 back again the master the master of metal church heard Vanderhoof the blessed reverend yes I love your name you have my favorite rock and roll name even though it's real right right it's totally real yeah absolutely well thank you very much that's my favorite name it's my favorite metal name ever hands down I wish my name was Jim Vanderhoof that's awesome thanks great news metal church will release their 13th studio studio album congregation of annihilation on May 26 on rat pack records great news the the phoenix has risen right the phoenix in a manner of speaking yes yeah yeah we have we decided to we've found a way forward and we're still taking it step by step but yeah so this is the last communication March 2020 I spoke to you and and you're supposed to play the festival in Montreal heavy Montreal somehow the band canceled whatever the reasons where they were and I can't I can't remember what it was you can't remember what it was either yeah but yeah it doesn't matter it doesn't matter and then and then you moved and you're inducted the metal church was inducted the metal hall of fame and then you moved at the same time so when did you start thinking okay I'm gonna write this album oh after I spoke to Mike and we decided to put it was time to put together a new album you know all the COVID BS started lifting you know and all that stuff started it's like okay well let's let's start working and so I wrote a new album and sent it off to Mike and we were going back and forth starting our process and then then it happened yeah so there was a few months there where I kind of figured that it was over you know kind of naturally it was like yeah both original singers gone I am am I getting the message but then after a couple three months realizing I had an album sitting there that if nothing else maybe we could put it out in you know in honor of Mike and so when we found Mark it just kind of it just we again we took the whole thing step by step that's why we didn't want to do a big huge you know international search for a singer and make a big production of it because might not have worked you know then we'd have to explain why it didn't work and it would have been a whole thing so we wanted to do everything really you know uh very under the radar so yeah as things worked out with Mark it started taking on because of the way he sings started taking on a much more aggressive sound much more thrashy much more uh back to our roots kind of thing I guess and so yeah so that was uh that was the catalyst for it so there's half of the songs of the of the new album is stuff I wrote with Mike in mind and then when I started realizing that we started seeing there was a new direction kind of developing then I wrote another batch of songs to fit into you know fit into the more thrashy aggressive aspect of where we're going so let me ask you this and when you collaborated with was it a collaboration with Mike I just want to see how much of Mike is left in those songs um no we never got to that point we were just you know I wrote the music and he was listening to it and we were just kind of going back and forth about what he liked and what he didn't like and just kind of got that's as far as it got sadly okay yeah yeah so you mean and what you're trying to say is you had the song sort of ready yeah to go to the level of where you're going to properly record them with vocals and and so forth yeah okay all right okay we were going to start our creating process you know write a batch and I write the music and then Mike and I collaborate on the vocals and going through all the songs and figuring out which works and which ones do not and you know just that whole process so you know it was a huge shock to the whole metal world when Mike passed away oh I know right it was and you know and if I'm and if you don't want to answer any questions I get it don't worry I mean and you you say what you want to say but I mean you've known him so many years it was this like completely caught off guard like some people see see this right and other people don't right well there was he was going through a period where he was having some trouble there was a divorce and things like that but when we started speaking again he had kind of come out of it and he was feeling good ready to start working on a new record you know I mean he was going through a rough time but there was no pressure because COVID was going on there was really nothing happening you know everything was kind of dead so and I had just moved you know so we were just kind of just starting but he had come out of it we had spoken and we were in contact and again he said yeah let's start getting a new album together I started writing and the whole thing so was I shocked yes mostly by the timing because I thought I thought he had kind of come out of it or so it seemed he was in good spirits he was ready to go to work ready to make music you know and then literally just out of the blue I got the call it's kind of like you know a friend you know like you have known someone so so long you think you would see signs you think you and you don't and I've heard this this story from other people too by the way that's why I'm kind of asking there was no signs nothing it just it happens all of a sudden yeah well I mean like I said there was a sign he was going through a rough time like we all do we all do you know we have bad moments and things like that but as far as I could tell he'd come out of it we were in contact talking about new music bloody blah blah then it was like boom so then in that respect it was like it was a shock at that point you know it's amazing that these like I heard you know either you in an interview or I read it you know he was on antidepressants and it's amazing how antidepressants are supposed to stop this sort of stuff in a sense right but they're the the and if you read the the side effects on these drugs it says thoughts of suicide that's what the side effects say I'm not saying on all of them I'm just saying certainly and I'm not saying for sure yeah I know right well it's kind of like watching television you see