 have Neil Sorensen from land portal informed us that we have 600 parties in our registration, so we'll be waiting for a minute before we begin. Maybe once we touch around 100, it is now 70, I think. Thanks to all of you for taking your time out for this exciting webinar. I think we begin now. We have already 80 parties from joining, so let others come pouring in and we start the webinar formally. I am Pranabranjan Chaudhary from Central Land Governance in India, your host today. With us, with me, there is a great panel I'll introduce you shortly. In the beginning, let me thank everyone for joining us today. We are pleased to have this opportunity to explore with you the potentials of digitization of land records in the context of India and see how it improves land governance and reduce land conflicts around the world. We all know that access to land is a critical factor for economic growth and poverty reduction. For government, industry and citizens to be able to use this asset effectively and to minimize land conflicts. The evidence which indicates that access and reliable land and property records make this easier and particularly as we organized this event amidst the pandemic that is now passing through almost more than a year now, we all have witnessed significant changes around the land ecosystem globally and also in India. In India, the particular things which are important to today's discourse are some development around land records that have come through launching a unique parcel identification number concept by some states, just like Aadhaar in India. And also federal government is trying to build a platform called AgriStack by Ministry of Agriculture, where it will also known as AgriCulture Aadhaar that will be linking all the investment, direct benefit transfers and agri trades to the land records. And also the government of India wants to link the digital land record to something called judicial grid to help judges have easier access to land records. So it all makes very important to know whether digital land records based on which all these things are built upon, whether they are in right shape and whether they provide the right foundation. In that context, the National Council for Applied Economic Research has been trying to assess the progress of land records digitized in India through an index called Land Records and Service Index. In March 2021, NCR released the second National Land Records Service Index, which aims to enable evidence based solutions for securing land, housing and property rights in India. This index aims to understand the extent of the progress, quality of services. So along with the progress, they also look at quality of services and existing gaps so as to identify the measures to improve land records in each state. And I think when we see the presentation, we'll be seeing how some states have also responded to that and improved the land records. It revealed that almost, but overall it revealed that almost all states and union territories in India have made some progress in the efforts to digitize the land records and this progress is also evident as we see the secondary index. During this webinar, we'll have a presentation from NCR about the index and we'll follow up that with discussing about whether the digitization is really impacting dispute reduction, improving women land rights or as well as what the implication on community and customer land tenure are there are shortcomings. We have a great lineup of experts today. We have Dr. Charu Jayan from NCR, Mr. Kumar Sambham from Land Conflict Watch, Mr. Frank Pichel from Cadastra Foundation, Mr. Deepak Shanan, a senior retired bureaucrat from India, who's also an advisor to NCR and Teddy Kisimbo from Orban Lab. So I'll be introducing them individually when they come to present. Let me begin this conversation while trying to invite Dr. Charu Jayan who will be making the presentation. Let me tell you that this presentation will be followed by discussions and we will have two rounds of discussions and we'll be also during the discussion, we'll have some polls. Yeah, I'll be a little slow. I think there's a suggestion from John Carrington to go slow. Please note that there is a question, feature there is a question and answer, a Q&A tab in your bar below the screen in the right side. So please feel free to ask your patients there. So chat if you can use for other purpose. So we'll suggest to use this question and feature to ask the questions and I also suggest the panelists to try to answer the questions when possible and we'll be also taking the questions live once we have two rounds of discussions. Let me also share with you that we have planned a poll during this session. We'll have five questions coming during different stages of this session where we'll be asking you to give your opinion and we would like to see how do you perceive regarding different questions that we are discussing around digitization. Before I give the session to Charu, let me introduce Charu Jain. Charu is an assistant fellow at NCAR. Her areas of research interest include gender and educational studies, socio-economic issues, consumer studies and developmental changes. Her current research focus on looking at planned little policies was in India. Charu, can I request you to start your presentation please? Sure, thank you so much for a kind introduction and so you have to enable the screen sharing option. So I think we'll do that. I think we'll try now. Yes, so hi everyone, I'm Charu Jain and on behalf of NCAR's land policy initiative, I'll talk today on whether digitization of land records is the nacea for land confidence and I'll try to answer this question based on the latest round of NCAR's land record and services index that we have released recently this year in the month of March. But before going forward, I would just like to give a very brief idea on what I will cover in this presentation. So first I'll talk briefly about the system in which land and property records, they are available in India followed by a need for development of any such kind of an index. Then I'll talk about the coverage and objectives of an NCAR index, how we went about it and to what extent this index has been able to improve the state performances followed by the concluding remarks. So as far as the land and property records are concerned, India follows the system of presumptive land title which means that the government, it does not provide any guarantee to the ownership of the titles and therefore the ownership in India is mostly determined on the basis of current who is currently possessing the land and therefore it is subject to a lot of challenges and because no one document is able to is able to prove ownership of land, there are a number of documents available that people generally use to prove their rights on the land and they are the pedestrian records or deep based registration system. And these records, the type of records they vary from rural to urban areas. For example, in case of rural areas, if we see the land administration, it is majorly based on the records that have spatial and textual information whereas in case of urban India, they are mostly available in the form of tax records or conveyance deeds. So given this system, the NLSRI index, it is designed to track all the land records and registration processes in India, particularly in rural India because these records they are available in digital form there. And as I mentioned that the titles they are unclear in India, they follow presumptive land titleing. They are bound to cause litigations and conflicts. And if you see the extent of litigation cases in India, it is as high as 67%. Even the court cases which are being decided in the IPEX court as per Centre for Policy Research, the estimates are about 25% of which 30% of the cases, they are related to the land acquisition issues. So most of these conflicts, they are being generated because of the poor record of rights over the land. And if we have better land records in place, then definitely there will be a better potential for reducing these litigation and conflicts over the land. And yes, digitization of these land records is a first step towards this initiative because it act as a building block for creating a more accurate and comprehensive record. Even in the government, it is quite concerned about modernization and computerization of land records. And they have been running a number of centralised programs since last three decades. But despite that... Can you please speak a little slowly, there is a request from the audience. Sure. So whatever is mentioning is that the government is really concerned. Indian government, they are quite concerned about modernization and digitization of these land records. And therefore they have run various centralised programs since last three decades. But despite these programs, the performances of the states, they are not able to address this issue sufficiently because there is no such credible evaluation criteria in place that can track the performance of these states or can help them in giving particular directions for improvements. And therefore, a need was felt to develop such a kind of an index that can track the performance and then identify gaps to foster competition among states. And this is really important in a country like India where we have land as a state subject. So in this direction, if you see NC areas, land record and services index, this is a really an important tool because it not only helps states to understand where they stand in terms of providing land reports and ease of property transactions, but it also offers solutions to improve their land record databases digitally. So with this, the analysis and index