 I was thrust into an environment the people I met were actually for the most part really lovely but I think I also had no clue what I was getting into um I don't think you possibly really can at that age yeah my thing was I thought the vice president was great we had a lovely chat I if anyone had sat in on our interview you would have understood instantly why we clicked over the things that we were discussing in in the book and my goal my theory was what I'm writing speeches for him he's great um this is gonna be fun yeah but yeah it was it was a lot at a very young age I still feel super young and like I think questions about my competence um being the youngest or one of the youngest people in lots of these spaces I think always come like crop up in the back of my mind yeah um yeah and they definitely did that I think they still do even today. Ore Ugunbi is an orphan journalist and co-host of the award-winning podcast The Intelligence by The Economist. Despite a parent-athlete figure out Ore speaks about her difficulties on her journey of pushing life to new levels of excellence. What really stood out to me was how she highlights the importance of never settling when it comes to your potential by embracing new challenges and going beyond what feels comfortable to you. I'm Claude Williams the founder of Dream Nation and this is the Behind the Dreams podcast. Hey, hi. How are you doing? Good, how are you? Good. Thank you for coming to my podcast today. No worries, I'm happy to be here. Obviously we had the conversation not too long ago and from that the thing that really stood out to me about you is you've had such a unique pathway to success and that's what I'd love to explore for the state's episodes. Cool, cool. I'm kind of flattered really but you're cool. So I'm hoping we're going to be able to touch on some of the amazing things that you've done because in all honesty when we that when we're actually looking up looking you up and looking at your bio it's like how have you been able to accomplish all this already it's just outstanding. Thank you. But with that you kind of had this ability to change your goals and your dreams quite often can you talk to us a little bit about that? Yeah, I think when I talk about being an author so taking up space came out in 2019 whenever I talk about the book and kind of the process of writing I always tell people that I never thought I was going to be a writer it just was not one of the things that was on the checklist it wasn't really even one of my ambitions but I think it's a real like testament to how much like my dreams have changed since even when I was in secondary school and I think I began to get a sense of like what I wanted to do when I was in school I thought I wanted to go into law I'd watched a bit of suits and I just kind of like the idea of like being really argumentative in front of a judge kind of sort of quickly realized that most of law especially like where there seems to be a decent amount of money doesn't actually really look like that but also I went to do a summer school and I tried to get into the law kind of class of the summer school and it was full for some reasons I was like okay second best option I'll do international relations and I absolutely fell in love so much so that by the time I was done with the summer school I was like I'm gonna apply to university to do something to do with international relations and politics I learned a lot about neocolonialism and it really really it really made me angry but it also I thought that was my that was my moment of awakening that was my I suddenly became woke I was learning all this stuff about france for non and about like what the world had done to black africa and I was just very very on fire but also clearly wanted to learn a lot more about this and I was like okay I'm abandoning law so before you go on go on for those that don't know what is neocolonialism okay so pretty much the idea that independence was only really in name alone so countries that were colonized and then work granted their independence by their colonizers are actually still very much ruled by the ideas that were established in colonial times and like entrenched in those times so psychologically francophone writes a lot about the psychological impact of colonialism and how actually real freedom requires something much more cathartic including violence for like black people to actually be free from the ideas that have colonized us and he writes a lot about the yeah the psychological colonialism which I just thought was really interesting I learned a lot about the world in basically a span of two weeks and I had to change my whole plan and at 16 I had quite a clear plan for my life I was going to study law I was going to qualify in in the UK as a lawyer then I was going to move back to Nigeria qualify there and basically work in law become a Nigerian senator at about 45 and then decide if I wanted to do anything more so my life was planned out from 16 to 45 but it all started me doing law I had to kind of throw that out the window so not many 16 years old house that's a literally what 30 year plan 40 year plan for the love how did that happen um I think I was quite inspired by my dad my dad has just lived a very cool life um interestingly his life also he switched plans and roots quite a few times but as a kid I was used to ask him why he wouldn't go into politics in Nigeria and get really frustrated when I just I just wasn't really satisfied with his answers oh politics is a dirty game oh you know so I kind of saw it it's like well he didn't do it I need to take up this mantle and my logic was law will get me this kind of nice career that sets me up nicely too and I knew the difference between being a senator and like being in like the executive enough to know that I wanted to