commercials for big pharma and they don't even tell you what the drug does yeah yeah you know so there's a I have a big problem with big pharma but that is just my opinion as far as his antidepressant thing that's same here same here same here same here but it's very suspect because like you said you know thoughts of suicide and things like but I thought that's the whole reason you wanted to take this to not have that feeling Kurt I could show you the literature I could show you the literature oh exactly dude could show you exactly like it's right there it's written right on the side of tags it's absolutely you know I mean I do I am well aware that some of these things do help some people absolutely um but I think it's often way too prescribed and some of it is I think some of it is pretty nefarious so it's kind of like those commercials you see you know this will cure your constipation side effects may cause constipation yeah side effects are yes your head's going to fall off yeah yeah yeah we'll go on some positive stuff here okay so so the search for the new singer right okay you're kind of sitting on the fence what should I do baby steps right right the search what what kind of singer did you have in mind didn't have one in mind just whatever kind of came our way again just finding out who we knew without having to run ads or do any of that kind of stuff so there was one other guy that we checked out who was great but then then uh mark was suggested by stett and steve so he was kind of already in our in our scene and uh and so we checked it out and there were two different styles and mark just seemed like a good fit and also then because along with that came a more aggressive sound which kind of appealed to me as far as okay this will be a new chapter this will be a new direction or an old direction new direction however where it just seemed kind of it just made sense it was just like let's come out swinging you know let's not do another we don't want a mic clone we don't want a david wane clone or anything like that let's do something let's start a new so to speak and mark really provided that so and what what kind of set list so mark's in the band i guess he i know mark too he's a great guy he's a great guy a great voice um what what's the set list gonna look like are we the set list is going to be mostly uh the uh first two albums with some mic stuff mic era stuff because we're switching it up because obviously when mic was in the band we were doing a majority of his stuff absolutely yeah yeah yeah yeah so now we're gonna go back and do a lot of the older stuff and we're gonna pull out a couple of you know few deep tracks from that era which are things that haven't been played which will be kind of fun and uh you know a couple of songs off the new album again we love we want to play the new album but we're well aware that most of the fans want to hear the old stuff you know because that's you know that's just the way it goes i go see bands that i've liked for 40 years and hey i love their new album but i want to hear the old stuff you know so it just comes with the territory so we want to do some some different old stuff a lot of the stuff we haven't played for so it's going to be a lot of fun correct did you produce this album or are you just kind of let everybody and did you give free reign to mark to mark wrote all the lyrics okay good yeah i let him go and i said good because it was good it doesn't always have to come out of my head you know yeah i can do it and but i you know that gave it a different sound it was time for something new and mark totally delivered so so give me a sentence for the people who have not heard the album what they're gonna expect it makes a good headline what the sentence is right um so the new metal church album sounds like the old metal church with modern production and heavier yeah yeah the new metal church is heavier and sounds like the old the old metal church but with modern production something like that in terms of in terms of the uh lyrical themes you just were you like talking to uh mark about that you know well i kind of gave him pretty much free reign but one thing that is very important to me is that it's gotta have uh it's gotta gotta have a positive spin on it to a degree you know i am you know because i as a christian i don't want to you know stand around you know i don't want to i don't want anything that i can't stand behind so you know so so he said those are the only guidelines i gave him you know because we won't there's no satanism there's no none of that garbage in our stuff so um so that was the only guidelines i had you know and uh so he worked within that parameter you know and it's very nice when you can do that kind of thing but yet have it sound just as aggressive as anything else you know and trying to keep a positive spin on it because that's one thing that's important to me in any kind of music it's supposed to uplift people it's supposed to make people feel better you know and and it should and so i want to kind of do as much as i can to make that happen so and how far like where is that line if you can like you're a christian right like how far would you go pass out there some christians who go far some christians will just stay it depends on the context you know i won't go past you know there's no there's no satanism there's none of the devil garbage and there's none of that stuff so that's pretty much the line you know and you know any of the and the and the you know just the blatant you know sexuality stuff was which i don't like anyway which i think is kind of tired you know the whole you know that kind of stuff so you know i like to be and i think that also makes the person need to be more creative because some of those things are just easy cop out lyrics you know the sex is a mood baby love rock and roll and ooh hail satan and all that garbage you know that's not creative you know say something you know it doesn't have to be brilliant but you know use some lyrics you know and just having a lot of nerve and saying a lot of you know controversial stuff that's that's not talent that's not