 Okay, welcome back to the podcast and just given the fact that we are very much into application season I thought what would be a really great episode to do was to grab one of our Community members who's gone through this process all the way from Still in study going through spring weeks to then doing a summer internship and getting a return offer and Just conscious of the fact that lots of people will be in different parts of this application process So what we're going to attempt to do is talk about kind of handling of applications Kind of quality versus quantity. We'll talk about online tests talk about higher view talk about technical behavioural interviews And then also assessment sensors, but gory perhaps you could introduce yourself first aid to kick things off Yes, of course. So thank you. I'm gory. I'm currently studying at LSE doing PPE I'm in my final year. It is a four-year degree and Yeah, I just as you mentioned went through the whole spring week through and I'd say have a Had a definitely my own application experience and now I'm going I found my summer conversion to join investment banking team in the UK M&A team and Very excited to do that and share anything I may have picked up along the way Yeah, so you've had a few different Experiences, I know you did spring at RBC and Jeffries as well So I guess the first question is this this big one that students often present to me Which is how many applications should they send and it's this idea of every application takes a lot of time In order to do it well So do you invest time in doing just a handful really well? Or do you just go for volume or is there this kind of hybrid of the two and how how did you manage that? So I think Firstly like my condolences to anyone doing the application season because it's really rough it's a lot of work and Pressure and I think it does pay off in the end because you just need that one company that says yes And then you're kind of sorted good to go, but when it comes to the quality versus quantity debate I think personally I would say it depends on the amount of experience you have going into the application season So when I was applying for my spring weeks, I had absolutely no experience in finance I didn't have a lot of experience interviewing for jobs either. So I felt more secure going high quantity Not necessarily because I was interested in so many different companies and you know Even really wanted to work at some of them but being able to use them as a practice and then Bouncing off some interviews which I knew were like lower hanging through than the companies that I really really wanted I found really useful So I think I'd assess going into whatever stage of the application process you are if you're doing springs or summers or quad roles assess how much Experience you already have and then based on that you can be more selective as a general rule Less experience equals less selective in my opinion And then going from that you can organize it into a spreadsheet to keep track of the applications that you are doing so that they don't feel too overwhelming and Honestly, I think because you're doing so many applications and a lot of them will be for the same sorts of jobs whether that's consulting finance or global markets I think there's a lot of overlap between applications So if you are going for a high-quantity rule then what you can do to minimize Like how many how much effort you're putting into them is find as many ways as you can to get overlap between these applications So if that's coming up with stories for behavioral interviews like your leadership experiences just keep the same ones and just repeat them and reuse them over again and I don't think there's any penalty to doing that. I never experienced it I don't know anyone else who has but if you can I actually think it's helpful the more applications You just get more practice and it's the same it's the same work essentially just multiplied The only time when it does get a lot more effort would I would suggest is final round interviews when you need to have a bit more differentiation on the company you're interviewing with but otherwise it's some It's kind of going to be a couple of months log and the same application can be applied to different companies Yeah And so the let's say you're all being well with success at that first hurdle One of the first things then that you get invited to is a high view And I know a lot of people can be quite intimidated by that because they're like I don't know how to talk to a camera or a computer and what how long do I have to answer the questions? And what if I don't fit it all in in time? So what tips would you have on on high of you interviews? No, that makes a lot of sense I remember thinking this is a crazy way to interview And it's like sticking in front of a camera And get me speaking but it's actually I think it's really useful So firstly, I think when it comes to information about the high of you itself the time will take or the questions They might ask I think what is useful is to Google maybe in the email that they sent you for the high of you They'll include some information read that carefully because it might tell you how long your Interview is full or how long each answer is whether that's 30 seconds or two minutes That's usually the range. So you know how long to aim for And then you can also see how many questions they may ask you if they don't give you this information Then you can always Google it and ask like Georgia banks previous high of you questions or high of reforma and usually people have spoken about it I think last or Wall Street Oasis are all useful websites for this or asking people that you may know who have done the high of you before But then when it actually comes to the content of the high of you I think what's really useful and either this is what the content itself Mostly revolves around your experiences your CV and your competencies I think that's essentially what a high of you is assessing