 I'd like to, first of all, introduce my guests here. We're talking about the increase in home demolitions in areas of the West Bank. And this is what my panelists will be discussing. Amira Haas is a journalist with the Israeli newspaper Haaretz. She's the only Israeli journalist who lives full-time in Ramallah. Israeli Jew. Israeli Jew. The many Israeli Jews. Yes, that's true. Or Palestinians, isn't it? She's the only Israeli Jewish journalist who lives in Ramallah full-time. She's widely considered an expert on human rights issues in the occupied territories. This is Karim Shabran. He works with the Israeli NGO that's called Betzelim. He's the director of their field workers. And he's the one who's responsible for his field workers document the process of the home demolitions. And he'll be talking about that as well. I'm going to start with you, Amira. I just wanted to, for the audience, not everyone is familiar with all of the details. Can you explain what Area C is, who lives there, and where it is? Area C comprises around 61% of the West Bank, the Palestinian West Bank. This is an artificial division of the West Bank. It has nothing to do with geography or the needs of the people, the needs of the original population. It was constructed during the Oslo talks. And it was an attempt to designate a gradual Israeli military redeployment from the West Bank. Redeployment, not withdrawal. So at first, the Israeli army redeployed and left its forces out from the cities, which were defined as Area A, where Palestinian Authority has full civilian control and has policing authorities. Not security authorities, but policing authorities. Its policemen can go armed. This is Area A. Area B is where Palestinian hold civilian authorities, as in Area A, where they can have planning, where they can issue construction permits, et cetera. But they don't have policing authorities. Any police there, Palestinian police, needs coordination with the Israeli military authorities. And Area C is where Israel retains its authorities, both civilian and security and military, and policing authorities. The idea was that within five years after the signing of this agreement in 1994, so by 1998, 1999, this should have been actually this division, artificial division, should have been actually obliterated. And that the great majority of area of the West Bank would have passed to the full authority of Palestinians in terms, at least in terms of civilian authority. That is where you can develop, issue permits, issue change, designation of areas, et cetera. But what happened is that, as very often, that the temporary became permanent. And since the last redeployment in 1999 or at the beginning of 1999, I think it was, it remained that 61% of the West Bank are under full Israeli civilian control. Anyway, everything is under Israeli military control. But the civilian control is what we are talking about today, because this is concerning, issuing, planning, having master plans, allowing people to build, allowing people to develop, to invest, to have economical projects. This is where everything is still in the hands of Israel. Now, 60% were, which is mostly vacant. I mean, the majority of West Bank empty land, not yet inhabited, is there. So how many, there's about 2.5 million Palestinians living in the West Bank, right? Including Jerusalem, yes. And how many live in areas? So in areas, see, there have been some difficulties in assessing, because the census did not include areas, see the Palestinian census did not include areas, see as such. But a recent UN study, a solo study, found out that there are around 300,000 people living there, though 90,000 live in communities, which are 100% in area C. The rest live in area, in neighborhoods, which are adjacent to the same localities or communities, but who have, are in area A and B. Because again, as I wanted to say, area C is a completely, C is a completely artificial designation. It has nothing to do with people's organic development and the organic development of Palestinian communities. So you could live in a house that's in area C and have that in area B or vice versa. Yes, vice versa. And how many Jewish settlers live in area C? So now, yeah, so area C has become, of course, area C is where the settlements are, and the great majority of Israeli military positions. And they are close to today, they are close, I mean, we assume that there are around between 350,000 to 400,000 Israeli settlers, and there are about 200,000 in Jerusalem. Okay, so this is mostly the area that's on the Israeli side of the separation barrier. Not necessarily, no, not at all, not at all. Many of the settlers, many of the settlers are on the Eastern side, and of course, I do not acknowledge the separation wall as a border, it is not, and it is not meant to be, I mean, if it is security. So I don't consider this as a start. As a start, I don't consider it as a legitimate, even in a designation, but no, but the great majority of settlers are on the, anyway on the Eastern side of the wall. So you have seen over the last, recently, you've seen an increase in home demolitions. The Israeli army has carried out home demolitions for a long time. What's changed, and how has the number increased, and who's being evicted? You know, we said home demolitions, and the argument is that, yes, of course, it's illegal because people build houses or homes, or very often it is shacks and tents, or even cisterns to collect water. We're not talking about wells, digging wells for drilling, but water, systems to collect water, rainwater. Which they have to apply for permission to build, is that right? Yes, but once you don't have a master plan, you cannot apply for a permit. The Israeli authority don't have a master plan, I see. So the Israeli authorities who are in charge of the area, and have been in charge since 67, developed dozens of master plans for Israeli settlers. But they did not develop advocate master plans for Palestinians inhabitants. And this is the reason, this is the official reason why when people build, because also Palestinians have a natural population growth, their population increases, but they don't get the permits to build advocately. So you need, also needs are changing. For example, Bedouin communities or semi-nomad communities, maybe 60 years ago they didn't send their girls to school. Now they do, and the girls want to study. So they want to have schools, they want to have clinics, they want to have light, so to read and to prepare for their schooling. So they cannot. And they cannot. They cannot get permission for infrastructure for connecting to the electricity. So what happens if you see a settlement, all lit up, and nearby you have some tents and shacks that have been there, where the people have been there for 50, 60, 80 years before the settlement. And they need to operate a generator two hours per day because more would be too expensive for them. So you've noticed like a visible, like a remarkable increase in the pace of demolitions. Some of us, yes. Since when, when did that start? We could say that since 2010, there is an increase in the issuing in the number of demolition orders. And there is increase with slight fluctuations in the execution of demolition orders in certain places, in those places. Also, the change that we have noticed is that if, until a few years ago, okay, the Israelis would come and the smoke is a civil administration, would come and demolish two or three constructions in each community. Now they target entire communities. So they demolish the structures of the entire community. Another increase, very, very tangible, is the bedroom communities. There are many bedrooms in the area. Most of them, if not all, were actually expelled from Israel proper in the 50s, in the 1950s. So their status is refugees, 1948 refugees. Then they wandered with their sheep and everybody to the West Bank. When Israel came in 67, they had for some years, they could, they remained where they were located. But slowly, slowly their movement was restricted either by designation of a great part of the Jordan Valley, for example, as military zone, military training zone, also in south of Hebron, military and then military and then all natural reserves areas so that the Bedouins could not go there with their sheep. And with time, they, okay, they