 So we hear the ID TechEx and who are you? I am Maciej Wołoszka and I am from INURU, a company with Berlin based. We are a manufacturer of printed OLEDs, which are printed on air using industrial print heads. So you do printed OLED? Yes. Industrial print heads? Yes. What does that mean? So it does mean that when you have screens, Samsung screens or LG screens, they are made by a very expensive equipment in the vacuum. They waste a lot of materials. The equipment costs billions, which are the last production line by LG cost billions of dollars. And we just use print heads, which are much, much cheaper in order. Can I print this in my HP printer? Not yet, but we can help you with this. Not yet? Yeah, but we just use print heads, which are used to print posters. Konika Minota. Yes, exactly. These kind of things, right? Exactly. Just pro printers. Yeah. So like industrial print heads, not the... What do you need? You put the OLED material in there or something? Yeah. You print one layer, dry it, another layer, dry it. Then you just make a top contact and then... It's just segmented, right? You can't do like a whole display that has what you call it active metrics or something. We are working on this. You can. Yeah. Is that... Just like matter of having nice substrate instead of, you know, just one pixel. This is just one pixel. Like from going from one pixel to a matrix, it's not so difficult, yeah? Nice. And hi. So who are you? Hi, I'm Alexandra and I'm working at HCB, Humboldt Central Berlin, an innovation lab called High Sprint. Can we open this up? I think we can open. Can we open? Sophie? You have the key? Yeah. Yeah. So we are doing printable photovoltaics. At the moment, hybrid perovskies are one of the materials which can be easily scaled and printed. In principle, what we are trying to do is to bring lab scale to larger scale by using inject printer. So these are... Can you grab one of these to show? For example? So this is printed photovoltaic? Yeah. So in principle, what we can do, we can print a solar cell using inject printer. And using different inks, we can also do different band gaps, which means that you can do pretty colors. So you can do a solar cells which say your logo or your, I don't know, some sort of label, you know, your name. And that's going to be working like a solar cell. But it cannot be very high efficiency, right? So at the moment on a lab scale, small devices performing with the 23%, which is very similar to silicon. It's similar? It's very similar. To the best solar cells? Yes. This is even higher efficiency on a lab scale than the silicon. The problem is then when you scale it, at the moment we are working on it quite hard. And so far we have efficiency around 15%, but in general by the end of the year we're planning to do 10 by 10 and bring efficiency to also 15%. And using together this with silicon, we can do modules with the tandem devices. We can do what? We can do tandem devices with the silicon and perovskites combining their efficiency. So you need to put some perovskite in there? Yeah. Is that standard people use that in solar cells or not? Not yet. This is very new material. It's basically been discovered long time ago, but first time implementation in solar PV was done in 2009. And since then we went from 2% to 23%. And can you show, is this also the kind of stuff you're doing, these things here? Which ones? What's behind here? This high sprint logo? So this is just examples. I would say this is more interesting example. So what is that? So basically this is our logo printed in a different materials. You can see that these are different colors. These are not just pretty nice inks. These are actual material which can be used as absorber in solar cell. And we can print it in a logo. So you print a logo and it's actually a solar cell? Yeah, it can be a solar cell. At the moment it's printed on a glass, but it can be also printed on a conductive layer. Put metal contact and you can have a solar cell. But for example, this and this, it doesn't work, right? You need to have a kind of thread going through or? So you have to have like a metal contact on top. And at the moment these are just showcase printed samples. But we can do a real device. So how does a metal contact look like? It will be like a line? Yeah. It's not transparent. You can do semi-transparent. So for example, this company, they do this semi-transparent silver inks. And if you print it on top, you can also have semi-transparent solar cells. Like I did a video with them before. I think one of these, right, is just transparent. Yeah, we can put it on top of ourselves. So that's why you are, are you partners? What is the, how old is Innovation Lab? What is that? Yeah. So Hamholtz, Central Berlin, this is a research institute in Berlin. And this is a part of Hamholtz Association in Germany. This is a large organization which consists of different research facilities across the whole Germany. And Innovation Lab called Heismund is one lab which is collaboration between different industrial partners and also Hamholtz Association. So if you partner together, let's say. Yeah. So you have OLED display with the solar cell. Yeah. And with this substrate, what do you call it? Conductive. Conductive layer. Yeah. Can you hold it all in one package or what? I mean, principle, yes. We can power, for example, we can print flexible solar cell. We can print flexible or in principle OLED. Yeah. And put them all in future on clothes or on top of your, some sort of design feature, you know, and have it self-powered. So how long have you been working on this? Our lab was quite young. So we started in 2018. And, but we have quite. But you're in a rush, right? Yeah. You want to get this out by 2020? What's happening? How far are we from your technology, for example, being a full display? I want an