and like how you're able to communicate them So definitely print off your CV I'd say annotate it and ask yourself questions on it and see okay There's this experience here. You were leading a society at your university What would you ask on it? Like, you know, if you were to give an example of your leadership experience Could you summarize this and what you learn in a minute? And then I would record yourself doing all these practices get your phone out It feels really weird at the time But it's very very useful to actually watch yourself over and see maybe where you stumbled or what you did wrong And then you also have that added pressure of having a camera on you. So you're already kind of Stimulating the high of you environment. So I would really recommend doing that And then for the other types of questions behavioral and competency, I would Google online like common behavioral Incompetency questions or common to the bank that you're interviewing at and then again Like practice them give yourself A couple of examples for each competency I wouldn't say go beyond two examples for each say if you had a leadership question I only have two examples on the back of your hand So you don't get confused between them and then just practice them again and again and through recording yourself I think that's really useful and you it's all essentially about getting comfortable with the Environment because I think a lot of people struggle with getting comfortable One more tip I feel as stressed by a few companies is do you look at the camera when you're speaking? Because they have some technology that assesses the way you speak and communicate and they do that through the camera lens in Your device that you're using so that's really helpful as well One more thing maybe to watch out. Usually the questions are Competency based, but I'd watch out for they can also ask about risks and trends in the sector or the role that you're Applying for that's kind of the breadth of questions. I've experienced on a high of you I don't believe they get more technical than that usually and Yeah, as long as you keep preparing for that. I think you should be okay for those once you get used Yeah, so getting used to it then so just for a bit of context if no one's ever done a high of you How how much practice or training do you think is required to get comfortable enough to satisfy what they're looking for? So, um, I'd say you don't because you're speaking about yourself It sounds like a lot of work, but you actually really know these stories already if you're describing your experiences So I wouldn't say it takes more than a day to practice a Few key competencies read out loud and record yourself go over it And I think at that point you have those stories in your head You might have them written down as well And I think that's already very good And then as you go through application season and you do more and more high of you You'll just get better and better and better and you'll get tired of your stories too because you'll have said them so many times to yourself So I think I'd say spend a couple of days on it max before you start applying and then just get them out and get practicing and That's essentially it's it's not once you do it a few times over it won't be too difficult So it's it doesn't take more than a couple of days. I would say to get the hang of it And just for my benefit in terms of the high of you interviews themselves Are they a uniform length generally speaking or did they all differ slightly bank to bank? Yeah, they all differ slightly so I think the shortest I've had is 30 seconds Which I think are very hard because you Really want to show that you can manage your time and get your full story in before it cuts So again, that's why I'd try and find out the details to the high of you before you sit it because You know, you don't want to be in a situation where you run out of time I think that's like not a great snarl to be in but then the longest interview High of you and you have had it was three minutes for one answer Which is also difficult because three minutes goes fast and then you need to be able to hit each point by the deadline so you'd have to check and kind of be able to Identify the the key point in every story or answer that you say so if you do need to cut it or extend it You can So again, it's about getting comfortable with it But I think when you do these Questions for more and more companies, you know, most people have at least 40 applications If you do it 40 times over and before with practice It's usually like you become pretty good at gauging how long you'll need So that's usually like yeah So before we move into that like the details of interviews one thing I wanted to ask is like you just mentioned the number 40 So let's say you were doing 40 Applications and they all started to progress I've heard people talk about before that you obviously a lot of these banks recruit on a rolling basis So you want to apply as soon as you possibly can so you get within that catchment. However Could you catch yourself in a situation where? You do you literally spend every hour you can you get all the applications out But they all progress and then you're in a situation where you have to sit a whole bunch of Higher views or numerical tests all at the exact same time and has that happened to you or anyone you know? And how would you manage that? Yeah, that that does happen Usually there's a stage of the application cycle everyone is Like the very start early September is sending out applications getting your CV Ready in your cover letters and then in a couple weeks time early October It will be higher views or numerical tests online psychometric tests and then a few weeks later Usually early November and December is what interviews happen. So it's very cyclical in that sense. It has a real Like pattern to the application season. I think what's helpful is to So I would say usually some of them It's it's naturally a bit staggered because