found some locations and they, as respect to their traditions, they cannot be people from different tribes. They each tribe and each clan has to be on its own. And they are about, we assume, around 90 such communities, between 90 to 109 such communities. And in the last, in the West Bank and mostly in Area C. And in the last years, it is clear that the Israeli authorities intend to dislocate all those communities, Bedouin communities against their will and to regroup them and settle them in semi-urban neighborhoods, which contradict their style of life and which are very near the A and B zone. So they're pushing them into. They are pushing them, clearing the Area C, clearing it. And not by accident, always these Bedouins are near an Israeli settlement. So just, and in some cases, the settlements are involved in the petitions against those very communities. So there comes a settlement such as Faridumim and there has already petitions three times to High Court demanding to demolish a nearby Bedouin community, which is there, of course, in 20 years from before the settlement itself. And including its school. It has a very known school made of tires. And there is environmental initiatives. And the settlement demands to demolish all the shacks and the tents, including this school for around 150 or 180 children, mostly girls. And we see this is in the increase and there is more chutzpah to the demands. To the demands, to the demands. There is an Israeli right-wing advocacy group called Regavim, intended for the protection of the nation's land. They, of course, claim that all land, which has no direct private owners, is Jewish land, everywhere in the country, between the river to the sea. And they have engaged in the last years in pushing the civil administration to materialize, to execute the already demolition orders which has been issued over the years and were not carried out. So you have an increase that you had before. So they are pushing both the civil administration and the legal system and high court. So before I move on to ask Karim a couple of questions, I just want to clarify that some of the demolition orders that were sort of lying fallow for many years are suddenly being executed. Is that right? Yeah, because usually people went to the escort of lawyers, lawyers petitioned against the demolition. And the high court, except the high court issued actually injunctions that froze the situation. High court did not challenge Israeli policies of discriminatory policies of developing for Israelis and not developing for Palestinians. It has not addressed this problem, principal problem, but it froze the situation. Okay, they would freeze them. Like it postponed the decision till later. But now the interference of Rigaweem, yeah, and also the wish of some judges to get rid of the pile of petitions that they had, unclosed petitions. This came together. And also high court is now demanding Palestinians to exhaust Halitim. Yeah, they're legal procedures. The legal procedures. And to request the permit for construction. But you cannot request the permit for construction because there is no master plan. Okay, I'm gonna come back to the legal issues. I'm Karim, you're the one who's supervising these field workers. They're the ones who are out with their video cameras and they're documenting what's going on. What I'd like you to do is just give us, first of all, we'll start with just one example of a specific village or a specific family that was targeted by a demolition. Who are they? What happened to them? I will take an example from the last three days. Before three days, we had a few demolitions in the Jordan Valley area, an area which called Hamsa. The whole community, there are 12 structures. It became a demolition. Next to Hamsa, there is another site which is called Karzalea. Karzalea, they live there, one extended family. Three brothers, each one with his kids, one of them, Zohar, which they demolished yesterday for two days for him. He had six kids. He lived with his wife, Nihat, and their six kids and his old father and his old mother. The area of Karzalea, it's in the north of the West of the Jordan Valley area. In order to reach Karzalea, you have to drive in a very broken road, in a jeep 4x4, in order to reach the site, more than 40 minutes. Between the hills, they are located there. In a very small piece of land, a plain piece of land, they used to leave the three families together, one next to the other. Before three months, for the first time they came, the Israeli army came and they demolished all the structures there. They became without a roof for two days. Later they bring tents and they rebuilt their tents. The second time, the army came and demolished their structures. For the second time, they rebuilt. The third time, they came and they demolished after one week, all the structures. Then they rebuilt, but this time they rebuilt their houses separated. Each one, each family, they hold one of the hills around. And in the beginning, they were very isolated in this area. Now they became more isolated because the distance between the families became hundreds of meters, each family in the top of the hill. And the closest one to the axis was Zuhair. For two days, they came and they demolished for Zuhair his tent and the structures there. And Zuhair became without any place to live. These families, they have no water. They are not connected to the water in it work. And they used to have a pipe from a spring close to them. In the first demolitions, they cut the pipes. So now they don't have a water. And in order to have water, they have to carry... Pockets. Yeah, and to bring the water. And imagine, these families, they are Shabbat families. They have hundreds of goats, heads of goats. So imagine how can they manage their life in such as conditions. Not only in Homsa and Kersalia, the demolitions, in Jawaana, which is the area next to Nablus, Shchem, in the southeast of Shchem. Also, they demolished eight structures. And when we talk about the structures, we talk about families, we talk about kids, we talk about people living from shabbaring. So they have a goats. So even the goats, the small goats, when the previous demolitions in Kersalia, they died and we have pictures and we're filming. In one of the demolitions, cow baby. Calf male. Yeah, killed under these demolitions. So the demolitions affect the life of the people and even the animals in these areas. So you've filmed these incidents. You have videos and other evidence? We try to document, we used to document all the by writing reports, printing out reports. But at the last few years, we start the visual documentation. We have more than 200 cameras distributed in the field with the Palestinian volunteers. They document all these, the settlers' violence against them. They document also the demolitions from time to time. So we have documented the films. But many times when they, the question of the demolitions, the families, they are not, they don't have time to use the camera in order to document the demolition against themselves. They are, they want to package their things. They want to hold their kids. They want to protect their animals. So many times we didn't succeed to film things happening in the ground, except if our field researchers reach the area and we have documentations, a few. But we have also to think about the pain of the people at that time, which they cannot think about the camera and cannot think about the documentation, which is difficult for them. So I have two questions for you. The first one is, can you explain, do these families receive any advance notice before the soldiers come to destroy their homes? Usually in the Area C, generally, and in the Jordan Valley area, hundreds, thousands of demolition orders, they distribute all the time to these communities. Many communities, they try to apply for building permits, you know, because they give them a time, you have to get a building permit. Either you will be demolished or your house will be demolished. But the problem there, that the people of the areas, they don't have a master plan. And when you apply for the master plan, it became refused from the authorities. And according to the international law, Israel, the occupying power, it's supposed to supply a master plan for the communities. For