 All right sounds good. So good morning. Good afternoon. Good evening wherever you are today's agenda is Think we have two Three updates today, right? One two three. Yes So we have borough cello and training and education working group Did I see is Silas on There he is. Yeah, hi. So Any other agenda items other than the updates, okay, if not Todd you want to get Sure thing with the hackfest stuff. I was out the past two weeks Trace your Chris Anything we need to cover on that to catch up. I think it's just make sure folks get registered It sounds like there was some discussion. Maybe two weeks ago just on the Agenda planning in the GSC Paul, but right, but I didn't say I'm actually planning and Gotten in the way for a lot of people but Tracy for this call anything we should jam on otherwise we can connect up after and drive things forward No, really just a reminder that we're looking for agenda items Things that people will be able to hack on specifically to be added to the agenda cool, I Think that's it on that one Chris then and we can move into the updates. Okay. All right silence. You're up Hey, let me just get my butt to give you the Qt Q2 update again Q3, okay, so In terms of project health, I think a lot better than the last update I think probably on the last update. I was still mired in a fairly massive refactor. I hadn't been released for quite a while and That sort of thing since then burrow has been used to push out our as in Monax's agreements network T1 testnet for For our public legal agreements network It seems to be working Doing that has provided a lot of quite useful pressure on Particularly on operability on smaller things like how we generate config To bigger things like how we perform network boot Kubernetes Helm charts a load of stuff for running validator pools and it's also driven some thought about how we Model the separation between a human or organizational authority and actual validators and stuff around key provisioning So we now have two companies actively contributing to our development effort, which is nice One being TCS, which I had mentioned the previous update and another company Fintera who are building again a zoned public network in In a similar line to us and in fact their developers were making useful contributions I had no idea they were even working for the same company until we eventually had a call and joined up some of our efforts and thinking So the Grammy Factor is complete. So the entire stack including JavaScript libraries packaging tooling Is all in repo Bosma not there's still a GPL dependency there We may if we were to replace some of the aetherium ABI Stuff pull even more into burrow, but that's the direction of travel to make burrow increasingly Batteries included in that single repo and in fact rework the command line. So we have sub commands for creating Genesis specs configuring the chain very shortly for for running a key service And we'll keep adding stuff there so that that you can do a go get and then natively run a chain that being one of our focuses We also have nearly got full EVM compatibility We would have had it a few weeks ago, but I'm getting One of our sort of contributors and somebody who's kind of in the maintainer pipeline to implement these op codes And that's just incurred a bit more overhead, but we've got all the plumbing. So it's just Static calls that we're missing now. We've we've implemented Four or five op codes a couple of other EIPs. So we should be Running in the same compatibility level as public aetherium on not metropolis, whatever the next one was But the latest anyway, so Issues particularly driven by Us building out into this public network some stuff that we've kind of never worried that much about is coming to the fore So we need to have a flexible fee structure And when you start thinking this through there's a bunch of dimensions in terms of Where fees live like whether they're attached to a transaction or associated with a particular contract being called How they're set whether you have a market mechanism between validators And this is all in the background with tendermint changing and upgrading its interface all the time as it moves to 1.0. So What we need is an ability to charge for gas currently we meet a gas so that computation is term Terminates, but we don't actually convert any native token into gas which we probably need to have a Public network running Then there's also the idea of Taking a network fee Out of a percentage fee out of value that's being transferred So that works for some cases it kind of works for ours But the upshot is that we want a way to incentivize validators to run by making a fair cut of Transaction volumes and that depends on the domain as to what that means So I don't want to make too many assumptions about that but provide something that's kind of flexible to build on and we need it to governance I'm implementing currently some kind of primitive for governance that The first the first iteration of which is just a big pointy stick where a Single key is able to change validator set change permission change native token distribution change consensus parameters The idea would be then to wrap that up behind an autonomous probably a model as a contract agent that can take votes from validators or votes from a selected quorum of keys or And can manage like unbonding periods so that you deal with certain nothing at stake problems It's a huge Complex issue, but