of gauge information onto broad components which are the first one is the extent of digitization of textual records and spatial records and registration process. The other component is to track the improvements in the ease of procuring these land record copies and quality of land record and services that has got by the digitization process. So we have so far covered two rounds of this index. The first was released in 2020 last year and the second this year in the month of March. This is the overall composition of the index. So as you can see, the index has been developed on the basis of 14 indicators which are further classified into four categories of textual records, spatial records, registration and quality of land records. And while textual records, spatial records and registration, each of them are holding 20 points in the score. Together they account for 60% of the weightage in the index and they account for the first component of the index on extent of digitization. The fourth category here which is on quality of land records that is accounting for 40% of the weightage in the index. And so here actually we have considered five elements of the comprehensive record and then we have tried to check that how these records they align with on the ground situation on these five proxy indicators. And because we wanted to enable the comparison between the two rounds, we have kept all of these 14 components same and the scoring pattern same throughout the rounds. So as I mentioned that they are 14 components so to gauge the information on all of those 14 components. We have used a combination of two approaches. One was the web based verification procedure where which was basically which was based on the samples that were drawn from the states and we did the best checking of those. And second approach was consultations from trusted sources. So bulk of the points in the index they are coming on the basis of the sample test that we have conducted on six indicators and it is constituting about 64% of the weightage in the index. The rest of the points have been coming from other eight indicators which were for which the information was taken from the trusted sources. And to draw the sample and we were actually two for this web based verifications we required a nationally representative sample which was drawn using a systematic random approach during the first round. But the biggest challenge during the second round was that to have such a design that can widen the scope of sampling frame while remaining consistent with the sampling of the first round so as to enable us to measure the incremental changes. So we to fulfill this objective and challenge we have taken a combination of a subset of the first round sample plus new samples that have been digitized now in the period of one year. Overall we have done a score we have given scoring on LSRI index for 32 states and UTs because other four states and UTs they have not uploaded their reports on the portal. So this map basically shows how LSRI index is being plotted and how states they are performing. So the dark green states as you can see on the map. So they form the top three states scoring more than 75 points and apart from this there are 12 other states which are scoring which are scoring 50 to 75 points in light green shades. So overall on an average the LSRI index it shows a growth of 16.6% in the second round over the first one and the major thing that we noticed this time is that even the top most performing states of the first round they have again performed really good in the second round as to maintain their positions. This somewhere it reflects that states they are really taking this index seriously and they are putting all their efforts to improve their digitization and to remain in the list of champions. Now component wise we'll try to see how the LSRI index it has posted a competition and has improved the performances of the states. So the first component we are taking here is the digitization of spatial records. So here the scores they have been allotted on the basis of the test checks that we have performed on the sample villages and idea was to understand what is the extent of digitization of pedestrian maps. So this scores have been given for this component for 17 states because only 17 states and utilities have uploaded their pedestrian maps online on the web. The white shaded portions as you can see here they do not provide digital maps on their portals. So this is one of the component that has reflected that has shown maximum growth in the second round over the first one. As you can see 52 percent the index scores are going up by 52.2 percent and I would like to mention that there are the most important factors that are contributing to this growth. One is that they have been additions of the new state in the second round that have now made available their digital their their pedestrian maps spatial reports online on the web which were not there in the first round. Apart from this the second factor is that even the states which were there during the first round in those states we have seen that the extent of ability of digitized records it has increased significantly. So because of these two reasons this component act as one of the key driving forces of the NLSRI index. The other component is on the digitization of the registration process. So this component we have we have scored on the basis of the digital ability of digitized five different stages of registration process. So five stages when I'm talking it's about we first check whether there is digital whether there's any online portal available where citizens can go and they can fill in their proposed registration detail they can carry out the proposed registration. Other is online availability of the circle rates which is the minimum property prices and online facilities for payment of the stamp duties or registration fees and whether online attestation facilities are available for the registered document and immediate delivery of those documents. So we tested each of these five stages for registration and then we aggregated the scores for the registration. Overall this was scored for 30 states and we found that 25 of them have shown an improvement. This index is showing a growth of 17 percent and their number of factors which are contributing and I have listed also on the slide the major achievements. So mainly they are coming from the adoption of online portals or adoption of new softwares and then also making the circle rates available online. On textual records we haven't seen much of the improvement in the second round because of the high base value of the first round. As you can see the map is more or less it is greener in color and dark green which shows that most of the states they have already digitized most of their textual records and this component is showing the maximum extent of digitization in rural India. So we tested 27 states for these this component who have uploaded their textual records on that side and we found that 22 of them have actually retained and have improved their position this time in the second round over the first one and even those states which are showing a decline it is hardly very marginal. So overall the efforts it was all about the NSRI index so what we found is that efforts for efforts of these states and UTs in digitizing their land records they are useful and people only if the records and associated services they are easily accessible by these citizens and therefore to track this to track the accessibility and navigability features we have prepared a separate index on accessibility in the second round using four components which are on ease of access comprehensive information web design navigation and health assistance and each of these four components hold people weights in the index accessibility index which is a separate one and what we found is that there are certain states although there is a high correlation between analysis and accessibility but there were certain states which were performing really good on the digitization front but the scores on accessibility was low so this clearly give indications that made digitization of records it doesn't ensure that records are easily accessible to citizens also and states they need to give attention to this component for providing better services to the citizens. So overall what we saw is that during the first round we found that given a very high base of textual records there are only two areas where the scope for improvement was quite high and that was about the digitization of spatial records and digitization of the registration process and what we found in the second round is that most of the states they have actually made strides in these two areas and even the second component on the quality of land record and services which we consider relatively difficult area for improvement in even in that component we have recorded about 10 person growth in the second round so this clearly gives indications that and in a side it appears to have an impact you know in pushing the states to perform better on digitization front one area that yes their states they need to give an attention is about making records more accessible and making their websites better navigable so that is one component we would we have suggested and apart from that although now we we have get a lot of we have get the improvements the pattern of improvements in the quality and services of these land record but it is not it is not sufficient enough to understand how it is actually impacting citizens and reducing these conflicts and litigations for that we have now proposed to integrate the main analysis I injects with the accessibility features itself and also