 So it is my very great pleasure to introduce Dr. Harrell Patel, our speaker today who is a lecturer and architect at Cardiff University. Harrell's research and teaching aims to better understand the needs of users of the built environment. Her PhD research theorizes the practices of adapting academic library buildings, and she's also designed a framework to better align learning spaces with curriculum. Her talk today is titled the building is never complete, a tale of space, users and technologies. There's also a list, a selection of Harrell's publications listed on the DSF web pages. So if this inspires you to go find out more about her work afterwards, it's some things to get you started. So I'll hand over to Harrell now. Thanks very much. So a lot of my work and kind of insights that I will be sharing with you today comes from my PhD research at University of Reading between 2012 and 2016. And I just wanted to put that put it out there that it is very situated research. So my focus was looking at this one building and trace the evolution of that building over 50 years at that time and now more. And when I started this project and my research, I didn't realize the kind of complexities of adapting library buildings. It was through working with with collections and and observations and and sharing experiences and learning from staff and students that I learned how complex the functioning and operation of a library is. They, the building was opened in 1963. It took about five to six years prior to that to design the building. And the master planning was was a decade before so quite a long process of of designing the building. And since then it has undergone a series of refurbishments and extension. The building was originally designed by the architect Frederick Leslie Preston from a firm called Eastern Robertson in Custain and Howard Robertson was our IBA president Royal Institute of British architect president in 1945. So quite a prominent firm to to design this building. And also an extension was added in 1980s by another renowned library architect Faulkner Brown. And recently, a major refurbishment was completed by Stride Treglawn and the project has been nominated for various awards. It has got a rich design history to it and and I hope that the insights that I will share you could relate it with with the buildings that you are based in or you're working with. And if not, I would really like to hear other other views. The way I'm good I have structured this talk is is a series of three things that are required, especially since the pandemic and and towards towards the more kind of digitally enabled future that we are heading towards. So, the first rethink I think that that is required is to go back and assess whether the trends that that we are seeing now are actually new or or what. And so I took this, this very vocative essay by Carlston Scott called the deserted library and during 1990s and early 2000. And I think that if identity crisis for library was quite palpable because the, the PC was just kind of entering the mainstream mainstream way of learning, really, and that really put a question, or do we really need a physical And I think that question is so relevant even even today. And what I've done is I have taken some of the insights from the design of the University of Reading library building in 1960s and what were the things or trends they were thinking about at that time. So I took some of the insights from Scott's paper to cover that midpoint around 2000 and and then I have kind of gathered insights from current debates that are going on around around what we are facing now so I'll just go one by one. So firstly collections 1960s they were talking about print collections and there was quite a lot of discussion in the design of the library of how we are going to accommodate. A lot of stock, basically, and whether we have a rolling kind of stacks which close together, it was called compact shelving so whether we should have that or whether we should have normal stacks so that users can access books without really posing any safety issues. In 2001 we we were kind of seeing that digital was becoming as an as an option, really. So you have lots of print collection but then digital is emerging. And now what we are seeing is, is preference for digital first, almost for for things like journal articles, textbooks for students and even even ebooks. In 1960s the access was to collections was physically you have to go there and access it into 1000 we have we have seen that the digitization has improved the access to collection it has and now it's kind of to a scale where we also have digitally generated collections so so collections which are generated on computer. And, and, and so it has increased exponentially, but I think we have, we have become more sensitive towards the issues around digital inclusion. In 1960s there was a concern around library instruction so whether students have necessary skills to navigate the information and how can we support that that has kind of rephrased itself in in the term information literacy. And the concern here is that students might go that if you can't find it on internet, it must not exist. This has become a much greater concern now because if a student cannot find it on the first page of the Google, it must not exist. So I think the tension spans have have decreased and and it's really information literacy has become a key issue, especially there's so much information available online and how do students navigate information. I think in 1960s at shredding University that it wasn't just chairs and tables they had this idea of having a comfortable sitting area and so there were so far as and studies to create that a comfortable environment for students. In 2001 the drinks kind of made