I'm trying to build like the simplest base in borough that that you could implement various governance methods on top of and we're also working with a Academic group that's doing some stuff and voting projects which may help us out there But changing the validator set is like the thing that we really need and that should be in this this sprint I'm in a two week sprint right now We also need the ability to do some kind of escrow between between chains so Is it quilt that is the hyper ledger project that is doing something with Intelligio, we're kind of in the model of Cosmos, but that doesn't really exist yet I mean that they're launching but the idea of having cross-validation and the ability to escalate a particular transaction type into blockchain Transaction that's the kind of model we're working in But we're gonna need to be able to fake that and essentially do a Distributed lock. So you stake something on Ethereum our validators are able to go and Check the state of that contract then we will mint that token on our side Token and or data, but it'd be useful to get some feedback from Other projects about how they're doing this. I the plan would be to run it on a quite a slow basis It like, you know, maybe once a week or day just so it can be monitored But I'd like to get some kind of support for doing stuff like that in borough And don't really have a plan Okay, releasing. So yes, we finally made a release with like 161 commits or something the next release will be much sooner than that So that's zero Zero 18 zero it was released on the night of May. There's a change log linked in the In the wiki page. There's there's a ton of stuff there and generally I'm much happier with the The basis that we've got to build on in terms of code and there's some features in there as well including a tendermint upgrade although that already needs to be done again It's been a bit so fast So overall the chat channels are getting pretty busy particularly in borough contributors Which is really generating for me some useful discussions, which is great The borough mailing list is quiet because I've kind of totally neglected it But I was thinking I could send a mail in to the ether there with a Package of the updates including this Do this probably after the call So current plans are the big ticket items that we're working on kind of mostly within Monax in this sprint is we've done a big Cleanup of Monax keys, which is this was this satellite project. It wasn't boss mama. We're pulling it in to borrow and We're maintaining the same interface to implement HSMs and things like that behind but we're cleaning up the crypto updating the libraries We're moving some intermediate layers from like go crypto, which is this tendermint library and trying to go straight to source So we're using BTC suite for the secp keys and we're using the standard golang ed25519 stuff and generally just removing a lot of cruft And again, this is in the direction of the sort of self-hosted borough So you had to install something from another repo really to use borough Or you could implement Monax keys yourself, but of course no one did. So it's now a sub-command The Monax key stuff is and we're gonna have some better options for The model I'd like to move towards that is when a validator comes up within a validator pool It generates its own keys. They never leave the HSM or the machine And then we have some way of getting that public key bonded onto the chain rather than what we're doing at the moment which is generating all the keys in a big bang and provisioning them around from From a CI system or even from a developer's laptop I've got another note on that a bit later So yeah implemented GovTX that's the mechanism I was discussing there under the issue So that's I guess governance is also an issue But this is the underlying layer that we need to change validators I've got an idea about doing and another thing that's going to be pretty nice particularly for us We have a an object relational with a solidity relational mapping Hack really that is called sequel solve, but it does work and it gives us a queryable view on Solidity contracts It will be massively simplified by having an event system that isn't Based on subscribing and making sure that your connection doesn't drop and that you're around for time So we'll have an event firehose where you can say give me all the events between block n and n plus m And it will give you all of those events possibly with some filter that you can get and you can request them again Whenever you like so a consumer can just remember its offset and it can backfill A load of events I'm just wondering if I should be on the TSE room Yeah, that's fine So, uh, yeah, and that's what's going to be able to drive integrations things like Kafka and that's a big thing for us because we want to be able to drive Say like legal back office systems and things like that, but but generally um, and we'll build the Kafka adapter will probably be a separate quite small client to this Oh, and all of these things are moving on to gRPC as well So the the keys is the first thing to have a gRPC interface and we'll be creating Existing methods on on gRPC Rather than some of the hand rolled json rpc stuff Um, major theme for burrow. Yeah, it's it's operability ability. So network formation stuff The idea of like a hierarchical identity for validator pools. So the idea that uh So say we're running a pool of