a lot of different companies have different opening dates And that does vary by a few weeks between each opening day However, at the same time a lot of them also do open at the same same time But because you're applying on a rolling basis It is like the case that being early is the most important because you know If they have a space open they're going to fill it as soon as they find the candidate for it So if you can get in and just send your application out and be prepared for all of them to come at once It is the best situation to be in but at the same time if you do get a bunch of higher views That are coming through they usually give you a couple of days to complete within so you can do multiple within a day or within a week and Also having that practice of doing other companies higher views I think is the most Important practice actually doing a proper high of you to then doing another high of you and it's really good preparation to have and Once that stage is over then you're going to move on to the interview stage as well managing it I think with university is the hardest bit because Obviously you have your studies and a lot of like you know a degree is hard So I think what I would say is maybe do a two-hour rule So I would try and stick by this is at least like every day try and get a two-hour slot of just university work Catching up on a lecture or problem sets anything and just getting that done and as long as you can dedicate a couple hours a day Hopefully Just to university you can spend the rest of your day doing whatever applications or anything else Then I think that's a good way to keep on top of it. Yeah, and just a final kind of anchor to the 40 number That you mentioned so let's say you did 40 Were they all I mean you're going back now to JP Morgan to work investment banking Were these all would these all have been investment banking or with these being a blend of you were doing maybe Investment banking or consulting or equity research or markets Yeah, I think at the time for some reason I was very very sold on investment banking So most my applications were for that if they weren't for investment banking then they were for global markets Which either way I still feel had a lot of crossover at the time applying for spring weeks, but if you're doing It's actually a good point because investment banking and good and global markets These are the roles that are usually rolling so deadlines are a lot more important than opening dates were a lot more important to stick by Whereas if you are throwing in some consultancy applications to which is something I was interested by I didn't actually Prioritized when I was applying is those applications are not rolling So the deadlines are usually later in October even later than that November December And there's not the pressure to get those in immediately. So I would prioritize your Banking finance applications over consulting or any that are not rolling Usually people have a mix and I think it's good too, but it also depends what stage you're in if you're applying for grad roles Then maybe you might want a better idea of what you want to do the time. I was applying I didn't I just wanted experience, but it depends like how fine-tuned you want it to be by the time you're applying And the online testing we did briefly mention that but maybe we could just have a quick chat about that part of things So numerical tests and things like that. So what's your experience of that and what advice would you have on that area? Yeah, so again, it's about I think it's about practice and it helps doing so many applications But there are three main Websites are used that I found were really helpful and replicated exactly the type of test that I'd be doing for an application And that's job test prep then assessment day and graduates first I actually had a free subscription for graduates first through LSE and I found that one one of the most useful for How represented if it was of the tests I was doing and basically I would just work through these Practice tests and get a good idea of where I was going wrong Which questions I was doing better on and just work through all their practice questions Ideally that would be done I say quite early on in the application phase around when you're Completing your CV, but it can be done at any time because I think None of the tests are too difficult They just test skills that we haven't used in a long time like mental maths Which I don't think anyone really does any more at university on a regular basis So something else I did which is useful and I know a lot of consulting Applicants do this is I downloaded an app called mere mere maths light. It's spelt M I M I R And it's just like Free app on your phone that you can do math questions on like 10 minutes a day And it's just addition suppression vision multiplication It's really useful and it just gets your brain backing gear working at the pace It could always work out. It's just you haven't used those muscles in a while So I think getting back used to that is is very useful But also when it comes to testing I'm surprised There's another side of it that I'm surprised that people don't always prioritise enough And that's just having a really good environment to do your test in So being in a quiet place, no disturbances Good like lighting or anything anything that you need to feel comfortable in in that space Because you are under time pressure You maybe ask difficult questions and it won't help if you if you're getting disturbed So I think just ensuring you have that and good Wi-Fi connection is the most important as well to help users I guess just maybe a personal insight here because you mentioned about having two hours Dedicating some time to lectures and catching up on notes and things like that So are you quite a stickler for like allocating time through a day? Question one and I guess the offshoot of that being how do you reward yourself in terms of Not like let's say that these are study and