with the citizen based survey because the client survey it will act as a reality check on the value of digitization efforts for the public in in actual and the entire coverage of the both the reports all the findings they are for this study they are available on NCIR land poetry for further reference we are really thankful for Omidia Network India for supporting this research work thank you so much back to you Dr. Charo I think it was a very succinct and presentation and a very short time I understand your limitation because there are so many things to be told so you are a little fast and particularly people from different no they are there from the different parts of the globe somebody we are not able to follow the our English that could be some issues but friends this presentation as well as the whole report is available in the web and you can always you know and if you have any questions you can always come back to Charu and others so as you see you know this is a very important index which is trying to put together India's progress around land record not only as a country but as no states individual states in in India land is a state subject so states govern land differently they also have their records differently presented so though they have all online but they are in different languages so there are there are no issues around the way they are you know put in the website so even this NCIR index try to look at how you access these websites how much time do they take to access it so there are a lot of information available in that website in that NLSI index we'll share that link with all of you very soon we'll now go to our question answer session the first round of questions we start and I'll begin with Charu moving to Mr. Deepak Sanan Deepak Sanan you know can be you know addressed as the father of the national this NCIR land record service index because he's the person who conceptualized and steered it through and he is a former civil servant he lives in the Himalayas where he worked earlier his current affiliations include now advising national council applied economic research Indian Institute of Human Settlements as well as central policy research so he comes with more than 30 years of experience in land the land administration and also has a total work in other development sector and we just didn't work there so I'll now pose a very general question to Mr. Sanan so what do you think that know in the contest of land records because we talk about presumptive titling, constructive titling and different issues around India so in your opinion what are the major debates and drivers in India around reforming property titling system. Thank you Pranab for your very kind words let me say that I see the debates around land issues in India mostly driven by market by market players and the whole idea of expanding the market economy so what we see is a lot of discussion about the difficulties for investment posed by transaction costs due to poor titling and poor records and this is what is really driving discussions so the two major debates which I see happening one is a legal issue a legal debate around titling between the proponents of conclusive titling wanting to change the existing presumptive titling system and those who would like to see this not be such an important issue the other is a more a debate but from the technology side where there are many adherents of modern day surveying techniques who see scope for a very rapid resurvey to create a more accurate record which will in their view reduce disputes because the existing record is just simply very inaccurate now the proponents of conclusive titling see legislation as an answer to the litigation which is brought about by presumptive titling on the other hand the technology buffs say that modern techniques can help create a accurate record and reduce disputes in a very quick way and therefore we should just go all out and do this so what is holding it back is the other side of a more cautious perspective which says that you know bringing about conclusive titling is not a simple case of just passing a law it is it needs a lot of preparation it needs a better record for a start disputes to be resolved first and that can take a lot of time even a developed country like the UK has still not got conclusive titling across all of Great Britain after 150 years so this is not going to be a panacea which is going to happen overnight at the same time the whole idea of resurvey is ignores the fact that there is a legacy record which with all its inaccuracies is what is accepted today so if you do a more accurate survey and bring up a lot of variations with the legacy record then our experience in India is that it can actually increase the number of disputes rather than lessen them so therefore the midway point says hasten slowly seek a more accurate and comprehensive record build on it by brick by brick don't try to do wholesale change overnight so survey unsurveyed areas create templates which record all kinds of rights which have never been recorded which are left which are which which are community which are in different forms which the whole idea of private land ownership sometimes doesn't even recognize and finally recording conferences there are restrictions on holding land there are reasons why there are ways in which communities and people are looking at land and even there are legal incumbrances record them first that will reduce future disputes so I would say this is where the debates are and this is the kind of points of view which are prevailing at the moment thank you thank you thank you sir I think that audience would have understood the complexities around India's land debate and with the long history and long legacy and complexities of the states so those complexities remain and while digitizing how far you are those complexities decide the quality of the record I think that makes me to take to you know next question to Mr. Frank Pichail Frank as you many of you would be knowing is the co-founder and chief program official at the Kadesta Foundation based out of Washington DC Frank is a land admin specialist with experience in designing managing and implementing land retrojects with a technology focus around the globe there's a long experience of also working earlier with USAID and other you know technology based platforms uh Frank the question to use that you know there has been a discussion a lot of discussion around digital divide where you talk about land you know digital land record and accessibility records so how much do you see you know how much do we avoid reinforcing reinforcing the digital divide amongst the most vulnerable where you go for you know land record digitization sure sure thank you for that question Pranav and a great great point raised and and Deepak you've already addressed some of those potential risks in terms of conflict drivers and really the importance of making sure we're capturing all of the data whether it's encumbrances other right holders etc and all of those are completely accurate and valid you know for me one of the challenges or or risks I see when we when we talk about digitization is first of all what do we mean by it and oftentimes I think it's looked at in fragments you know we talk about digitizing the historical record or digitizing the process of data collection and it needs to be both of those but also that process of data integration and cleaning the data making sure that the data aligns with other other government agencies other government sectors and doesn't conflict with itself which it often does but what what really can can worry me sometimes is the the fact that terms like digitization and others are often used almost as a as a political band-aid or as a short-term solution and you know 10 15 years ago it was let's we need a registry and cadastral system then it was an integrated registry and cadastral system then it was well we need it to be on blockchain or we need the imagery first to capture the data and clarify it and I think it's important to remember that that these are all just tools the digitization certainly makes the analysis of the data easier it makes it easier to compare to the other data sets but it really comes down to good governance and all of the digitization in the world won't impact that governance if there's no faith by the citizens in the capacity of the governments to deliver faith in the government that they will adhere to their processes etc and you know I think we can look at some of the indexes like prindex that highlighted some of those disparities where sometimes titles and formal documents don't leave the confidence and how do we handle that so whenever I think about digitization my next thought is what are we going to do with the data what's the next step going to be and I think that's so critical to think about because if we're not doing all of this in parallel digitizing the data building government capacity building the modalities for citizens to interact with the data building that that longer term data infrastructure to keep the data up to date as we move forward to make sure transactions are registered is all so critical and the last thing I'll mention that that I think ties more directly to your question is as we look at that this this process of digitization and by that I mean the entire thing capturing the data digitizing historical data connecting those two integrating with the other government agencies is we can't ignore those historical injustices that have occurred and that we know have occurred because people haven't entered the systems because of that resistance to our inability to legally document community rights customary rights rights of forest actors etc so when we think