like seven validators if we have a a key that is like the master key or the validator pool key um, and that Is will be the key that can bond any Any server that comes up into that pool? um So there's a few reasons why this layer of indirection is quite useful Uh, certainly in tendermen. Um, and I'm thinking we should capture it explicitly in our account model somehow. Um Yeah, improve configuration kubernetes helm charts, which are now as part of the the helm library And then we need to look at state snapshotting to catch up with chains. Um, should be fairly straightforward in terms of getting a level dv Checkpoint, uh maintain a diversity. So we're still pretty monax heavy. Um But that uh, we've we've added um My new colleague shawn young to the maintainer list. He's working pretty actively on burrow Um, we've got uh me kasey and tyler from monax. We've also got a pretty good pipeline. I mean For us anyway, uh of our future maintainers So there's a couple of guys from fenterra guy called amid uh puller pullerzade and mostafa sedge cat Who I've already made useful contributions I'd expect by the next update that they will be fully maintainers, but it's still quite new relationship We've also got shawn from tcs. Um He's a newer developer and needs a little bit more practice before I'd be ready to make him a maintainer, but but On the horizon we would at least have a Better bus factor on companies um Contributive diversity. Yeah, we've added three new contributors one uh, like possibly More than that for for some documentation. Um, there's a couple of people doing like phd projects and things on on burrow Who have started to write some docs haven't been merged in We've also got a piece of tooling called snack. Um written by amid actually Which is not Obviously on the hyper ledger organization, but it is explicitly for burrow. So that's an entire kind of truffle like thing. Um Yeah, and and and shawn black black as I said, um, it It meant meant that we had to go a bit slower on some of the evm up goes But he's he's given us some really good work on getting up to Most recent evm compatibility um So then yeah under additional information here, I just Made one remark. I don't know whether it's worth discussing now. Um, but So burrow is known as the hyper ledger project with an evm but uh after A consensus and more generally we're working very closely with tendermint and cosmos now and It sort of feels like particularly with some of our plans that are away from the evm that we could Sort of come to be the project for building permission Public chains on tendermint slash cosmos or even the hyper ledger app for tendermint or something like that. So burrow will increasingly have some support for, uh, this Generating like fee gas schemes. Um to run your your your public, uh, your public zone In a in a doesn't explicitly have to be tendermint, but it's in that model of zone communication There are some other consensus engines that have a similar interface Also for running business process as in bpmn. That's what the agreements network does. Um, And we're going to have some support in our s natives for Doing some of the execution there Yeah, and and then this business around escrow we want that to develop into a way of sending, um arbitrary messages using this ibc Into blockchain transactions Um, so I don't know what bearing that has on what input the tcs would like to have on that whether You feel that this would belong well, I mean We would we could always do this in a fork, but like just how to imagine the development of burrow in this direction and particularly with this kind of uh tendermint emphasis, um Yeah, anyway, I just thought it's worth remarking, but um, that's it Tell them to come on down Um, I'm enjoying yeah, exactly. Well, they're not to join they just have to set up job. Um A couple of points, uh on um on your update, um, which I Appreciate, um so in terms of uh, you mentioned the need to uh be able to Charge for gas and I have a similar requirement for what we're doing with the burrow evm plug-in for for fabric So we'd love to Collaborate with you on that Yeah, um, and then yeah as for the um, you know escrow or you know interoperability with other chains Yeah, we should We should we should talk about that too I suspect our two guys are also interested, but I like Kelly to speak for them Yeah, so I mean that that would that would that would be good. I think that the the gas charging is something that Uh could could fairly easily be added as a question of what artifact we want for the schedule Um, currently we collect a fee that is set in the transaction and the fee can be Set to to whatever you like uh newer versions of tendermen are allowing us the ability to push through on our Transaction check. So that's the when it enters the mempool Um to push back what what fee is offered and then they'll use some approximate algorithm to try and pack the Get pack into well each proposal will try and get the maximum total fee packed into a block So, uh, that that'll be the tenement integration piece for us. But then um, there's a there's a few there's a few axes on which you could try and do the fee stuff. Um You can have a competition there Although it doesn't allow per validated competition. There's also the the possibility that I kind of prefer is Taking a percentage of any value that's transferred um, because mostly so in our particular use case, we kind of think of Computation