professional pursuit activities Like do you have like a pendulum that you need to balance to have this harmony to perform? Do you think? Yeah, I think it's funny. So I'm I'm saying with hindsight what I would do But did I stick to that every day? Definitely not because it's very hard and when you're enforcing application season It's hard not to prioritize your applications over university I think ideally try and keep a general structure in mind and a few hour blocks is what I find a useful way to Allocate my time just to visualize what I'll be doing at different times of the day and creating some sort of routine I've always found really really helpful And I think a lot of people also operate like that Otherwise, it's difficult to manage all the different things you have to do in a day But allow for a lot of flexibility because there are going to be Like inevitably times when you're going to get sent an email at 10 o'clock saying 10 p.m Saying you have a high view that you need to complete within a day or two and obviously that's going to throw Things everything that you had fun for the next day a little bit off out the window so be able to like account for that and 100% when it comes to balancing it with rewards is very very essential. I think My my favorite way to kind of reward myself is to do some form of exercise It sounds really cringy, but I just think when you're at a desk all day and you're like doing the same work Professively, it's really easy to get down. So I'd always like try go for a walk or go Play some sport and then also you can meet your friends through doing that and you know having some time off because The application season is longer than you think in your head because it starts in like August, September Then it can last all the way till next year May when you might actually be getting March Sorry when you're getting offers. So definitely have Some way to sustain yourself and scheduling things in but I think as a university student You get that anyway because even without applications, you'll be really busy And then you'll have to slot different things into your schedule last minute. So it's already good practice to Have a structure in mind but allow for it to be flexible Okay, well, look, you're moving smoothly through the application phase now and you've made it to interviews These typically divided into technical and behavioral. So maybe a little bit about your Experiences of those two and also preparation. So you're not like a straight econ Student so to speak. So what was your did you feel a little bit? Intimidated or you're looking at your peer group. Did you feel like disadvantaged tool and how did you feel that gap? And then when it comes to them all the execution side of doing an interview and being under pressure and Having a face-to-face and these sorts of things. So, you know, what was your take on that section? No, for sure. Good question. I think not only was I not a straight econ student I had No experience in finance really so it definitely and I think most people won't unless you've done a similar spring internship Which is really great to have but otherwise it's difficult to get that experience So I think technical question technical interviews are the most Kind of worrying when you went most stressful when you go into them So I'll start with maybe talking about behavioral and how to approach those and the good thing is There's a lot of crossover with high view questions with behavioral interviews So high views will usually ask you about your competencies and What you do in a situation if X happened or when if you displayed Compassion to a fellow worker these are the sort of questions you get in higher views And they're also the question you'd get in behavioral. So in that sense exact same prep ask yourself these questions record yourself speaking them and just have a few have two examples for each confidence competency on the back of your hand and You know, that's just about practice and then set moving on to the actually there's another Strand of like questions as well. I think motivational is also a really common question to ask especially in earlier stages of the interviews so Motivational for this I would say the most important thing is to build a story and build your own Narrative as to why you really want this role. So for me, it doesn't necessarily have to be true. It just has to flow I used an example of why I wanted to do health care investment banking because my parents are doctors And I never lived up to the expectation of becoming a doctor And it was just kind of like funny at the time But I could also make it believable and that's the most Important thing if you can try and sell like say you're doing engineering and you want to work in Industrial and investment banking sell why where the connection is there and that makes it a lot more believable And then when it comes to the questions about why this phone because that's also a really important motivational question You can if you can go on their website and find out a few facts about them that tie tie into your story Then it just makes everything More complete and makes you look like of more put together candidate who's thought more about why specifically this company? Because again, it links to the question you're asking at the beginning quantity of equality Everyone most people will be going quantity. I think but when it comes to the latest stages It becomes more about quality and that's when a little bit more work before each interview is required To create that story with that particular company But then when we move into technical questions, I think for me I actually wrote down a couple of things I used so when it came to IB technicals I used the 400 questions guide which you can just Google and get the free PDF And then I also used the Wall Street Oasis breaking into finance guide and again free online You can just access it and my biggest advice would be to stick to nailing the basics and prioritizing the real beginner