be in the senate to actually change laws and not necessarily to be president so in my head I was like I'm going to do lots of law I'm going to become what's called a senior advocate of Nigeria kind of like the Nigerian equivalent to being a member of the queen's council um and then I was going to do this thing but yeah law went out the window I then told myself I would do a law conversion at uni law went out the window again because I decided actually I didn't want to do that at all um I didn't get into any training contracts would let me do a law conversion basically for free yeah um I didn't even get interviews for them I was really upset but I kind of embraced the pivot um okay well if I'm not getting this I'm going to do something else and then I wrote this article called a letter to my fresher self which really was like just a well-crafted rant like I was really angry I'd been at Cambridge for I think two-ish years at this point um and just felt like I kept not getting things that I felt like I deserved or had worked for I missed out on the student election which really upset me because I felt like I lost to someone who had not proven themselves um I hadn't gotten all these jobs and I was just feeling very kind of lost and very aware of like what role race and my gender might have possibly played into that and I wrote this letter to my fresher self and the article just goes crazy um and then I'm like okay well maybe I want to write maybe I want to write more like features so the goal was never actually to write news the goal was always maybe I want to write features um and I looked into going to Columbia journalism school for a master's more to figure out whether or not I wanted to do journalism because I basically spoke to my dad and it was a very emotional conversation because he was very upset with me for telling him that I was going to do law and then not going to do it for undergrad okay I'll do a conversion now it's time for me to do the conversion I don't want to do that anymore um but where was that sense of being upset come and form in terms of you changing your your goals I think he again I think he kind of felt like he could have been a great lawyer I don't think he I don't think he'll admit to that but I think deep down he sees law as like a very prestigious thing a lot of Nigerian parents do by the way it's law engineering doctor like there's no there's not much um I don't think people value careers outside of those nearly as much yeah um and so it was my dad sees me as quite clever he always you know kind of goes on about how proud he is of me and I think for him the pinnacle of that pride would have been to go and do something law related so he was very upset um but I was putting my foot down and I wasn't doing it I just decided it was not going to happen how was that in terms of because I'm sure you knew that this was going to be a difficult thing for him what was that like for you to I guess go against your your parents world for you yeah it was tough so it wasn't my parents my mom I think my mom had gotten a sense a little earlier that I might be backing out of the law thing um we just kind of didn't really address it until I really had to because he just kept asking like how it was going I got my uncle involved my dad's brother and I spoke to him first because um he also had a kid who had made a career pivot and my dad had been really kind of pivotal in speaking to him about her case so I kind of hope that my uncle would do the same for me and he did um he really did actually help um and yeah that's he's been my uncle he's kind of shown up like all the graduations like he was he was very much on side so I knew he would also speak up for me I needed to make sure my mom was on side and I also need to make sure that my plan my plan B was also pretty clear um in many ways actually wish I had delayed the conversation until my plan B was a bit clearer but he helped me with the plan B so it also ended up being fine he was the one who suggested well if you do want to do this journalism thing you have to go to Columbia like that's literally where they decide the polices like there's nowhere else so you get into Columbia and then like and luckily I did um and it was fine but it was um yeah it was tearful I cried because he was just so angry um and even after I got my degree from Columbia he was like you know there's this anchor on CNN and she has a law degree I'm like drop it man drop it's not happening um but yeah I think all those kind of little pivots and then finishing Columbia and getting a job in government um not in governance but I was working for the federal government of Nigeria and even that itself was a pivot because yeah I said I was going to journalism yeah how did he end up in the Nigerian government yeah it was the book it was the book uh taking up space did did did a couple numbers um and that also was kind of not really in the planning that I didn't know we would be getting a book deal after university um which meant that while I was at Columbia I was also writing this book which was amazing and very fulfilling um I'd been mentoring quite a bit when I was in uni and really enjoyed that and doing things with like trying to get more black kids into Cambridge so it was just writing it and then being able to write it with my best friend who I had done so much of this stuff with while I was at uni was just very very fulfilling um and yeah the book made it into the hands of the Vice President of Nigeria which was funny because I went for the interview and thought oh I have to show him my book like maybe it's going to help me like get this job and I walk into the interview and he has a copy of the book in his hand already and I'm like oh gee it's okay he's actually like we're like talking about the book like he's clearly actually read it