about that historical data we need to make sure that we're not looking at it without recognizing the reality of what what d-pack mentioned what has happening on the ground who is actually using the land so I'd stress that we you know we need to consider those things of adverse possession look at long-term land use particularly when we're digitizing records that might go back decades those might not reflect the reality on the ground and and aligning the reality on the ground with that historical record is critical so I might have rambled a little bit there Pranav but I hope I hit your point and happy to address the question further thanks Frank I think you you answered it quite well but we'll also like to have our participants opinion on that here we go with our first poll so can I request Neil to you know bring down the poll on a digital divide so here is a question do you think the digital divide is factored in while digitizing land records so you have three choices and I request you to you know give your choice in 30 seconds thanks Neil yeah a majority of say that digital divide is not taken into account yeah I think thanks thanks for the poll we'll we'll go to the next question to Kumar as you see is a young journalist and he is but he is a founding partner and project director of land conflict watch I think and land conflict watch is known for you know documenting land conflict in India and I think a globally acknowledged platform he's also a member of the reporters collective a multi-lingual investigating journalism collaborative as a journalist Kumar has reported India's prime news outlets including business standards crawl that in hindu sometimes down to earth tags of India or issues ranging ranging around governance business and social justice at land conflict watch he is leading a massive and ambitious project of mapping and analyzing ongoing large-scale land conflicts in India and Kumar to you the question you know as everybody would guess is can digitize some help in addressing large-scale land conflicts in India Kumar you have to unmute yeah thank you thanks Kumar thanks Pranav and good afternoon everyone I'll answer your question in two parts Pranav first I think it's important to understand where and why the large-scale land conflicts are happening in India and at land conflict watch we have sort of created countries first and only database of over 800 ongoing land conflicts from across the country where people have come together in large numbers to contest the ownership control access or use of land and its resources the impact of these conflicts is huge both in terms of its impact on people as well as businesses together these conflicts affect over 8.6 million people and investment worth rupees 26.7 trillion so it's a serious issue the land conflicts in India now we categorize the conflicts based on the land tenure types on which on the land that on which these conflicts are occurring so the largest 38% of the conflicts are actually occurring on just the commons common lands including the forested common lands which are traditionally used by travels and other forest dwellers there are 33% of the conflicts which involve both the commons as well as the private properties while 29% conflicts are only on private lands so overall more than 70% conflicts are actually involving commons we also coded in each of these cases what are the main contentions of the people and we found that most common four contentions are number one their customary rights over use and access of commons were not recognized or compensated for followed by the people felt that the promised compensation for private land was not given to them and third was people felt that promised compensation was not adequate and fourth was people's consent was not taken before acquiring land so in the context of these findings I would say that the land record systems in India traditionally have been geared towards private property ownership rights as rightly pointed out by Mr Sanan a bundle of customary rights like management and use of land including that of commons and forested commons their non-nurship rights like user-fooked rights or dependability for the livelihoods these have not been either recorded or have been completely ignored now for example take the case of the forest right act it was enacted to give titles over the traditional use or customary uses of forest dwellers on forest lands its implementation remains abysmal across the country and many states have not even reconciled their land record system to record the FRA titles in land records on non-forested commons which are mostly governed by panchayats or other forest other government departments there is not even a framework to record customary rights or compensate for them if those lands are taken for some other use so our data shows that while on the private properties people still have some lever to negotiate and during the conflicts for compensation etc and most of these disputes arise over the compensation more people are protesting because their customary land rights which are directly linked to their livelihood are not recognized or compensated now as we Mr Sanan said digitization does not solve this fundamental problem of exclusion of customary non-ownership rights by our legal system or the administrative systems nor is it geared towards it so digitization does not I mean digitization does bring transparency in the existing system of records management and does pave the way for improving the private ownership records which would to an extent might help in resolving private ownership related disputes but I'm not sure unless these fundamental reforms and administrative exercise for to address the exclusion of rights are done large-scale land conflicts can be resolved without that over to you Kanap Thanks Kumar I think this is very important and important know that how conflicts occur on different types of land so we also go with a poll right now with with link the kumbar's question regarding the land conflicts so what over to the audience do you think that digitization of land record reduce land disputes and conflicts 30 seconds for you yeah I think many people think still no it reduces conflict 34% is yes and 42% is no so I think it's close thanks thanks Neil for sharing this result from the conflicts will move to issues around gender and let me move to let me invite Teddy Kisumbo for this taking this question Teddy is a urban researcher in the urban action lab geography urban action lab in the department of geography at maker university Uganda she has been an urban planning see he has an urban planning background with a masters in land use and regional development her research interest relates to attempts to produce accounts of urban development processes from the perspective of poor and marginalized groups of men and women in Kampala and other African cities she's also a fellow with the land act professional learning network Teddy the question to you is that in your opinion what are the implications of digitization of for women land rights as well as possible implications on the community and customer in land rights in Uganda and Africa in general thank you very much okay thank you very much for for this opportunity and to answer that question so my my immediate answer would be um digitalization is not a shortcut to addressing critical land tenure systems and in most cases if I can give an example from my country Uganda is that the system is just adopting an old structure that has been in place and that old structure we have seen from mostly customary and uh and community land that the women have been discriminated when it comes to access of land they don't have they only have access to land but they do not have the rights to the land so digit so digitization in my opinion if I can borrow the statement that I saw once on Twitter is that digitizing digitizing a broken system will only get you a digitized broken system so a question to ask is when it comes to all these digitizing process land administrative processes is are all the rights and different forms are taken into consideration and from the from the previous panelists the answer has been no and in Uganda no the digitalizing process leans more towards privatization and individual ownership so which excludes the rights and of what of of many uh individuals that have rights through customary or collective land rights and again the implication that has on that is that women again will continuously as it was from the ages before until now they will still be discriminated in that regard because not all all all tenure rights or tenure uh access to land are put in place and then that there's also need to understand when it comes to digitalization is the question of who is doing the mapping and who decides what to be mapped so if the communities themselves and women are not engaged in this process of digitalizing of digitizing their digitizing property and you're not put them in the process to at least in their opinion what they would regard as land rights or access to rights so in that process you're entirely excluding them excluding even the marginal uh communities like pastoralists on access to land so that question also moving forward I think in my opinion is to understand who is doing the the mapping and who decides what to be mapped in most cases it's the stats that decides what should be mapped and peoples of opinion or communities opinion is is is is left out and when it comes to gender equality in the process is also I think again uh gender issues should not should not be seen as sub projects when it comes to the processes of land administration projects they should be instead they should be mainstream throughout the throughout the the