community planning. Yeah, for example, more than 90% from the applications for a master plan, it became rejected by the Israeli side. And the 10% which is approved, it's only to cover the built-up area of the Palestinians. And I will give you a small example from the Northern Jordan Valley. Village, the name of Giftlik. Giftlik people, they apply for a master plan. The different Israeli organization help them to apply, like BIMCOM, which is an Israeli organization. It's an investment planning organization, yeah. They deal with the planning issues. After a year, they get the master plan of Giftlik. But the master plan of Giftlik, it covered only 60% from the built-up area of the village. But you have to know a few facts about Giftlik, about the master plan of the Giftlik. It covered 590 doughnuts. It divided by four for anchors. Yeah, 400, 590 doughnuts. The population of Giftlik, it's 5,300 inhabitants. In the other side, two kilometers from, or three kilometers from Giftlik, we have an Israeli settlement, which is called Mosqueot. The master plan of Mosqueot, it covered 690 doughnuts. That means 100 doughnuts, more than the master plan of Giftlik. But you have to know that the inhabitants of Mosqueot, there are only 200. So in the planning issues between the Palestinians and the Israeli settlers in the side area C, they took the future needs of the Mosqueot for planning zones, for schools, for everything. But when the planning come to the Palestinians, it's just the built-up area without any opportunity for the developing in the future of these communities. Another small example about the applications of the permits, according to the statistics given from the civil administration between the year 2000 and 2012, the Palestinians applied in the area C for 3,700 building permits. They get only 211. That time, the Israeli side supplied more than 15,000 building permits for the settlements in the area C. So Amir, you have this incredible disparity that Karim just described, and you have this visible increase in demolitions of Palestinian homes and infrastructure. And you've talked about the courts just wanting to clear the files and just push through the bureaucracy. Are there, has there been any official statements of policies on the Israeli authorities why they're pushing Palestinians toward area B? No, that's exactly where they say we abide by the law and they don't disclose what is behind this policy. For example, I asked as a journalist, I asked the civil administration how many communities they have demolished since the end of 2012, and they told me we do not demolish communities. We are only abiding by the law and demolishing houses which were built illegally. So they even refused to. But we have, after so many years of following and scrutinizing and seeing Israeli policies on the ground, we have the right to analyze it and not just to wait for secret documents to be released or when they are released. And since it's obvious, like when you have the settlements on the one hand and actually these policies, these discriminatory policies are the mirror image of the settlements. Because while you expand the settlements, you expand them on Palestinian land. So you don't allow Palestinians to develop in their own land in order for settlements to expand over there. And so I feel 200% confident to tell there is a very, the Israeli intention is to make this to guarantee that there are as few Palestinians as possible in this area. So that they'll be able to annex it to Israel not only de facto as it is today, but the euro. There is a story about this high of, mid-official in the mid-level official at the Israeli civil administration who spoke with a UN person, I won't mention who. And he wanted to share with him a joke. He said, oh, do you know what is ABC? A is Arafat. So the area belongs to Arafat. B is for Balagan. Balagan in Hebrew is a lot of mess. It's very messy because you have Israeli control over security and police and Palestinian control over administrative and civilian affairs. And C, he said, C is for shalanu, ours in Hebrew. Never heard that one. Yeah, so this is a joke, but a joke which conveys what they really think about the reality. And indeed in several places that I interviewed people whose homes were demolished, they told me that they spoke when the soldiers came and tore down their tents or shacks. They asked them, so where do you want us to go to? What shall we do? And the soldiers told them very candidly, go to area A or go to Arafat. So it's also one of the things that I've learned as a journalist over the years. I always learn much more from the lower echelons than from the higher echelons because they know how to camouflage the intentions. The lower echelons say what they hear in the corridors or from there directly. They hear it and they say it frankly. And indeed in many of these places it's a very sad phenomenon. You go to villages where Israel does not, which Israel does not allow to develop and to build. And the young youngsters leave it. They go indeed to area A because they cannot, for example, there is this village Navisamuel. The old constructions, the old building there from dating back hundreds of years tell that there has been an ongoing Palestinian or ongoing inhabitants for hundreds of years. The place was conquered in 67, then in 71 then there was no Bethlehem and no High Court. The Israeli forces came and demolished the houses and old constructions, very beautiful. They demolished the houses and told the people to just leave. Luckily, so the people moved 200 meters away to some other constructions of the building which belonged to people of the village which belonged to people who had fled after 67. So they actually went to houses which they do not own and that's where they live till today. But the Israelis do not allow them to develop and to build there in thousands of tricks. One of them is to declare the whole area as nature reserve zone. So they are not even allowed to plant a tree in their own yard because they have to ask for a permit for this because the natural reserve zone. So that's where people have left young people. For years they lived together with their families in two rooms but now the kids grew up. They cannot be anymore together in the same room or two families in the same and same two rooms house and people are living to another place. Because they can't marry. A part of other, yeah, a part, they get married. I started the case where a guy got married and because it is now an isolated village and it is in between the fence, something very, in a zone that became completely, almost 100% empty of Palestinians and it is one of those zones that has been de facto annexed to Israel near the settlements of Givad Ze'ev and others, Givon. He is not able to bring his wife home. Like because she needs, because they go through a checkpoint and they need to write their names and they created such a bureaucracy that if you are not one of the place, it takes ages until your name is registered as checkpoint so that you can enter the village. You need a husband needs a permit for his wife to come to her home and he does not, which he doesn't get. Okay, so you have, yeah. Just to forget, Amira, the school, the school of the, no, no, the school of the village of Nebsumor, in the Jordanian time, they had a very small school, just one room, only one room. They applied many times to get more than rooms in order to serve the kids of the village. They didn't get any permits. So now they have four groups, the first class, second class, third class, fourth class in the same room and the teachers get this group 10 minutes, this group 10 minutes, this group 10 minutes and by that way they learn the kids because they cannot go if they want to go to learn in the next village, which is about 10 kilometers or 15 kilometers, they have to bring a car. It's very complicated. So the kids in the early age, they have to learn in this school and four classes in the same room. That's the school of the village. One room school, house for grades one through four. And before they close the area, before actually the village has been encircled by checkpoints, okay, the kids could go to nearby villages and study and learn there. But now in order to get to a village which is maybe 10 minutes distance in walking, now they