creative that's just because you got a lot of nerve big deal you know go out and say stuff and be offensive and stuff i don't find that entertaining at all so you know you know i always loved about your songwriting it's it's it's aggressive but it's subtle at the same time there's well you know musicality is really important no matter what form of music for me you know i mean it can be aggressive and nasty and dissonant and all that stuff but yet it's still somehow got to have some musicality to it the singer has to hit notes you know and mark can do the the screamo stuff but he can also sing and hit notes in there too so that's i mean in order for me to be interested you got to have all those bases covered you know it's got to be musical you got to be able to sing there's got to be a melody there's got to be a hook be it guitar or vocals or preferably both you know and and and don't scream a bunch of darkness stuff at me you know for me you know yeah it's okay yeah it's like that's what makes me because i know i'm speaking to a lot of people in the metal world where it's quite not the same it's not the cool thing to say but i don't care you know i that's not cool to me you know evil is not cool and you know so metal sounds evil but it doesn't have to be evil it can sound that way i think you know if you listen to the old early black Sabbath stuff you know it's all heavy and dark and do me but it's really not you know it's really not lyrically that dark is actually quite warning against it which i think now that's clever you know i like that that's it clever is the word i like that word yeah um all right so then you have like i'm going to tell you i heard the like i heard this album just maybe a few times right because i just got it and wow man it's a kick in the face good yeah cool that's my that's my one liner it's a kick in the face well there you go use that one yeah metal church is a kick in the face yeah that's right another judgment day that kind of starts things off right like in your face and then congregation of annihilation another smack in the face and then children will lie sorry pick a god and pray we've already heard that single got another kick in the face and then children will lie that's when you're saying wait a second that's the old stuff that's kind of like you know we're going back to these guys here right right exactly yeah yeah and and sort of like the little flanger on the guitar the subtle little little strumming there that goes there is that it's kind of like is that what you were looking for it's kind of set some atmosphere yeah absolutely and then the big ending where you know i always love that about black Sabbath speaking of them again where they would have a song and then the middle of the song they'd change to something completely different and never get back to the song again i always love that i thought it was so great so it's a definitely in parts you know kind of more of the progressive rock kind of approach you know and it's like oh i want to do that and i came up with that riff you know for that it's like oh that'd be perfect one of those big slow fade out things you know which are a lot of fun you know trying to be as musical as possible within the framework of metal you know and when i spoke to mark he said that originally you have these bunch of songs and then you kind of wrote with him a new batch of songs that were more in your face yeah but those ones kind of like i guess those are the bonus ones or is that a couple of them are a couple of them are a couple of them are still are in the archives you know and so yeah a couple of the the the other songs are two of the bonus tracks so the album is kind of half and half you know some of them were written that made the album are for the mic from the mic batch and then another batch is from the new mark batch yeah yeah and and let me ask you in terms of what is your favorite song i mean okay everybody's gonna say this one this one this one but i mean if you have to pick one or two let's say i don't know i would have to say children of the lie probably because of those that kind of the proggy bigger you know atmospheric type of stuff you know but i have to say me the nothing i really like too you know you know what i would agree with that too and that's another off the dark maybe album you know and and all that we destroy i think that has like this really big chorus very melodic and right kind of like that too and that's always been metal church like thrash and suddenly you're got a melodic chorus happening more vice versa yeah right yeah yeah don't bore us gets the chorus what in terms of you know i know that you've been sort of singer one two three four i mean did you say to yourself you know what i can't you know things are getting lost here with all the singers and that's why we didn't make a big production of finding a singer yeah we did because it was i was feeling i mean when before mike came back to the band it was like you know i just wasn't at that particular time in those circumstances a fourth singer from metal church did but did not seem like the thing the right thing to do and then fortunately mike came back and that made sense you know that kind of kept the thing going it seemed legitimate it's because i said there isn't a fourth singer to metal church but that was during those circumstances this was a different obviously a different circumstance so again that's why we just wanted to try it and we're still taking baby steps we're going to start playing live uh next month we'll see how it goes yeah i think that's the best approach you just who knows it may work it may be great or it may just be a train wreck i don't know you know it who knows so we don't want to you know come out and start we don't know we're gonna see how it goes we're gonna do what would you do what if what would you do if you said you know what okay i've had enough of metal church what what are you gonna do like what other projects would you like to work oh i have presto ballet my progressive 70s prog rock band and hall of flame my rock and roll band i was in after i left metal church and