has been commoditized like almost negligible cost particularly for um, uh Operations are more bookkeeping when they're compared to the operations are actually for example listing an agreement Now, I know that doesn't work for everyone and I've been speaking to fintera people and it doesn't work for them. Um, so Yeah, it doesn't get a use case that that i'm thinking of is actually more where the gas is used just as a rate limiter Not necessarily as a fee or some sort of incentive for running validators and so forth Although it could be again, but you know at least You know the initial set of requirements that I have is more for rate limiting In other words, you know, you can do 10 000 transactions a day You know or something like that, right? And if you need to do more, you know, you need to You need to ask permission that kind of thing So, yeah, actually that that's something I would because I mean Volumes of transactions are always going to be relatively limited on On a pbft style system well, yeah and one One thing I quite like to do is I mean I slightly worry about the the nature of validated voting power, which is the Essentially what we would model as a token, but we would transfer into the tenement voting power as a mechanism to extract rent but another way for them to extract rent using this other than the fees is To be able to have a certain quota So we could quite easily base that on the relative voting power of a validator Which also has its own rpc And it gets the right to some number of slots pushing transactions in Which might be a kind of interesting way for Also for operators to specialize whole voting power To operate a node and then auction off their their transaction quota. So, yeah, I'm kind of interested in thinking about that stuff, too Yeah, I think it sort of needs a bit of bit of modeling away from the code. I think Anyway, so just uh Oh, sorry, I was going to ask for the for the work that's being done to tenement. Is that um to make that Uh in burrow in particular to make it a sort of fully public permissionless Uh network or is it still going to have sort of permissions on? You know, who can who can send transactions and and some of this rate limiting? Uh, I guess just yeah have some questions on on the public capabilities of of burrow So it will remain uh commissioned um But it will also be public. Um And For validators we will be finding a way to distribute validator token and we'll have a minimum bond. So in order to be a validator Your Well, they're also going to be starting off like what we're doing in the in the t-series We've got some more companies on board. So we know who they are as well So so that's kind of invite only for participants currently certainly for the test net. We're not restricting um participants But no one is able to create contracts. So all of our contracts are like autonomous factories that can create other stuff So we've actually got some contract level uh Kind of permissioning but in terms of if you if you're a punter who shows up and wants to formulate an agreement on for us then then that would be open and that would be the idea Running burrow in that mode whether at some point we would need um to Uh Start limiting a transaction coming in that that may be the case when when we have this model where there's Uh where where burrow network can start as a tendermint zone um Then I think there's potentially a way in which that becomes sort of permissionless in that you don't need permission to start your own zone um But but otherwise we would be sticking with the permissions and as I say this we don't actually So some people are using burrow to be a Drop-in ethereum replacement. So they want They want every the global permissions to have the create permission. We don't actually give anyone Any participant the create permission and we actually We need the that's why we need the governance stuff when we need to do an up a concept upgrade It's only going to be a governance agent that can do that Um Okay, got it. That's that's useful. No the one last question I had just thinking about um, sort of how burrow's positioned is Uh, I know there was recently an announcement of the enterprise ethereum Uh spec and was curious if that is if uh You guys are involved in that at all and if that's a goal with burrow to be compliant with that spec Um, it's a power point, but I I hadn't um, uh I hadn't noticed that um, I'm not against taking a look at it. But frankly, uh, I was pissed off the last time I engaged with uh enterprise ethereum And I'm not sure what state they're in leaving their bootstraps themselves. Um, but uh, yeah, I take a look. I don't know What I was arguing for was For ethereum was an effort to unbundle Um into manageable pieces, you know, like a decent ethereum spec would be really useful Like the yellow paper is not a decent spec. Um a decent spec on um, how gas scheduling should work on Vitalics kind of ideas around unloading state that hasn't been rented out. Like that's potentially interesting. So so I'd yeah I I will take a look. Um, but yeah, I don't know without without looking at it and um, also just like Getting my finger back on whether they're a functional organization Okay, perfect. Just wanted to check. Thank you Could you expand just a little bit? You made a you made a mention in passing sylas about maybe borough becomes the I think you put it like the the hyper ledger application for endermint Um, may have