 You leave the school and the real world hits you. It really hits you. Go and get a job. Sorry, you need to step up. And that's, I think, is a natural condition. Even when you're going for your first job, you've got to go and I've got to get a job. Wow. Your mum and dad's like, you've got to start paying rent. You're becoming a man. I mean, you should be becoming a man when you're at the age of 13. We're not continuing to play video games. It's like, you're about to become a man. And very much, that is a Western cultured thinking. It's all right. Here's your iPad. Here's your computer game. I'll get you lunch. I think we're wrestling also with that part where young men and young women, am I worth fighting for as a woman or as a man? Have I got what it takes? We need to create these environments for this next generation to get involved with stepping up to the plate and taking responsibility. Welcome to The Savo Show. We have Mike Smith from Useverb here, originally out in the oil rigs and all that mining, oil and gas stuff. And now he's part of a tech company here in Perth. I met him through I Already Forgot. And yeah, we've been mates ever since. Mike, thanks for coming in. Yeah, pleasure. Thanks for having us. First podcast. It is. How good is that? Prime Time. Yeah. Yep. Virgin Popcast with Siva. Thank you. That's it. So, yeah, a bit of history. When, how did we meet? Who introduced us? Do you remember? I think it was, we just got a warm lead, I think. It was, we were obviously heavy into social media. We saw you had quite a presence here in the Perth market. Man About Town. And as we were starting to get into that product that we can sell phase, we were looking for some key influences that stood out. So I think with your height and that big broomhand or mustache, I think we sort of said, this is our guy. So I think we just built a relationship on that. And I think we're on a similar journey and trajectory. So I think with that, we sort of reached out. And I think we've been friends ever since. It's always helpful being on a similar journey but like complimenting one another. Yes, absolutely. So the last time I kind of, I don't know, looked at the use verb journey. You are looking to improve the UI UX and it has officially launched. It is available for market. Yes, it's really exciting. Just to give you a bit of background, it's been something we've been developing for about six years in stealth. So it goes with a bit of the startup hype because that word has a lot of buzz but we're so well developed now that we really can't call ourselves a startup anymore. We're a tech company. So how do you do it for six years and not getting a sort of, I don't know, what even do you look for in six years to go, yeah, yeah, this is gonna work, this is gonna work? Look, I think it's a natural journey, a business to become established, it takes three to five years and I think because we've been very well supported in the way that we've developed this platform, we haven't needed to go and advertise to market, seed funding, VC, that sort of thing. And with Paul Ducca, our CEO, understanding there's a product, there's a niche that needs to be met, getting to the end of that cycle, we're at a point where we want it to be right. We don't want to just hit the market, test it, come back. We've done the perfect concepts, we tested that in San Francisco, brought it back into Perth, but now we really feel just on this post-COVID, we're looking for a new normal and we've got an exciting application platform that's gonna change the way people do business. So I'm in the elevator with you, how do you tell me about it and where are going up 10 flights, 10 floors? Hopefully it's a slow one. What's your pitch? Look, it's, we're really geared at helping those smaller medium-sized operators operate like big business, very much in a market where people are well-funded. They can afford those expensive job ads on Seek, a great website, a comms plan, but there's a lot of great initiatives that are coming out of this post-COVID state where people have got big ideas even with what you've been doing with your marketing. It's fascinating with the AI and that sort of thing. We need to find a way to help the small man think big and use verbs really a product which is a suite of tools which helps you find great people and get on with work. So by building that platform that really targets the people part, not the equipment or the systems, but focusing on people-high people. But we're using a real piece of tech to actually re-humanize that. Amazing, amazing. And I mean, I think it's amazing for someone who hates writing CVs and resumes and having to change them all the time depending on which business I'm applying for and the context. I love the idea of just answering someone's questions through video. And naturally, I don't mind myself in front of the camera because that's what I do for a living. But what if an employer was only seeking that type of employee and there were people out there who didn't like that idea based on the fact that they don't want to be on camera but they still want the job? How do you navigate that? I'll say it with two parts. We are coming into an era of the video iteration. People would rather watch the movie than read the book unless you have time to sit by the pool and read a novel. We want the information quick. This is why TikTok's kicked off. It's short form, it's fast. No one wants to get the Bunnings barbecue catalog out to go and put the barbecue together and then try and fast forward to the section that lets you know where the screws are. So in the type of the market that we're talking about is we need to look at a more well-rounded hiring approach. We are not just video, we are both. And what we are trying to help businesses understand is that some people are just not good on paper. Some people are better in person. So very much myself, highly technical on paper, engineering background, very technical, but I've got a people characteristic that I really want to present to clients when I meet them and I only find that I get a chance to meet that requirement when I get to the interview. Now, if I'm going through the Sausage Machine, trying to get to that interview and all these AI analytics and ATS systems trying to shortlist me out, I said that part of that really makes me shine is being disrupted through a process that actually is dehumanized. But the most important part, which is the actual interview where you get to meet me, I don't have a chance to show people. So all we're offering is both sides of the coin. We're not just saying we are only doing video with the whole ATS system where you get to speed up your talent pool. We're really focusing on time and allowing employers to meet your candidates in less time that takes for an interview. But you get to meet them before you meet them in person. And sometimes that might be the point at which you go with your gut and hide with confidence. Do you feel like that could still be in a disadvantage for the introverts out there? Oh, absolutely. I think it's also a disadvantage for the extroverts out there. We are, I put it down to the disconnect. We are finding more and more ways to disconnect in a highly connected world. We are the technologies that's ramping up. And naturally when we connect with people, we're saying we're busy. The time is getting consumed. We can help people get their time back. They have more time for people because when you give time to people, they feel valued. So if you're an introvert, fine. I understand that you may not feel comfortable doing those videos, but we are finding with this next generation that are coming in, they're feeling very comfortable once they get through that gate or that feeling that a phone has become weaponized where I don't wanna put myself on video because of what people might think. But do you know what? That's the best part of who you are. The part inside of you that makes you spark. So if we can show that and give that opportunity for people to be identified by who they are as well, it's not just what they are. I think we've got a great opportunity to change the way we connect with people in business. Yeah, absolutely. And I've had a few times now where I've been looking for interns and some have been quite good on paper, through email, through direct message. But when it comes to their social proof, which is something that I need, I need examples of you working because that's what I'm looking for the most is someone who can edit videos. They don't have any evidence, whether it's their own evidence or for their clients, but they say the right things on paper. And when they come in, they don't even walk the walk, they have no chance for it. They would have, I would have saved so much time I had a video sort of call with them and now I really just do that, like the Zoom call option, for example, the Zoom interview. But obviously for an employer, looking for an applicant with over 150 applicants, let's say through LinkedIn, and they want to bring it down to about 10 applicants to go to the next stage, would you say that watching 100 different videos is far less time efficient than having something sort those 100 through the text? Sure, sure. So qualifying? Again, it's both parts of that. It's, we're using processes, I suppose even when you've got a problem on an application or a subscription, we get annoyed when we've got to sit there on the phone, push number one to speak to this person, push number two, you just want to speak to someone. But if it's not to disrupt or move away from processes and systems that work, but I think there's something we're losing in our way that we need to do business and that's working with people. We come to work and to work with people. There's a job to be done, I get that. There's skills that pay the bills. But if the end of the day, we're not getting rid of someone a lot of the times because of, do you know what, Siva, I love those spreadsheets you do. They're all the great, the highest Siva. It's like, do you know what, I like working with this guy. We've got to get back to that place where there's stuff that needs to be done with the delivery of the workforce. Very