Mr Thompson estimates that due to the differences between contracts Kilmarnock may need to hire up to 100 more officers. The SPS will not retain the in-house psychology team, education staff or housekeepers who are in payroll. They will instead be subcontracted. The same applies to Kilmarnock's four drug detection dogs, which have stopped £1 million plus worth of drugs from getting inside. There are 84 body-worn cameras across all 17 Scottish prisons. 56 of those are in Kilmarnock but the SPS says that they don't want them so Circle plans to send these to one of their English prisons. Kilmarnock installed in-cell telephones many years ago. That meant that they did not need to emulate Humza Yousaf's disastrous and costly prisoner mobile phone scheme. As a condition of contract, 10 per cent of Kilmarnock's revenue is spent in the local community, which will end. A Circle senior executive flew from Australia to attend a meeting with the Scottish Government. Mr Thompson understands that the then SPS justice secretary did not attend. Kilmarnock staff use an app for rotas, holidays and so on. However, this will revert to paper and pencil under the SNP. The SPS may not recognise community trade union, which represents Kilmarnock staff. The union believes that this could result in an impasse between staff and the SPS. As a member of the union, I wonder what he is saying about it. Presiding Officer, that brings me to the end of my memo, the end of my speech and, frankly, the end of my tether. The SNP's treatment of HMP Kilmarnock is a metaphor for the ideological incompetence of the sorry excuse for a Government. I thank Brian Whittle for bringing this debate to the chamber as members' business. I always seek to offer recognition to workers and staff, so I join Brian and others in doing so. We know that the justice service is under enormous pressure with increasing numbers of prisoners in the estate, many prisons across Scotland, many prisons in Scotland in quite a poor state, and much of our prison estate is extremely old. It is nice today to be able to look at important examples of good practice, which may be helping prisoners and their wider families. I really want to pay tribute to prison officers and staff within the prison service. It is a profession that is often overlooked. It has a complex job role, and its pay does not reflect that. We see prisoners working with others to secure a positive future for the prisoners that they support. During my research for the debate, I found a comment from Wendy Sinclair. I think that her name is the Inspector of Prisons for Scotland. She said, if we bring people into prison and do nothing with them, we will release them back into society angrier than they were when they came in. That is not appropriate. As a person in the community, I would like to think that the prison service is working with those people to reduce the risks when they leave. That statement was made during a budget scrutiny meeting, but the statement did stand out to me as someone who is not an expert in that area. I think that adding to that, we know that many in our prison population are there due to very complex social issues, which has been mentioned by other speakers. Perhaps they may be at risk of re-offending because, on the whole, we do not support them in the way that we should. There is strong evidence that prison used as a vehicle to care, support and rehabilitability helps to return individuals into the community with a purpose for their future, which is obviously helpful for them and their families and communities. In doing a little bit of research, I saw a pathway that talked about seven ways of helping prisoners not to re-offend, to help them with accommodation, to help them with attitudes, thinking and behaviour, to help them with relationships with their children and their families, to deal with things that are important issues in society, currently drugs and alcohol being one. Brian mentioned about education, training and employment, to look at finance, benefits and debt that may be there and help them with that as they transition back into the community and, very importantly, their health. I think that, in my reading of the good work on going at Kilmarnock, the organisations that have been mentioned in the motion and the staff seek to cover all of those areas, the reality overall is that, although we have progressive policy within Scotland, we tend to have a punitive culture to some degree. We have always done that. I think that sometimes it can come across. There is a cultural reluctance sometimes to change and we can always be guilty. All of us can be guilty of that. When we are changing such large organisations, that can be difficult. The prison and justice service have been firefighting for some time. Even Government recognises that. There is a backlog in the courts and there has been overcrowding. Never mind the pandemic. I do not have much time. I want to mention the organisations and the collaborative and rehabilitative approach that has gone on at HMP Kilmarnock. We all wish to support that as we go on the visitor centre, the fact that the police and local groups work to make sure that, when prisoners are returning, they have the opportunity to make it work. Like Brian and others, I hope that the approach not only continues in the years ahead at Kilmarnock, but that it can be seen as a way ahead that we can