um it's interesting because one thing that I've always been told is that nowadays books are the best possible business card that you can have but with your story I'm hearing firstly you had a plan as a 16 year old yeah um you went to Cambridge University which you just glazed over the fact that that happened as well but when to Cambridge University um you managed to secure a book deal um after doing some important advocacy work at your university raising awareness for this issue and then you found yourself at the um government in Nigeria that's a lot why what I'm guessing was around 22-23 or so yeah I started uh yeah I moved back to Abuja when I was 22 um and that was a big deal at the time because I was very aware that I was the youngest person in literally the whole government um I think someone actually points out to me later that I was the youngest I think the youngest political appointee ever at that age um I think that was hard I was thrust into an environment the people I met were actually for the most part really lovely the people I worked alongside every day um were really nice I feel like really took me under their wing but I think I also had no clue what I was getting into um I don't think you possibly really can at that age yeah my thing was I thought the vice president was great we had a lovely chat I if anyone had sat in on our interview you would have understood instantly why we clicked um over the things that we were discussing in in the book and Michael my theory was what I'm writing speeches for him he's great um this is gonna be fun yeah um but yeah it was it was a lot at a very young age uh yeah I still feel super young and like not even uh I still wonder how um it's not like the general imposter syndrome stuff but I think questions about my competence um being the youngest or one of the youngest people in lots of these spaces I think always come like crop up in the back of my mind yeah um yeah and they definitely did that I think they still do even today well I find really interesting about your story is that it's very much so the pathway of what I try to teach people about being a practical dreamer you had a belief you had something that you was important to you and then you took action consistently um and I feel like going back to the original I guess theme around changing your changing your goals changing your dreams sometimes we don't know what our pathways are going to be in the end uh but yet like diet taken action by being open by being reflective being um uh like being flexible things available to you it meant that you ended up in this amazing position but kind of as you was just saying yes it's a little bit above where your age would typically be and then you have to deal with these feelings of imposter syndrome how did you do that I think leaning on past successes has definitely helped um I have to remind myself that if I've been if I was able to do that before then I can do this that thing felt super hard to me then and now I you know I overcame that I think that definitely has helped um I think also just trying to focus on the value that I add in these different environments has been quite important sometimes my youthful exuberance can be an asset in places that are like very old and stodgy so I try and focus on that for example um what can my energy bring that no one else can and instead of basically using how I'm different or how I'm yeah let's stick with different how I'm different instead of viewing that as something that uh puts me a step behind anyone or or uh makes me any less worthy of being in a space seeing it as it's something that can add value to this space so when I uh I guess Cambridge we could probably set that for anyone who's working within our society at the time our value add was we're going to be the people who open the doors for all the a whole bunch of other black people who are going to come and the number of black people in Cambridge now is to the point that like that in African Caribbean society is almost redundant because there are so many sub societies of like different black students um which I guess is kind of the goal right that's how much of a value add like we were all able to be there when it comes to even the book like there's nothing that's been written like this before do you think people will read it well no actually because there's nothing that's been written like this before it's exactly why people really need to read this in government yes I'm this young person who I speak too much English I I'm also very obviously an activist at heart which I guess kind of also became a challenge as I went on but how can I use that to my uh benefit and like to add value okay when I'm writing speeches especially speeches where like the vice president would have to go and speak to young people what were the things that I can add to show that like he's actually in tune with like the pulse of younger people um where can I just add like a bit of flair that only I could possibly add and I think about that even in my job today like I'm at the economist now and it's just um the economist obviously a very old institution but constantly thinking like how can I make sure that when we're covering this thing like we cover a little bit better or we are even covering this thing at all um and and that you know we're able to speak on things that maybe wouldn't otherwise because like you have people like me now you can like offer a bit of guidance on that yeah so yeah the imposter syndrome is still there I just try and flip it so even with all of that said I'm picking up like this and the current of so much confidence in yourself which is like really beautiful to hear I know there's the imposter syndrome but there's also the other side of it of this like almost this feels unshakable confidence how do you go about developing