their way inside the library and and this was kind of seeing at bookstores and and and seeing that bookstores are successful because they combine coffee with books and and give that form homely feeling. And now I think we we have kind of accepted almost that coffee and drinks and and and kind of books go okay and also we are now bringing in other kinds of spaces like maker spaces which are more messier so to say to to work around. And co location of services has been an idea which I thought ran through all this years. There was always this idea that it should be a place where a student can come or a user can come and find different support services around them. Exhibitions, again, is is a trend which I thought has continued over over this period of time. There's also the social element of library and at at University of Reading collection. We had a data set of a questionnaire survey from 1969 and it asked students lots of question one of them was a free text question about. They can write why they are at the library that day, and we could sense this this intent of being there for socializing also flirting and and being seen. The library has been throughout this years considered as central to create a common academic culture or academic and hold together the academic community and to really bring that intellectual energy together so that is a common theme. I think throughout my presentation I'm going to emphasize on silent study space and I think library provides a unique space within a campus where somebody can study silently in a silent environment. So we can see that there are teams which have kind of continued and teams which have evolved and I think the trends there's lots of lessons to be learned from from this trends as we move forward. Everything that is required is around adaptability and I know that this might be a key concern for a lot of you how do we adapt buildings over time. And my research suggests that it's it's kind of a continuous process. It's that there are things which you can or strategies which you can build in at the initial design of the building. Those strategies might not manifest at 10 years down the line or 20 years down the line, because you are faced with a completely new problem. So, I think adaptability. Yes, you can think of it as at the design stage and I will, I will, I will probably talk about some strategies, but I think the key takeaways that it's a continuous process and it's it's also quite political and one has to manifest to manifest adaptability in buildings. This is a concept which I think is is useful when we start thinking about adaptability and to think about building as not one monolithic object, but as a series of layers. And so this is an idea, which has been developed by a workplace strategy firm, DGW whose collections are also at University of Reading. And what they have got here is is divided the building into layers which change at different rates of times for instance the structure of the building will not change as much as say stuff so moving around tables and and furniture. So, so by separating this layers and by trying to create as much less of a contact between these layers, we can make a building more more adaptable. So, I tested this concept on on a particular section of the library building at University of Reading and, and let me show you here. The mouse has disappeared. Okay, so this rectangles really are color coded pink and their stuff and you can see the columns are green that structure, and then the sign color the blue is is services. And those are actually socket so in 2014. You can see that some tables really each table had an occupancy of two people on this larger ones or three. It was really difficult to have enough sockets around tables so that students can put their plug in their laptops. So, in, in the refurbishment, what was done was a new sockets were added here so that each student on safe there's a capacity of two students per table each student would have a socket to put their laptop in. And what this really did was tethered the tables to do the services, and if we move the table slightly by even one meter then we start seeing that some of the tables really struggle to have an accessible socket. The lesson here really is that to try and create this the separation requires quite a quite a conscious decision making process but also I think sometimes it's really difficult to have this kind of separation because you don't know what the trends are going to emerge. Sometimes you think whether they the kind of resources that you put into a building to have adaptability for future is the right approach because we don't know whether they are going to be used or not. The other feature about adaptability is reusing the furniture and I think this is a very good example here. And it also shows that the activity of reading and studying at a desk has remained constant over years. The tables have been really successful since 1960 1960s and in 2014 you can see a small hole was drilled into this table to to accommodate computer locks so if students leave the desk with the with the laptops there, they can lock it and and go and get a book. In 2014, a divider was added to create a more kind of personal space and make it more conducive to learning so the table as an object has survived such a long period of time and it has it has kind of upcycled itself and adapted to the practices. The other way thing that is required is around occupancy and this occupancy is a very complicated matter it's it's I think it's very complex than just counting number of people in a building or number of people sitting on furniture and This is this is the idea of territories from Erwin Goffman, and he said that there are different sorts of territories as when you start looking at the interaction