 Hello beautiful people. Hello beautiful people. Thank you for joining us on Sunday and it's my favorite day at the library. The farmer's market is happening. It's quiet. There's no bosses. Visit all of our floors. They're amazing. Right across the Jewett Gallery is a staff art show. So artists as staff. And first floor is Damian Lanai's artwork from the campaign, Ear Hustle. Fifth floor is Facing Life, part of also of our Ear Hustle One City One Book. And this is about Pindarvis Har Shah and Brandon Tizik did an essay in photos of folks who are experiencing re-entry. Sixth floor has handbook binding exhibit. So there's lots to see here and I thank you all for being here. Today you are here to hear from the amazing Sarah Cruzan and Corey Thomas. But first I just want to tell you a little bit about, you know, the campaign One City One Book. It is our largest literary campaign that we host. And whoop whoop. Yep. One City One Book. This is Ear Hustle. Unflinching stories of everyday prison life. And based on the podcast Nigel Pore and Earlan Woods. Most gracious authors ever. Right now you can pick up their book at any location, 28 locations or bookmobile from San Francisco Public Library. And we are coming towards an end of the campaign sadly. We do have two more events coming up and you can find those information about those at the back. And there's also a brochure of all the information that we have, programs we had as well as a reader's guide and lots of resources out there for anyone experiencing folks inside, loved ones inside, or reentry. We have a jail and reentry department here at San Francisco Public where we deliver books to folks inside in San Francisco, San Quentin, the jail in San Bruno. That's also under our jurisdiction. And then we do reference by mail. The most referenced by mail this side of the Mississippi. So all of the prisons and jails referenced by mail comes here. Not Penpal. That's different. I encourage you all to do that as well. But reference by mail, this side of the Mississippi we handle. So it's big, tiny department, amazing work. So yes, be part of it. Let's read together. So if you didn't know, you are on a lony land. The San Francisco Public Library acknowledges that we occupy the unceded ancestral homeland of the Romitush Loni peoples who are the original inhabitants of the San Francisco Peninsula. We recognize that we benefit from living and working on their traditional home space. And as uninvited guests, we affirm their sovereign rights as first peoples. Yes. Thank you. And you should check out Segorte Land Trust, an all women led initiative coming out of Oakland who's working in the land back movement and succeeding. So check them out. It's the giving time of year, you know. Um, all right. So out further ado, we're going to bring up our guest, Sarah Cousin and Corey Thomas co author. I cried to dream again is Cousin. Yes, Corey Thomas, Sarah Cousin. Yes, I cried to dream again is Cousin story as a survivor of childhood abuse and sex trafficking. It's honest, often painful, but ultimately empowering story of her journey from abuse to incarceration without parole for killing her abuser. The book is available in the back and we will have a Q and a period. Please fill out those index cards and wave me down and I will grab them and we'll do it at that way. Sarah Cousin is an activist and survivor. She's an advocate for sentencing reform and the human rights of incarcerated women and children and the inspiration behind Sarah's law, a bill currently in the house representative seeking to protect children from abuse from facing life sentences. Corey Thomas is an author, a screenwriter and award winning playwright. And let's give them a really warm welcome. Thank you all so much for coming on this rainy Sunday afternoon. I'm really pleased to be here with Sarah. We got to know each other pretty well in the course of the work on this book. And so I think it's really neat to have the opportunity to sit here with her and speak about that with you, let people know more about it because it's about a subject that we both feel pretty passionately about at this point. And I thought I would just start by talking about how I came to know of Sarah and her story. I was listening to the podcast Ear Hustle. I've been a volunteer at San Quentin State Prison for this is my seventh year now of doing that. And I knew that there was a podcast happening at first, but I wasn't quite sure what it was. And then I began listening and this story just sort of stopped me in my tracks. It's an episode called Dirty Water and it was in the second season. And it was Sarah was told her story and there was a trafficker who had a conversation with her. But what happened was that I learned things that I didn't know about. And I thought that that was so important and it opened my eyes and made me really want to understand more. And so I remember the first thing that went through my mind was this woman should write a book. And then I had the good fortune to meet Sarah. We became friends. And you know, we just sort of it was one of those things where you sometimes just meet someone and you just instantly sort of just like them and get along with them and that sort of thing. And so we started communicating with each other and texting and sending little funny things and all sorts of things. But there was one point when I finally got up my courage, because I kind of just looked up