have to make a detour which takes them about half an hour in driving in order to get. So these are, and this is a very strategic zone for Israel and the intention is clear. I mean, you don't, the intention has been there since long before Oslo, but it is done in a very incremental way so that you see and then you talk about legality. Okay, so actually I wanna ask you about legality. I mean, let's say a Palestinian, first of all the situation that you two have described is obviously untenable and it's impossible to live like that. It's very unjust. Someone's house is being demolished. They want to take this to the legal, they want legal recourse. Do they have legal recourse? Can they hire an Israeli lawyer and go to a court? Of course, but the question should not start there. The basis is that we have two legal systems, one for Jews, one for Palestinians. Living in both living areas. Yeah, in this, so in the West Bank you have, so any one of you who is Jewish here in this room, you can immediately, you can decide tomorrow to emigrate to Israel and you can live in area C and get full rights in area C. As a citizen of Israel. You can get as a citizen of Israel and even as a visitor or even as a temporary resident, you can go and live in any settlement in the West Bank, have water, have electricity, have all kinds of subsidies, enjoy the roads, enjoy everything if you are a Jew. But if you're a Palestinian, Karim for example cannot move and live in area C. He will not be able to, first of all, he's in danger of, if he moves to area C, he will lose his status as a resident of Jerusalem. And if you were not, if you were from the Ramallah, if you are in Ramallah, and even if you have your private land in area C, you cannot build there because you know you are subject to Israeli restrictions. So this is where it starts, that the legal legality is from the start one set of laws for Jews, which allows them development and the other one which restricts development of the Palestinians. So actually I'd like to ask you briefly, Karim, when you're doing your field work as a Palestinian resident of East Jerusalem, when you're traveling around area C, has it ever happened that you were accompanied by a Jewish Israeli colleague and you had a confrontation with Israeli soldiers? Did they treat you differently in those cases? I mean, it's a bit loud. All the time we are moving in the field with my colleagues from the video department, from the different departments in the organization. We became stopped in the checkpoints from time to time. Sometimes there are demolitions and we want to reach the demolition area. They prevent us from entering there. We stop us until they finish their work there, which is the demolitions. But not more than that. We have, at least, because I hold an Israeli ID card. Maybe it's a privilege for me that I'm a Jerusalem resident and I have the Jerusalem ID card, which is the Israeli ID card, so I can move more free than my colleagues, my team, for example, the 11 field researchers, which they are from the West Bank, they cannot enter our office in Bethlehem, in Jerusalem. In many places they cannot move and their movement is all the time restricted. But as a Jerusalem resident, as Amira mentioned, if I live outside the municipality borders of Jerusalem, they confiscate my right to return back to Jerusalem and to live in Jerusalem again. I have an American brother now, he live in Houston. When he get the American citizenship, they confiscate his ID card. And now when he came to the country, he came as a visitor, as a tourist, and not as a guy who was born there, and his father and his grandfather, born there, and he have a house there. He cannot live in his house. He has to visit his own country where he's a tourist. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, visa, tourist visa, which is a very sad situation to worry all the time. And it's the situation of thousands of Palestinians inside East Jerusalem, which they live all the time under the fear that they will lose their legal status inside the East Jerusalem. They live outside the municipality of Jerusalem. So all the time they have to hold papers, papers, papers in order to prove that you are existing here and you are in this city. If you don't have these papers, these bills from the telephone, from the water, from the Arnona, which is the municipal tax, you will lose your ID card, you will lose your place in your old city. So you've become stateless twice over? Of course. Right. So we're going to, I just wanted to ask you if we can, before we move on to questions, I'm going to bring Anat in to talk about the, but in a minute, but I just wanted to talk first about what we discussed yesterday, which is the disparity in resource allocation between Jewish settlements and Palestinian villages in the area C in terms of water, for example. If you can talk a little bit about that. The main resource of course is water and electricity and because there are no master plans, most of the Palestinian communities in area C are not connected to the electricity and the authorities refuse to connect them. Then the water, the same goes with water. So you have about, you see those communities, those 90, those 90, around 270 communities which are solely in area C and with 90,000 people, you see that they depend on cisterns, on rain, rain, collecting of rainwater and as their ancestors did a hundred years ago, or they bring water in tanks. First they pay. Yes. For the which they pay about four times because they pay for the solar, for the fuel they pay more than they pay for the water. Or sometimes when there is a very, in a merciful situation in some places there was some good Israeli military commander some 30, 40 years ago, they can go to a nearby pipe which brings water to a settlement and they don't have to go miles in order to bring water but only a few meters away like Bir El-Aid. But nearby you see the settlement. So first when you go, those of you have not been there, first you have to imagine that you see a lush community of okay, even new houses, but it's always lush, there is always green, there is always trees and even if not the swimming pool then the water is the sprinkles everywhere. And nearby you see how a community of shacks and tents without any water. The statistic differs, I mean statistic differs, it can be as mostly in those Jordan Valley communities you can have around 400 liters per day per person when it's a settler and around 20 to 30 or 40 to a Palestinian liters per day which is much below the minimum. What is the minimum actually? The minimum, the human minimum varies between I think 80 to 100. A day? Yes, a day. You have very hot climate and these are also agrarian people. Of course, yes. So in one of the stories that I covered, I went to one of those villages, Anel Beda that used to have seven springs before 67. They used to have seven springs in their village. The Jordan Valley is rich with water and that was from the start what the Israeli meant to do is to drill there and to drill water and to have wells which give water to the Israeli settlements and that's what they did. So they had to deal with the village that instead of the spring water which dried because of the drilling they would get the same quantity from the Israeli company. Water company. With time the quantities go down but also the people increase so they need more water and they do not get as much as they... And they cannot cultivate any more, they are filled. You can see that with every plot you have one plot which is cultivated but always very crops that do not need much water like cabbage. And nearby, and then some plots are dry because they cannot afford, they don't have the water. And nearby you have area that has been confiscated by the settlements and has bananas which need a lot of water. And it's so striking. And there is really side by side. And side by side, you know, you go and then you see the orchards also, the oranges and the same thing, the oranges need a lot of water and I know, I mean, I checked but of course. Yes, it belongs to a settlement, not to a Palestinian. Side by side, you know, meter to one meter here, one meter there. And this is so striking, this is so infuriating and I as an Israeli Jew, I'm filled with shame to see this discrepancy. I knew it in Gaza