between people and kind of physical spaces. So first one is stall so it's it's like setting up a space, a study space with physical boundaries around it so for instance carols might be a good example of that. The second territory is the use space to the area just in front of, of you, and like a desk or something where you are using that for for your activity. The third is the possession territory so one can imagine a desk with with computer and so by occupying that desk you're also occupying the computer so you're occupying a lot of things around that particular space. And the most important I think in the context of social distancing is the personal space and here Goffman is thinking about not a sphere around somebody but a more kind of a contour which goes and extends more towards the front, then towards the back. So, in my observations about how people occupy seats, I found that people used to kind of sit one desk apart, even before COVID because that's what made them comfortable in terms of their personal space and they, and usually people don't sit just opposite other spaces that are other spaces available so that they don't have that have to make that eye contact so so personal space I think is is a really important concept when we are starting to think about occupancy. And we can see this different territories kind of playing out in the field so for instance here this green kind of seats give the effect of a stall where you have physical boundaries to to kind of you know, look, create a study area. And this is again a stall but here that there is a concept called markers so a user has put their jacket to mark the space you can see that person is not there but it's like this is reserved for me. And this can be an issue in libraries where a lot of marking happens and and as a result students are not able to find study space because people have left that things around to mark that it's in use. But this creates a kind of a completely enclosed private space. So somebody has kind of turned the two of this seats around and here we can see that the possessional space has expanded not just to the to this particular seat and the table but also to the next seat the seat next to it so the space has kind of expanded. And again here somebody has taken a bin which is not part of the of the kind of study space setup. But again, it becomes part of the possessional space. This is the here we can see the personal space they're sitting side by side, quite comfortably, but if they were to sit and this comes to the contour idea which is more towards the front of somebody. So they are, they probably know each other and they feel it's comfortable to sit together to to work on on something. Going forward probably because of if they are part of a bubble maybe that's acceptable but I think social distancing would mean this might not be acceptable. I also did a furniture use study which I think some of you might be familiar with the term sweeping survey, but I went around the building and I plotted four times a day for a week. And I plotted how many students are sitting on a particular piece of furniture and any kind of unique behavior patterns that I see for instance, somebody sitting in a closed glass pod which I'll show with the headphones on, which is supposed to be a collaborative space so they need to be talking and discussing but they are working with the headphones on so. And what I found that even during the times when, when there were, when the occupancy was peak. And here you can see. I should mention this first so so the orange things really show when the occupancy is less than 25%. So if it's a it's a table of four, only one person is occupying it so. Point 20 if there is a one blue dot, then it shows that it's between 25 to 50%. If it's two blue dots it shows between point between 50 and 75%. And if it's green, then it's more than 75% so they are likely to be three or four people occupying that four place table. And what we can see here is that this green pods were were extremely popular and they were used, used the most on that particular floor, and that's because it provided that individual private study area. And then, and this is another piece of furniture, which you can see and I'll show you a picture but you can see that that that's kind of highly underutilized. And it's this particular port where there is a table of six people in a glass enclosure, which was extremely popular so if we go back. It was not that nobody used it people used it but it wasn't used by six people, or to fire six people the maximum occupancy. And what we found is that the maximum group size was was five, and the most frequent group size was two or three people. So in the next phase of refurbishment, what was done was that instead of having six, a table of six. Two of such ports were provided with the capacity of four. And I think that that serve the student needs perfect because they were looking for something which is enclosed but but for the for the kind of smaller to three to four members of a group. But also, another policy was introduced and this is quite interesting because adaptability of a building doesn't really mean that we need to have some physical changes made to the building but also softer instruments like policy can be used to create a soft building to to so for instance in this case increasing demand that there was a temporal territory created so you can occupy the space only for say two hours maximum. And, and this is another way to kind of manage, manage demand which has, which has I think little to do with the physical space, but more kind of using a softer policy instrument. I think territories of study space aren't just limited to to a particular piece of furniture that they expand and they expand to somebody's accommodation and other