to her and I got up the courage to tell her, I think you should write a book. And she was at first not so sure. She was humble. She said, oh, I don't know that anyone would be interested in a book. And I said, well, I would be and I think a lot of people would be. And we talked about it. What happened is that I then shared with her something that had happened to me when I was a teenager. I was a child. And I mean, obviously what I had gone through didn't even touch the scratch the surface of anything she had. However, you know, we shared the fact that we were both adolescents and we shared the fact that I understood I had been very ashamed to tell anyone about what had happened with me for many, many years. And then it eventually the story got out and it was part of the whole me to movement. But I understood also what telling that story had done, which is, you know, it was not something I wanted to tell. And I was really resistant to telling at first. But once I did, it was like a weight had lifted off of my shoulders. And the other thing was that there were so many people who contacted me. I mean, to this day, people contact me strangers who say that because they saw something about that, it gave them the courage to some of them just said, I'm just telling you about something that happened to me that I've never told anyone or they, they were talking, they were saying, I think I'm going to finally tell somebody about what happened. And so it gave people that courage and made them feel not so alone. And I think that that's always important. So we talked about that. And that, you know, that was something that Sarah felt very strongly about also giving people the agency and the strength. And I said that, you know, what I feel this book can do is that it can start to change the narrative, which I think is very important, because I don't think that we who are survivors of someone doing something wrong to us should be the ones who feel ashamed and who feel bad. It should be the person who has inflicted the damage on somebody who feels the bad feelings, you know, not us. And so I said, I think that the only way that can change is to keep telling your story is to just people like you, like me to keep talking about it and talking about it. And that's when it might start to change them. It might become more normal for the, the predator to be the one who feels the shame and knows that they've done something wrong. So anyway, that's the sort of like backstory to this. So we started our journey, we started writing until COVID started, we were very, very close. I would, you know, meet with her. We went to many of the locations mentioned in the book. Sarah was extremely gracious and generous in terms of, you know, giving me access to people to speak with, to help shape the narrative, you know, every chapter she went over. And so it was very much of a collaboration, you know, where she told me things. Other people told me things. I was able to look at documents. I was able to read transcripts. And she was just very open and generous, because I think once we sort of like jumped into the pool, we just did it like, okay, we're going to go for this and we're going to do this. And so, you know, I know there were times it was not easy, you know, it was really not easy to go there and to go back there. And, you know, I think sometimes I would push her like, I need more information. I need more information. But she always was just very brave and courageous. I felt and in sharing this story, because the goal I think was to hopefully help others and to change this narrative that has existed for so long. So anyway, I'm going to give this to you a little bit and talk to you and just ask you, I think first maybe to just talk a little bit about what you feel can be accomplished by people reading this book and knowing your story. So first, thank you all for being here. I think this is just a wonderful gift. The intimacy, the setting. It is remarkable. And this book has birthed hope and healing in a way that restores not only the soul, but our families. So I'm emotional because right here in the front row, I'm just going to say it. So Tiffany, um, Rachel, Bruce, Melora, and my brother, my God, Michael. This is the fruit of hope right here. Rachel is in the book, but she's, I love her, mentored her, and I promised her we used to chase rainbows in prison. And I said, you got to catch the pot of gold, you know, and to see this, she didn't give up. And Tiffany, my good friend in prison, same thing. We sat up there and gave each other love and hope and with such integrity and with such love and brought back the power of what walking through some of the darkest moments of your life can look like and still being able to dance in that. Melora, one of my lawyers from the team that spent endless hours giving each other hope that brought me home. So this is the domino effect. My brother, Mike, I never met through ancestry.com. We knew of each other. It's magical that this is happening the way that it is. And to share it with each and every one of you, this is not a coincidence. Like this is universal love. This is a symphony of hope. The book, yeah, you know, when I met Corey, you'll see if you've read it. I haven't read my own book. Like, I don't know if I ever will, you know, it's okay. It's good. But it's, we wrote it in the middle of crisis. We wrote it in acute trauma. So you're reading the birth of trauma