information in the technical In the technicals be asked because you can spend a lot of time on the advanced questions But realistically that they will ask you in a 20 30 minute interview And if they do it as long as you have the basics you can at least work towards it with the help of the interviewer But the biggest thing with technicals is I think not to worry too much if this is where you Stumble more because I think a lot of companies are a lot more lenient on this aspect as Compared to behavioral or motivational because if you falter on the behavioral motivational, I think that's a lot Worse for a company to accept than a technical when you can learn technical, but you can't teach Behavioral motivation as easily There's actually another part of technical is also commercial. So commercial Awareness questions are different in the sense. You don't need like hardcore technical knowledge skill set But it's actually I think it's way more important to be nailing these to show your interest In the actual industry you'll be joining. So for these I use consultancy reports and you can just Google M&A trends or market trends 2023 such PWC Bain any consultancy and they'll write up a summarized document for The market trends and just use them and to show that you have that knowledge and you thought about The aspect of your career because it is really important You better mention Steven's deal room podcast on a Wednesday. Otherwise, he's gonna get upset No, I didn't actually use Find me a lot for that and then use that to be fair because it's it's all about finding like a really bite-sized way of Taking in information that you can use A caveat to this would be I think try and find a bit more specific information on a particular division or sector That you're interested in because then again, you can like display more interest that you've thought about in your interview Okay, cool. And then Going to like the final part which is say an assessment center and let's say now the COVID days touch wooded behind us in person you kind of go to a Big premises in Canary Wharf and obviously there's a lot of nerves about but how do you actually deal with? That situation I guess dealing with the other people that are with you and kind of I guess Looking at your competition so to speak and it's kind of like Is it collaborative? Is it competitive? Like how do you kind of manage that and then Any just broad tips? We don't need to go into all of the activities during an AC but more broadly speaking any kind of Quick wins or things that people might have not thought about that you think could be good to know ahead of time Yeah, for sure So I never had an in-person AC because I was definitely fully co-generation of applicants but I did intern over summer and In Canary where I definitely felt some of the most important things are dressing the pot It helps you feel confident, but it also plays Such an important subliminal role in what your interviewers think of you It's surprising how you know how much emphasis is put into this but especially in investment banking consultancy I think appearances really highly emphasized so bear that in mind I think that will give a really good first quick win easy impression if you can Dress well question on that then is I think as a guy It's quite easy to dress right in this context because You wear a suit Wear a white shirt don't have anything too outrageous generally dark shoes You can't really go wrong But as a woman is it is it more challenging like what sort of heels you wear? Like color lipstick makeup how much your earrings like I'm asking as a guy I don't I don't know but what is it is it more complex at all for a woman a hundred percent? I think as a guy okay not to underplay what a guy would need to wear But it is I think it generally easier and you can reuse outfits Maybe easier than a woman can my recommendation would be maybe to wear a tie I think that shows an interview that's like some people think not to wear a tie But I know quite a few people who always have said do and they think interview it reflects better But that's just you know personal preference, but for a woman I think my biggest advice is to play safe if you think a shirt is too loud or the neckline is like not You don't feel as comfortable in it. I just would not I wouldn't risk it I would just play a really neutral color The best thing is to not draw attention to yourself for your outfit You should look as good as as a part of that company when when you walk through those doors Or even if you're interviewing online and you shouldn't stand out compared to the employees You should wear something that maybe they would and that means I'd probably say not bright colors No, like kind of odd shaped t-shirt or anything Just wear as kind of comfortable and simple clothing as you can and play safe in that sense But again, no one no one's really worrying too much about what you wear as long as it meets a threshold That you look smart and prepared. So yeah, so it's a good point to know and on the heels part Because you did mention that I think that's a concern for a lot of girls Because I I didn't usually wear heels when I worked and I and no one that I really know who was working on the floor Walk heels either they're not they're not so much Like cared for in the working environment that I experienced anyway I think in consulting it's different heels are important more important But it's more important to have like comfortable smart shoes and not risk getting blisters the first time you wear the shoes Because every single intern that attend their training when I joined over summer had blisters and we were all walking really funny Should definitely prioritize the comfort as well. What about the Kind of I guess tying interviews. I'm sure in an AC there'll be more interviews The actual execution side of that Did you ever come across the situation where it was like a duo good cop bad cop or there was like a Seniority play where it was like the analysts associate