A4 page OLED display, 4K and unbreakable. And with a solar on the corners and a bezel. Okay. Honestly, it's difficult to say. We were working on this, but it's like maybe one, two years outside of these prototypes of matrixes. But OLEDs are ready for sale. Yeah. This is what we already sell. And if somebody wants to buy it, it's totally for sale. For sale. Yeah. But is this is mostly for promotional kind of products? Yeah. This is our first idea. Like we want to make OLEDs on there, which are a little bit worse than the OLEDs made by LG on screens. But they're pretty cheap because they're printed by, you know, equipment on hair quickly and cheaply. Cheap? But how much does it cost if I want to have a birthday card like this? You have to send us a quotation. Quotation. I need to make a big birthday party with a thousand invited guests, right? Yeah. Otherwise, you don't take small orders, or maybe you might. Yeah. Then please send us an email. I'm not that specific for it, so I cannot tell you. And how far are you from a... So official plan for this year is 10 by 10 MIDI module. 10 by 10. What does that mean? 10 by 10 is 10 centimeters by 10 centimeters. So... Like this, yeah. Like this? Mass production or just lab? Lab. Lab. But how do you get into mass production? For testing. So for mass production, we need to scale up, and then depending on what kind of end product you want, if you want to couple it with a silicon photovolta, then of course we need to go for sizes which are relatively similar to silicon wafers. But if you want to have a standalone perovskite solar cells, we have to go probably to larger than A4, which probably depends on many factors. And one of those would be scalable application or deposition of all the other layers, not perovskites. Because as soon as you figure how to print or slot die coat or yeah, deposit perovskite on a smaller area, you can do it also on a larger area. It's just a question of equipment to make other layers compatible enough with the perovskite. So are you saying that flexible solar panels might not be perovskite, might be something else? No. I'm not saying that. I'm saying that this is exactly what can happen, that we can have flexible perovskite solar cells. But what we need to do is to make other layers which are below and above perovskite and encapsulation on top of this solar cell compatible with our processing conditions. So we can now print on a foil and we are pretty much not limited by size of this foil as soon as it's not like meters. But to make conductive layers that will take another half a year of research to make inks and special processes to deposit those layers on top. And is there a chance that you might be leaving in this field? Or there's a lot of people working with solar, right? And printed all that, there's a lot of work to, I guess, big companies also working on it, right? But is there a chance that you will be the leaders in this? So far there are not that many companies. All of them are not even, or somewhat close to pilot lines. Some of them are located even here or at this exhibition hall. But there are basically five companies in the world who can do it. And we are one of them. Five is not many? Not that many. So what is a five? You want to say? No. No? So there's five? And is there a chance maybe Europe will be the leader in this stuff? So far there... Berlin will be the leader, and you, I mean... So far in Berlin, in Berlin area, the probability of this is very high. So do you need EU funding to speed up, get mass production happening, or you already have it? I don't know, how it works. But how do you get to, you know, because everybody needs solar and you want to print it out cheap, put in every building, it needs to work in the rain, is that a good idea or not? I mean, there's some concerns about the environmental factors, but I think if you kind of think about logic behind this calculation, it doesn't really prevent from using perovskites and such materials in PV, even with the rain and with quite drastic climate conditions. You can have a layer on top, right? Yeah, protection. You just use protection, maybe not for flexible, maybe you need to have a good foil. And it's still... We are talking about 10 years from first solar cells ever made in the world, you know? So 10 years, what? The first perovskite solar cells were made literally like 10 years ago. So we are not that far into industry and I think we have pretty good chance to actually be one of the first research facilities and maybe future industry of perovskites. So I would say they're not yet enough testing for their stability and we cannot promise some long time of the lifetime of the solar cells because we just have this research for literally 10 years. But it's very promising. It's cheaper than... It's very cheap. And then what's here now? It's very cheap. How much cheaper? So... Are you in order of magnitude cheaper? No. I would say it's hard to say on a large scale and also we are doing it in a lab. I mean, as soon as you scale up everything, it's going to get a little bit cheaper because it will depend on what you buy and stuff like this. But it's possible to make it cheap, it's possible to make it available, it's possible to make it pretty, it's possible to make it flexible and integrated into buildings and things like this. So there is a huge potential. It's not yet enough time to actually make this kick. But since 2009 we have 20% of efficiency more. So from like 3% to 23 is a huge step within 10 years. How much more can it get? It can get to 43. Theoretically it can go to 30% but not much because there are some physical limitations to it. But in principle, we can go even further when we can buy it with a silicon-fitable type. But if it's 10 times cheaper then it doesn't matter? It does matter when you can get 50% on yourself. It