breaking through in a way that would be not only tangible, but somewhat able, has a capacity to digest with whatever senses that you are most in tune with. And I hope that it also can change the language and the narrative on how we no longer repurpose another person's trauma based on the cultural climate of acceptance, but that we can actually individualize that trauma and identify it and create solutions that's tailored to meet the need. Because hope is exactly what you're seeing right here. And yes, the book does identify a lot of dark moments. But through those dark moments is also like this really remarkable and fascinating capacity that the human soul has once you delve with those demons. And just because you have conversations with them like this book captured some of those dark demons, but just because they're there and they had an opportunity to speak, that doesn't mean they always go away. And one of the walkaways from this is that I won't ever downplay the impacts of one person's experience with trauma. You can't collectively stereotype that. And in this book, I think being able to talk about what that looks like is our trauma at each other. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I think it was very healing for me to work with you on this as well. But I was telling Sarah that the book was at a cousin's book club. And so it was a small gathering of women. And we were talking about it. And there were two pediatricians who were in the in the group. And one of them was saying, you know, I feel like all pediatricians should read this book. Because I've actually had a few patients who were trafficked. But I don't think I actually understood what they had gone through. But also what my role is and what it is that I should be doing. Because I, I, you know, it's a thing where you felt a distance. And now I understand it in a way that I didn't. And she said, so I feel like it's important that all pediatricians teachers, in fact, all doctors should should read this to understand what it is that that people go through, because it feels like it's effective when you hear it from someone who has dealt with and lived an experience. So how do you feel about that? I mean, that No, absolutely. I'm so sorry, you guys. Excuse me. I need a Kleenex. So this is possible that I can have a Kleenex. Please. Sorry. That's okay. Excuse me. Go ahead, Corey. I need a moment, please. Thank you. No, so I'll, I'll, I'll talk a little bit more about that. But that so anyway, this, this felt like it was just like an important point to me that to hear somebody who has actually dealt with people who've gone through an experience and understanding it in a different kind of a way. I mean, because obviously she understood the physical impacts of what the person had gone through and was able to treat those, those things. But understanding an emotional side of it, I think in the personal side and the human side has, has made her see it in a diff, through a different lens in a way that she feels more agency actually in how she will deal with her patients. So I thought that was really kind of a remarkable thing that was said, you know, at that moment. And, and I just said that moment, I was like, you know, thank goodness, you know, thank goodness for this opportunity to inform people about this subject in a way that I mean, that's what, why I thought I had never read a book about this from somebody who had gone through this. So I thought that that was really important. I mean, I know it's not a pleasant subject or hard. It's a hard subject that I always feel like if somebody lived through it, it's real, it happened. And so therefore, someone who's gone through something didn't have that luxury of saying, Oh, I don't want to go through this. So therefore, you know, for someone to not want to read something because it seems hard is like, that's too easy, you know, and life shouldn't be that easy. Sometimes we have to deal with and learn about and get to the other side of something. Yeah. And you know, when it comes to like the institutions in the hospitals, when they deal with those who have trauma and they come in, they're not really like tailored to meet the needs of the victim coming in. It's real sterile and it causes more trauma. So I hope that yeah, like we can really have this conversation and maybe rewrite what those policies and procedures look like for folks so that they can have protocol that's more compassionate and like kind. Right. So talk about what you were just talking about the Graze episode. I thought that was just so it was really powerful. So there's this little reel like, and it had showed a scene from I think it was Graze anatomy and this woman was a victim and she was in the gurney. And so the head of the hospital asked all the men to leave and replaced all the men doctors and nurses with females for this woman to come in and feel safe. And they lined up as and they brought her in and said, okay, like we're here. Like everyone God bless you. Like everyone just was there to help her instead of sterilizing you're right and re hurting her. And it was just really remarkable to see that folks took that extra step that not only causes healing in that moment but is able to be passed on in a way and then like nurtured and it's going to grow and foster and become really well with love. Yeah. And I was I was telling Sarah about another thing a friend of mine who had read the book said