study spaces within a campus. So for instance, this particular table space, one might not find in their accommodation because they have put books on and lots of stuff there so if they need a clean desk to work. They might have to come to the library, lighting. It's a big issue to have good lighting and the space might offer that seeing other people so again if you are in your accommodation you won't be able to see other people. And when you come to the library, you kind of see more people. There's no bed and I think that we are doing some kind of student assignment around how architecture students are coping during pandemic and we have found a bed in their accommodation to be very distracting object and just having no bad, no bed around you can be, can be useful thing. No eating and drinking. I mean, this was this piece of research was done when coffees weren't allowed in the library building it was in early 2012. But now I think you can drink coffee and possibly eat some snacks as well. No TV or YouTube, because there's also this kind of peer peer to peer review if you're watching YouTube in in the study space. So you're kind of under pressure to be thought of as not working. So that's also useful. So I think I just wanted to mention that the space in the library is always as a compliment and as a contrast to other spaces around campus and in accommodations. So it's it's part of a unique part of students learning journey. Another thing we think we need is around exhibitions and I think exhibitions are such a powerful tool. And we probably need more engagement of students and an academics to, especially from, from disciplines which are not arts and humanities to kind of engage with exhibitions. And I would bring in guy here but this, this at the University of Reading Library, we had, we have packet collection which guy will tell more about but it emerged out of one exhibition in 1970s. So, by curating that exhibition, the whole kind of collection emerged and guy you will tell better about this. Yeah, so, so thanks for all. So yeah, essentially I think what you said earlier you use the term intellectual energy. And I think that's exactly what this was about. It wasn't, you shouldn't think of this as an exhibition. This was the kind of catalyst for and kind of focus of a huge outpouring of intellectual energy around Samuel Beckett, the Nobel Prize winning playwright. And the exhibition was the start of this but it led to us building up this huge collection of Beckett material, having a research centre, having an international foundation. But it wasn't just an exhibition either. So the library was a kind of a focus, very much a focus for this because of its ability to do several things to have a space, but also to have people who could curate an exhibition and who could then hold the collection that was built up in the kind of wake of that. So yeah, there were lots and lots of aspects of the library that kind of fed into that but yeah I mean it's a really kind of interesting example is really interesting to revisit it. Last year and actually look again at with the anniversary of that exhibition about how that had been done and the kind of central role of the library as a space and as a team in making that happen. I'll be quiet now and get back to you, Hurrell. Thank you. And I think the library design from the original design had this exhibition halls as an integral part of it, and they had to actually defend because that was considered to be an open area and part of circulation in terms of the metrics and the architects had to had to defend and even the librarians had to defend that you know this is an important part of the of the library and even if that means that it increases the area of circulation in terms of numbers. We should not be kind of, you know, we should not put this idea away so they actually fought for having this exhibition hall in the original design. So, yes, and I think another rethink that is required is around a civic mission of of universities and more more so as as we move forward in in the fourth industrial revolution, and where we were universities would play a key role in upskilling local community and and kind of in a knowledge based economy where they can provide a resource to the local community to to kind of access knowledge. And also digital inclusion in this, because this is a quote from older people's Commissioner for Wales report recent report, and they have found that older people especially struggled with finding access to internet. Due to the closures of library so I think it's just not the younger generations that a library serves, especially students and and people who are who are just embarking work. But it's also the older people and that community which which is quite which can benefit quite a lot from from the library buildings, especially within universities. And here I have an example. For example, I think of hive at Worchester. And it's, it's the first joint public and university library in Europe and I think probably this is one of the future typologies of library buildings where the libraries and just serving the university or academic community but it's serving a much broader local community. And there will be implications on space demand, and there will be implications on collection strategies because if there is a book on the shelf, probably somebody could for a member of public could go and access it. It's a digital ebook that has to be accessed by a university username that creates an issue around access so how do we negotiate negotiate with publishers to open up access to collections is is another kind of issue and it strategy because members of public might really want to use a computer or internet and how do we allow for that, not just access to the physical infrastructure of