misquoted you there, but can you say a little bit more about that? Sorry, just finding nothing to unmute. Yeah, so I'm not quite sure how to phrase this but um I guess I feel it's like it's certainly it It's a an area that we're doing a lot of work in to support our use case Certainly some of this I mean It will is going in is going into borough and I suppose part the question is Maybe how much of this belongs fully in borough or as an extension? but If you look at so what what so tendermint has this quite, uh forceful Uh interface where it kind of it kind of owns the p2p and it owns all that stuff and I think that that's that's been an issue for You guys like sort of all fabric integrating which kind of want to have a little bit more control over your Consensus network and and there may be some scope there for for breaking it up But particularly with their the stuff they're building in their sdk Actually obeying roughly speaking the abci interface allows you to go and play with the broader Tendermint network now the current art on this is so they have their sdk and they have this base coin app Which provides some useful stuff, but is very much focused on things like decentralized currency exchange So no one's doing stuff like we are which so at the core of the legal agreement stuff is is this business process modeling on a chain On on the one hand and then there's a load of like operational stuff Like so the way that we have provide the private validator over an interface that could be plugged into hsm The way that we're handling our state that there's a bunch of things that And of course the evm itself and also thinking potentially about other execution um, but there's a way in which we're building a lot of stuff that Probably provides something useful if you wanted to Launch a public, you know a public or semi public zone that could connect to cosmos And So I know sort of brought a tendermint ecosystem so What am I asking? I suppose Do we think this belongs in burrow like what how How are projects evolution guided? Um, would it be useful? How would it link to other? Other projects. Um, is this something that could end up being a library? I mean, so one thing that I didn't want to end up doing I think as I've said before is to try and have Plugable consensus. Um Totally pluggable execution engines ideally not break out of a single process because that sort seems to be the niche um I'm going on to a more general purpose execution against tendermint. There's a slight risk there, but um But yeah We are a tendermint app in the sense of we implement the abci application interface That's when I say app. Um, and we have a lot of other stuff that relates to building with permissions building with Gas and fee incentives particularly as we develop that. Um, and that seems like it's it's useful if anyone wants to wants to play with tendermint Which obviously has its um, its own Kind of unique selling points on the consensus mechanism there particularly once it can be show added into zones Okay, thanks. Thanks for the update in general silence So thanks Alice. This was a great update. Um, I think we should move on because we have two more So I think up next was where did my window go? Sorry Is it Uh chelo update chelo so bawa. I think I saw you on Yeah, and uh the maintainer head tall will do the update Okay Oh, yeah. Oh, okay. So this is the head tall um No, I will introduce to you um progress over the second quarter for the chelo and And the plans for the next quarter So, um currently we have released version zero point eight And the and the next release version will be zero point nine so in in current version um We have these features user user can deploy fabric networks in docker and docker swarm Um and the user can can also apply the fabric fabric network in In the user dashboard then they can see the status of the fabric network and and also can upload Deploy and call and query the smart contract in the user dashboard And in the in in the last quarter The chelo chelo chelo community Are being very active um And we keep weekly weekly regular meeting Yeah, and and currently also we also have three maintainer who Are working on the project actively um And now we we have provided we have provided some tutorial video for for chelo startup And in the future we will record more related tutorial video um The constant the constant plan for the channel for the chelo, uh, mainly are And the mainly The constant plan for the chelo mainly are the Refactor the code for operator ui and the both ui and the background service of the user dashboard List change in mainly for code specification And refine overall architect design for the user dashboard and operation of reader dashboard so This will let the community developer understand the code struct easily and develop development faster And the other the The the biggest feature in the current plan is to support Kubernetes agent um Based on this feature We'll provide provide the users with more with more ways to deploy Deploy fabric networks And and the other feature is to integrate composer with chelo um And we also have some improving Improve improvement uh included uh dynamic dynamic Certificate generation and management for the For the fabric network um in the current the certificate method is static and static fixed method Is it is it very easily? um and um operator operator can import and operator can import Exited the fabric network into the pool