that recently she was traveling through and I think it was Miami International Airport, but I'm not positive about this. But she was saying, I really thought about you and I couldn't wait to tell you that there were announcements and signs everywhere saying that if you see, you know, a child with an adult and they seem uncomfortable, please tell someone or if you notice anything that seems strange, please tell someone and it was something stopped trafficking was on the signs and whatever. And so she just thought that that was just such an interesting and, you know, new development that people seem to be more aware of this as something that happens frequently and continuously. And that, you know, we've always had this image of like this van coming into a neighborhood and, you know, some stranger grabbing people from the streets and that sort of thing and it's more likely that it's someone that somebody knows and that has been grooming them and, you know, and frequently an authority figure or a loved one who the child trusts and whatever that this happens with. So, you know, that's something that I think this book kind of portrays pretty clearly because that is what happened. Yeah. The impacts of grooming comes in so many different forms and it's such an intimate experience. And then it's also like I still see I think being away in prison for 19 years and then being out almost nine and I've seen that there hasn't really been much change but almost like more trauma and that the grooming that's happening to people culturally is kind of like exploitive and unsettling, you know, so just being able to have the conversation and ask the hard questions to see like how we can just create solutions and create the change that's needed. Is there anything that you that you can offer, I guess, in terms of how you think healing can occur and how you think some change where some areas that you see changes should occur, if you could point some of those things out. Definitely in the communities, I think that sometimes we have people who become the voice of the pain and and sometimes it's like we might just need to delve in and say, hey, what is it that you need? How can we make this better for you? Okay, what does your plan look like? What does your plan look like? What do you need? As opposed to doing it as a collective and we're just going to solve this problem sometimes, you know, most of our homeless population is veterans and it's just, you know, my father's a veteran and he, you know, has that experience and it's just shocking that we live in this country that they fought for and they're completely neglected. This makes sense and until we like identify what those needs are, it's going to show everywhere else in our youth and our communities that are under resourced and it's really just about having the conversation with the folks that are having experience. What do you need? And they'll tell you usually, you know, if it's safe, they'll let you know and then you just like, okay, let's put together a plan for you because I love you. And that one person that you like plant into and be consistent with, guess what? They're going to go and they're going to plant some seeds in someone else and they're going to foster something else and it's going to grow and you're going to see it and it doesn't take a lot. It just takes like love and safety and feeling good to be there. There's more community at CCWF with like nothing, right? Then I see out here and I'm like waiting for it to change and I'm like, well, maybe if I go to Texas, what if I go to New Mexico? No, Arizona. I'm just going to hang out with the cactuses, you know, because it's like, what's going on? We're so busy out here and it's like, we could just slow down and say, how you doing? How bad is it if like, if you're in a driveway or drive through, right? And you're like, I'm going to pay for the next two people's lunches. Dude, like I got you. So they get there and they're doing their order and the person's like, it's already taken care of. You don't know if that was someone's mom, you know what I mean? They be like, ah, but I promise you that act of kindness, it's going to come around and I promise you, like it happened to me. I went and did not, in such a short period of time, I was like, oh, it was paid for and I was like, no way. So those are the kind of what like the way we lived in there was like that. We paid it forward. It was like the barter system, but like with love, inspiration, you know, our emotion of hope and was our wealth. And that makes us like one of the wealthiest people because there's nothing that can come between that love. And then if that can be birthed in an environment that's considered to be the throwaways, then guess what? Then it's totally capable out here if we choose to do that. Right? And then I think also like what's powerful about the book is that, yeah, it does bring up some ugly stuff, but like we're victims because we've been victimized, but if someone continuously indoctrinates and put that in your head, you're a victim. You know, you went through what was so traumatic. It was so difficult. How do you feel about that? You feel this feel really bad about that, huh? Are you feeling really bad about it? If that could, yes, you're going to start to feel like that. I was in prison. I didn't know I was a victim. Right? Like, whoa. But being out here in the community and sharing the story, which I