when I lived in Gaza and I know it today in the West Bank. I live where I live, it's not area C but where I live in the West Bank, in Elbire. In summer we don't have enough water so we have to save water in summer. And just a few, one kilometer away is the settlement of Betel and I see the difference. And there it's full. This is the policy of such blatant discrimination and double standards that accompanies us and is at the basis of all the problems that we discussed and maybe Kerry has not discussed it, but this is at the bottom of all this conflict. Okay, and then we'll move to another. Yeah, sure. When we talk about the water issues, even the Palestinians, which they live in area A and area B, which is supposed to be under the full Palestinian control, they get their supplies of water by Muqarot. It's controlled by the Israeli side. So in the summer time, all the Palestinian cities, which under the full control of the PA, they suffered from lack of water and in many cases, they get water once or a week or once or two weeks. So it's very important that it's not the only Palestinians which suffered from lack of water in area C and according to one of our reports from 2010 about the Jordan Valley, we discovered by statistics getting from Muqarot and from different resources that the 10,000, even less than 10,000 settlers living in the Jordan Valley area, they concern a third of the total concern of the 2.5 million Palestinians, the 10,000, they get one third of the water. One third of the water. But this is actually, this is Palestinian water, like any taste Palestinian water. Just the two. Yeah, I mean, I know I was, I've been in Bethlehem in the summer time when they just didn't have water for eight, 10 days at a time, turned the tap on and nothing comes. Okay. Do we have a microphone for Anat? She's, okay. So Anat is, this is Anat Sir Agusti. She's the director of the Petzalem office here, the Petzalem USA office here in Washington, DC. And she's just going to speak about a new initiative they're undertaking. Thank you, Lisa. And thank you, everybody. Do you hear me? Great. Okay, Petzalem basically is a human rights, Israeli human rights organization that collects information and monitor and data and issue reports on the status of the human rights of the Palestinian occupied territories. And here in Petzalem USA, we decided to take the issue of home demolitions as our main issue for this coming year. And why is that so? First of all, because there is an increase, a dramatic increase, a significant increase in home demolitions in the last two, three years that we monitored and we have all the data and statistics about it. And the issuing of new demolition orders in the West Bank. So this is one reason why we took this. The other reason is that, you know, everybody speaks about status quo. There is no status quo. Things are happening on the ground as we speak. So even if they freeze, quote, unquote, the expansion or the building of the settlements, things on the ground are happening. And this is very much regard to the home demolitions. Because the home demolitions issue is the mirror issue of the settlements. And nobody speaks about home demolitions. And when people speak about home demolitions, usually they tend to do it on a humanitarian framing. It is a humanitarian framing. I mean, a family that their home has been demolished, it's in a humanitarian case. I'm not arguing that. But it's also something more than that. Because it's a system. And it's a systemic issue. Because it's not only one family here and one family there that their home has been demolished. There is an intention, as Amira said, there is an intention to confiscate or to annex or to free more and more lands for the settlements to expand. So when Israel expands the settlements, it comes from somewhere. It doesn't, it's not done in a vacuum. So it goes on the same line as the home demolitions or the evacuation of communities. When you see, when we see the evacuation of communities, that it's in very strategic areas that they want to expand the settlements there. So it's very important for us as Bethlehem to point this out so people will understand when they speak about the settlement what it means. It's not Israel vis-a-vis the Americans. There is a context that these things are happening. So this is our framing. And the fact that Israel is now trying to reframe everything into the legal framework is very tricky because they demand the Palestinians to provide evidence of their ownership of the land on an individual basis. But this is also a systemic issue. It's not individual. And they demand the Palestinians to prove that they paid taxes to the Ottomans, you know, in the beginning of the 20th century to prove their ownership of the land. This is only one method. And everybody knows that the Israeli legal system is very strong. It's very credible. There is a huge process there. So everything is done in a very orderly manner. But it's nothing there is orderly. So this is what important for us, you know, to highlight, you know, the other more dark picture of the broader, let's say, reality in the West Bank and in the, you know, conflict, so to say, between the Israelis and Palestinians, it's more of an occupation. And this is what the occupation is made of, these issues. So it was very important for me to clarify this and, you know, to put the framework of what we are doing here in the U.S. And our goal is, you know, at the end of the day to call for a moratorium on home evolutions. As long as Israel doesn't provide alternative to Palestinians, doesn't provide master plans, doesn't allocate lands for the development of Palestinian public services, et cetera, et cetera, public needs, they should be stopped to demolish homes and evacuate communities. This is our goal here. And we would like each and every one of you, you know, you can approach us and we can supply any information and that you will need. Thank you. Thank you, Lisa. Thank you. I'd like to open up for questions now. Please. Just wait for the mic, sorry. My name is Daniel Narenberg, I'm a PhD student at George Washington University. I just came back from doing research in the West Bank. I came here with the book States of Denial. I noticed that somebody else has it here, so it's obviously relevant to this topic. And one of the stories in here is this apocryphal story of someone who goes to a British civil servant and asks him whether British policy in the Middle East is ignorance or indifference. And his answer is, I don't know and I don't care. And both of you have to deal with and choose to deal with the Israeli public, either through media or through human rights organizations. And I'm wondering what the reaction is from the Israeli public. Do you find that there are people that you can communicate with or are there particular strategies you use to reach out to a very stubborn society that is probably, well, fairly unwilling to look at some of these issues and to take them seriously? So the question is, are Israelis, are Israelis aware and do they respond? Yeah, they're aware and then if they're not, how do you reach out to them or what are the strategies that you found are effective? Well, Amir, are you right about this for the Haaretz newspaper? How many people read, how many Israelis read Haaretz newspaper? I guess it's a secret that my paper would not like me to... No, it's not a secret, I can tell you. You can tell. Only seven percent of Israelis who read a newspaper daily read Haaretz. Which doesn't mean they all read what we write about the occupation. Oh, as Camila has turned the page. Yeah, yeah. But you also have the videos. Okay, so tell us. Look, this has been one of my discoveries, of course, of realizations over the past 20 years that I'm covering, actually the occupation, Israeli occupation, is that we have, in Israel, we really enjoy the freedom of speech. We enjoy the right to exercise our right for freedom of speech. An opinion, I can write, but the public doesn't have the obligation, the duty to know and to read. So this is a big difference. And there is willful ignorance. It has not changed since then. And I see it everywhere. I'm here now for five days in Washington. And you see the exploitation and you see the discrimination here in Washington. And it's nothing peculiar. It's nothing