entire process of the of digitizing or or scaling up the land administration projects at the same time one cannot expect a digitalization or land administrative projects alone to change the social policy or laws when it comes to land administration and rights most of women and customary rights uh in as I conclude uh I believe uh in strategies that foster gender training education and communication of the projects from the from the designers and implementers of these tools as Frank said they are just tools that can be used if I can borrow against someone's word garbage in garbage out so the tools are are are run by human beings so and if human uh if people's perspectives on what uh tenure security is to them is not put into consideration or what is fed into these tools does not account for all other forms of of tenure security I believe will still go on and have these discussions of women land rights not being recognized not being recognized at all yeah I'll stop from there for now thanks teddy I think very powerful statement that the broken system enter into also the digital systems and continue to be make it digital broken so I think you know and gender gap is very there may not be addressed by decision alone so that no uh takes us to ask our next person in the poll can I request Neil to post the poll on gender gap so here the question has digitization of land record reduce the gender gap but do you think this is quite clear so teddy made a very compelling argument and you see 74 percent of people are believing that you know it will not be the case thank you thank you teddy thank you uh now I'll uh come back to Mr. Deepak Sanan with you know another question uh and this will be second round and then I think we're already seeing a lot of interesting questions coming up in the question and answer and chat books and we'll try to address that we're trying to address some questions directly also so please keep populating this question and answers you know uh uh bugs and I think we're getting really exciting interactions so the question to you is that in your opinion what are the shortcomings in the titling system and land records in India that have been a cause of concern and do you think digitization can improve the situation and speed up creation of a better property records I think in a indirect way many of the questions that have been addressed in the question and answer also relate to this question thank you madam I can see this whole issue has already invited a lot of comment from my fellow panelists for teddy kumar prank or everyone's alluded to this and I can only reiterate and add to what they've said and you know what I mentioned earlier that the shortcomings of the record today whether it is about the fact that not all rights are recorded that incumbrances are not recorded that it's an inaccurate record that a lot of areas are answered way all this needs addressing is digitization and answer digitization is at best a starting point it is as many of my fellow panelists said if if I just think digitization is the final answer then it's a question of garbage in and garbage out whatever I have as a legacy record is all I get as a digitized record if that's all I look for digitization as such can reduce the redundancy which keeping a manually a paper record involves in terms of updating it it can and ensure that I compute numbers better than and I'm able to make a more accurate assessment of total land in a village or in a particular name because software will enable me to do these totaling very much better than in a manual system but most important digitization enables integration of databases so when I'm updating a record if I have an integration with a registration software which is recording say transactions of sale then they can automatically be reflected in a record and therefore update it automatically or land use can be updated automatically as changes occur or incumbrances can be recorded because or other databases are recording incumbrances and those can be brought into the property record but all this will be possible only if I really believe that I need a more accurate and comprehensive record and without that digitization itself is only a starting point as I said thank you thanks thanks very very important insight digitization is not the magic bullet so we need to address many other things now before trying to digitize and trying to get answer everything so this leads to our fourth question on the poll so Neil can I request you to put the question please so the question is that has digitization of land records improved creation of better property Neil can you put this yeah thank you and let's see the results yes I think the divide is somewhat equally soft that but here it is going towards positive that digital land record can make the records better thanks we move to the next question and here is the turn up kumar comes kumar I think we try to briefly touch upon that in the beginning so there is a recent government initiative like minister of agriculture is trying to bring in something called agree stock or agree other and on which all the public and private services will be built upon on top of digital land records and all farmers access to these services will be built upon built upon that what is your take on that and what do you see could be the impact on this on the common citizen and farmers yeah as a journalist I see these developments in the context of the political economy of digitization of land records if I could say that and I'll explain how so have you already discussed I think in the past questions that no matter how desirable it is the long-stated purpose of digitization of land records that is basically to lead to conclusive and transparent land titling is going to take several years to achieve a given in the shape that our land records right now are and rightly the index land and services index that Dr. Jean presented shows that only few states right now are recording the encumbrances attached to land titles and cleaning them off is another huge administrative task which will require a lot of effort and political will and we don't even know how successful it would be it might face resistance from powerful lobbies because it is also meant to put a check on binami transactions etc more transparency means less corruption more no binami transaction etc now but with digitization of the existing records which is happening for a while and it's achieving the pace is increasing in many of the states no matter how faulty the records are we already have an aggregated digital data of all land parcels at one place that's a big opportunity for private players in the data economy and that's where the aggregate stack comes in as you said the government plans to link all of India's farmers land records to real time crop production soil health insurance and credit and give access to private players to this data to develop products and services for farmers now if done with the right intentions and through proper right processes this could bring benefit to all to be fair better services to farmers and profits to private players on the infrastructure provided by the government but if you see how things are right now and moving and you see all of it together there are concerns and these are the two concerns that I would like to point out which mostly others are also pointing out in this case one that the government is already rushing to launch the aggregate stack it has already launched pilots and signed MOUs with many private players including Microsoft and Patanjali in India to harvest farmers data based on the existing land records but as they say and you know other panelists have pointed out earlier that anything built on data is as good as the quality of data itself now if the data is quality right now we don't know how what would be the quality of services and products built on this existing quality data it might actually perpetuate the exclusion of customer rights as we discussed in those services and products as well that's one and second India still does not have a personal data regulation law to prevent misuse of such kind of data now with all farmers land and crop data aggregated and available to private players at one place without careful regulations that ensure equity and fairness of the use of data there are risks for example there are risks of market manipulation of crop prices by traders if aggregated data is available for them whose farmer is like all the farmers in the country how which crop is being grown how much they already know in advance there is a risk of market manipulation etc then there is also risk of say credit and insurance systems built on excessive surveillance of farmers and so much data is available so unless there are we put first the regulations which are equitable and fair in place the use of this data and I mean the risk of misuse stands and I think that's something that needs to be addressed before these initiatives are rushed into. Thanks Kumar I think this is a big debate going on around that and the Meta for India had invited also public opinions and feedback on this and a lot of people are discussing about that what is going to happen to landless farmers or the tenant farmers I think it's good that you three open your ideas and that is really helpful. I think it raises a larger bigger questions which I take and I'm taking to Frank, Frank Pichail. Frank what is like one of the many risks can highlight but in your opinion what are the potential risks that can come when we completely move to a digital environment when land records move to a complete digital environment? Sure so there's a couple of things that that jump to mind one is you know when we jump into a fully digital environment