think is remarkable, but also being told over and over and over again that I was a victim, I was like, oh, then I'm a victim. Yeah. Brings you down. Right? But that's not, that's not the truth. So I hope like we can just continue this conversation, ask hard questions, brainstorm about creative ways to just offer love and hope because it's powerful, Lori. Very. The other thing that I was very excited about in the book and in life and whatever is the law, Sarah's law, which was a reason I also thought that your story should be told because I felt like it had such an epic sort of arc that has something that has come out of the whole experience that creates hope and change, which is a law that will change the situation in the world and in the country. I mean, not the world, but the country anyway, for other kids to prevent other kids from going through what you went through. So I don't know if you're aware or if you know where, what the status is right now. I know it's been so complicated with COVID and whatever, because I don't know if people know laws are really hard to pass. They go state by state by state by state. And sometimes they're adjusted slightly in the, in each state and whatever. So it's not an easy process. I know that it was definitely passed in Virginia within another name or something. And I think, I don't know, Hawaii ever came along or if they had to start again. It's just complicated. So I think we're probably not really clear on where we are right now with this. But well, I do know we recently, Human Rights for Kids, we recently had a conversation with Clover Shaw's office. And that's for like the TVPRA with the trafficking victims protection. And that's a bigger bill. And I just, I just, you know, I don't really understand the depths of politics. But I think when it comes to children, those in position have the authority to make the necessary policy change if they're able to have the compassion needed to restore the rights of our children, right? So usually children who end up in these situations where they're in front of the judge who has to have this discretion is usually because an adult harm them and they're having a reactive trauma violence. So yes, it can be challenging. However, we're definitely going to do what we got to do to get these laws changed and restore our lives and rebalance policies. That's some of the work that's actually. Yeah, because what I felt was that if people read the book and they understand the reason for the law, the person behind the law, that, you know, when it comes up, you know, for voting, that you might understand why it's necessary and important for that law to be passed because you actually understand where, you know, the seed from which it grew actually. So protect the children. Yeah, protect children. And, you know, so anyway, that was something that I thought was a good, you know, that was another platform and another reason that I thought it was important that the story be told your particular story because there are so many, so many, so many similar stories, so many similar stories. But, you know, yours has that little pot of gold as you called it, sort of also at the end of the rainbow, which is a law that will actually legally change a situation for the better. So we're working on it, the conversation. I mean, I don't think any child should be punished. No, period. No child that's been through trauma or been abused or exploited or sexually sold or in slavery deserves to be in prison, period. So getting that messaging across to legislators can be a challenge, but you know what, having life without parole plus four years and coming home, that was a challenge too. So we were able to do that. We met that challenge. So, yeah, so it's possible. Anything is possible, really. Right? Yeah. And then, and the life without parole, does that, I mean, remember when you all went to, was it Las Vegas or Nevada? For the law. Yeah. That's, that was abolished there. Yes, it was abolished. Yes. And it was retroactive. So there were so youth and we were able to pass the law there and remarkable hear how they're doing. So champions now too. So, yeah. Yeah. So these are all, these are all positive things that have happened, you know, since then. So I don't know if people, you know, have questions that they want to ask. Yeah. Oh, good. Here's one. Yay. Ask anything. Ask away. Okay. Every man who has slept with me has added to your privilege. This sentence shook me and sank in as the best description of trafficking ever. Do you mind telling us more about this in terms of the impact of trafficking on the psyche? Oh, all right. Trigger warning. If anyone gets uncomfortable, raise your hand. We can stop having the conversation. Okay. Because this is, you know, we can delve pretty deep. Definitely. So I cannot tell you how many people I don't, saying slept with is like the kind way. Right. Rate me. And then what does it do? Okay. So where should I go there? Well, it creates a sense of resilience in the soul for sure. You become a fighter, very creative with your imagination on how to disappear from the pain. But then there's also this level of forgiveness while the act, while like the individuals sharing their energy of pain, because usually it's a lot of pain and pain is hurting. And their anger usually comes with how they're moving, right? You can feel anger. You could feel the test. You could just feel the filthiness. You could just