much the casual workforces, which is an area we heavily focus on. But it's that part when you've got to deliver through people, those skills are not always paper skills. They're people skills. And I think we're losing sight of that because a lot of focus goes into businesses that look at development of individuals and people. But if you can try and find the right people at the start, separating any biased, companies are going to be in a better position to start from a good grounding as opposed to trying to work with that in the industry. Okay. What would you say your favorite problem that use verb solves? Putting a face to the name. Okay. What I mean by that is, again, in a highly tech world that we're moving into, chat GPT and AI and that, it has its place. Don't get me wrong. But when you're trying to put a face to the name, and let me give you an example. When we have to go away, look for a job. The sun walking past your building and Seva's hiring. Send me your resume and CV. Okay. What's required of me is to go away, grab that email, go home, open up a computer. Not everyone has a computer now. Everyone has a smartphone. Put all the information in there. Get the right justification. Get the font right. Get the structure right. If this is being taught in school still, what color paper does it need? Do I need a picture? Do I not need a picture? To the point where they're at a structure that works for that process, what they understand, they need a CV and covalent. Now, they're gonna put that application into, let's say, a job board of sorts. The job board will say, there's all these jobs that you can actually apply for. So what do we do? We've been reduced to the double tap. The like button. Apply, apply, apply, apply, apply, apply. We're applying to all these jobs. Great. There's so many opportunities for me. But as an employer, all those applications to come into you and about 90% of those applications aren't people that actually will come and work for you. But you need to process all of that paperwork, all of that information to get down to a short list of people that actually wanna come and work for you. As you start to review those applications, your time's precious. Recruiters spend about six seconds looking at these applications. I mean, it's like trying to find where's Wally in the book. It's busy. You find the wizard and you find the dog. But it's where's Wally. He's got a hat. He stands out. Hard to find, okay? Now, as an employer, as you get to this short list and then someone walks in the door, you're like, oh my gosh, that's not what I thought they would be. That's not the person I thought. We get that on a first date. We get that as a furnished introduction. We get that when an intern walks in here and doesn't meet the requirements of what you want. It's a gut thing, okay? Business catfishing. Business catfishing. Now you've got to sit with that candidate and you don't wanna be rude because we've all got a good inside of us, and we wanna give people the time of day, but you're wanting to make sure that the best people that wanna come work for your business are walking through that door. And when they're not matching that skill set or that application, because it's been written with chat GPT or it's been written with a bot and it's been copied from a friend, you're like, guys, I want you to come work for me because I've got some big things happening. And if you're a small to medium-sized operator, that's a pain point that you don't have time on a Friday afternoon with your family and your kids and getting the editing done and those sort of things, it's like just trying to find the talent, the spark. But the beauty of what useverb does is with the UI, we get rid of all that. We've got a really slick UI where you put your number and they put your message in there, tell us a bit about yourself, skills and experience, fill in the boxes and you can attach a CV if you've got more details. Then you also get to do the video. And the one thing we're finding is the people that actually do the video actually wanna come work for you. So there's a little bit of effort that's required of you in amongst all of those other applications that the ones that do the video are the ones motivated enough to say I wanna come work for you. So really allowing those people to show who they really are and very much in this generation for Gen Z, it's very similar to the raw short form that they're used to on social media. It's quick, it's fast. I walk past your window. If it's a QR code, if it's branded, scan it. Here's your job board. You become your own jobs board with all the jobs that you can create for your company page on useverb. Scan and apply, fill in the information. Quick little video. Hey, Siva, nice to meet you. Just walking past. I know you're looking for some interns. I'm an out there kind of guy. I've got a bit of information. Check my CV, it's attached. Love to hear from you. The fact that they've put a little bit of effort in, they've come and introduced themselves. We're getting back to that old way of working where my smile's my introduction, my word is my bond and my handshake's my contract. We've gotta get back to doing business at this level but we've got to get rid of the noise and it's the noise that's getting in the way of our ability to do business. So, user is really there to try and streamline that whole process and re-humanize a little bit of it because if you get the right people working for you, you can get on with your business. In a couple of words, summarize that problem solve. What is the problem that that's solving? Is it efficiency? Is it qualification? Efficiency in qualifying the right person. Would you summarize it like that? I would summarize it with what I understand the problem to be in the market right now. Everyone we connect with says I'm busy. I'm busy, we've got to catch up, I'm busy. It's becoming an identity and I look at it from the actual disconnect of what it's doing to people. We are becoming so disconnected in a world that needs to be more connected and it's taking our time, our resource away from our ability to relate to people because I'll send you an email, I'll send you a flyer. We should catch up but because our time is being starved on if it's a small business, there's just more and more busy getting in the way of our ability to spend more time with people. So, I think this is a problem that a lot of businesses are facing. It's just they want to get their time back and everyone's offering something and this is the hard thing when you're trying to patent interrupt a market which is why we haven't been heavy on the marketing. We are literally FOMO. Word of mouth. Really great to be on the show, Siobha but it's building that authority in a market where it's like, I've met USVIRB. I've met these guys. They're cool. They're Perth based. Nothing's been outsourced. Code by code written. We've got a team of 20 guys in the city here, front and back end. It's people, people. We're really trying to authorize our business to be the changer for the game and how we connect and coordinate the world's workforce. We're a global company. We want to disrupt but we want to do it the right way. What makes you think how we got to this point where we are too busy, we are disconnected, where we have to just throw our resume here and wherever to hopefully land something of an interview to then hopefully by chance be in the right connection not realizing that we're probably in the wrong spot and we're wasting that employer's time. How do we get to come to this? I'm a very much out there kind of guy. I'm quite connected. I like to build relationships. I like to draw on those relationships. I think I build authority through that because there's nothing better than a warm lead that says, hey, thanks, Sebel, for introducing me to whoever. It authorizes me. It's a trust and verify. It's like, I trust him and I know him. It builds authority. But I think we, COVID hasn't helped us. It's really put us to bed with sitting at home watching Netflix and ordering Uber Eats. We don't get outside anymore. You're trying to Uber a job now by just sending those emails through Seek. Yeah, absolutely. But I give you a contrast. I don't know how far you want to go back here, but I just have some really cool rituals growing up with my family. It was Friday night was go to Eagle Boys. Pizza night. Get a pizza. While the pizza was getting cooked, they'll jump into a Video Easy or Blockbuster. And you'd go and look down the walls and your releases, whether it was True Lies or The Terminator. And you'd check the cases and they were empty. You'd ask them to go and check the bins and then you'd get like four weeklies. And you'd go home and that whole event was coming together around a table, watching a video with the family and having that pizza. And you'd watch those movies like six times, but now it's literally turn the TV on, watch Netflix, Uber Eats, bang, done. Instant gratification. So I think out of that it's become a learned behavior where we naturally respond to something that's easy, hoping to get a big outcome. But there's a little bit of effort that's required in that. And I think we're trying to use a lot of the social networks that how they use, whether Facebook's for connections, Instagram is for what I've done, Twitter's about having a thought or an idea, Pinterest is an idea. We're trying to use this tech to do more than what we should be doing naturally. And hopefully I think, again, there's this apathy that's coming out of COVID where we're wanting more, we wanted to raise the bar. And there's a lot of people that are going through these ideas out of industries they've been in, very much my background, and like thinking we can do better, you know? But it does require effort. And we've got to interact and we've got to relate. We've got to find a market where we can relate with people. I think educating Gen Z in that space is critical for use verb success because they themselves, they go and do these simple things like ordering a movie through Netflix, ordering food through their phone, ordering the next game. They just download it now. They don't have to go to EB games. They don't have to wait outside 8 a.m. Or the store to open for them to get their disc for them to then run home and install it and get into the first server. That was my memory. Or get it clean. Maybe you had to get it cleaned. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And get it buffed. My favorite memory was back in 2007, 2008, when Call of Duty was just starting to really properly ramp up online. And you would get there. Mine was Halo. Yeah, similar. Yeah. You would get to the store, you would grab your copy, you'd go home, and there might be a one gigabyte update. That's it. And then you would just get straight into it. But now you have to get there, install the disc, which takes a long time. And there's an update, which is a lot longer. And yeah, people can do the pre-saves and pre-download the, so on release, they can just play it. But it's such a, like the plug and play is over. But now it's kind of like you can still download and just literally it's available. And then there's all these features that are in the game you have to pay for to unlock them, even though they're already in the game. Gamification. Yeah, they're coded. But now it becomes, it's going to jobs. And what I'm seeing is Gen Z coming into the workforce. And these are all the kids that I taught when I was a schoolteacher. Some of them come in and think that they deserve six figures. And they're in their first role. Or they come in and they think, yeah, I deserve a 12 month contract without any probation. Or they think that we have to teach them absolutely everything for them to succeed. Proactivity isn't really a word for them. And I feel like use verb is something that can help educate them saying, hey, we're looking for someone, we're helping you get a job. But this is how you keep your job. That's what I've found myself in now is educating Gen Z workers. And I'm helping the employer retain those employees that they've spent so much time recruiting and onboarding. And then over the next three months that those Gen Zs are about to have a wide wakeup call, big wakeup call going, this is harder than I was taught at school or a university. I'd rather just quit now and just go back to my bedroom because I'm still living with my parents. Stuff to pay, I'm too stressed, right? That's what I'm seeing a lot of. People want real seat, Steve, you're real. And I think as we get older, we understand the responsibility we have. You're quite influential in your market and your following. As much as we are becoming very AI, let's say fake, not real. People are looking for those real people that have got something to say and you've got that following, Siva. And look, tell me, Siva, there's that responsibility that we have even as a parent of three kids. It's my job to train up a child on where they should go so that they understand how to make good and bad decisions. But coming out of the whole gaming, just to go back onto that, there was a study done where young adults that were playing so much game, they had lost their ability to relate. And it was like simple bar talk. And some of the results were shown, they'd walk into a bar and go and meet someone. And they get a fight because they've gotten to all of the banter on the gaming and the teabagging and all of that rough slander and talk that comes out of that, which they don't know how to relate in person, which has become wide into their monologue of connecting with people. So I think it's really great what you're doing, Siva, in where you've been as a teacher and that is a great responsibility you have in the industry, but going to market now and bringing a product in and using that ability that you have to connect with your audience. People want to follow you because you're fresh, you're new and you're thinking outside of the box that doesn't conform to the way that things may have been done in the past. It's difficult to monetize that, I tell you, Mike. It is very difficult to make a living off of that strategy. And I see a lot of other influences or creators, they've gotten success through the normal shock value, sort of, you know, put up a whole bunch of funny content and then monetize through that and then pivot into more of a philanthropic thing. I think I've just, I feel like I've fallen short from doing that because I got over the whole shock value. I wasn't even doing shock value. I was doing like more skits and funny stuff and then doing collaborations with companies that I don't actually care about, like the fast foods and the consumer products that aren't actually good for you. And I escaped it before I really fell down that crack and just became a walking billboard. I was a walking billboard for a little while, but I made sure that it was, there was still an aspect of me that wasn't selling out or just doing the same thing, but not really actually giving back to my audience. Now that I've pivoted giving more back to my audience, the algorithm doesn't really, I feel like it doesn't really let you succeed in a way, in the same way as those celebrities who, you know, do all that weird shit and end up selling some chocolate or some, no hate to them, but I'm just like, man, like, they've got a following. The only thing is, if you know you can do that, you choose not to. You are your own brand. But I want to sell education. And that's what I knew that I couldn't sell the education that I think would be more optimal for the younger audience whilst I was in the school system. One, if it worked, the school system would own it because that's their IP. Whatever I made when I was still in the school system would be a product of the department of education. So I left and now I'm like, okay, how do I get, I don't know, a PDF for year eights, for example, it goes, here is a year eight starter pack, right? Related to that Gen Z or Gen Alpha now, which is all the year eights, everybody born after 2010. They're all 13 now, right? Or year eight, year nines. How do I get them to want to download that but also monetize it? Year nines, I know they spend money on V bucks and all that shit and DLC downloads. For a blocks. Right? I'm like, how do I get them to spend $2 to $5? And that's not much. Volume, absolutely. But for them to take that on and go, this will help me survive year eight. This helps me give confidence for my year eight and then year nine and then year 10 and then all of a sudden there's my play, right? When AI first became mainstream back in November with chat GPT launching and open AI, one of the very first chats I had with it was, what is the top 10 most profitable things in the market over the next five, 10 years? And like the one of the top ones was education, online education. And I'm like, online education is where I need to be. Because I like teaching people stuff, especially the younger people. The older people, they're a bit more obnoxious and they don't want to like change as much. But they do. They do have that opportunity. So I'm like, do I go for both? Yes, I'm going for broad and then coming back in. With employment, this is why UseVerb is so good because I'm like, how do you play an approach where you're educating the audience? Where you're not even mentioning the product but you're giving them value for them to remember you going, man, that advice was great. And that's what I discovered that every brand, every company, every product available online who needs to market, that's what they need to focus on. They need to focus on giving value to the audience that relates somehow back to the product, but it's indirect. Over time, people go, man, this profile's giving me some good educational stuff about careers, about how to navigate my way through my first job or how to navigate my way through transitioning from one specific industry to a completely different one. And I'm stressed as an early 20s person because the school system doesn't teach you that. Then they start following that account because it's given them all these insights that the school didn't provide them. And then they're like, oh, what is UseVerb? Oh, wow, okay, well, I'm gonna tell people about this. And that's like where I'm now at. I am patient with my personal brand because it's gonna take more than the next five years before there's some big time opportunities through monetization or sponsorship where I can go, cool. I'm making a living, just being myself and doing my own personal brand and not being a sell-out, but also whoever's paying me, whoever's sponsoring me, whoever's helping me achieve this, I'm happy to work with them as well. So I've had some false starts. So whilst I'm still building that, the other side of me is the consulting side, the advisory side, where I'm helping businesses with AI implementation or marketing, which I've been doing really well at. But yeah, I really hope that I can get to a point and again, it's patients at 32, there's been sleepless nights, I just wake up at 12 and I'm like, fuck, what do I do? Everything grows in the Valley, Siva. That's it. And not on the mountain tops. And you are trying to disrupt something to give answers to those problems. But I think with everything, it takes time to build a brand, time to build personality, it takes time to build character. And as much as there's a lot of influences on TV and YouTube and even my young kids, I wanna be an influencer. I've seen the amount of work that goes into what you do to just become an influencer. It's the video editing, it's getting out there, it's the recording, it's the information, and I think it complements what you've done with your marketing AI toolkit for businesses. It just shortcuts that little tried and tested. I've got a slick piece of kit that actually helps you get your ideas out there, build your pillars, show your brand, get it to market. Takes a bit of the thinking out of it, but the critical thinking out of it so that you can think about what you actually wanna do with your product. Yeah, with the creative side. And it's amazing, but we've got, again, time is the resource that we need to invest and we want things to grow, okay? We're not gonna get the instant gratification that we want because it requires work, it requires effort, and it is a reward for your