the overreliance on the digital and the lack of ground truthing or the potential to think you can get away without ground truthing you know I've seen cases of you know digitizing historical plots and they weren't done in the right datum and quickly realized that many of the plots are in the wrong district and a lake on a mountainside but the reaction from the government has been well this is this is what the record say so we need to remember you know our our skills and not rely on that data and particularly when we start thinking about applying artificial intelligence and machine learning to identify and plot boundaries which is certainly something that has been tested and I think a lot of people are thinking about as a way to speed things up even further but the other two in addition to that overreliance on the data or on the digital process is the access to the data how are we ensuring ongoing equitable access and with that is often required broader public education and mixed media but also thinking about not a fully and fully digital world how are we leaving paper maps behind how are we posting initial data collections to ensure they can be interpreted by all so so ensuring there's a little bit of that that soft or hard copies delivered as well and finally and it's been alluded to by some of the other speakers but avoiding entrenching those those power structures that might be imbalanced and knowing that there are marginalized groups that are legally often left out and we're often not in capturing capturing all of those rights encumbrances restrictions etc so when we think about community land use how are we ensuring all members of the community are having their their rights documented similarly when we're thinking about pastoral rights and temporal time temporal rights are we capturing that information and too often the answer is no so thinking about how we can better align the the legal with the de facto on the ground and ensure the the data is shared are two of the most critical aspects from my perspective. Thanks. The legal customer regimes, local tenures, all de facto disarray need to be properly counted for and as you move there we have to see the how digital divide is also addressed. Our last questions in our question and answer round before we go to the audience we move to Tedi. Tedi this is a question about your background now related to your background so what do you think that the peri urban areas all around Delhi and Kampala that were never properly documented and how do you document or formalize this and particularly when the land value increases do you think people will be more familiar with the legal and digital processes and those who are more familiar they will displace and displace the people who have been living under land for a long time. This is a bulky question too unpacked but I'll try my best so when it comes to communities outside the city probably the question is we have to ask is how known is digitalization into the communities which social groups or which people are aware of this process ongoing to give an example in my country the process of digitizing land records began around 2012-2011 but as we move outside the city a few people know about this entire process so how do we get people to know that to and jump on this I think the first key thing is that to make to make information available to people that and the importance of jumping with this entire issue of digitalization but also the question is who has access to this information and the infrastructure to digitalization is key to understanding that in practice it's the powerful people resourceful actors take advantage of the entire system and that with the people who have the technological knowledge and finances because also getting your property digitized it's an entire process that if you your financial muscle if I'm to use that word is weak you can't go through the entire process so and with that it's only better known that the infrastructure people who have the access to better infrastructure are the powerful which leads the rural people outside left out or discriminated when it comes to who and how if they can increase their land values if they have their properties digitized and registered and they have a title and they have or a certificate of occupancy and then the other issue is land related digitalization should be integrated with it to show if it shows that how it will improve productivity and access to rights to to communities I'm sure people are able and willing I'll give an example of one of the the social tenure domain model that has been tested by UN habitants with partners in in Bali which is an eastern part of the of the country and people the pilot study it showed that people embraced the the the tool on mapping their their properties incorporating the the the features that within them if there are any conflicts on the land and the process was welcomed people want to know what the use of the tool was and they got that information and it it's in fact they're asking for the pilot to be rolled out I think information is key and also sensitizing uh land clients to land registries into the process the procedures in the digital environment is key uh the processes to use during during to use the digital how to use the process itself is key because it's a tool and also putting in mind that that land itself is highly a political issue that is closely related to power imbalances and often reflects the structure the structural discrimination among marginalized communities so how do we communicate how do we make people value their land or make it more valuable is key to uh thanks ready definitely very tough questions to attend to and I think you answered it quite well this leads to our last poll questions here uh can I request Nail Swarinson to put that question here the last poll question is that so digitization follow updating correction of legacy record and a more new diligent tenured documentation I think to some extent Soma has indicated that also in the chat box so you have 30 seconds to respond to that your participants yes I think this is why it's interesting everybody talks about that digitization if you go ahead without doing all these things it is going to be like Derbys and Derbys out thanks thanks for the I think excellent poll participation so you know in a way it is indirect way to share your thoughts and you know add to this debate before we open up the questions I think let me go back to Charu Charu you have listened to all the participants you know presentation uh deliberation uh following your presentations so after hearing all these discussions and deliberations do you have any reflections yeah so this was very enriching and insightful panel discussion and after such an enriching discussion there is nothing much to add but just I would like to mention that we all know that land market imperfections it has been often highlighted as one of the major constraints affecting the investments and growth in India and we always you know here I mean the difficulty in transacting in land is one of the major concerns we have been pointing out since a long time so digitization of land records is definitely one answer to this it's the first step in this direction but apart from this I think there are other major challenges that that we have to address once a challenge could be could be related to the education I mean related to educating and creating awareness among the common people particularly in the rural areas because even if we have these digitized land records available with us if people they they don't know how to you know access those reports how to if there are any discrepancies where they have to go how to how they can put up the discrepancies on the digital portal so that knowledge has to be created among the common citizens once we are doing the digitization of these records and I think for this first step could be to understand the perceptions of the people that what is their current level of understanding of these land records of digital processes and digital platforms actually so I think in this regards the the later study of NCR that we are doing the collaborative study on the demand side and index study that will also be very helpful because it will produce a very rich database on the current understanding of the general citizens of India about the land records and digital platforms and this information then can be used for designing certain programs for creating this kind of awareness among people to handle the digital portals. Second point I would like to mention is that the legislations that we have for land because this is one of the very important subjects so it is very important that whatever legislation the laws procedures are there it should be laid in a very simplified language for citizens because everybody in rural areas even if they are literate they won't be able to understand the language of laws articles and the clauses. So if these legislations are simplified it will be helpful for them to understand their their land rights and about their ownership status. So for creating awareness among people and making these legislations simple I think various programs they can be developed taking the help of NGOs and policy think tanks who are working in this area. The last point I would just like to mention is that because as I mentioned there are a number of documents which people actually that people use to prove their ownership on land and all of these documents are available from different departments registration departments revenue departments and generally there is a very lack of coordination between these departments. So I would suggest that if there is a proper integration of databases between these departments that will be really helpful in reducing the conflicts with digitization this can be achieved to some extent but yes otherwise also there should be a proper linkages. So these are the three points I would just like to add on here. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for this insight. So now we'll take the questions from the participants. So let me go to the first question that was raised by Lakshmi Krishnan. So this question was actually I appreciate the presentation by Charu Jayan and these questions either can be taken by Charu or Mr. Deepak Shanan. The question is the extent of land reform after independent independence varies from one state to another in India but the Adivasis Forestry Act has been respected only in form and not in substance. When digitization build on such an unequal data unequal base what are the specific steps that NCR has recommended as necessary or mandatory to be taken by the union or state governments to avoid exacerbating this baseline iniquity prior to digitization. So and particularly Lakshmi's interest has been that looking at in the equity and inverter and social justice. Difficult question Pranab. I think while I think it's very important that we must always have values and ethical issues and moral issues in the forefront of our work and what we want we must recognize that we need to judge an action from the perspective of is this going to make things worse for our ultimate objectives or is it going to make it better or is it going to be new. To my mind the question in your earlier poll when people answered and said is digitization likely to create a better record or a worse record. I think they answered it by saying it's more people said it's likely to create a better record. In a sense what they are saying is digitization cannot make things worse. Digitization may be neutral maybe better but it certainly is not likely to make things worse than what they are. If the existing situation is unequal it is non-inclusive it is against gender then digitization of an existing record will make the same thing show up in a digitized record. So we need to keep waging the same battles which we are waging without digitization with digitization. The same battles will continue to be needed and must be waged. We cannot say I don't want digitization and because it's going to you know it's anti certain objectives which I have so I don't want it at all. I can't say that because it's going to for two reasons. One it's going to happen anyway and two it doesn't necessarily make things worse. So continue to fight for what we believe in for more equal rights for more gender participation and right ownership for communities to have their rights and tenures recorded for differential ways of having use of rights and tenures being reflected in a record all that we must fight for but not at the cost of saying no digitization that's my beliefs. Thanks sir. I think people will have different opinions but I think very well merited with very complex arguments. I'll take to the second questions and these questions I think can be taken by Charu. The question is could you throw this is from Benita Menjes. The question is could you throw some light on why digitization of land record is being undertaken in India? I think it's a very important question and how are the state governments involved in the process? Yeah so as I've already mentioned a few minutes back that there are a lot of I mean there are land market imperfections which are there in India and these imperfections actually it is affecting the investments and both prospects of all the industrial and business sector. So then there are difficulties in ease of accessing and ease of you know transacting these property transactions also. So the records they are quite unclear. They are available in a very poor format and because and then they you know they reflect a lot of inaccuracies in terms of their land use patterns or in terms of the area coverage so which has been recorded over there even the number of owners. So there are a lot of inaccuracies which are there because these records they were recorded years back and they have not been updated since then. So if there is a digitization process in place so there will be really it will also it will promote the integration of these records the different departments also and yes accuracy of these land records can be maintained. There will be clarity on the owners and number of owners and other different parameters which are mentioned in the records. To some extent we are expecting that digital land records they will help in reducing the conflicts and litigation cases associated with it. There is second place. Yeah and as far as states are concerned because this is land in the state subject in India. So this is the responsibility of the states to take up the digitization of their land records process and as we have noticed in our index also that states they are taking a lot of initiative and in fact I would like to mention that during this short span of second round which we have conducted all the improvements that we have mentioned the states that they have done it is done without spending any single penny on these initiatives. So this is a state subject and it's their responsibility to make their records in a better format. Thanks. Thank you. The next question I think it is a kind of old question. Many people raised it and I would suggest Kumar to make an attempt at this question. So there are questions about community ownership in India and how is this managed? So what do you think will digitize some help in forest rights and these communities? Thanks Pranab. I think there are already procedures rules and procedures drafted under the Forest Rights Act for Community Management and the titles also there is a process of providing titles and recording coding the process through which Community Management could happen under the Forest Rights Act. The problem is in most cases this provision is hardly implemented and wherever it's implemented it's not included in the land records itself forget digitization. Once it's included in the land record systems then probably it would be digitized so that's not happening in many states. There was a related question which was generally saying what are the reasons for FRAs poor implementation etc. So if you permit Pranab I could club that as well. So briefly I mean two broad reasons one forests are really resource rich lands. I mean there are huge interests over forest lands in India. You have minerals, you have timber, you have forest resources. So when there are there are these huge interests in forest land obviously there would be resistance from large lobbyist interest groups on setting control over these lands to people on the ground because once that comes in then it's difficult to extract these resources. That's largely the question of the political economy. Second our forest administration is governed by the by a law that is from the British times from 1927 of the Indian Forest Act and which basically gives ownership and control over forest land to the to the administration and forest departments. Now management is fine by them but there is the associated sense of ownership and control also comes with this law that the powers that this law gives to the forest bureaucracy. So giving titles on forest under the forest land requires setting control by the forest department to over these lands and there is a clear resistance within the bureaucracy for that. So those are largely the two reasons which which sort of hinders the implementation of the forest right and which reflects in the administrative processes on the ground. Thanks Kumar. Just to add to this question so there are also community ownership in India in northeast India. So in northeast hill communities so it is governed under different constitutional sections and there we find just like Africa we have but village authorities, village hefterns, clan land, communal land and they there this you know India's land reform laws and land laws are not applicable. So there the communities manage these laws even for the forest to be managed there or to be acted there the forest department has to go and take permission from the village chief to have plantation forest management. Regarding digitization already forest right forest right act allows some kind of digitization use of you know mobile technology, use of GPS, use of you know satellite imageries to give forest right act. Recently Supreme Court has also asked to check you know the rights being given or rights being denied through this technology. So that way forest right act is also using digital technology but there has to be any integration of forest right act with digital India's land decommodation program to a great extent so far. There is the next question from Gauri Kachok and this question I think let me request Fran to take it. Fran this question is what kind of governance measures should be taken to bridge the gap between technology led reforms and last mile communities. You have to unmute. Thanks great great question I'm not sure I have an answer to that and I also realize you know I might have sounded perhaps a little bit negative in highlighting the risks we see but I think we also recognize that the the role of digital tools and digital technology plays to drastically democratize the process and make it more more accurate accessible affordable and open it up more to the community. So there is with all of the potential risks there's unlimited potential potential that's probably only going to be possibly realized through technology. Now how to bring the engage the community more is something we're constantly trying to do whether it's sharing information whether it's