 So, welcome to this community conversation. I'm just thrilled today to have two widely known, widely respected leaders in higher education. Today we have President Freeman Robowski III, Dr. Robowski is the president of UMBC. And he works closely with Jack Seuss, the CIO at UMBC, who is widely known contributor to the EDUCAUSE community and recently won the EDUCAUSE Leadership Award. So let's get started. So anybody spending any time with the two of you together will be struck as I am by the chemistry and actually you use the word once between the two of you. And I want to think about the evolution of your relationship. Was that chemistry always there because you know the secret language of math majors? Or did it evolve and did you, was there some intentionality of figuring out how to work effectively together? For me, one of the interesting aspects of this is that we came together at a difficult time. You know, where we really began working heavily together was when we were implementing the PeopleSoft project at UMBC. And Freeman used to joke and call it people hard, not people soft. But this was one where we went through some challenges. And I think that going through challenges, you learn the middle of someone. And I think he grew comfortable that I was willing to take criticism but not take it personally. And to use that criticism to say, yeah, there's problems. We'll work with you to fix them. We'll roll up our sleeves. But that effort of working and also watching him absorb criticism. I mean, one of my goals with the PeopleSoft project was is he was going through a really tough time as well from the campus. And I wanted to make sure that I did everything in my power to be making whatever that time was going to be as short as possible. And so we were really trying to double down to be resolving whatever issues were there. The notion of trust is critical here, that Jack had built such good will with faculty and other colleagues on campus and people trusted him. And his approach was always one of calmness, analysis, understanding. And people knew he and his team were doing all they could, but he had to also make it clear it wasn't just about people in OIT, that these matters in PeopleSoft implementation were like matters in auditing, it's not just about the business office, it's about all of us. And that is the point that Jack was making and that he helped me to make as I worked to develop language with him that we would use with the campus that said this is a multi-year process, that there will be mistakes, that we'll get knocked down and we'll get back up. But what he did that was most important. He never got angry, John. Jack never got angry. I could be a little volatile sometimes. And he had a way that same calm look that he has right now, but he always had. And his message was, in one way that we'll get through this, it takes time, we'll get through this. I have a saying, those the gods was to destroy, they first make angry. Not that from somebody from years ago, but he had that ability, even when people wrote nasty letters, the mean spirited letters, the emotional letters or in a meeting of town hall or remaining calm, and it always inspired me to be better. I think for CIOs, especially those that are reporting to the president, one of the key things that you have to recognize is just how busy they are with their time. And I view my job as making sure that as much as possible, I'm going to keep the day-to-day from hitting Dr. Robowski. Given what you've learned about what works well, what's your advice, Jack, for CIOs who don't enjoy this luxury with their president? And Dr. Robowski, what about you for presidents who don't enjoy the chemistry that you do? How about start with Jack? What really helped me was getting to work with him on some of his speeches and then especially when we ended up doing some articles for EDUCAUSE and working with him on the thought process of how he thinks about a topic and how he goes about organizing his thinking really gave me insight into how he processes information and how I can better give him the kinds of information that he needs when he needs it in order to be able to make better decisions. And so this effort of working collaboratively with a president was just a great example. And I would encourage you, any CIO, if they get the opportunity to work with their president that they take advantage of that opportunity and because it is such a great way of learning how they think and learning how you can be better at helping them. The advice I would have for presidents, and they would know this, but I would say it, is get a chance to talk to that CIO with some of his staff, for example, or with other people because you can learn more about how to build chemistry between two people when you see the chemistry among a group of people and you get to know more about the strengths of each person and what works to bring and to build on that relationship. Perhaps the most important thing I would say to a president is allow yourself to be vulnerable and open to learn. I needed to say to Jack, even when I was making the decision about moving him under me or to be right there directly reporting to me, I should say, when he was, when people on both sides, administrative and academic wanted to have the computing person under them on the top, I needed to understand why it was important to have this one-on-one relationship and it had to do with not having things filtered for me, having me responsible for understanding more about the significant role of technology and third, especially important that I came to understand we don't bring the technology in after we figured out what we want to do that that person needs to be at the table to bring up that perspective, not just of technology but of the broader perspective one gets as a result of working in technology that can help across areas and that could never have happened if I didn't have that key person, in this case Jack, right there with me before meetings, during meetings and after meetings as we went through different challenging times and times to make ourselves better.