the library but also the digital infrastructure of of a library. And the major and this is one of the kind of quite key rethink is what is a library, and this is a quote from 1999. And again, it says, it's so relevant today it says the next great library debate maybe over space and I mean this is something that I can say that that today as well that the next great debate would be over space. When the university of Reading library was being designed that is a scribble by Vice Chancellor. And he he's kind of asking the question what is a library, is it, is it a book stack or is it a reading space for users. I would say is it a place for for exhibitions and so I think it's it's the identity of the library has always been contested and it's more so it's it's going to be contested in future. And what was quite quite insightful for me was that the one of the identities of the library was around a boundary to to kind of manage in goings and out is the incoming and out goings of books. And here you can see the example of a book which has got marks from all the different systems over time so for instance there were stamps to begin with 1960s and then there was punch card at one point for the issuing of the books and then came the power code and now that is RFID kind of the tag attached to it. So I think all these different systems show that one of the key element of a library's identity is around creating and maintaining that boundary. And so, I think, in, in future we might need to think especially with the digital collection. How do we define that boundary and how does that impact on the identity of the library. This is the photographs of the exhibition hall that that I mentioned earlier. And it was used to curate a lot of exhibition in 1960s, but as student numbers increased and and the print stock increased the exhibition hall had to be taken over to create study space as well as to to put books, which meant that it became really difficult to organize this large scale exhibitions. However, because we now have lots of sharing agreements between universities for print collections as well as we have digital resources meant that we could free up this area to to go back again and create it as an as an exhibition space. So, so there has been, and this idea on ontological politics is from Anne Marie Moore. And it's really about what is library and the constant politics that goes on between leveraging one version of a library or other, and how the physical building is is kind of embroiled in that in that politics. Sometimes it's even if the physical building or physical aspects of the building are adaptable. There might be other kind of social aspects which mean that we are not able to adapt a building. And so I think that one of the key takeaways that I would like from you. I would like for you is to think about library buildings as not this fixed object, but as socio material practices, and by socio material I mean the interaction between people and things and practices which means that the building is always evolving and always changing. At this point, I would, I would mention a few ideas around library building futures and I would also encourage you to share your views on the padlet link, and I'll go through them fairly quickly. So the first one is around connections. And so libraries quite central to create intellectual connections between disciplines and it's an interdisciplinary space. There are connections between books and objects and lots of different artifacts the social connections between not just students and staff but also the members of public and the special connections between different spaces that become part of a user journey. Library is unique and I think the future library buildings should cherish this uniqueness about have providing silence study space because I think there has been a lot of noise around collaborative study spaces and I think the survey from HDQF in 2019 shows that students find silent group study spaces most difficult to find on campus so this is something quite unique to the to the identity of the library which needs to be cherished I think. We would see that more and more, especially to to address the carbon agenda. The demand in terms of library spaces would mean not adding extensions but maybe if we using some of the existing spaces across the campus to provide the studies to provide study space. The challenge there is to create that holistic identity around library, which is dispersed across spaces. And so that means curating the experience of of what of the library across this multiple spaces. And also the architectural quality of acoustics comfort, the kind of furniture and natural light I think it's important, but also amenities like study resources and access to library staff and food and drinks would be important to to be addressed if we are starting to disperse the library across different spaces on campus. And I think if coming from a built environment point of view. It's it's a more of a note to to myself as well as I think for us clients to start thinking about a building project, the before and after of the building project so. If you think about before its continuous briefing and how do we make sure that we are continuously engaging with users through not just before the building project throughout the building project but also after the building project. And again, there is a third edition of this book that I'm involved in and we are really excited to to bring this idea or refresh this idea again in current context, especially COVID-19 post COVID-19 context. And if if you would like to get involved in that just just get in touch in that book. The second thing is around continuous post occupancy evaluation and post occupancy evaluations tend to be a snapshot of of a library just maybe