that uh I'm really proud to say you say that I think um I don't think confidence or even building it is is a very straightforward thing uh I think I have been blessed with lots of really great support systems like I said earlier like I never doubted like my parents have always been super proud of me um even from my friends my family I've constantly had like positive reinforcement around me um I moved to Nigeria when I was seven I think that was a very key part of my confidence from like a racial perspective um in that I didn't have to deal with those feelings of being othered constantly um and of being a minority or people uh having certain kinds of prejudices obviously that come with being like the only black person in space I didn't have those for very formative years of my life because I was living in Nigeria I think that was very important um but I think yeah I've just had I've been blessed with very very good support systems I also think um like when I say confidence is not straightforward I'm good at talking about this kind of stuff I'm good at dealing with the professional kind of uh things that lead towards like the academic like I I know how to perform confidence in those kinds of spaces I know how to do things like this like I'm good at speaking that's because I used to debate loads as a kid like I'm I'm good at the presentational stuff I think in terms of like social and personal stuff there were definitely uh years where like academically and like professionally things looked good but like socially and personally my confidence was very much like on the floor and there were lots of internal insecurities that I think I battled with that you just didn't have to see because I was good at keeping up a good face um and so I say that because I think it's very easy to like do things like this do lots of public speaking and and or podcast even in writing and and these kinds of spaces and come across as confident because I'm well practiced in this stuff now but the more personal things like that doesn't mean I'm not battling other kinds of insecurities and other lapses and confidence which actually are just as important um and and I think often people ignore in these kinds of discussions so in in taking up space we get an opportunity to be quite vulnerable about the fact that I really struggled in my first year for example but you wouldn't have been able to tell because I was very good at like outwardly kind of saving face being really social and like out there seemingly um but like actually on a more like kind of subliminal mental level I was really struggling and just didn't have the words to even articulate that to people who are closest to me do you still feel like you have to perform confidence yeah uh my job I literally hosted a podcast I think yes um but I think some of it is also like faking it till you make it like I I definitely think I've become more confident fully in the past uh like couple of years yeah um really randomly I saw some pictures of myself from a wedding uh that was a few weeks ago and I was dancing so much and like it's such a minor thing but for the longest time I used to be so conscious of how I look when I dance um to the point that like it it was definitely a detriment to like how much I enjoyed myself but I've just realized that I've become more not even confident in that I'm a good dancer but just less less worried and less insecure about some of those things I think really used to bother me before in the same way that I said that you know Nigeria was great for my confidence like as a kid um and thinking about you know like not having a chip on my shoulder and not having these like feelings of othering that I think can be really bad for your confidence Nigeria also has kind of social pressures of its own that are very much uh social centered that I think I did struggle with on the other hand so great for my confidence in some ways terrible and others and I think I'm noticing the ways in which the in the past few years that I've kind of been able to actually come out of my shell yeah um like in private yeah and firstly I really relate with the whole dancing thing like anyone that knows me knows that that is one of my biggest struggles um goodwill in next year that will be resolved as well I believe it me thank you it's important um but with that said I know what I'm doing to I guess build up confidence in different areas of my life and you spoke about the environment that you had like friends family etc that supported you but you've also spoken to me before around things that you've done that actually helped you build up your confidence in yourself like the way you think about things in that nature could you tell us a bit about that so okay for example and I've realized just I don't think this is as normal the thing as maybe I thought it was I speak to myself a lot and I think how you speak to yourself and how you um just the ways in which you affirm yourself I think are quite important when I was prepping for my Cambridge interview and I give this advice to people who are prepping for interviews all the time there's only so much time you can do more interviews or prepare with people who actually understand the content that you're talking about a lot of the time I was explaining concepts to myself to make sure I could explain it if I was in a situation like my interview and I would have to and I would stand in front of the mirror and I would just literally speak to myself about this topic and it sounds kind of crazy but it's it's the very kind of practical stuff that you can do in private that will help you and you're trying to speak in public for example when I was um 11 when I was in primary school I was head girl this was a huge deal for me um and head girls have to give this valedictory speech at my this is my primary