feel the, yeah, because like each person that you slept with or had sex with or they did what they did is like, either it was, you get to see their darkest moments and not only see it, but you get to feel it. And then you get to help heal it. So I think that that's really fascinating when the brain has the capacity to protect itself, but also help heal humanity in a way where like this horrible act is happening. But your soul is like, for some of whatever reason, we're here. And like, I'm sorry, whatever happened to you, right? Like I don't represent their, their demons. So I was going to just say, and I think that that line came from something regarding Gigi that, that you had said that you thought all of a sudden like this represents the privilege you have. So I think not only for Gigi, but just for people in power with money. And I say money not in a way where it's like to loathe because it's a tool and it's a resource and it can be really beautiful. But when it's used to cause harm, right? That's like a privilege. That's, that's like an ego infused privilege. And there's an error about it. And I think that Gigi was harmed too as a kid. He, you know, he was indoctrinated by a grown woman. So he just passed on what he was taught. And in the culture of trafficking and pimping in certain depths, that's what happens. Right? It's, it's in the culture. Yeah. Thank you. I'm going to combine a couple, couple questions here. In the dirty water episode of Ear Hustle, which is, you know, super powerful. And I loved coming to the point in the book where dirty water was brought up and I was like, oh, the connection. But the way that you spoke with LA and, you know, you were getting into his trauma and into his psyche. And we're just wondering like, so have you moved on to, you know, you could be a therapist or are you helping people restorative just, I mean, you, when you were like, why, but why, but why, you know, it just was like, yeah, why, you know. So has helping other people seek restorative justice helped you find inner peace? And are you continuing on that journey? Absolutely. Like I ended up having to kind of like be a therapist for myself since being out in these nine years, because it was a whole different level of trauma. And then reliving old trauma is really bad. It's like, whoa, it's really ugly. And but it's, it's okay. No, I haven't thought about being like a therapist or anything. I think the work that I'm doing allows me an opportunity to bring this kind of narrative and optimum conversation piece to politicians, people who represent the voice folks who are still incarcerated, social workers, district attorneys, anyone who wants to have a conversation about it. You spoke about being able to dance in those darkest moments. I struggle with depression and despair defeats my spirit, which paralyzes them. What guiding, what guiding practices can you share to return hope in the darkness so that she can find the light to dance again? It's to dance. It's to dance. Like I'm creating, taking those ugly monsters that I had like the chaos that I had and synchronizing it. And that's kind of like what I did in prison with choreographing and art and dancing and creating and then just pulling everyone's energy and finding the unity of it was remarkable. The moments of joy. Absolutely. Yeah. So what advice do you have for those of us working in the defense community when it comes to working with men or women who have been trafficked? How can we be more supportive, cause less harm, be trauma informed? Thank you for that. I think that just getting to know the person individually, because we're taught like this blanket approach to folks, but it's really need like I would suggest a tailored approach, relationship, safety. What do you need? And it's okay. Whatever time, safety. Like they ought to be able to know and you, they can tell if you're coming in real open and authentic and if you're just like clinical and doing a job. Survivors of any form of violence are super hyper vigilant and we're like playing, playing, you know, or you just create a space, a safe space. And I promise you, when a person feels safe and they know that they can be vulnerable with you, they'll show it all. From our Zoom audience, we do have a Zoom audience today. As a woman who also survived trafficking, they found it hard to be romantically involved with a man and feel safe. Any tips? Dating tip. A dating tip. I think absolutely, because there's so many different triggers. So many different triggers. Oh gosh. Your partner, the partner has to be willing, open, vulnerable, and aware. No judgment. If judgment comes in, it's going to break the situation because you have to be able to be in a space where you feel safe with that person. And any form of conversation, intimacy, the emotional intimacy is sacred. And once that's developed with a partner, and you know you can be safe immensely emotionally, the intimacy is much more full of love and depth. And it'll hold and it'll sustain. So it really requires both people involved to be able to have the conversations together and not let the physical sexual be the first lead. Thank you. Let's talk a little bit about the process of writing the book. So you mentioned you traveled around and that came up in the book. You both went back to Sarah's hometown and talk about that. Also how you organized the book and how it all came back. Yeah, I mean that was I think the first