one year or two years or three years after a building has been finished but I think what is required is that continuous evaluating the building over time but also changing the criteria as we go along because the criteria become outdated as well so I think it's it's that continuous feedback loop from from how a building is functioning to to making interventions and then and then testing it again. I would also suggest that user insights are drawn both from qualitative and quantitative methods and by quantitative I just don't mean statistics but also mean big data. And again there's interesting kind of complementarity between small data which is highly qualitative in depth and big data and they both can can when combined together can be really powerful. But I think engaging more with this user research would would help in creating a better library service and not just better building. And this is an interesting insight to have a person a custodian for building culture and behavior from Harriet shorts research here. And that means that somebody who who curates events and kind of manages space or constantly aligns space with library services and can feed back into the briefing process and the evaluation process so somebody who is not just looking at facilities perspective or health and safety perspective but taking that more kind of building a culture or a community around the building and that kind of role might become increasingly important as we as we have to kind of work across this digital and the physical environment. So the future the library can be extremely functional. It can be a house of natural light exhilarating experience and a lesson in the use of space proportion light and out of the building. And this was what was mentioned in the speech when Frederick Leslie Preston architect of University of Library University of Reading Library was awarded an honorary doctorate at the opening of the library building and I think this is so relevant even today. So thank you for listening to me I am looking forward to your questions and if you want to get in touch. Please please do so. Thank you so much for that was so interesting and I've been making furious and copious notes during that so relevant to what lots of us are going through at the moment. I'm going to start with a question which is something differently in the UK I think a lot of us are focused on, which is with obviously the pandemic at the moment our study spaces are quite reduced in our library so at York for instance where I am we've gone from about 1300 spaces to about 350 within the library. Obviously in order to meet student demand and things we're looking at what other spaces could we use across the university and really interested in your point that you just made around how we create and curate that library experience and that library identity across those spaces. And having looked at some of your publications before this that learn the learning space compass framework that you've developed I wondered if you thought that might be something helpful and practical that we could use and in terms of looking at this. Yes, no thank you for for highlighting that learning space compass framework and just to give a bit of a background to that that was part of a consultancy project for higher education design quality forum which is a client forum within UK. And it's what they wanted or what they have seen and especially experts in the field had seen was that there was a lack of a common language between academics and architects and there were not many occasions when academics got the chance to sit together with architects to discuss pedagogies curriculum and how that might align to space. So the learning space compass is really to fill that gap where you can you can use that method methodology to have a session or a workshop. And it's not just for briefing new buildings it's also for ongoing management of space so you can sit down with with somebody from a states and an architect and yourself. And see okay these are the different learning activities that we want to want to do. How can we align the space best to it so coming back to your question as we are seeing more of a dispersed library experience, it could actually say okay what are the different activities that we want to encourage in terms of enhancing student learning. And so okay what can what are the different spatial characteristics that we that we need to focus on and that can give an output which you can use to either have interventions small refurbishment projects or or maybe just policy based interventions might be needed. So, so again it's a useful tool and I'm currently doing a project on it where we are, we are developing it as a toolkit which which academics can use for their for designing that blended learning, because what is increasingly becoming important is the question what should be delivered face to face versus online versus online. And so, if you if you would like to learn more about that or get involved in developing that toolkit just get in touch, but more on that will follow in the next two to three months. Great, thank you. There was also a question about the pods which you showed at reading that were designed for six people and you talked about the policies around that. I was going to ask a specific answer the specific question sorry about how how that was managed if they weren't bookable how that two hours was enforced, but I actually had a slightly different question for you which was, did you look at the the kind of self management of space as kind of part of the study that you did. By self management. I mean, so self management could pan out in the sense that if there were a couple of items lying around would students remove that and kind of take over that space, which students didn't normally