school in in Nigeria and I've written this speech weeks before and I practiced it and every day I would come home from school and with my mom and dad in the living room I'd have to practice this speech um I think this is where some of those habits were like built so I would practice this speech I would get really really good at it small feedback here and there of you know no you have to make sure when you come on this part this part okay I'm ready I'll do it again do it again lots of practice on the day I gave the speech really well but I also burst in tears for the end because I was so sad to be leaving the school um it was super emotional it was amazing I literally still have parents to this day who see me and remember this speech where I cried I was 11 years old um but those kinds of you know just that practicing of like getting used to doing things in private to prepare for things that you're going to do in public um even when I used to write speeches for the vice president I wasn't the one giving the speeches but I would always make sure like stand up when you give them for example now before I go into podcasts similarly I'm going through all like my points and things in my brief before I go into the actual recording I think I'm just reminding yourself that like you're that girl you know I think that's quite important before you go into all the public spaces and have to do all that with my debates similarly I was always practice like at home going through those arguments in my head tease them out with people who are close to you but oftentimes don't rely on anyone else just get in front of a mirror and do it yourself I think you so that's an important lesson right there and it's around what we do in private we'll eventually show up in public so a lot of time people have those negative thoughts that they're saying oh I can't do this or I'm not good at that or I'm XYZ and sooner or later we will show up in their performance whereas it seems like you're very deliberate around you know what even when no one else is around like I'm not going to get any like accolades or phrase or whatever I'm still going to be super intentional about what I do and how I speak to myself 100% and it's it's similarly when you're doing that you even become aware of like what your flaws are for example small things like I'm trying to say like a lot less because like I said I'm having to do things like be on a podcast where I have to speak clearly and it's also just annoying for editors you have to crop this stuff out all the time that's something that I've become aware of but also have been able to curb because I practice in private on my own so yeah it also makes you aware of your flaws I think it's partly also why I speak so loudly because I'm so used to speaking where people don't have to listen like I'm just in my house speaking to myself all the time which also is not always the vibe and sometimes I actually need to speak of it more softly but it's just yeah it helps you pick up on things that you're great at and get better at those things and hone those skills but similarly like it makes you aware of like where you do actually need more practice and where you do actually just need to keep going and things aren't maybe ready for the world yet similarly with writing it's like drafting and redrafting it's kind of the same approach but like doing it speaking to yourself I feel like I have found a lot more effective for you now that makes sense and it reminds me of a lesson my coach used to always say which is um practice makes permanent not perfect so whether we practice the good or the bad that is what's going to stick but on a super practical level now in terms of if people want to like work on how they talk to themselves and the first things can they do that through do you do that through writing or is it always spoken or are there other ways that people can try that out it's a mix it's a mix I do go through phases of journaling um but even when I journal even when I write and this comes to uh writing the book but also just writing like articles for work I I feel like I write how I speak and I think it's just my preferred kind of medium is like I said like the whole like kind of talking to myself and and uh uh going through things verbally helps me then in my writing because I try and write in a way that I think I can communicate clearly so my writing I think comes across as quite conversational because it's how I'm thinking through things in my head I always yeah I feel like I'm constantly talking to myself I think practically it's one of the best things that you can do not just in terms of being a public speaker because it then in turn will help you write more clearly um because you're conscious of how things actually sound and are being communicated to someone else because you're hearing them um I think that's quite important okay so you've got your book you've got your degree you've got a great job of the economist you've been already like worked with a vice president of Nigeria you've done all these amazing things already do you feel like you've reached your peak I don't like to think about one single peak I think at each of those points and even probably a few points in between I felt like I've hit some kind of new peak and I find that personally to be a more helpful way to think about the next steps because if not you just end up on some big low chasing a past moment like when I got into Cambridge that was huge for me for my family for even the people who didn't believe in me um that was a huge moment but if I had seen that as my peak and I think they're definitely people who do like you're like 56 years old and still talking about when you got into Cambridge I'm just a little bit like come on now like surely you've had other things that you're more proud of um but if I'd