 Hello and welcome to NewsClick's Mapping Fault Lines. In today's episode, we look at the fault lines in UK, the upcoming elections and Brexit. And we are joined by Pravir Purkayastha. So Pravir, looking at UK's fault lines, can you tell us about the kind of divisions that exist in the country and the kind of divisions that exist in the country's parliament? Well, you've asked two rather important questions. Now, if we treat England, United Kingdom, Great Britain, whatever name you call it, and treat it like orientalists have treated the rest of the world, particularly the global south, then we can talk about the tribal divisions in UK. Tribal divisions meaning you have the Irish, you have the Scots, you have the Welsh, and you have the English. So you have really four identities which are in this sense, independent identities which come out to play when you look at the shape of the parliament. You have Ireland, Northern Ireland, which doesn't vote like the rest of England. England, which has Wales in it, which has some Welsh party for played Simru, I don't know whether I'm pronouncing it correctly, which has four seats. They seem to have a distinct identity in England, though they don't want to separate themselves from the rest of England. But you have also the Scots, and they have been having a continuous battle for independent Scotland, who have had referendum held on the Union with England, or what would be called then the United Kingdom. So all of this if you take is already one set of identities. Then you have the religious identities which you map on top of this. Northern Ireland separated from Republic of Ireland because they wanted a Protestant majority. They did not want the Catholic majority of Ireland as a whole. And as we know, this was also part of a longer history in England, essentially wanting people to support them, conversion to Protestantism and Protestants becoming therefore anti-Catholic but also pro-England. So this is a longer colonial history of Ireland itself. And then you have the Scots who have had a lot of battles earlier, who still largely have an identity which they consider different from them. But this is also maps into as we said, not only identities but also religion and the clearest of that is really the Irish issue. And there have been long battles between the Catholics and Protestants in Ireland. And as we know, the Unionists of different shades of which the DUP is only one formation though this is the largest one among the Unionists have an extremely strongly anti-Catholic. They had their history in Ian Paisley who founded the Union, the DUP and who has been identified with attacks on Catholics in different ways. So if we put all of it together, there are deeper, much deeper fractured lines in United Kingdom that it appeared say 10 years or 15 years or 20 years back which are now coming to the surface over Brexit. Now my issue is that when we look at countries which are in the global north, when we look at France, when we look at Germany, we look at the United Kingdom. We don't think of them in the same way that we talk about other countries where we always talk about ethnic, tribal, linguistic, religious differences. But the reality is all countries have that history. And when you approach a crisis, all those fractured lines seems to increase. And that's what we seem to have today in the United Kingdom where referendums on Scottish independence, referendum on the issue of Brexit have led to different kind of fractures as you said mapping the fault lines therefore. And Brexit has already widened all those fractures. So Northern Ireland says that if you do separate from Brexit, we don't want Northern Ireland to be separated from the UK, which whatever it gets in terms of the customs union or whatever the relations it works out to the EU. But this is the view of the DUP, which has supported the Conservatives in Parliament. But if we talk to the Sinn Fein, which is the second largest party in Ireland and the DUP does not have a unionist, do not have the majority in the Northern Ireland Parliament, they would say they would like the relationship to be kept with the Republic of Ireland and therefore there should be a customs free border, a customs union if you will, or at least a much more easy transit of goods and people from the two islands. Now that is also then standing in contradiction to what the Brexit would mean, which would mean the Republic of Ireland is a part of the European Union, but the United Kingdom is not. So what does then become the relationship between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland? So this is the other crisis which is there. So the problem that is there if we take all the perpetration combinations, I really don't see how they can either stay in European Union or how they cannot stay in European Union. So they have, if you will, a existential issue that they can neither stay in European Union, the Brexit was a vote against saying in the European Union and they can neither leave it because then what happens to Northern Ireland and its relationship with the United Kingdom which often teaches a part and its relationship with the Republic of Ireland. I think this is the basic unsolved question and if it does again, what happens to Scotland who actually want to stay in European Union and also want large section wants freedom from the United Kingdom, separation from the United Kingdom. So what do they do? If there is a referendum now in Scotland, will those who want to separate increase, they say we would like to continue to stay with the European Union, why the hell should you go with England, which is the one who wants to get out of European Union. And if we talk about the upcoming elections which are due to take place next month, so if there is no majority this time, what do you think will happen, which way will the parliament go now? I'm not going to predict without a crystal ball what's going to happen in the future. But let's talk about what any of these elections mean. You see, we have this unfortunate issue where Cameron wanted a referendum in order to defeat the section in his own party which wanted a Brexit. It wasn't because he had a mandate that demanded a referendum, that was not the issue. In fact, Labour Party did not want a Brexit at that point before Corbyn took over. And even when Corbyn took over, Labour Party has not really asked for a Brexit, though we know there are sections of Labour Party which might want to want a Brexit, but that's all been in its position. It didn't want a referendum. The referendum really came from outside both these two major parties and from sections which would be considered otherwise extremist sections. Really those who are UKIP, really anti-immigrants and hostile to any, shall we say, the brown population of the world, certainly much more hostile to them, but also all migrations, all immigrants. Now, if you take the Conservative Party, it had a large reservoir of people who actually