labor. So very much where I agree with what you're saying with the information, like we've even developed a Job Search Secrets course, which is called Job Search Secrets with use verb, and it's a play ball. It's all of the stuff that shortcuts you like. What is the process? How do I get a job? How do I discuss questions in an interview? How do I negotiate offers? How do I put my CV together? How do I write my cover letter? It's not having to go away and Google and put the information together to create a roadmap on laying routes, but the way that I need to, I've got an interview coming up. What sort of techniques are there? There's panel interviews, there's star techniques. There's first, how do I understand what a culture of a company looks like? So all we've built is this stuff that's already scripted for them to grab and copy and paste and brand to what they need for a clinical one, a professional one, a friendly one, where they can grab this information and say, hey, thank you, that actually helps me. And that's our responsibility as teachers and educators in the market that you're moving into to say, look, I've walked this road. I've walked that valley. Let me teach you a trick or two on how to get to where you're going and help you along your journey. So you've got your playbook and it's a written playbook. Is there any video aspect to it? Basically, there's some really good videos in there where one of the best ones is actually Paul Duker. He's actually deconstructed a cover letter and explains why certain bits of information need to go into certain sections. What are you trying to say? How are you trying to say? The words you need to use, even throw in a little bit of cleverness in what sort of things to say that will attract the systems that they use is like the ATS is. But it's just a playbook that literally if you're walking into an interview right now you could open up on your phone. It's on the app. It's in the courses section. And you're able to go, these are the types of questions you're gonna have. These are the things you need to think about. The day before your interview, even always going three months into the job, setting goals, it's just, it's not allowing that opportunity for fear to kick in and go, I'm not good enough. I can't do this. So how do people find this? The Job Search Secrets course? Yeah. Type in Job Search Secrets. It's on our landing page. You can go to Use Verb and find it or you can go to Job Search Secrets. We have an offer on the moment. If you do sign up to Job Seeker, it's about nine bucks. We throw in the course for you. So what if you had 100 pieces of content on TikTok, Instagram, wherever, that microdosed that playbook in video, 15, 30 second, golden nugget snippets. We're at the end of every video. How do I find more? It always funnels to the playbook. Then people don't have to search it. They naturally discover it through the social media app. And then what you can do is you can grab the playbook and put it through the system, like the system that I've made and it'll actually create you these golden snippets to talk about to then funnel your audience back into that discover it in TikTok or whatever. Have you thought about this? That's why we're here. Right, there you go. So look, great segue, Siva. Look, there's only so much you can do with the resources you have. And again, you've got to try and test the product on. When Emma gets back from her holiday, she's got some work to do. Emma's back. There you go. So she's, Emma, plug to you. Emma Fox here is one of our product coordinators. She's just had five weeks over in Europe living it up. She's had her break. She's grounded and, yes, look, Siva is coming into use verb to shortcut opportunity on how we can hack. Honestly, it's one of my favorite things to do now is I know what needs to be done, but the time it takes for me to write it all out, to dot point it, to paraphrase it, to systemize it, it was fun. The first few times I did it with companies, but then it got tedious, especially when they didn't take it on board because I knew it was a slam dunk. But now with AI, it's done in seconds. And the part that's no longer tedious because it's fun is I'm looking through it and making sure that it's exactly what I was going to write. And that's the human element, right? People are lazy to the point where they just go, yeah, I'll bought it, charge you BT. Yep, yep, cool, that looks okay. They've read the first part and the last part and that's it. They didn't look at the middle. The middle's always got something inconsistent about it. For me, I'm like, great. I'm gonna put this into a nice little presentation or like kind of reformatted in Notion or something like that, I love Notion. And as I'm doing that, I get to read all of it. And I'm like, cool, that's gonna go there. That's gonna go on a sub page. I'm gonna put that in a table. That's gonna be colored. And I know you can get AI to do all this as well, but that's where the magic happens. And we figured out how to grab a PDF of a brand guideline, for example. Everything a business does. And the AI scans all of it and through our prompts and different things that we know about the marketing side. We go, we want to do this for TikTok. We wanna do this for YouTube videos. Come up with different ideas up to 100 that cover each key points in the text and it does it instantly. And then from there, I quality assure it to make sure that doesn't repeat itself because it used to, now it doesn't. And with GPT-4, you can now access Dali-3, which is, it's like image generating. Oh yes, I saw the thing popped up this morning where you can blow box, you can drop an image in here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's wild. And that means that if there's any text in the image, it will be able to identify what it is and then bring it back to you, which is a time saver because there's a lot of PDFs out there that are image based. They've still got text on it. I don't know how it works, but it's crazy. So that's what I would do with the user, but that's what I would do with any brand. And the one thing that shits me still is over the last two years, I've been preaching this, preaching, I hate preaching, but I've been preaching this. I'm like, you guys need to get on to where the attention is. And now they're jumping onto it finally, but they're jumping onto it through an agency that they've been tenured with for the last, I don't know, 10, 15 years. And that agency's jumped into TikTok, not knowing anything about it, but going, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, well, or do this as well, extra five grand a month or whatever. And they shit the bed or nothing goes anywhere. And I'm frustrated because I'm brand centric, right? I'm customer centric. And that's where- And it's usually like we use AI. And then the big disruptor is like, I've tried to challenge the agencies that do like the mediocre job or they just jump into it. And I've seen so many TikTok ads where these agencies, they talk about like, oh, we've done this for a product and all this stuff. I'm like, no, you threw a shit ton of money into ad spends to make the views work. And then you're parading around saying, oh, the views are working. I'm like, no, there's no engagement. I know we had that workshop a couple of weeks back, like months back at WeWork. Very successful. Oh, WeWork, you're gonna get in trouble for saying that. It wasn't WeWork, it was something else. It was, no, with a couple of the companies out of WeWork, but we hosted an event at Switch Living. That's the one. Right, anyone who wants to use that premise is talk to Hugo, lovely guy, but they've got some really cool area in there, which is like a real lean sort of TED Talk space. You saved yourself. But I think one of the things that you do see, I don't want to spoil your product too much because it's worth a look under the bonnet is- Sorry for the interruption, but this show would not be possible without the help of Bright Tang Brewery. They are the major sponsor of the Savo Show. Huge shout-outs to them. Check them out. Great beers, great people, great everything. And well, let's get back to the episode. You build in the foundation of what your company's about so that when you need to ask those questions, and even in naturally, when we ask questions, we go to Recall, which is the subconscious. You're creating a subconscious for the AR to draw from to say, this is who I am. These are my pillars. This is what we're about. Feed it with context. And then your product comes to life by asking the questions. I want to, I want that thought of, oh, we've got to get some stuff on TikTok. Great, write me a TikTok video for this. And it draws in that collective conversation that you cue people into building, which becomes your foundation for the product and how you optimize all those other attributes that you have in your product, branding, advertising, social media. What do you want to do? And I think that's where the real power comes in with as much as you've built your product in the past, you've modeled it off that framework and put it in a nice piece of toolkit. And user-verb is doing the same thing. Yeah. You're creating context through the employer and they're creating a kind of expectation of what their ideal avatar employee has to be. And instead of writing out a CV that matches that, which you can get AY to do, you create a video or a questionnaire or a video. It doesn't have to be public. It just goes straight to the employer. And hey, I mean, if I was to get a charismatic, best actual example is if I wanted social media, I'm not gonna say influencer, but a creator. I want someone that's good at front and back of the camera, but they're also invested in the business that we're hiring them for. And this is something that Australia is still a few years behind the eight ball. Even though there's connecting agencies that like we connect you with the perfect influencer and stuff. I haven't really seen that many slam dunks in Australia. Maybe I'm not looking as much, but especially in Perth, they're just influencers for a small campaign and even me, I've been put into it. And I'm like, what about long-term? I'm