stopped there I don't think I would have been nearly uh as proud or as grateful for the other opportunities that came as well taking up space obviously was a huge uh a huge peak like getting a book published it turns to was huge um but again couldn't have ended there like I think I see them as many peaks and I think it's more helpful to see it that way just because if not you're constantly chasing something that's already gone and I think even now yeah being the economist amazing there are people who hear my voice every day amazing but at the same time like I'm like this this can't be the peak yeah this can't be the peak there's got to be there's got to be more um and I think I think that's a more a healthier way um for thinking about achievements because if not you you reach something and you will feel it's not about feeling uh unsatisfied or like unfulfilled I've taken in each of those moments I think I've really given myself like room to rest a little bit to actually sit in it and enjoy it which is important um but part of that flexibility part of part of that changing of your plan that like we were speaking about earlier comes with realizing that this is not you can't say all your whole life is built up to this moment what about the next moment yeah um I think you should always hope that there's going to be even better ones around the corner and yeah not just hope for them but work towards them yeah as I always been a linear journey for you so has you have you gone from one peak to the next and let's keep going up or has your path really different tough one um I don't think it's been linear um I think if anything that's also why changing the plan feels so useful because it feels like I'm on a completely new path every single time and I don't have to think too much about how it compares or how it progresses or doesn't from the kind of bit that I was on before um my 30 year plan for myself that I have when I was 16 was definitely very linear and I think because I mean that plan kind of had to go in the bin quite early on I've just kind of done away with those um not done away with them completely but I've I try not to be bound by thinking about things in terms of more like linear even progressive steps and instead trying to appreciate all the kind of little steps for what they have been so I think I think that's tough because when people ask you what's next most times they're thinking about what's next in terms of where you currently are like in this kind of more linear journey um when we wrote the book everyone's asking where's book two who says you want to write book two for taking up space who says you even want to write another book at all who says you're even going to write another book together but there's this assumption you write one book and it's because you're going to write five or ten in your life or career um again probably also an assumption that when I started working in government I was a special assistant I would go on to be a senior special assistant and then hopefully at this and a special a special advisor and then it all didn't happen um and I'm fine with that um and even now being like the economist and I think I'm sure people and people do ask me all the time like what's next I don't know I actually have no idea um and that's kind of because I've had to kind of free myself from these long linear kind of progressive looking plans for my life and realizing that I actually I can do many things um and trying to be free and like freed by that thought that I can't do many things and they don't have to be sequential they don't have to be progressive doesn't have to come one after the other or one one thing doesn't have to necessarily be better than the thing I did before it's just different yeah it's just different that's such a once again really helpful idea because I've been there myself entrepreneurship board roles whatever it might be where okay it looks like this is the next natural progression within that and sometimes you can fall into that trap for yourself or even worse when you let other people trap you there exactly so allowing yourself to have that freedom of whatever it is it's going to be different and it will be what it is when you get there yeah literally so throughout your journey you've spoken around like you've worked with the uh vast president you worked with your co-author to that this book and you worked with groups of people to bring these projects laugh at Cambridge and other places and it feels like collaboration is a really important idea and theme in your life like would you say that's always been the case so actually yes and I think I've been surprised by how much like partnership working with other people collaboration um has been such keep up my journey because I even just kind of like growing up um I always hated like group projects and I think part of why I hated things like group projects was because not in an arrogant way but I always just felt like if I was just given space to get on with this on my own like I would be able to do this like perfectly fine um that's kind of a harmful idea because you kind of close yourself off to the fact that there are actually people out there who are also better than you um at the things things that you're you're doing and I also just think because that it's so clear to me now that at every at every peak uh kind of that I mentioned at every single point it's never been just about me so when it was in terms of getting into Cambridge for example um I had a very very good um mentor I didn't even think he would have called myself my mentor because he was kind of just assigned to me but he was the person who was doing the mock interviews with me the way it kind of worked up at my school you if you were a scholar you were kind of you went into this like Oxbridge club but you could