thing we did. And especially in the beginning, I wanted as best possible to actually, you know, get us close to what it was that I was going to write about. I wanted to understand it because I wanted to try as best possible to wear Sarah's shoes to be able to, you know, to help her to, you know, express the story and to be able to express her story foreign with her. So we did. We went back to her homes. We visited her next door neighbor at one of her homes. We, um, yeah, that was and that was really quite an impactful day. I remember that, you know, going, going there and and but it helped, you know, in the as a writer, it helped me because I could see, I could see it this at the same time you were seeing it. I could see it. I could see your, your physical reaction, you know, as you were driving there in the tension so that I was able to describe, you know, how tightly you were holding the steering wheel and that sort of thing, you know, so you didn't have to tell me I'm holding the steering wheel tightly because I could see it with my own eyes and experience it along with you. So that was very helpful for me as a writer to have that sort of hands-on experience, you know, to what she was going through. And as I said, she was extremely, extremely generous and open with sharing her, her, her, her documents, her, you know, those there report cards. I got to and I got to speak to almost everyone that you'll, that you'll meet in the book. I mean, pretty much many, many of those people I spoke with. I spoke to them. I asked them questions. They helped me with details. And then we would, I would go back and we would share details and, you know, that sort of thing. So that was very, very, very helpful. You know, I mean, I'm a playwright too. So I think that I, what I do is I have to sort of give voice to people when you, when you write a play, you have to be able to sort of see the world through that character's eyes. So, you know, it's something that I, that I do anyway, but you have to really understand the circumstances in a kind of an organic, as organic a way as you can, I think. So, you know, and so as I said, my tiny little experience with trauma, you know, that doesn't even come close gave me a certain understanding also. I think, yeah, you know, I understood, like I had pictures and I wanted to present a slide because I wanted to give you guys like a visual of the home. And to this day, I still go back to Rubido on 34th Street. I go to 52 97 34th Street. I make it, I make it a practice of love and healing to help the pain that is held at that home move because it was remarkable what is what the house is showing. There are rubber snakes, there are eyeballs, there's skulls, there's a werewolf. It's, it's a home. It's a home that's just so deeply haunting that it, it weeps molds from the outside with this dilapidated wood and it's there holding on and it gives me like spiritual chills just thinking about it. And when I go back and I tell it, it's okay, you could go. And what's even more fascinating is when we, Corey and I really quick started this book and I took her there where, okay, so my room on this house, it was a one bedroom, very tiny, everything was all in one spot. So you had the living room, the kitchen, a little piece of plywood door, a bedroom, and then this little tiny bath that had PCP pipes for shower, right? No bath. So that was my bathroom. And so this is a fascinating piece about trauma is that you don't know your threshold of what you can accomplish when you're capped at such a young age with what your environment shows, right? So, so my mom's friend had extended, like it says in the book, my kid extended the room. So this room is there. So I take my bath. Yeah. And so I said, Corey, look, I got out and I started videotaping because this beautiful tree, this tree grew over my bedroom onto the house, this beautiful tree, and it just kind of loved. It was trying to shield. And while we're writing this book and I'm going back and I'm videotaping it, and the next time the trees withered away, it's complete. There's nothing there. It died. And in very short period of time, less than a year, and then it just, the pain that's cramped around my, where I was like locked in this house where this pain, where all this trauma had started. And I thought, my God, if only, only we knew how much energy we leave when we create harm, that it's going to manifest. Yeah. I mean, it says if what happened inside the house is like manifested on the outside of that house now, I've never seen anything like that in my life. It's, it's really, really was shocking. We kind of were like, whoa. And then because Monrovia was another, I mean, it was a different kind of experience. Like you could smell the orange. You could smell it, but that's where Richard Ramirez was. Richard Ramirez came there. To that home. So it's just remarkable. Yeah. It's very, very, it was very, it was very, it was very, I can just, all I can say is that it was a very sort of palpable way of experiencing what it is you're writing, you know, about. So it was helpful. Very spiritual. Very helpful and spiritual. Yeah. And then to be able to speak to people who, who were close to Sarah, you know, I spoke to Mike, I spoke to her father, I spoke to her teacher, I spoke to many people who were close to her. So that was, you know, really, really, and I was able to see like the police reports, to read the trial