unique to Israelis. Let's be clear about that. And you have your own history of discrimination. It's, we have not invented it. So we need tricks, you know, like as a journalist, I would need tricks. So I have, with my editors and myself, we look for an interesting headline or something which is catchy. And so is, but Salem has a genius program of several years to give to around, to more than 200 volunteers all over the West Bank, cameras, video cameras, in places of friction with both the army and the settlers. And everything that we have been writing, including but Salem, and people did not believe us because there is no proof. So you know Palestinians are liars. So, and leftists also are liars. So then you get the videos and then all of a sudden, oh, oh, oh, oh, this. So true that now the army says, oh, they have edited and this is an edited film, et cetera, but you see it. It does attract attention for some days, but then the truth is that it dies down. No, but there's videos. So the people, knowledge, you know, when people profit from the situation because we are talking about a reality that the majority of Israelis profit from. I mean, occupation pays is worthwhile for Israelis as it has been, as occupation has been and colonialism has been worthwhile for many others. So as long as this goes on without much harm and you profit, you don't want to know. That's the rule. When you say harm, you mean no physical. No, I don't mean yes. This is not, I mean, where you start to be challenged if you can move to a settlement and then at the same time be admitted all over the world as just another state which belongs to the West and be cherished for all your achievements and science achievements, then you don't feel that there is any harm when you are being criticized for living in a settlement but in practice being hugged even if you live in a settlement and even if you develop that settlement, you continue and you continue not to know. And now there is a generation, so many generations of youngsters who were born into this situation. 30, 40 years ago I could sense some shame among the Israeli politicians and others that this, like if you said that the Palestinian gets one fourth of water or gets less water than an Israeli, they would say, no, impossible. We are not like this. Now, okay, who cares? They don't need more. So now the answer would be they don't need more. And you also hear a shift in the terminology amongst the right wing. Now they're calling it instead of occupied, they call it administered territories. No, this has always been. The administered has always been kind of the euphemism used by Israeli. And even in Haaretz for many years it was said, it was written the administered territory. No, the settlers, look, you see when you go in driving areas, see this is one of the most striking things. The road signs don't give the names of Palestinian villages, they do not exist. They give the road signs of Israel. The smallest Israeli settlement, you have a sign. But you don't have the signs of Palestinian communities. And I have, yes, and this is very striking. This is one of the, so you drive on those huge roads that connect Tel Aviv to Malaifraim, which is a settlement in the Jordan Valley. And you don't have any idea that you already drive outside of Israel, that you are in the West Bank, because all the signs tell you that you are in an Israeli territory. Sure, and in people who live in Malaedonim or Piscata, they say they live in Jerusalem. They live in Jerusalem, yes. And in fact, they don't in Israel. A lot of them say that they don't even know that they live in settlement. They consider themselves, they are not settlers because in a strange way, so people say, oh settlers, there must be all these lunatics who go and run on the hills with the big keepers. But no, settlers is people who live in Jerusalem in Sheikh Jarrah. They are settlers because they are in the sense that they are criminals according to international law, all of them, including, and what happens is that parents force their children to be criminals. The settlers' parents force their children to be criminals. And they teach them, they grow them, they, they, they, they, they are from year to year to grow as criminals. Yes. Sorry, back here with the green scarf. Oh, and then we'll get to you right after that. My name is Allison Glick. And first, I'd like to thank you, Amira, for all the work that you've done all these years. I lived in the West Bank of Gaza in the late 80s during the first Intifada. Around the time you started your reporting and it was, it's just amazing what you've done. And I know it hasn't been easy. And Karim, to you, when I was doing human rights work in Gaza, although you weren't with Bet-Sellem, they were great allies. That's the first thing I wanna say. Amira, to you, you talked about the hallway discussions that you had with lower level soldiers or officials. Could you talk a little bit more about those types of conversations, whether it's with Israelis, with soldiers, with government officials, with Americans, with internationals, to sort of elucidate more what those individuals think. I'm also gonna, yeah, what you talked about, how you can get almost more accurate information of what's really happening by talking to unofficials, let's call them. I'd also like to ask you quickly, if you've read Max Blumenthal's book, Goliath, he spoke about the book here a few months ago, although there was immense pressure to not have him talk here. And Karim, if you could talk about pressure from the government that Bet-Sellem has been under to basically stop or inhibit your work. Bet-Sellem's work. About our work as Bet-Sellem, I don't think that we have pressure, direct pressure to stop our work. We use the Israeli democracy in order to do our work, but there were talks in different standards in the clinic, so there's members from the right about thinking about ways to stop the funding of Bet-Sellem and other human rights organizations, but we didn't feel and see that we are targeted by the pressure. But I will above something from the question which you pointed to, Amira, to get things from the normal people or soldiers or something like that. It's a, before a few months in Hebron, the Israeli army start to build fins in order to divide a road and to give the Palestinians a very, very narrow road and the rest of the road, it used to be for the use of the settlers. So our field researchers, they run there and they start to film that. And one of the soldiers asked Musa, our field researcher, you are not allowed to be here, go back from the narrow area. And Musa start to discuss that why, he told him it's only for the Jewish. This area is for the Jewish, the other area it's for the Arabs. We get this video and we give it to the Israeli media. The Israeli public became shocked from that and in the same day or the next day, the army changed the rules there and they opened the street for the Palestinians. And the mistake of the soldier, which he announced that it solved the problem for the people in the area. So I can give you an example. There is a road that goes out of Ramallah to, you have a way to go out of Ramallah to Jerusalem for those who have permits or those who are Jerusalemites that you have to go through a Kalandya checkpoint, which is usually in the morning very really jammed. So several people prefer those who are allowed to enter Jerusalem, but not West Bank, only Jerusalemites, make a little detour and go, converge with the road of settlers to another checkpoint which is destined for Israelis. You have checkpoints only for Palestinians and you have checkpoints only for Israelis. So they would go with the checkpoint for Israelis. And then it's especially in the morning and now since the settlers, you can count by the, you can see by the number of cars that how the settlers community has grown. Usually in the morning there are traffic jams and settlers get upset and the police gets upset. So for some time every morning at the exit from the Palestinian road, there was a police car checking, stopping the traffic and checking the cars. And you know, you can, they say security, they say that there is for security reasons. But then the flow of settlers' cars continues towards the checkpoint for Israelis. When I suggested it to the authorities