does matter? Yeah, it does matter because you have already installed and very developed technology for silicon and if you just implement a synth foil of perovskite solar cell on top and can double efficiency, that makes sense. You just double the efficiency on the existing technology? Yeah, if you just apply a synth foam of perovskite on top. For example, in the future that could happen. Is that like a no-brainer to do this? It is a very, very brainer. I mean it's like, of course it's a brainer but it's like, of course it has to happen. Yes, we have to do it. So you are thinking not just to replace... No. You want to enhance the existing... Yes, exactly. So the thing is that we are not competing with silicon in terms of conventional panels which are standing on the roof. We are looking at how to improve that. And in addition, we are looking for a new application, for example, semi-transparent solar cells where silicon cannot be used because it's not transparent, obviously. So using these, for example, colors and things we can do integrated photovoltaics into building design and window application, of course. Nice. Can it tint? Like, you know those airplanes? Do you make it darker and less dark? No, it's not like a liquid thing that can go in and out of the... I don't think that it's possible. That's fine. Maybe there are some... You can have a mechanical thing that opens and... Yeah, but I mean, you always have some sort of shields for the sunny day. Why not use this light to power solar cells? Nice. And how much cheaper are you compared to traditional OLED manufacturing? Hundreds of thousands. Hundreds of thousands. Because if this is going to mass production when we build a big machine, this is going to cost tens by OLED. This is like five orders of magnitude. Probably. How big are your teams? Like, is that a secret? No, it's not a secret. Few people like in the laboratory in my company. In the UK, so I don't know. So we have, for example, we have two main tools which we use for perovskites. And we have a couple of postdocs and a couple of PhDs on each. So in total, we have a team of certain people. And what if there's a huge order? What happens? So far, we don't sell anything. What if there is? What if people say, I want it like 2020 this much? Oh, in 2020, it's going to be very different. I mean, we are growing. It's like, it's a really crazy learning curve. I think by that time, we will be able to do that. But first of all, it also takes one minute to make this sample. You know? One minute? Yeah. This is like one minute print. So in principle, we are just limited by how much we can press the button and how much ink we can make. And this is, you use for this, for example, you probably use like microliters and we can make liters of solution. Are these recyclable? Yes. Totally? So where's all the different parts? It's mostly plastic. All the slides are so thin that you don't have to worry about them and it's mostly polymers or recyclable things. Automatically, no issues? Yeah, exactly. And there's no toxic heavy metals or whatever inside. And yours? Is recyclable? So in our case, as I said, it's just a very new field. So there's not that much research into this. But there are a couple of publications on, let's say, research state where people try to recycle even the materials which are used. And in principle, they were saying that you can recycle substrate, which is main cost of the solar cell, for example, because we use quite expensive substrates. And then what you can do is you can recycle materials because they're basically soluble in different solvents and then you can split them and use them again. So there is a potential for recycling. And of course, you would not just throw them away. Is it dangerous materials? You need to wear masks in the lab? So they are a little bit air sensitive. This particular sample is quite air sensitive. That's why we work in glove boxes in fully nitrogen atmosphere. Like this right here? Yeah, exactly. Like you have to be behind the thing? Yeah. Is that an issue or not? No, this is not an issue. Is this standard for? This is very standard. I mean, you just go to the lab, you wear gloves. That's it. And all the solar cells that are there now are not more or less safe than standard solar cells, right? How is it here? I mean, okay. So the perovskite consists also of small quantities of lead. But the amount of lead and perovskite model will be the same as in the silicon model due to soldering. So also there are calculations about amount of lead which can go into soil in case of tornado. You know, if all the models are broken on the field with a thousand of models and you break them, there are not going to be any impact on the nature. So it is very small. So this layer is basically 300 nanometers thick. And this doesn't make a lot of material. So if you scratch all of it, you will not even see it. You know, it's like basically a small particle. And it's yours. You can print. You can breathe the air around the printers. No issue. Yes, it's like a normal printing house. Like we just use organic solvents, of course, but they're safe. We check this. I work every day with them. And a lot of them are used also in putty industry. So it means like they're really safe and not toxic for humans. Nice. So what do you think about the show? Are these tickets? Very nice. Yeah, a lot of people with a different... Everyone is printing. Really cool. And it's right next to your office, right? Yeah, almost. Almost? Yeah, it's like 20 minutes from the biggest research region in Berlin called Adlershof, where all the day research facilities are. Is this like the Silicon Valley of Europe? Yes, it is. In Berlin, yeah. In Berlin. It's like cool. Yeah, that's a cool stuff. We have a simple job. Cool, all right. Thanks a lot. Thank you. Yeah, thank you. Thanks a lot.