of the fabric network So this we will give more ways to Create fabric network in chelo um In the user dashboard User will will can watch the logs or all node in fabric network and Added to the smart contract online easily. So let's let's mix user um To debug the smart contract easily um and We we will ensure the release version zero the poison line in the end or this quarter yeah, and I think this is all the updates for the Chelo product that's in in this quarter so any Any questions? Any questions from the others? Great Okay, uh, thank you. So I think next up is tracy Hey chris, uh, actually i'm gonna have uh kelly cooper. I do this update Kelly was elected prior to our decision to have the tsc elect new chairs for the Education working group. Uh, so she will be running the working groups and the updates for the training education work group kelly great. Thanks tracy the training at education work group is A collaborative group of people who are keen on hyper ledger We are having kind of a transition between intent and action it's almost a little bit of stage fright and we have Try to kind of setting up a process and setting up sprints and then we took a look at a couple of examples We have some great opportunities for example The edX course for hyper ledger is now up to 100 000 users And so some of our graduate students especially can benefit By contributing to the next course or the next version of the course and currently can contribute to the discussion forums within the edX course however We do more talking than we do developing And so we're trying a couple of new Ways around that. Uh, one is one of our members is working with tracy to Kind of set up the style guide for the way that images might look Um, we have a lot of conversations about target audience because there are many and about kind of breath versus depth At this point what i'm working on is utilizing documentation and putting together Some potential templates for how it is that people can help build learning materials And so I would say that the group is interesting and excited We have as many learners as we have people that are ready to prepare learning materials We can utilize them for testing The learning materials however In our next update. I hope that we will have more actual materials to present than we have enthusiasm to discuss That's it Tracey, did you want to add anything? No, I think I think that's pretty much the case right and um, You know, I think the the thing maybe is to Ask the tsc and and people have been involved in new working groups kind of how to get past that You know initial initial phase of of the working group right where it's Seems like there's there's not a lot of Output but more just you know passion for for trying to do something but not really sure how to get started Um, you know, I know We've seen similar sorts of updates for the first time with different working groups and So like is there any sort of words of wisdom that we we can offer as the tsc to the training and education working group? And I'll add to that also that as tsc If we have particular areas for example with cello or burrow where you can really use and request some materials and More of that targeted focus might help us to get a few people to Be less nervous and more productive so I guess um Let me see if I can if I can frame this correctly. So you have an awful lot of interests but Is it that those that are interested don't know how to Contribute or they don't have the expertise or help me understand I think more of the expertise and so at first I thought that they might not know how to contribute and so what we tried was Existing training inventories. I set up database for ideas that people saw on the internet whether that be through medium or through other materials to collect that And we had no no response or two responses. Then we set up a kind of an idea list of things that people would like to contribute to and then that looked like it was going to go somewhere and we asked for People to self identify if they would be contributors or learners and for most part they were learners And then we set up I mocked up three courses One on blockchain technologies another on iot technologies just to kind of find out if people were interested in kind of business use cases and No one responded to that then we set up a style guide for what it is that distance education looks like with today's Understanding how we could differentiate ourselves from mooks with good materials Everyone was enthusiastic and there's no response. So we've got about a dozen different possibilities set up on google docs And I do see when I'm in there, maybe two or three people looking at it We've got a couple of people who like to talk and talk You know, it could be this it could be this and so I don't What we're trying to do is to corral a little bit and just say let's pick a couple of topics But for example, we had the opportunity to look at the sawtooth documentation that will go into Ed x and everyone was enthusiastic, but still did not really have any Um kind of Contribution from a technical nature. And so one thing that we've thought about can I can I can I make a suggestion because I think I see where this is going and I think rather than maybe necessarily sourcing new Material maybe the thing to because there is an awful lot of interest people would want to learn they're hungry But maybe the thing to do for this working group would be