that this is in order to free the traffic from Palestinians, I said, oh no, of course not. This is for security reasons. And we all heard that this is for security reasons. Reason says differently and experience says differently. Then a friend of ours from Breaking the Silence who is from an Orthodox family and still an Orthodox Jew, he called me very once, we're very excited. He went to see an old friend who, what can we do, lives in a settlement. He said, believe me, it's the only time and I stayed over during the weekend, but believe me, this is the only, because he had to talk and the young children spoke around the table and they said, you see now there is no traffic, not traffic jams because they are blocking the, so the kids heard it from neighbors, from settlers who were involved in it. At a certain time, I, maybe the last time that I spoke to some commanders who invited me to talk to them. Army commanders. Army commanders, yes. And one of them told me that indeed they were sitting with the police. They talked also about this traffic jam, which is a big issue. And they, the police said, well, this is irritating. How about us forcing all Israeli citizens who are Palestinians to go through Calandia, through the Palestinians only checkpoint and not to go through the Israeli checkpoint? And the commanders told, said, and it was off the record, so don't quote me, the commander said, we had to explain to them why it is illegal that you cannot force an Israeli, but you see it in checkpoint, certain checkpoints for Israelis, how they treat Palestinians who are Israeli citizens and how they treat settlers. Now there is a new checkpoint, which is not new, but it's a checkpoint which has been privatized only recently and it is taken over by an Israeli security company, private company. And there are some mean to everybody who is not a Jew. And we saw that. Or anybody who says that they are coming from Ramallah and not from a settlement, they are very nasty, they put on the side, they have a body search, they search the car. So some people told me, it's on the way to Tel Aviv, some people told me that they prefer now to go through Calandia and not to go through this checkpoint because of the humiliation and the time. So these are the kind of things that you hear. Now what do they think? They think that this they are God-given right to be there, the settlers. They see themselves as people full of values. They were born there, I mean, it's already second and third generation, so they think that they have full right to remain where they are. They don't even think that the same policy which says that, okay, you've been there for so long and it's your right to remain here. The same policy, yes, it just doesn't dawn into them. But they, I mean, they really do think of themselves as sort of the earth. I mean, they're the pioneers. They are pioneers and they are. Don't, it's not me, but somebody who told me who went to Mali-Adomin settlement and was talking to a person and she said, and she told her, frankly, we will never have such a house in Israel proper, or whatever it turns. So people are aware of it, that they have better chances to better housing in these areas. I joined once a group of journalists who was hosted by the settlers council and they were very impressed. The journalists were terribly impressed by the settlements because it has, when you go especially to those semi-collective settlements, you get a sense of old Israel, you know, community and sense of solidarity, internal solidarity. It feels very, for those romantics, it feels very nice. Nostalgic, even. Nostalgic, yes. It feels very, like really the old, old days, Israel of the old days. You have a question in the back. This one's just wait for the mic. Hi, my name is Monica Dorjoy and I just came from the gym. We don't do it, just speak up a little bit. Yes, my name is Monica Dorjoy and I just came from the gym and I'm happy that. You came from where? From the gym. I just came. Welcome. Just a light. I didn't have time today. I just ate a little bit of breakfast. Thank you for your comments. I worked for seven years in the Middle East and I worked for Palestinian Authority but also for Bibi Netanyahu is a friend. Also for? For Israeli. I mean, Bibi Netanyahu is a friend, personal friend of mine. But I worked in international development in the Palestinian for solid waste, different investments, a bank curve. And what I noticed, and I think the new direction is very, very interesting, very subtle. We'll have very long term effects. Because of what happened in the Middle East and I have a comment and a question. What happened in the Middle East, the revolution, Palestinians might lose the right to stay hood, why? Watching the future because there's so many countries in turmoil in the Middle East. Sorry, it's really hard to hear you. It would be very difficult for the Palestinians to have a stay. I think the international conventions, which is a pathway that right now the Israelis have managed to put, it's more to accept as the part of territory. Very, very interesting observation. Just five years down the line. Sorry, can you hear me? Can you hear me? Yeah, a little bit. I lost my voice at the gym. If you could just get right to the question. Yes, and the question, the second question is, being an economist, my number one issue is inflation and in the Middle East, because of the revolution, it's very hard to have a model that will capture it. What's the economic pathway of the GDP? Five years, three years down the line, we correct downwards. We know this from Eastern Europe. And we're not capturing any inflation. Do you see any issues, surprises? You're asking about the Palestinian GDP? No, the inflation. Do you see a fact in the region and what's your own take? Because you're doing your own research. It was very hard to understand your comments and questions because the many words were just swollen, you know, I don't know if it's the... I think inflation having an impact on the Palestinian economy. You cannot relate to the Palestinian economy as a normal economy acting like American or Israeli or British or I don't know. Palestinian economy is captive in Israeli occupation policies. So any such mainstream or I don't know, Wall Street assessment of the Palestinian economy is completely out of touch with reality. You have to ask, what are the obstacles put on the Palestinian economy? And you'll find them. There are many Palestinian obstacles that I could name, but the majority, the main, the most important obstacles are put by Israeli policies. So I mean those policies, for example, like the Israeli society... In 60% of your land, in 60% of your territory, you cannot develop, you cannot do anything. That the products of the Gaza Strip cannot be exported or cannot go out of Gaza to the West Bank. That you don't have freedom of movement. I mean just logical things that I guess the economies of the 18th century would have understood it very clearly that it's impossible to run an economy without these basics. Israeli is controlling and limiting. I think we have one more question. Yeah, back in... Sorry, there's a mic right there. Sorry, hi. My name's Hadar Harris and I direct the Center for Human Rights and Humanitarian Law at American University up the hill. My question is, and I echo the thanks for the important work that both of you, all of you do, but I was glad to hear you mention privatization and how privatization of security services, privatization of water and infrastructure, privatization of so many different aspects of core parts of life, not just in Israel, but also as it relates to the occupation, have an impact. I wonder if you could reflect a little bit on that and also about, you know, I look at it from a legal point of view in terms of accountability and the ability to actually influence through the legal system on private actors as they take over these quasi-governmental roles and how that might open a new dimension of the ability to advocate for accountability where there is, you know, overt discrimination, where there is... where there are clear human rights violations going on. So when you talk about privatization, you mean, for example, the privatization of security and checkpoints, right, which is actually a very important issue. Yeah, and people will