not trying to secure my paycheck for 12 months. I am a little bit, but long-term will work better. And I've proven it for a couple of brands and I just did it for fun. And unfortunately, because it was just for fun, there was no retention because they were like, oh, thanks for coming, Sev. But this is where your authority will come in, Sev. And our authority, a lot of people say what they say, but don't do what they say. And we lose that opportunity to disrupt because it's like, you just sound like the same as everyone else. So the real authority comes through the verification or the testimonials of like, do you know what? Check out Sev or check out user. They're real people. I've met with them. It's solid. You can have a great marketing campaign that shows all the bells and whistles in the home of a bill with all the buttons to push. But if you can't back it up, it has no authority. And that authority is usually transferred for a person. We carry authority in terms of the way we speak life and how we use that. But if you're a man of character that has a strong, your word is your bond, when Sev says, look, catch up with Mike, he's doing some really cool stuff, it's like, cool, I will. Because my time's precious. But the fact that you've said it, I agree with it. And one of the biggest processes a lot of companies use is the referral process. They spend a lot of money on the front end. But do you know what? A lot of the actual applications come through referral because it's an authority that gets passed on. So agreeing, if you're an astrophysicist and you know how to land rockets on the moon and do all this, great. There is a very specific skill set that you have, but there's such a strong workforce out there that is not professional, but it's also casual. And we can fit both. But someone that is very low skill, I will. This is very much the generations coming out of education, right? I've got the right attitude. I'm motivated, but everyone wants experience. Do you know what? If I can show them a quick video of who I am, wow. Look at that guy, there's some spark. I love that. And that's what you're selling at the moment. So whether you need to show people what you got. And I know it's hard sometimes when you've got to get that experience, but that can come. But I guarantee, and this is to the younger generation, you put a clean set of clothes on, have a shave, do your hair, walk into a shop, and say, I need a job and shake someone's hand. Right there, and then the fact that you've turned up with the right attitude, I like that. It shows so much around about who you are and not what you are that the companies will say, I can work with that, I can train that. That's a teachable person. That's probably the most important thing is how teachable are you. And that's what I'm looking for the most as well. I don't care if you've never done it before, what is your will power? What's your drive? What is your, how proactive are you? And are you punctual? If you're punctual, that's a big tick for me. But then it's also if you're, if I want you to create something, are you gonna think outside the box or do I need to tell you? If you are wanting to learn something new, a skill, are you gonna ask me how to do it or are you going to come up with three different ways to do it yourself? I sound like my dad right now. And then get me to choose one of the ones that I think is optimal. Because if it's one of those three I was gonna tell you, you just saved me a whole bunch of time picking it out of my brain to go this one. Also, Steve, you haven't had to invest the time to think about what they're doing to come up with a solution that's suitable for them. Tell me what you want me to do. It's like, my dad always used to say to me, I don't wanna hear excuses or results. Now that sounds hard, but what he was teaching me is look, you are so invested in what you're doing that the ideas that you have are probably the best solutions for that. So when you come to me with a problem, hey, this is the problem, but I've been thinking about this, this or this. What do you think? You're the decision maker. And as Seva, if it was coming to you, you'd be like, you know what, that's a great idea. I feel like the education system is not doing this at all. Okay. Like I was math teacher, right? And the problems, like I've got us five step processes, identify what the problem actually is. And then from there, the productivity starts. What variables do you have to work with? Find those first. Then those variables decide which equations you can play with because the variables generally dictate what equation you use. Then once you think you found an equation, put those variables in the equation where you think they sit, and then step four is solve. Step five is, did it work? For some reason, less and less people are doing that. They go, problem, I'm fucked. They don't get past the first step. They run away. What happened? Where did we go wrong? I think with too much iPad. I used the term noise before. Look, noise usually comes from things that are broken. Whether it's in your head. Whether it's in your car. It's usually something that's broken. Things that work, we don't give attention to. And I think there are some education departments that have the heart to do that. But also with the noise, we see the product of what comes out of that. It's a generation that says, I don't know what to do. Can you continue to give us a silver platter? Silver platter. There's also that rites of passage part where you leave the school and the real world hits you. It really hits you. You go and get a job. I'm sorry. You need to step up. And that's, I think, is a natural condition. Even when you're going for your first job, when you've got to go and I've got to get a job. Wow. Your mum and dad's like, you've got to start paying rent. You're becoming a man. I mean, you should be becoming a man when you're at the age of 13. We're not continuing to play video games. It's like, you're about to become a man. And very much that is a Western culture thinking of like, it's all right, here's your iPad. Here's your computer game. I'll get you lunch, I'll get you. I think we're wrestling also with that part where young men and young women, am I worth fighting for as a woman or as a man? Have I got what it takes? We need to create these environments for this next generation to get involved with stepping up to the plate and taking responsibility. But doing it in a space which can guide them, education and parenting to say, you're doing a good job, keep that up. That's exactly what you should be doing. Not, oh, I don't want to get it wrong. I'm worried about what people might think. We need to be starting to build up that next generation. They go, we've got you back. And very much you see that with people that we're not focusing on our elderly. We're not focusing on our youth. It's like, it's about me. And I think we've lost that natural handing down for the generations, even when it's with trades or education or people in listening to that wisdom. Because it's like, I know everything. I watch YouTube. I was at a, I wouldn't say who it is, but it's a close family friend. He got married recently and basically try and work that one out. And he married into this very accomplished family that was in the movie industry. And we're at the wedding and one of them said to me, I said, I need some help with organizing some, some vehicles in there. And the response was, I'll just Google it. And I was like, yeah, but there's something you need to do. So it's just, I think there's that, you train up a child in the way they should go. So it's about giving that next generation tools, whether it's in media and marketing, there's going to be students that just shine. And you're going to be able to give them those tools. So that like a tool, how do I pick this up? There needs to be practical, a practical aspect behind the tools that are given though. And I think the problem that lies is literally the educators out there more now than ever before, in my opinion, in my personal observation, these educators are just regurgitating what they've been told. And that starts to separate a complete one or two or more generations of practicality. I was listening to this thing this morning where the guy was saying, there are too many coaches out there who are preaching stuff that they haven't actually done. They've just, they've just regurgitated from a piece of literature or they've heard someone else say it and they're like, oh, that sounds right. I'm going to tell the next person. That's what I meant by before, trust and verify. We trust people, but we don't verify the information. Exactly. And that's where AI is making it even worse. So AI needs to be a tool to enhance, not to do for you, right? And that's why I'm building the tool as an enhancement. But going back to the educators, the ones that have gone from school to uni and then back into the school system as teachers, I think they're some of the most dangerous to the education system in terms of potential, well, like a threat to the kid's education because they have less practicality than someone who has done life and then has decided, you know what? I'm going to teach this now. But is that the system or the person or the world we live in? I reckon it's all of the above, but more so the system because it allows for that to happen. I think that there should be at least two-year gap between high school and secondary or tertiary education no matter what the job is. Because we're impatient. We want to get that paycheck. We want to get that mortgage. We want to have that car and that whatever Gucci handbag. We want to have that paycheck. Going into what we talked about before, it's what's your motivation? Yeah. What really validates you, Seva? You were talking before about, I know I can go and get a new drink company and put my face on it, but that's not your brand. But you know that it might bring in some income. So you're wrestling with that. What do I do with what I know? Okay. Very much you've decided to change the status quo and try and find a new form of education. We all know that there is a disruption in the way that things