sympathise with that position, but are still in the Conservative Party. They were demanding continuously that they should leave the European Union and blaming European Union for all the problems that UK had. Given that, Cameron thought that if he defeats this section in a referendum, then his hold over the Conservative Party would increase. It proved to be a gross miscalculation leading to his having to leave the Prime Minister ship. And then the UK Parliament has not been able to resolve this issue. The Parliament might want to stay, but the referendum says they have to leave. So how do you work out a Brexit which satisfies the parties in Parliament and also satisfies the referendum is really the square ring of the circle. This is the problem. Now, as I said, referendums are not the way if you have a Parliament to decide such issues. The Parliament should really decide. It's an abdication of political leadership, if you will, that you ask the people to decide when you can't. Now that's what Cameron's gamble really was. So I think that whole line is a problem. But having said that, there is a referendum on the ground. People have said they want a Brexit. Now, how do you do that? You have a second or another referendum again, or do you to reverse the earlier referendum or will the Parliament come with a verdict which will be clear for one party? Looking at the scenario at the moment, I think the Conservatives are going to lose. But again, the bigger problem that is there is Conservatives have Brexiters and anti-Brexiters. The Labour Party has Brexiters and anti-Brexiters. More than that, there are sections within the Labour Party which would like Corbyn to lose, even if it means the victory of the other side. Because for them, Corbyn represents a threat they thought they had defeated, the threat of the left in the Labour Party and the unions in the Labour Party which were supporting the left. The left in the Labour Party which Corbyn had strengthened or which has been strengthened by the fact that there has been a huge influx of young people coming into the Labour Party, that has produced the reaction amongst what would be called the Blairite Labour, who would like the left to lose, come what may. For them, any victory of Labour under Corbyn is an anathema. So they would like Labour to lose. So even if it means that for one more term, they have to sit out. So you have that division in the Labour Party in which those who used to lead the Labour Party earlier, who lost to Corbyn, would prepare to see defeat of Corbyn rather than a victory of Labour. You have the Brexiters within the Conservative Party who want to leave. But there are also those in the Conservative Party who do not want to leave. The interesting part is, those who want to leave, which is the white nationalist section as it is called, I would call it the white racist section, Faraj being the leader of that section, they seem to have said that they will let the Conservatives win and they will not contest or put up candidates where the Conservatives are contesting. And the belief that Labour represents the bigger danger to them. So they would prefer Brexit first, but Brexit and Labour, if that is the choice, they would prefer that Labour be defeated. This is one set of positions which is emerging. So we have to see how the vote will go because otherwise Boris Johnson is a Trump-like figure. He appears to be somebody who attracts media attention, but he would take what he says, it appears that he doesn't have the depth of a leader of a country. So this is the problem that we have, that the Conservatives have, but he is very firmly Brexit. So therefore he is actually leading today the Brexit campaign. But the Conservatives will actually at the end of it in Parliament vote for Brexit as a whole we have to see. But the real issue is what happens in the election. And if Corbyn is able to get a different direction in UK, which will not be just pro and anti-Brexit, but which is going to raise fundamental issues, what does UK do now? What does it do with respect to welfare? What does it do with respect to the role of the state in the economy of the country? What does it do between the financial oligarchy, which really runs the United Kingdom, which is headquartered in the city of London, which as you know is essentially the second most biggest financial power in that part of the world, which the UK, the US and the NATO countries control. Not Russia, not China, not Iran, but almost rest of the world where the dollar is supreme in which the UK as a financial centre, particularly the city of London, really is a part of. And the city of London has along its all its satellites, which are all the tax havens in the world. The largest tax havens in the world are all UK territories in different ways. They are all, you know, so and so islands, so and so outpost just off the coast of England, but there are at least I think about 40 territories, which essentially UK today controls, which used to be ex colonial outposts of England, or as I said islands off the coast of England. So those have are the ones which are which is where the UK's financial power comes from, which is really the control of black money, as we Indians call it, this is the control of black money in the world, or hot money or money, which is aligned to criminal money, it's aligned to essentially money, which comes from opium trade, various other nefarious activities besides, and of course, a huge amount which comes from big multinationals who don't pay tax. They've had quartered themselves in different in this tax havens and who don't pay tax and therefore, is their money as well. So all of this put together is what is also the issue of Brexit. If they UK leaves Brexit, can it with the United States still become a major player in this hot money circuit, or will it lose that as well? So that's the other element that is coming up. And Corbyn's attempt is to say, we need to leave these kind of spurious wealth, which does not help the people of the United Kingdom and really base ourselves on productive economy. And that means a completely different direction for the United Kingdom. And I think that's a real test, whether the politics will go that way or politics will go on ethnic identity, race, all of these issues, religion, all of these issues, which the Western world has been saying is only a third world problem. So what we now see is the third world problem is either visiting the United Kingdom, or it's never been really a third world problem. This is how all countries are. It's only when you look at other countries, the spectacle of Orientalism, then it appears to be a third world problem. Otherwise, when you look at the United States or the United Kingdom, they have essentially the same set of issues. It's only that we don't see it as such. And I think the United Kingdom is a classic example currently of that. So thank you Praveen for joining us today. That's all the time we have. Keep watching NewsClick.