miss, you know, people say, oh, in the good times, when the army was there, it was much easier. At least they spoke English. Or Russian, yeah. Go ahead. Look, I think, of course, this privatization is a... you see it especially at the checkpoints and the whole system of checkpoints and the... the world checkpoint is tricky because it's as if it's only for checking, but it's actually for blocking. It's for filtering. And anybody who does not have a permit or it is not a checkpoint for Israelis because Israelis can cross any... without a problem on both directions. I think when it suits... it is a governmental or an official project. When it suits them, it becomes a private... it becomes privatized. It's not that the privatization is the cause of deterioration because the whole system is... it's coming from the head, from the government, so it's a policy. It's not because it is privatized. Yeah, so they have contractors sometimes who demolish the tents. They bring contractors. They are not working... they're not in the payroll of the civil administration. But this is... I don't see it as such a major issue in our... in this reality of occupation. You have tenders which are issued, of course, by the Ministry of Housing. It comes from the top, yeah. But there was an issue recently, I think, with some European organizations wanting to... boycott Israeli architects because they participate in these tenders for building houses in the West Bank, yeah. So there is some influence of this... Sure, and there wasn't... and I don't know if this was... there was a fraction of this, but there was a certain... batch of tenders, the Israeli Ministry of Housing issued, there was a big uproar about it. It was in between Kerry's visits. And one of the conditions of these tenders was that architects, Israeli architects, whenever they have to accept a project in... when they get a project... when they win and they get a project to build or to plan inside Israel, they also have to accept a project in the West Bank in the settlements, which means to oblige them to planning settlements. I didn't check if it's... I mean, I tried and I didn't get the answer if this was canceled or not, if this was revoked or not. But the intention is clear. The intention is to involve as many people as possible in the whole settlement. So basically you can't really separate between Israel proper and the occupied territories when it comes to the economy? No, yes, it's impossible. I mean, I... I get my salary at Bank of Paulin, the Hapualin Bank. And it has so many branches in the West Bank. So who knows how many... what they do with my... my money also for there. So it's impossible. I think there was one more question up here towards the front, yeah. Did you have one more? We just have... actually we have actually two minutes and 30 seconds. So one statement, one line question. Okay, thank you very much. I appreciate very much the clarity of your presentations, Amira. I'm hard of hearing and I was able to hear every word that you spoke. I... some of my education comes from the film Five Broken Cameras that I suspect many people here have seen. And I gained the impression there that the Israeli army, partly because it delayed so long in moving the fence and the Supreme Court said the fence should be moved, that I get the impression that the Israeli army is pretty much a law into itself in the West Bank that it's... well, something of a dictatorship, if you will. And I wonder if you can comment about the culture of the leadership and the soldiers of the Israeli defense force in the occupation. So thank you. Any questions? The Israeli soldiers are educated to understand that their first role is to protect the life of Israeli citizens, wherever they are. So their supreme role in the West Bank is to protect the settlements. This I heard with my own ears in one of the briefings that then he was not, but today's what's it called? Chief Staff, Benny Gantz when he was only a local commander in the West Bank and I remember very well it was immediately after the withdrawal from Lebanon a few months before the Second Intifada he called for some journalists to come for a briefing and he said, you have to know that I had an urgent meeting with the Secretary of the West Bank to peace their mind that there is not going to be a withdrawal as there was in Lebanon, from Lebanon. And he said it, we consider the role of every soldier is to protect the life of Israeli citizens here. And that means that anybody approaching a settlement is seen as an aspect. And I asked him if you have a demonstration of 50,000, 60,000 Palestinians unarmed, walking towards the settlement and demanding equal distribution of water, will you also shoot? He didn't answer. But you feel that when you see when you go to areas of friction with settlers, and this is something that we didn't talk about, you see it very well with how the soldiers know that they cannot interfere and stop settlers from attacking Palestinians on the contrary, they helped them. In many, in many it's one of the, when I cited all the changes in the recent that we've noticed there is an increase in settlers' violence but it is not individual violence. It is come together, it is a part of a program to indeed to deter Palestinians from reaching their land and the army in order to prevent friction what they do, they prevent Palestinians from reaching their land. So when you talk that's what the soldiers know they have to defend the rights to protect the rights of the settlers and for them every Palestinian is a terrorist in potential or terrorist until proven otherwise. And sometimes this can be proven only after the Palestinian is dead. That's something you hear from me too from any ordinary soldier, he knows that his instructions are to protect the Jewish settlers but there's one specific aspect of this question that I'll close with and I wanted to ask you about there's a sort of a breakdown between the Supreme Court of Israel's authority and the army. So very specifically in Berlin the court ruled in 2007 that the root of the fence that divided the village had to be moved and it took four years to carry out that. Yeah and also in other places yes they say that they need time they need resources this I see as something which is yeah they don't abide immediately by the ruling but then they find other tricks to abide by a ruling as they did in road 443 that is an apartheid road, it is road only for Jews or only for Israelis but it was built to attempt to the needs of the Jews on Palestinian land and then there was a lawsuit and a petition against it and then the army came with a genius solution that Palestinians could drive there but only in a circle. So you don't reach anywhere, you can drive in a circle like in the Luna Park so so this was the genius solution of the army that the High Court accepted and now you don't see any Palestinian car over there so you know they can come with pretext why they are late in abiding by something but again I have to say that High Court does never approach those petitions in their principle level they always address it as an individual case they don't connect all the dots and make the picture they refuse to do so when it comes to demolitions when it comes to water policy they do not say oh there is this basic systemic discrimination against Palestinians so there is something unlawful here, no they always demand to treat case by case that's why for me it is not okay so once the issue it was a lot of hua around Bela'in happily so and indeed in some aspects Bela'in is better off than others because for example they can cross the fence they can cross the Bawabi the gates of the fence anytime and reach their land while other villages operated from their land by the separation wall cannot do it anytime they need to wait for soldiers and soldiers don't come on time and they do it once a week or twice a week so this is the least of the problems the time and it took them too abide by the ruling I think it's much more the tricks that they are using all the time and the fact that the High Court refuses to address the systemic problem and we're going to have to end we're just a few minutes over which I consider a miracle thank you all for being such an attentive and engaged audience and for coming this morning I appreciate it very much