are done. We just can't go back to the way we used to do things. It's a new normal. You're part of that new normal and we're starting to see that shift in the way that we educate and you're starting to stand out in the market. So as much as we still conform to the way things are done, there's going to be pioneers in the industry that try to disrupt and say, hey, look, I know how you feel, but I've done something about it and I'm acting on it. I've had a great career in oil and gas. I've worked for all the giants and it's made me who I am today. It's not to say that that was wrong, but I got to a point where chasing titles and egos really started to interrupt with who I was. It was what I was, but the real part that wrestled with it is like, who am I without that? It's like, I leave all this and who am I? It's just Michael. And Paul, again, I've journeyed with him for 25 years. He's like the Elon Musk of Perth. He's got that many awards. He's a top 40 under 40 and he's young. We had a successful robotics company with his brother Grant. Really going to market, but it's the innovation of like big thinking that that sort of industry that I was in was just keeping me at bay enough not to excel or do much, but just do your bit, do your job. And I basically left that industry because I want to be home with the family more. And where my time was going was not into that. I wanted to go into my family and the legacy that I want to leave behind. So Useverb is this multi-billion dollar company no one's heard of yet. And we're just going to market. And the excitement of that, and I've even told Paul, we're going to have a Formula One team. It's like, yes, you get to dream again. Love it. And what does that dream look like? What does it shape like? Because instead of it being a Monday to Friday, it's like, let's get the job done. Let's change the game. Let's have a fresh new approach. Let's use some new thinking. And when people start to see that spark, they're like, wow, I don't even know what you're doing, but I believe in you. And that's that authority that you carry when people go, there's something about that person that's credible, got a reputation, they show their care, and I know what their motivations are. A bucket. You see how that segues from, not understanding how the system works or how it's outdated or how it sets you up at a disadvantage later on down the track with your self-awareness because you've been rushed into something and then all of a sudden, you've got your degree. What are you doing next? You're applying for a job. How do you know that you really want to do that job? You listen to that little voice inside. But what if that little voice inside is like, this is where you need to be because you've gone through school, you've got your TE score, ATAR score, you've got your degree, this is the job you have to apply for. You apply with it. You apply for it. Don't get me wrong, you've still got to do the time. Don't get me wrong, yeah. My dad- For the job that you're- So my dad, very successful. I mean, he's a petroleum geologist. He actually drilled the first well for Woodside over and found the rank and trend and came over from Texas. That's where I was born, from Texas, Houston. But he used to tell me these young pups he used to call me, he used to come straight out of uni and they used to get onto the rig floor or into the workshops or into the office space that he was working with. And they would rub every one up the wrong way because it's like, look at me, I'm a whatever. But he had to pull them aside and knock them down a few pages and says all that bit of paper did was tell me that you're not stupid, all right? So I want to give you a chance to use that bit of paper because you've got an opportunity to learn from those people. And we've got to remember there is a generation which you are in as well, Siva, that you can pass information down. It's like your cameraman behind the computer here now. There's information that you're giving him that he has not learned, he has not walked. And that is the authority that you carry and the wisdom because it goes to them without understanding, but it's passed on as knowledge. And the knowledge is the same thing when mom and dad said, when you go and drive that car, don't speed, yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, I know. When you get pulled over, oh, no, I understand what that means. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then as they start to keep telling you thing, it starts authorizing you and them into going, when they say something, it actually means something. So instead of the intended meaning, it becomes applied knowledge. So basically with that, with that market, you've still got to learn what tools you'll be giving, whether it's degree, whether it's skills, whether it's experience and applying that into a journey that you will have and you will need to get yourself financially stable, you need to get a house, get married, have kids, whatever it may be. But you'll get to a point, which is the point I'm at now, which is exciting at 42. We're going into an era where a lot of what I've learned, whether it's good or bad, has shaped me into the person I am today. And listening to that voice that goes, you've got more inside of you. You've got a lot more. What are you gonna do with that? Do you still want the money? Do you still want the egos? What validates you? And if they validate you, you're giving that authority to validate you. But really let it go, you know, and say, look, there's something more in me and it's been given to me. It's my purpose. It's my potential. And then walk in and activate it. What do I do with that? And looking for those opportunities to act on it? I feel like there's not enough of that happening though. I think people are setting up for their life and they think, well, they just do that for 40 years. They don't reflect back and go, what's my next part of life? A lot of them are stuck. And what I was trying to say before was that journey out of tertiary education. Yes, the piece of paper does kind of weed out the time wasters, but it doesn't necessarily take out the people who aren't really genuine about the job in the first place. They're just there to be workers. And I guess if an employer was looking for workers before I said busy, right? Busyness is sometimes artificial significance. It's like, I'm busy. Oh, you're busy. Oh, I'm busy. Oh, you must be busy. Wow. But what does it really mean? We've lost that ability like when we were young to dream. Like, I wanna be an astronaut. Why? Cause I wanna go and see space. And I wanted to be an Air Force pilot. I'm too long at a NASPA problem and I couldn't do it. But I just, I loved aeronautics. I loved planes and the speed and the language. So just a fascination, even when a plane's landing, the ailerons come out and the engines open up. It's like, whoa, this is a marvel. But we get consumed with, I've got to get here. I've got to get there. I've got to get back. When do we actually stop to go? That's cool. Reflect. Cause our mind is so preoccupied. And again, life keeps us busy. And as I'm getting older, my time is becoming more precious. Where I spend it is where my priorities are. You see a couple of my feeds. It's always about putting priority against where the time needs to go. And whether that's an idea, Siva, someone has a great idea. It's 1% and it's 99% hard work. I didn't have the idea pooled in with use verb. I'm happy to do the hard work. But in the same vein, people are gonna have ideas when they're gonna have to look at people and marketing. How do I do it? They're gonna go to things, what they hear and see, and they're gonna go, oh wow, Siva's got a shortcut. Mike's got a shortcut. That's gonna help me. And it's not gonna happen overnight. You're not gonna get that instant gratification. You've got to work at it. But you've got to make sure you surround yourself with people that are sparing you on, building you up and sharpening you for what you want to do. In line with, all right, I've just got my education. Don't lose your dream, you know? Because it's what gets you out of bed the next day. It doesn't become the factory where I've got to go to work. I've got to get on the train. So if you've got a dream inside, do you know what, instead of looking at the outcome, look at what's the next step. I've got to go and do some research. I've got to go and look at a strategy. I've got to go and look at a business plan. And do you know what? By having that approach every single morning, every single day, your whole psyche will change in that you're working towards something that hits you here. And you get out of bed going, what's today gonna bring? I'm on the Siva show. Thank you. That's it. The people that are listening, I feel like the biggest value that this conversation can give them is, one, pay attention to yourself, continue paying attention to yourself. Don't lose track of what you want to do. And that may change over time. And when you do segue into use verb, when you do apply for a job, apply because you want it. Not because you think you need it. I mean, everybody needs a job, but wouldn't it be cool to have the both need and want together? And that's what I'm trying to go for. Like, I need to be an advisor. I need to teach. But I also want to teach. You put more into your product because your heart's in it. Yeah? Yeah, but it's also hard to monetize and ask for a kickback or, you know, like, hey, can I get paid for this now? Because I'm doing it not for money. But I need to get paid. And that's kind of my journey right now. That's the hustle. It's the hustle and the business side and the sales. That's what stretches you. That's what keeps you going. Finding people that are emotionally unattached that can sell for me is like my current thing. Trying to find people that go, holy shit, this guy's got, we can sell this for lots of money. What is he doing? Why is he not capitalizing on this? I'm like, because I just want to do it. And I feel like there's been opportunities that I've wasted because I've just been like, cool, I'm just going to do this. Just going to do it. We can come back to the referral, Siva, or