looking at how we can tie some of this data to advocacy in the case of governments not recognizing de facto land use and land rights but it really has to be taken on almost a case by case basis. Thanks Fran I have a lot of more questions I have only five minutes so I think these questions we can share with the you know the panelists and panelists can also respond to that but it is very interesting so before we close I think there's a very excited conversation and we talked about many issues but I think since the discussion is going to end before that I request each of the panelists if they can reflect one minute on these conversations and give their concluding statement. So I'll start with Mr Deepak Shanan please. So it's been a very very enriching debate and I can only say that for us the the important point is that we accept digitization as a process which has as I said it's a building block for better outcomes. It is left to itself completely neutral if not in some cases some people will feel it's worse but I personally feel it cannot be any worse than a very bad situation and if it is as as Frank very rightly said at least it's democratizing the process it's showing it more easily to everybody it's it is resulting in somewhat more accurate situations it is reducing redundancy in operation it is permitting a certain integration of databases it has the potential of making things better it is so much better easier to integrate and bring about positive outcomes on gender on inclusion on conflict when we have transparent information easily analyzable and open for inspection which digitization presents to us so let's go for it and let's keep building on it as Charu says let's get more awareness around it let's get and we are particularly enthusiastic by seeing that the states are picking up this issue when we do an LRSI they are keen on seeing this you know showing improvements much more improvements than over the years they were doing in one year of doing two rounds of NLRSI we've seen so much more improvement than over the years so I'm excited by I think adding to it a client survey which makes people even more responsive to citizens I think is a way forward and it's something which we hope we can keep doing thank you thanks over to you Teddy for the last one minute okay thank you very much the part has emptied everything that I wanted to say but just add a little and to say that digitalization is key within if you're to look around the records it has helped in some way even decentralize the systems to the people to some extent so if given more effort more support and also these issues that we are rising incorporated in it it has the potential to make the land system and land records and administration better better than previous times have had so the issue is how do we integrate all these aspects of addressing different levels of target audience including men and women in times of in terms of trainings and how to get it known ensuring that gender issues are mainstreamed and and then also ensuring that local and original variations in culture social economic conditions traditions are all included and respected in any given in in any given information campaign I think with that I think digitalization of land systems will do a better job yeah thanks Teddy for the audience we may take a little more time five minutes please allow us because this is now I think 58 so we may take up to 405 Indians at that time can I move next to Kumar for your final remark so I would say if I could list on what I think digitalization does and what it doesn't so we are very clear that you know if we have it has to lead to clear titling and conclusive titling digitalization does pave a way to that because then there is a certain kind of visibility of what is wrong with the current records and that that makes it easier for the administration to then resolve it further it has to be done now it certainly it also the digitalization also creates a digital economy over data which is now happening with different services and products that are coming up including the to the private players by using the using the data what it doesn't I don't think digitalization alone resolves the land conflicts in India especially the large-scale land conflicts it also definitely has issues that you know if by the administration if it's considered as the single source of truth which is right now the motto in you you will see in many of the digital India digital India documents etc that the data is the single source of truth as many of us pointed out that incorrect data is digitized and that becomes for administration that only this is correct and if somebody is saying no they have contrary contradictory evidence that's not seen that again poses the risk with digitization so digitization I think done with proper checks and balances does pave a way for private property ownership dispute resolution while we need other legal and administrative reforms more fundamental to resolve larger conflicts and proper regulations before we rush into a digital data economy to ensure equity of data use. Thanks, thanks Kumar. Over to you Charu for your final words. I would just like to say that the experiment that we did with the development of this NSRI index this it has shown that credible efforts at measuring the performance it can become a means actually to secure better performance by the states and we have seen that it has demonstrate a receptivity to the areas that needs their attention and it is well accepted by states as we have seen the performance they have shown in a short span of time even during the pandemic time so we have plans to expand this more going ahead from here and to bring many more to bring this index for many more years to show the status of digitization and with other efforts as well and I think going ahead from here and adding a user a survey of users of these random current services will definitely show the efforts that are being put in the digitization front and will also highlight new upcoming issues that needs attention in future. Thank you. Thank you, thank you Charu. Over to you Frank. Final words. Sure great points all around that have already been noted so I won't add to it other than to say let's just remember that digitization is not shouldn't be done at the expense of good governance that we need to be working on government capacity at the same time and ensuring that government and particularly local government can have access to the same tools etc to use the data which I see as potentially a challenge sometimes because I think one of the comments was posted we see CSOs and techies doing really great things but perhaps at the expense of what's really being understood on the ground. Thanks Frank. So let me not dare to conclude everything and give a concluding remark but let me end up with two examples, a kind of stories which in a way talk about two sides of digitization. The first one is an experience I would take a question to tell about that the question number eight I think there is a question that how easy easy to get sex decided data from the digital records. This is a question let me share with you how easy how difficult and what it makes. In India only I think two states have a separate column on gender so most of the states they have columns and caste they have columns and village many other information but gender column is missing so in absence of that it is difficult to do reporting of land or disaggregated data so we try to do this but we see how digitization can help so here we try to see that because when the land is digitized you can access to millions of record through scraping so in the state of Orissa we could access 14 million records through scraping and then we could see that in the names there is a daughter's name, wife's name so you write like somebody's name wife of somebody's name daughter of so by just tagging this daughter of wife of we could disaggregate the data it may not be very accurate but it gave a figure of 26 percent of women land right jointly owned and singly owned land record in four districts of Orissa whereas as for other land you know information based on which SDG has been reported in India is it was just three percent so you can see how digitization can also help in addressing some of the you know issues but on the other hand there is example from Jharkhand where we found that in a tribal village while in the manual records where mostly in the name of tribal people most digitization this village has discovered that all the names in the in the village all the lands in the village has been taken up by two non-tribals so here comes the power of the people doing digitalization because they sometimes are not legitimate actors they come from outside and they work on a different incentive and system so they can change that so I think digitization is a tool as good as its user how we use how we document so I think I will not know make a final comment but I'll leave that to you many thanks to the audience we have 1618 registrations I think quite massive I at point of time I noticed 175 participations the poll participation for the average around 100 and we have 46 questions in the question and answer and I'm not adding the charts I think that makes know the most important participant in this whole webinar is the audience who are remaining silent and typing in the back thank you very much and thanks to also land portal Neil Sorensen for working everything in the background Neil I think you can show your face now before we close hi everybody pleasure great he's the man we appreciate it thank you thank you very much have a good day have a good evening and let us keep discussing about this this issue as you move on thank you thank you