replicate more widely across the present estate. I thank my colleague Brian Whittle for bringing this debate to the chamber. HMP Kilmarnock is a success story. It is a well-run operation. It supports local jobs. It delivers good value for money for taxpayers. In those respects, it is something of a rarity in Scotland. In the SNP era, it is rare to see high performance and costs that do not spiral out of control. It seems that the sensible decision would be to have continued this successful HMP Kilmarnock contract. The smart move would be to model our other prisons on HMP Kilmarnock, but instead SNP ministers have chosen to end this success story. They have chosen for purely ideological reasons to nationalise HMP Kilmarnock. It is an extraordinary and short-sighted and baffling move. It is a damaging decision that will cost taxpayers money, hinder efforts to rehab prisoners and leave staff in a worse spot. They could have let the prison continue running well as it has been in recent years. Instead, as my colleague Brian Whittle outlined earlier, SNP ministers have created all kinds of problems for themselves by not learning from this success story. Firstly, they have put at risk many effective things that the prison does. HMP Kilmarnock has many bespoke systems and programmes that may not continue, including a digital management tool to book medical appointments and family contact visits. Last year, it introduced a veterans' and custody breakfast club, a very worthwhile and commendable programme. I hope that it continues after nationalisation, but that remains to be seen. Secondly, from speaking with the current director of HMP Kilmarnock, it is clear that staffing is going to be problematic for the nationalised prison. The many experienced staff doing a great job at the moment will need to change the way they work. Staff contracts will be radically different. A lot of new recruitment will be necessary in light of this change. Recruitment may become even more challenging if current staff leave because of worsening working conditions. As my colleague Russell Finlay said, when the nationalised HMP Kilmarnock, the SNP will take body-worn cameras away from prison officers. They may be sent south to English prisons, and that makes no sense whatsoever. It was a positive that HMP Kilmarnock provided those devices to officers, and that should continue. That is an example of cost cutting from the SNP, but, unbelievably, it looks like nationalising HMP Kilmarnock will be far more expensive than the current contract, under which HMP Kilmarnock provides great value for taxpayers. Perhaps, even more shocking, we do not yet know how much more nationalisation will cost than the current approach. No estimates are available, and that work should really have been done before any plans to end this contract were announced. At the Scottish Parliament Justice Committee in November, I asked the Scottish Prison Service if a full assessment of budget rate requirements had been completed. Just a few months before the date of nationalisation, it still had not been. It is unclear if it is completed now. Value for money does not appear to have been a consideration in this decision. There appears to have been no studies done on how much more it will cost taxpayers. According to some estimates, nationalisation may cost £3 million to £5 million more. That is several million pounds that could have been spent on schools, hospitals or other essential public services. But, Presiding Officer, it seems that SNP were never interested in the positives of HMP Kilmarnock. They were not interested that it is good value for money and run effectively. They were not interested in saving money so that it could be spent on schools and hospitals. For purely ideological reasons, SNP ministers will end the success story of HMP Kilmarnock and Scottish taxpayers will suffer as a result. Thank you very much, Presiding Officer. I start by thanking Brian Whittle for securing this debate this evening. This is a very timely debate. I, for one, certainly appreciate the very fulsome account that Mr Whittle and others have given to the excellent work that goes on within the walls in HMP Kilmarnock and perhaps less impressed with his endeavours in football and rugby. In a more serious point, it is imperative that, as members of this Parliament, we engage with the prison service and the individual establishments that are within our regions and constituencies. It is often the case that work within our prisons can be hidden. We need to recognise that what happens in prisons matters. It is not the end of the line because most people will be serving a determinate sentence and will return to our community. I am pleased that Carol Mock, Willie Coffey and Mr Whittle have acknowledged the importance of prisons as rehabilitative institutions and that they have a role to play in improving community safety and changing lives. I had the pleasure last year of visiting HMP Kilmarnock last August. I think that just walking around the prison and spending time with the director Craig Thompson, who is clearly a very experienced governor and the opportunity to speak to staff and prisoners, I felt that I got a really good sense of the significant efforts, skill and enthusiasm that staff at that establishment bring. Now I will just touch on the issue of private prisons. I certainly will give an account of the Government's position