we can come back to Google. Anyone can Google you. What is Siva? People would rather know who you are. And that only comes through a word of mouth. So you're building your brand, you're authorizing, you're laying bricks into the vision of what you're becoming. Once it hits that point, it's like, that's what authorizes you. All the bricks that you've laid, you're going to go into a space where I know, I wanted it as well, man. Like I said, I want Paul to have a Formula One team. I want user up on the side of it. I've even got use verb number plates registered to me. So when I get my car, hey, that's me, but it's the excitement of the dream of the opportunity I want to provide for my family. I want to leave a legacy behind my family. I don't want to just be, oh, he had that job. That's scary. I can hand that over. And I've always said to my children, if you want change, you got to be part of the change. You can't just have an opinion and go, that's not right. Because it comes back to, what are you going to do about it? There was a great thing on YouTube. I had a good crack up about it and not to talk about the topic, but there were marches in UK around letting the refugees in. All right, so there's no political view here, but there was a guy doing a bit of a slapstick where he went in with a camera crew and he had to pin up a clipboard. And he basically said to these people, hey, thank you so much for supporting the cause, but can I put your name down as a place for them to live? Yeah, they said, yeah. Right, can I be, oh, and it was like, oh, no, no, I've only got a one bedroom apartment or yeah, I'm going to rental. And he's like, his point was, well, where are they going to live? Yeah. Okay, so not to deep into that, but we have these opinions, which are very quick. It's cool to be outraged. We are quickly, misery loves company. I hate that about society. But it's cool to be outraged. Did you hear about this? Did you hear about that? But we actually dive into the, what do you think about it? I don't know, because we are not stopping to think again. And we're fully informed. So at the end of the day, I'm very intentional around switching off with work. This is the opportunity that we've got with use verb. It does separate work and play. And at the end of the day, you can switch off and spend the time where it needs to be, because that's what grounds you. I mean, I don't know if anyone's ever done this, but go and take your shoes and socks off and walk on grass for half an hour. It is the best feeling in the world. You know, it really grounds you. Go and look at green. Go down south and spend a time looking at the ocean and just stop. See if you can sit there for five minutes without looking at your phone. You'll find that there's this battle in your mind that's trying to hit the reward center, which has become a learned behavior, but that's the way you've wired it. So if you can learn to rewire your brain or even change your algorithms on your phone and put those things down and actually look at the things that actually ground you, you'll find that you'll get more clarity and more ideas will come and you'll become more of a creative. Absolutely, absolutely. And I'm more creative with my problem solving and my kind of organization in my life when I'm in bed and I'm about to fall asleep. I wake up in the middle of the night and I've got the solution for everything. I need to get out of the bed. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. I have to turn the light on for it, wake my wife up. But like the last kind of three, four, five weeks, I've been waking up in the middle of the night going, shit, this, oh, shit, I got to do this and this and this and these are all problems. And I can fix them, but the senses are heightened at night and feel like, shit, I need to do this right now. Do you know why that sleep is a superpower? Sleep, it puts everything in order into the folders so that when you need to queue in front of our lobe cortex, all right, you can get the recall. Because sometimes you're like, there's something I need to remember. You need the queue to get the recall. I've got an app here called Poddex. Poddex. And we're pretty much just gonna do a quick firing thing. I want you to pick a topic. We've got the hustle, philosophy, great inventions, techie, deal breakers. And one more, let's go with entrepreneurial secrets. I don't know, I'm quite a deep sinker. See, I'm philosophy. No, I think we've talked enough about that in here. There's a lot of an undertone in there. Entrepreneurial secrets? Maybe, deal breakers, let's go. Oh, deal breakers, okay. They're selfie obsessed. Selfie obsessed, yes. Yeah, are you selfie obsessed? No. I'm not, I would say my better half, my supreme leader, my wife, does enjoy an Aussie, not a selfie. An Aussie. But she's great. She will actually make sure we're taking photos and I will always say a couple of years later, that was a great photo. I've got it in my place. What if they live too far away? Obviously you're not living together yet, for example. Oh, in a relationship? Yeah, hard to stay connected. I'm very much a people-people. So I'm very intentional when I get people my time. You've got my time because it keeps the connection going. So when I feel there's a bit of a drawing away, I really try to be intentional about hey, we need to catch up. What if they're in debt? What, relationship? Yeah. Who? Partner? Yeah, this is a deal-breaker. Well, I was in debt when I met my wife. I could spend money as fast as I could earn it. So yeah, I don't view people that have debt as a deal-breaker, but I'm very grateful for a wife that is very into the numbers. We've created buckets that I can spend money from and the buckets don't touch anymore. But yeah, I had a $2,000 Telstra bill that I had paid off while I was working away on the mines. And I just didn't say anything about it. And then as we sort of started, she's like, how can you just leave this sort of stuff? Yeah. So, but yeah, I, look, everyone's got their reasons for where they're at. Lack of ambition. It's not a deal-breaker, but it's trying to speak into that type of person to say, look, man, there's something in there that's gonna get you going. I like to be a bit of a creating atmospheres, speaking into people to say, look, there's something in there you haven't seen yet, but I see it. And I think we see potential in people. They define themselves by who they are. We see people who they're becoming. So we need to help people see that and say, look, I know you see this right now, but I want to show you what I'm looking at. And that's even with my children, all right? My children will think the world is this big and the world's a lot bigger than that. But it's like, you see that the way they tackle things, the way that they do things, there's just so much more to what they're becoming. It's like, just keep going, keep it up. And we need people in our lives that will back us. Absolutely. So, yeah. We'll change, we'll keep the deal breakers theme, but we'll change it to employees. So the people you hire. Yep. Paul Hygiene, how do you deal with that? I'll say, I'll speak it, go and have a shower, put some jota on. There are those conversations you need to have. It's come to work. You don't do it in public. I think there's tact. I think that's what we sometimes miss. It's having those conversations. But again, if you have the relationship, you can have that conversation. So we know if I walked up the street and walked up to someone and said, you stink, it's probably coming with a broken nose. But if you've got a relationship where it's like, hey, man, look, you come in in a Monday morning after your footy wind up, you're a bit, you mind just, yeah, thanks, Mike. No worries, it's, if you have the relationship, you can talk about anything. Yeah, indecisive, employee. Oh, frustrating. I'm very much, like I said, what are we doing? How are we gonna do it? Let's put some structure in place. But if it's continually indecisive, it's, I need to make a decision for you. It's sitting in that state, it's not healthy. Because it leaves you in a state where you're not empowered to make decisions. I think you've got to, within certain markets or certain teams, let them know what their boundaries are and go, hey, look, you can make these sorts of decisions. Not be indecisive in, I'm not sure if I can do this. I'm not sure if I can, well, I get in trouble. So the indecisiveness is not, it frustrates me in decisiveness, but in a person that's helping them understand that they can make decisions and what are the boundaries, those decisions they can make and allowing them to make those decisions and back them up. I love that. Opposite end, their control freak. Depending on where you are in a business, I think you need to respect leadership sometimes. And we will always have that. You might have a parent, might be a mom or a dad. Boundaries would come in again. So in very much in leadership, sometimes as you mature, you don't always have the place to speak at the level you want to speak at. Even though you might have that in there, you've got to earn your stripes. I've learned this hardware in my industry, but also trying to remain respectful as well. I think it's once you come to an understanding that some people just want to be in charge, let them be in charge. That's their role, that's their position. Learning to sometimes just submit to leadership, they're the ones that are leading that part of the business. So you need to learn how to support them in a way that also keeps the relationship, but doesn't undermine you in where you feel that you can go, but nurtures you into the opportunities that can come. You might then look good, that might you look good. End of story. This one can apply for pre-employment, like let's say during the job interview. They trash-talk their ex or their ex-employee. Yep, hate gossip, hate it. If they're talking about them, they're talking about you. It's a judge people by their fruits. Sorry, if you're speaking poorly about someone, I think naturally in life, we're trying to find ways to connect. And we actually connect through vulnerability. Like that's how we build