to work with the various projects to help them understand where There's a need to improve whether it's their documentation or their inventory of samples or what have you That this working group can help facilitate That kind of interaction as I think a lot of times people are afraid to say hey, you know Or or or the questions are sort of gets lost in whether it's in chat or You know in in in hyperspace or whatever You know, I really wish there was You know something that told me how to build a Transaction family or whatever Or you know, how do I do a chain code that kind of thing? I mean It just might be worthwhile just sort of Working with the the people that are showing up and saying hey, let's go through what's there and let's build a a gap analysis of what could be added to improve it and then working with the project teams to figure out how they can Help to span that gap because I think the expertise is always going to be a shortage and it's likely to You know fall squarely with those that are developing the various tools and platforms but I don't know what others might think Kelly or Dan or One other good thing and then I'll pause and that is what we did in our last meeting was We offered let's take a look at the existing tutorials and start to go through those and to identify areas where perhaps you got stuck And additional information might be interesting or maybe the vocabulary was that it needs to be expanded on to where You can link from the existing tutorials to an image or to more detail that would help to For the reader to kind of understand what that was. I mean that would be huge. I think that would be huge So we were calling that a visual dictionary and we've been trying to get that going for two or three meetings as well so I don't I don't discredit at all the enthusiasm of the group. We just need somehow it's like We're not quite at the right combination, but I think it's going to be a great group. And so we are trying to at this point work with the existing materials Because I just I'll I put this in the tsc chat But I I agree with you 100 right there are actual comments coming out in these working groups of Things that they wish were different or problems that they're seeing in the existing documentation and that sort of thing. So You know, maybe it's it would be worthwhile for us to create a thread on the training and education working group mailing list that really just ask people for Hey provide feedback on on like where you're having trouble with getting started or The existing material that you're finding That's not working for you that sort of thing. Yeah Like I said, it would be huge to get that kind of feedback and to have it You know focused, you know through the lens of the working group, you know, sort of pulling this together and then having you know Some coherent ideas about what we what we might do and how we wouldn't might how we might prioritize and so forth. So And the other nice thing about that is someone is contributing to something that's already in process in case starting something Is part of the wrinkle Right and and sometimes it is just getting started and people start by you know just Fixing typos or fixing grammar and and then they start to learn it a little bit better and feel a little bit more comfortable they get A little bit more involved and I think that you know You know again You know, we we you know, I think we're better when we're collaborating together and and driving you know You know driving more Again, I think I think a lot of times people feel Oh, you know, I can't You know I'm not worthy or I don't know what you know about you know engaging with a project and feeling like they're a part of it That's it's a large part of the hurdle of getting started And and so this this working group I think could be very effective that you know getting People a little bit more engaged in the various projects and helping in metaways, right? You know, they may have meta Contributes, they may not be experts But maybe by virtue of the fact that they're consumers Getting together and they could say yeah, it would be really great if we had more samples or if we had Better examples or if we had tutorials as opposed to just a bunch of code That we're supposed to sort through So anyway So on a specific case, so this is Silas from burrow. Um, there's somebody who's doing their thesis For like bachelor's or masters or something called valve valve wear on the burrow chat and he's Offered to write up his experiences and like he's had various issues Because out of date docs and stuff, but he seems to know what he's doing And he's someone who's offered to write this up and we said oh that'd be great for the project Could I put him in touch with someone because I think all he might need is a bit of like guidance slash hassling which I'm Want to forget to do Would that be part of this sort of an effort? Yes Okay, so she like she like um, shall I ping you on chat and get him on there? Yeah, okay cool The other thing is is that um, we're being really, um, encouraging And I think that everyone in the group sees this as an opportunity so it could be That placing people in additional collaborative environments would be a great fit So the feedback is much appreciated Any other comments questions suggestions? For Kelly, okay. Thank you very much All right I'll give people eight minutes back unless there's anything else All right, talk to you all next week