But then you step up to the MD and then the differences and how that came across in the interaction Yes, so from my experience and from what I've asked of other people to Generally the more junior the interviewer you have I feel the more the more grilling you get in terms of your technical ability and your Relevant experiences and how you can apply to the role you're applying for because I think they're more interested in what it would be like to have you working Under them slash with them Whereas when you have a more senior person interviewing you I found there's a lot more emphasis on your personality and your behavioural traits and your motivation for being in that company So that's a huge distinction I've found not to say you won't be asked with like vice-versa But that's generally the trend I see and you can have interviews with multiple people and it's kind of expected that you'll be able to Converse with both of them without you know dividing your attention to distinctly between either one I think treat it as much as a conversation as you can and you'll get you'll be answering one question from one person And then the other interviewer will throw a different one at you So just being prepared for you to have multiple conversations or within the same space and or with each other is something to be ready for And I think the reason for this is it's preparation for what you'll be doing in the role So during my summer we had to do a case study and part of that the biggest part was the presentation in the final week Where we had to present to the entire senior management team for investment banking and this is like a room full of your team See the most senior people in in the investment bank and you have to Present your your case study. So you'll be asked questions from all over and they won't necessarily be linked So you just have to be ready for the questions to come and be accepting of each one You can't say sorry, let me just finish this one or let me just finish on this topic You just have to answer the question that you're being asked at that time And and then how did you find that experience with the other people who are going through The AC with you because not obviously not everyone's going to have success. So like how was that? Yeah interaction with the other people isn't I think as um, as Insincere as this may sound, but I genuinely did live like live by it during summer and during application process Is to treat people other applicants not as competition as much as you possibly can because realistically None of this is personal and this is my actually really good advice for how to deal with pressure in general in an AC if you accept that it's not personal and It's not a direct reflection of you as a candidate Then I think you'll be able to accept rejection or accept the pressure a lot better than if you put loads away on This is me applying for a role and they're rejecting me personally I think that's a really negative way to view it and in the same way when you come into An assassin center with multiple other people They're also in the same position as you and the company knows nothing about them or nothing about you except what you're going to Present on that day. So if you come into it with a competitive mindset The company is also monitoring how you behave with other candidates And that's incredibly incredibly important for the type of person that they want to hire who doesn't treat other people as People to be cautious of but people to work with and I found that in an AC the the friendliest people or the people who don't Kind of the easiest people to talk to and the ones that don't appear Threatened by other candidates are the ones who do the best because they kind of accept There's another 40,000 people applying for this role It doesn't matter me or me or the person that next week is going to get it Depends on your performance within with the actual interviewer So I think it kind of to the pressure when you compare yourself to people But it's not generally the most helpful thing to do. Yeah, no I think that's a good good way to end the conversation because I think it kind of breaks a lot of People's misconceptions about hey how they think I think you need to behave or how you need to present yourself And how you deal with other people whereas actually Just being quite natural and being quite normal is actually the best way to do it 100% I think at least JP Morgan, I think your your character is emphasized a lot How you how you approach people how you behave with people and I've met some of the most helpful people That I've ever been around during my time there and even the interns, you know We're all new I'm sharing like my notes that I did someone else's I'm gonna share Something with me and we all help each other if someone has like a lot more what to do I can see how I can help them and it just creates a really a really good environment where you can just learn from other people and I think as a bit of general overall advice having people with you during the application process is really really helpful in terms of You know asking them how they found their experience of particular company seeing if they can help you and then helping them back It really helps when if you have an AC with so you have an AC tomorrow with Company X if you can linked in search or find someone who had the same AC and ask them to help and then you help them back If they need it, it's a really really proven way to kind of up your chances of success. I think Right, okay, we've covered a lot of the ground Some really good tips some really good resources and links actually that you've mentioned so I'll do my best to try and Bookmark all of these in the kind of episode notes so that people can find them really easily Do you mind if people connect with you on LinkedIn if they find you? 100% that's Very welcome Okay, cool. Well all the best with your finals and your return to JP and yeah, we'll speak again soon. Thank you Thanks, Gauri You