relationships. Now, naturally, I can build a relationship with you through your cameraman and say, did you hear what he did last week? Oh, what can I do? Oh, mate, he did this. It's like we are building a relationship through his vulnerability. That's not for me to share, you know? And I think naturally in the way that we gossip and share this sort of stuff, there's no depth to us. Because I'm sharing something about the cameraman, we're not actually getting to know each other. And it destroys this. And what we're actually really craving is that ability to connect on a deeper level, which we can't because we've actually just thrown someone onto the bus. How do you help an employee who's suffering from low self-esteem? Low self-esteem, get alongside them. Just sometimes it's just your presence. People in, even in the whole mental health, resilience sort of thing, low self-esteem comes from a feeling of value and worth. It's how I view myself. Now, whether that's the way that they think or the agreement system they have, the way they think, the way that they feel, the way they act, the way they behave, who they become, character, blah, blah, blah, legacy and all that, you can actually rewire that back the way. So if someone, you can see someone with low self-esteem, it's because of the way they're thinking. All right, that's the way they feel, sorry. It's the way that they think. So the way that you change the way someone thinks is you change their culture. Culture is the habits of the people. So if you can get around them and actually walk with them, support them, sometimes it's just what they need to get out of that because like things like darkness brings darkness. And if you are carrying something and you're the kind of person that doesn't need something from them, but you can carry them, walk with them, spend time with them, time, as my mom said, time, love is about T-I-M-E. People have a low self-esteem because they don't feel valued. And sometimes it's our job not to pull people down, which the world does, it basically fights for titles and egos. But to come alongside people and say, I mean, I see you, I see you like an avatar. I see you, can I walk with you? You don't need to give them the solutions, but just the fact that when you see opportunities to say, hey, I noticed the other day you did that really, really well. Oh, thanks. They might have a narrative where it's like, you're this, you're crap, you're ugly, you're useless, you're dumb. That is a narrative that brings a low self-esteem. Now, if you can bring them to a sense of belonging and they can come around your tree and go, I mean, I love spending time with this guy. He builds me up, doesn't pull me down. It's not bitter, it's sweet. We have that responsibility. Whether you're an educator or a teacher, it's like, speak into people. Our motto on the back of our shirt is speak life. You can speak death or life. It's in the power of the tongue. Would you say the same thing applies for someone with a hot temper? Hot temper? The anger? Yeah, I used to have a very hot temper. Very much, I was a, I would say a rager, but I was very much in my early days, it was get out of the way. I wrote arrogance about me. And when you start to see yourself in others, you don't like it. So I'm not answering your question directly, but when becoming a dad, it becomes like, what do you model? And you can't do that by what you say. You do it by what you do. It's a monkey see a monkey do. So when you start to understand yourself better, you start to understand other people better. So it's like a deep calls to deep. So when people have a hot temper, yeah, there is a part of me that does fire up where it's like, hey, that's not cool, man. It's not necessary because it creates a fire to fly. But it's part of learning. It's part of growing up in the industry. Look, whether I've got home at six o'clock when I should have been home at five o'clock and I didn't tell my beautiful wife, Beck, that I'd be home and she's got dinner there or I was meant to pick up the kids and she's got a hot temper. I'm like, I need to learn my place and shut my mouth and say, that's my bad. Yeah. Yeah. What advice would you give to an employee who feels like they're not connecting because they don't have the same humour as the team? Well, it does take a maturity of the leadership to know that we're all different. I use a lot of humour. I usually use it to break down walls, to make people feel comfortable because we need to relate. But it doesn't mean that they're not part of the group. As you start to deliver through people, you've got to learn that everyone has their place. And I learned this the hard way and the right way. But not everyone fits your mould. But I said, that's the beauty of having a business where everyone's different because there are things that they bring that you can't. All right? I'm not a righty, righty person. I'm a doer, I'm a talker, I'm a facilitator, I'm a go-getter. But those sorts of attributes that come with people that are a little bit introverted, it's making them feel like they're still part of the group without excluding them for the humour. So I think coming alongside them and find stuff that's not humour is that you can connect with on their level. It makes you still relatable and understanding. How do you help an employee who is a poor communicator? A poor communicator? Well, I mean, you've got your DM section in the use verb, but as a leader, as an operator, as someone who's been through different industries, someone who has what it takes, but they either don't receive your communication as well as you'd like, or they don't express... My communication? Yeah, or both sides. Well, you've got to define what, as an employee, you've always got to define what good looks like. You've got to define success. You've got to say, this is what I want. If you give them a task, they'll do the task, but never deliver the outcome. And that's where a lot of frustration comes from. It's like, well, I did what you told me to do. A quick story is my son. I'll say, go and grab your washing out of the laundry and put it in your room. Guess where he puts it? At the door. I'm actually saying, grab your washing, put it in your room, put it away, in the right drawers and fold it. Now, he has an understanding that is limited to what he knows, but what I should have said, hey man, can you take your washing and go and put it in your drawers and put it away, please? But he's done exactly what I've asked. Now, sometimes being a bad communicator is a reflection of how you communicate. And if you don't open up the channels to receive information and be open to feedback, and some of the questions I always used to ask my one-on-ones in my past life and even with the team I have now is, what's one thing I'm doing well? What's one thing you like me doing? What's one thing I can improve on? What's one thing I can do for you? And it really creates that space which is safe for people to say, do you know what? One of the guys who sat my old job, you always come down the workshop and just like, we need this done, we need this done. And it's like, well, we have our time to get things done. But what I'm seeing is I'm walking into something that they've just come in from a shift, they've just come in from outside. I'm not seeking to understand. I'm being direct. So if we don't understand how to build that relationship and work with it, we're not machines. We're not pieces of equipment. We're not procedures, we're not machines. It's like, hey, how are we going with that work today? How are you going with this? And opening up those channels where we can talk. Communication is that. It's being open to say, oh, well, that's what I thought. And being open enough to say I was in the wrong. Forgiveness is one of the most powerful things to just say to someone, all right, there was a misunderstanding. I didn't mean that. And I've learned this throughout my whole career, but learning to let go of that and hand that back to say, I'm not going to hold on to this because it creates a lens on how you see people. Whenever you, let's say I leave the door open all the time, every time I walk in a door, what are you looking at? Does Michael shut the door? As we grow, whatever we've come to learn in the life and the experiences that we have, that's what shapes us. And if we don't have a level of greater understanding for people, we will continue to look at people of what they lack. Instead of what potential they have. So communication is so important, just being able to have an understanding of this is where the relationship's at. This is your place, this is my place, and these are the boundaries, even in a marriage. I've always said to my wife, it's for better or worse. So having that foundation, we can talk quite openly about stuff without the fear of where it might go or what are we doing in our relationship. But making time to connect with your employment force, making time to speak to people that speak into you, whether it's a mentor, whether it's a leader, make time for the people that invest into your lives or shape you and be open to that feedback. Otherwise, you might get a rude awakening when it isn't the way that it seems. Love that. And that's a good little outro there on the positive. Yeah, some solid advice at the end and hopefully we can use some of that for the content. A lot of extended answers, which is always good. But yeah, I love the in-depth examples that you give, which is always good. Thank you. And for everybody else listening to this on the 16th of October, 2023, if you're listening from the future, check out useverb. How good is their Formula One racing team going? How good is that? Daniel Ricciardo, I hope you're still young enough to drive. And yeah, check out all their things. It's in the description. Leave some love, whether it's for me, whether it's for Mike, useverb or whatever else. We really appreciate it. And always thanking Bright Tank for covering the podcast. Shout out to you guys. And look forward to doing a lot more with the useverb in the future. Absolutely. I think you're coming in next week. Probably. Thank you. No worries. All right, guys. See you. Thank you.