transcripts, the rits, that all those things. So all of that was very, very, very helpful and just gave me such a wealth of information to be able to really just understand the story in a different kind of, in a very, like three-dimensional way. Yeah. So. Yeah, you definitely did a, both did a great job of bringing each person to life and like seeing what impact that they did have on Sarah. So are you, you're still in contact with Mike then? Yes. Yeah. He's like the one father figure. I mean, he seemed like the one solid person in your life, right? At that time. Yeah. My life has definitely expanded. I have beautiful support system and family members and, you know, spiritual family. So yeah. One, one viewer says that they just wanted to say that ear hustle, the ear hustle episode that you were on was incredibly painful to listen to. And I can only wonder how hardened exhausting it was for you to be in conversation with a person who was in prison for trafficking. Thank you for being brave enough to have that conversation and to let us experience it as well. Oh, absolutely. That's an honor. That's what healing and change looks like. It's like, I mean, and truthfully, if it wasn't for that episode, we probably wouldn't be sitting here, but we might, but we wouldn't be sitting here right now because I heard it and I was like, that woman should write a book. So that was my immediate response to hearing that episode. It was a remarkable, remarkable episode. Everyone should listen to it. It's really episode 13. The podcast is remarkable, but that episode is really something. Absolutely. Super powerful. Are there more questions out there? Let me check my okay. Here you go. Taking your book into CCWF. I have a lot of people I love there too, and I, yeah, I'm curious if there's any plans for you guys to go into CCWF. You know, we would hope, I know that it was sent to, there's a, there's a newspaper that comes out of San Quentin, the San Quentin Journal newspaper there. And the Juan Keynes, one of the journalists there, I think he might be the editor in chief or something. But anyway, he was telling me because I had sent, had the book sent to him because he wanted to read it and review it. And it was grabbed by the, by the prison authorities because it was deemed, you know, something that, that should not be allowed into the prison. And I was like, this is not, I mean, they did eventually, I think the warden overthrew it. So he has it and he's reading it and he is going to do a review. But he's, we were just laughing about it because it was so silly because it was, whoever had grabbed it said it was deemed un, un, I forgot what the word is, but it shouldn't be allowed basically in because it showed a child in sexual circumstances. And I'm like, but that's the whole point of the book. I mean, this is ridiculous, you know, so anyway, it was very silly, but it was overthrown and it's going to be read. But I hope that the prison will allow, it's still in hardback too. So sometimes some prisons won't allow a hardback book. I'm hoping it'll come out in paperback because it'll be easier to, you know, and that's not, that's the, you know, behest of the publisher. So hopefully it will be put out in paperback because then it will be allowed in more prisons. One thing I've noticed in doing these campaigns is I worked with the California Coalition of Women Prisoners and a couple of other women organizations and the unity that you gather from other women prisoners is like definitely different than the men's prison. There's like a sisterhood that comes out and this like, they got each other kind of like thing. Can you talk about that? We've got the example right here. Proof. I mean, I just think that there's a wholesomeness in relationship building as opposed to developing, I don't know, I got to be careful what I say sometimes. This is really a wholesomeness. I think that when you build relationship, the persons, they know if you're being real with them or if you're trying to use them or make, you know, you got to be careful with that. And I think that the women at CCWF because you know, that was my community for so long, 19 years, and I had grown up there and then the folks that I met, like there is a sisterhood, but it's also a very honorable one in our relationships. And so it's a lifetime. There's no ending in that love right there, you know what I mean? And it's not like it's like outsiders aren't welcome. It's not that at all, it's like people who want to come in and re-exploit aren't welcome. But you want to come in and sit with us and allow us in in a way where it's really loving and safe or good. But you got to be mindful of how it's done. All right. And on that note, there are some, I should have mentioned this at the top of the event, but there are resources and I put some flyers back there for rain. It's a sexual assault organization, hotline number, info, and we are the library. Any librarian can help you and you know, we're all very, it's a safe place. So any last questions for our amazing author and co-author? All right. Thank you so much. And there are books in the back. We can still, you can still purchase them and I'll be jump back there in just a moment. And I think Sarah and Cori are willing to sign the books today. And I thank you all for being here as part of this one city one book campaign. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Cori Thomas, Sarah Cousin, everybody.