in and around the matter, but I can also point to the fact that I have a private prison in my constituency run by a different provider. I and the Government have always had fundamental objections to private prisons, but nonetheless I, for one, have never sought to kick that prison or, indeed, the people who work within it just because of its mode of ownership. It is also the case that, even though we have two private prisons in Scotland, when things are, as Willie Coffey says, a bit rocky or have their ups and downs, because the SPS has responsibilities for the contract, it is also beholden on them to step in or lean in to any institution in Scotland when there are issues. When I visited Kilmarnock, I was very pleased to hear about the positive impact of the sustained early engagement of the Scottish Prison Service and CERCO with staff in preparation for the transition of HMP Kilmarnock to public ownership in March. As it has been noted, it is a significant transition and it is the first transfer to public ownership of a privately operated prison in Scotland. As members may be aware or recall, that decision was taken in 2021. It is no secret that this Government, since its formation in 2007—just in one moment, please—that our position has always been that prisons, like other significant public services, should be managed in the public sector. At a fundamental core level, that is because public safety and not private profit is paramount. The decision around those contracts were legacy arrangements from previous Administrations, and I am happy to take Russell Cynullus. On that specific point, in response to the question, the cabinet secretary told me that the decision to transfer was made in 2021. However, herms of use have made the announcement in 2019. Was that a sham announcement? Listen, Presiding Officer, we are trying to have a serious debate about the quality of care and the quality of supervision that goes on in HMP Kilmarnock. I will get on to in a moment talking about the successes of the organisation that has to be maintained when it takes that significant step of coming back into public ownership. The reality is that, with a 25-year contract that was going to come to an end, there were only two choices. You either retender the contract or you bring it back into public ownership. For the reasons that I have outlined, the Government took the decision to bring the prison into public ownership. On the time that I have left, I want to talk about the successes of HMP Kilmarnock, because it is not just me that has noticed the professionalism and care of the staff at HMP Kilmarnock. Independent prison monitors note in their annual report the extremely positive experiences of visiting the prison. They note a well-run prison that feels safe and orderly, with excellent provision of purposeful activity on a daily basis. That is something to be proud of, of course. I am very grateful to the cabinet secretary for giving way. Does she not recognise that she is giving us the narrative of why it should remain as it is, because of the huge success that it is? I understand that there is this idea that a service like that should not be in private ownership, but surely it is about outcomes. Surely it must be, but it has been run very, very well. Why would she change that? As I have already said, the contract was coming to an end, so you either retender for the contract or you bring the establishment into public ownership. I have outlined the reasons why the Government believes that public ownership of prisons is preferable. What I am acknowledging is that independent inspections and experts have acknowledged that HMP Kilmarnock is on a par with other SPS establishments. It is important that we do, like others, acknowledge some of the successes of HMP Kilmarnock. I was particularly interested in the introduction of a monthly veterans encustody breakfast club. I had an interest when I was first a member of this Parliament many years ago because of my prism background. I was very interested in the prevalence of veterans within our justice system. It is great to see this initiative take place. HMP Kilmarnock also has a very strong community partnerships and excellent intelligence relationships in the work very closely with the local police. As Brian Whittle, Willie Coffey and Carol Mockin have paid tribute to the organisation Recovery Enterprise Scotland, which I am very familiar with, particularly in my previous role as Minister for Drugs Policy, and which has taken on the delivery of the prison visitor centre at HMP Kilmarnock, and that, of course, is supported by Scottish Government funding. The Foundations Hub Visitor Centre is supportive. It is an inclusive environment for people in custody and their families. I just end before you start chastising me for overrunning my time. I want to put in record my thanks to HMP Kilmarnock and to take this opportunity to thank all the current and previous staff in management at HMP Kilmarnock for their important services to the justice system in Scotland. HMP Kilmarnock has been well managed and forward thinking prison in Scotland for 25 years. I can assure the chamber that the Scottish Prison Service will harness and build on that success after transition and to end on the point that Willie Coffey has made. It is important to build on its strengths and achievements and support the prison in this new chapter.