also go if you weren't a scholar but no one was really putting on money on anyone who wasn't a scholar but this was the guy who was my mentor and he when everyone else was just having a couple mock interviews he was having more with me I think to the point in my last mock interview he literally made me cry like kind of sad but like at the same time I cried so that I wouldn't cry in the real interview and if I didn't have people like him behind me there's no way I would have been pushed to the point um of actually being able to be comfortable in my interview and like and making it when I was in um in Cambridge had I not met Chelsea one because just obviously us writing taking our space together but before that even working together as the African Caribbean society there's no one else that I I mean at the time anyway there's genuinely no one else I feel like I could have that was matching like the work ethic and like the passion that I had for these things that I wanted to do but you meet someone who is not only giving you that but giving you way more than even you feel like you're putting into it um and it makes working with other people not just easier but also really really additive to your life so yes she was my best friend she was my support system because she's my best friend but also she was my accountability partner she was like my kind of co-pilot when it came to everything context concerning society and eventually my co-author like the thought of writing another book on my own without Chelsea is just difficult because I don't have like that person similarly when I went to um work in government it's because someone put my name forward and suggested someone got my book to him um I even like my job with the Economist again people putting your names in rooms where you're not in them um and so collaboration even doesn't I don't think it necessarily has to look like oh working in a big fancy team I think it's also just been working with people appreciating people um also opening yourself up to people as well um telling people when you have like specific challenges as well so they know where they can kind of meet your weaknesses exactly exactly meet your weaknesses which I feel like yeah Chelsea was there's many ways in which Chelsea has has done that for me um but I just feel like none of none of the things I've done or accomplished I've done on my own and I think that realization is very important because if not you you kind of um you end up thinking that you can do all these things on your own and also you end up feeling super weighed down when things maybe aren't necessarily moving for you or you think that you're in a just generally quite a stagnant point it's not just just only you like actually reach out to the people who are around you um and really lean on those support systems I mentioned support systems earlier as well because again all this confidence that I feel like I have now like learned to have when it comes to public speaking and also just generally doing things in more public spaces has come from the fact that I have had people behind me the whole way so yeah it's it's just surprising to me because I think I considered myself a super independent I don't need anyone I can do everything on my own kind of person but at each at each point I've become so much more aware of just how much I really have relied independent on the people around me yeah for whatever success it is I'm celebrating in that moment so yeah you need people such a beautiful mentality or as they often say team what makes the dream work yes or you've been absolutely amazing guest you are a powerhouse you're doing amazing things in the world around us and I know your future peaks are going to be even more impressive and I'm looking forward to seeing it I asked my guest or one final question before we leave which is simply who asked you think should be on our podcast in the future I really think you should speak to Chelsea and to Jeanette I've mentioned Chelsea many times in this conversation Chelsea has a sister called Jeanette she also has a brother called Louis I don't know how many people you can possibly fit on this couch to be honest um if you think I'm a powerhouse I genuinely think you need to meet them um you I I've known Chelsea now since I was 18 and I am consistently again and again just in awe of the things that she's able to do um the things that she has done and I also mentioned Jeanette Jeanette is also just happens to be my agent because she's basically my big sister too um but in terms of also just understanding that it's okay to have many dreams be good at many things use your confidence in many ways um and a reminder that my kind of pathway to success isn't necessarily linear isn't necessarily what everyone else expects of me um and there's you can possibly be good at many many things um I feel like they've all taught me a lot but I think yeah you need to get Chelsea on this couch and then you also need to get Jeanette and Louis on this couch trust me when you have them all here you'll understand why I say that they're powerhouses sounds good now I'll definitely talk to every Sawyer and see if we can make that happen you should alright thank you so much thank you and I look forward to seeing where your journey takes you thank you so much having me thank you for tuning in to today's episode we release a new episode every Sunday so make sure that you subscribe and follow us so that you never miss out if you'd like some more inspiration while you wait for the next new episode then check out the recommendation above don't forget to follow us on social media and you can send us a question or dilemma that you'd like us to answer on the podcast this is crew Williams you've been watching behind the dreams and we look forward to seeing you at the next Dream Nation events