do but I think a few years later University of Reading created a campaign where they said, if you are finding space, which has been left left marked and unoccupied for for a long time, just get in touch with us and we will remove them and make that space available. So, and I think that kind of marking of space was used by groups quite a lot and again we have to think from the student perspective because students don't have home bases on campus so they are moving around with quite a lot of weight in terms of the laptop, their books and stuff, and they have got to go to a session here for an hour or a session there for an hour. And so what they did was one of the one of their friends would sit on a table and look after everybody's stuff while everybody's going everywhere, and then come back so again from student perspective I think it demonstrates the lack of home bases on on campus. So just on the specifics, it's very similar to what Hurrell said and thanks to my colleague Sue's in the audience and answered really quickly to give me the definitive answer, which is that the reactive enforcement of that so if someone, if a student complains and says we can't get in a space because these people have been in there for four hours, then library staff would intervene. Thank you very much Guy and thanks Hurrell. The next question is about, obviously talked about the Hive at Worcester, and there's a question about whether you've done any comparative review of multifunctional spaces, like the Learning Hub at the University of Northampton, where enclosed spaces are teaching or offices, and the open spaces tend to be library spaces across a big, across a big building, sorry. I haven't done such a comparative study but what I have done is I've looked into workplace sector, and so where offices, and offices for different organizations and how different organizations need different kind of offices so for instance, an open plan office might not work for certain kind of organizations like a legal profession where confidentiality is a big part of it. So, but open plan might work perfectly well for a financial services organization because they need to see each other and they need to pass on non-verbal cues. So, I would like to kind of comment on that that there is a need to look at what actually happens in terms of what are the practices or activities that are happening within any organization and whether the spaces are corresponding to that or if there are ways in which we can enhance some of those spaces to better align with what's happening in the organization. I answered the question right but do ask me a follow-on question if this wasn't what you were expecting. Thanks for, I think that's fine. I'm going to move on to a question about EDI next and obviously it's something that lots of us again are thinking about and not just the minimum legal requirements but actually how we provide a quality user experience. And just wondering if your research has come up with any key findings or recommendations, including accommodating the digital shift within the kind of the space itself. Yes, I mean accessibility is one of the key issues. One of the things which needs to be considered is the bookstacks and the spacing between the bookstacks so that a wheelchair user is able to access them and especially if they're high, how do we support them whether somebody accompanies with them when they are navigating. Because browsing is such a unique experience and it's quite, I think it's quite an intellectual experience to browse through different books, especially for humanities. And so I think it's access to bookstacks but also I know that in my study of furniture spaces I found that if libraries open longer hours, some of my female participants they prefer to sit in an open area so that they felt more safer. So I think it's also about that element of safety around different genders. I mean Reading University Library has tried mixed gender kind of washrooms and it has been an interesting experience. But I'm not well placed to comment on that because I finished my research by then but maybe Guy or Sue in the audience might be able to comment on that. But again I think it's digital, like I mentioned it's about digital inclusion also involves access to physical infrastructure. And I think that is something to bear in mind that it's about accessing the Wi-Fi network, accessing collections on the computers which are located in the library for a member of public. I think those are the kind of things that matter. Did you want to comment? I think Sue's updated to say gender neutral toilets but I don't know if there's anything you wanted to add Guy? No, sorry I haven't got anything to add on that one. Thank you. I don't know if we've got time for another one. I think I'm just going to ask one very final thing which is really just to draw everyone's attention back to the Padlet where there's some fantastic postcards coming in that, Harrell I'm sure you haven't had a chance to look at yet so you'll be able to look at them after this. I'm not sure you can answer this very, you know, in the time that we've got left but there is a question about in your opinion what makes a library a library. And so I think you can have a cop out here of saying you've put some postcards on there already with ideas but I don't know if there's anything you want to say kind of finally just before we wrap up. Yes, I mean the answer in one sentence is that there are a lot of things that make library a library there's not one thing and some of them I have put in the postcard but again, if you go go and look at my chapter. This building is never finished. It has got a triangle there which says what are the different things that make a library a library so you will have to read my chapter for that.