we went out was easy top and put out a record on that we have a new album coming out too so yeah so that's just meat potatoes rock and roll and then i got my uh prog rock outlet so i like instead of messing with metal church i like doing all kinds of different things and because i love all kinds of music so i like challenging myself to see if i can create all different types of music so but i'm really excited about the hall of flame record that's it came out way better than we had expected it was intentionally going to be just something to document all these songs that we wrote for a second record that never happened and as we did it it was just it just took on a life of its own so we say okay we need to make just something real so we did that's cool that's very cool um so what you know you've been around now for a long time and you've been around forever oh don't don't get me started right yeah that's why you that's why you moved to sunny california right yeah i did get the choice in the arthritis yeah right the music industry today versus the music industry back then well what are the great stuff back then and the bad parts as well as the good parts today and the bad or the cons today you know like yeah love that question the good stuff about back then was you there was a galvanizing kind of sound there was a scene there was things that when we were starting out we felt we were part of a movement which we were yeah that was very inspiring and very you know lots of camaraderie you know pirates going to go attack you know the radio and that kind of thing so that was very fun and we were definitely doing that and once the major labels started picking up on it there was the potential to really blow up and be really big things like that which was great the downside was is the way the business part worked back then you know though the industry then you had to go through the major label filter and you were advanced tons of money for videos album production tour support and things like that but you paid that back out of your percentage so unless you broke big like Metallica you were very likely to not see a dime so that was a big like the word recoupable became very important yes yes let me ask you this just on that topic right there I know I think it was Joey Vera or John Bush I spoke to and they are still trying to pay off maybe they have today they're still trying to pay off their first album was 250,000 right yeah did you pay off did you recoup off the first two I guess yes we have we have recouped that and I mean the process of doing some stuff because there's some archival stuff that I'm working on that I can't talk about too much archival stuff that I think all metal church fans are going to be really excited about coming so that's coming yeah we just did yeah we we just did a few years ago and when you recoup do you own your masters at that point no another problem yeah they own they own your masters in perpetuity unless you negotiated that out of your contract would you never in the universe as well or is it just on you know on earth a universe I think you know if they want to sell and people think I'm joking I'm not joking no that was in a really good movie called bad news you know where like if there's Martians and we want to sell your records to them we have the right to you know that's right they own the masters in perpetuity but they're we're learning there's some loopholes and there's some things that have changed where they're not being as strict about that anymore because things have changed and it's been long enough so in most cases it's in perpetuity but but there's some wonderful archival wonderful fun things coming in them for the metal church catalog that in the next year or next year like this year like like in 2023 or 20 well it'll be I'm working on it now but probably next year okay good something to look forward to yeah let's continue this let's continue this okay bad now now the the the bad stuff about now is there's not much money in the selling of records because nobody sells a lot of physical copies so the whole thing is kind of reversed you put out a record so you can tour yeah so that way you make your money now that's really the down and you know so the physical product now thanks why I'm so happy vinyl is popular again so because that's all I listen to anyway I just enjoy the whole ritual and the sound and the cover and the art and the whole thing I just it sounds better if it's done right so physical product not sold so much people don't you don't sell a lot of records anymore uh streaming they don't really pay for their product that they sell so even though music is out there everywhere and it's consumed bigger than it ever has been the revenue is not the same and I hope you know there's going to be changes in that because the way it's happening is not fair so that's the downside upside is is it's direct artist to fans now there is no major label filter anymore so all this old guys which I like to call veterans all us old guys can still have a legitimate career without having to deal with a label thing oh no they're old what are the kids going to do you know because our fans are older with us too direct artists to fans and the cool thing is is like for rat pack for example the independent label is mirrored by the musician now so we're in control of our career yeah which you can't you can't put a price tag on that I mean because if it wasn't that's the way and if the music business didn't change you know how would old guys like us have a career a legitimate career unless you were Metallica you know or somebody of that caliber that size you know it's I don't know I don't know and it's so I was really scared about the the turn of the you know the the millennium when things when the whole Napster thing started to hit and I'm like oh no it's over you know I thought it was over but but again I the good outweighs the bad for me you know I still get to do it I get to do other projects I get to still go play you know there's not big money but I was never enough for the money anyway yeah what I do generates money one yeah then I want my cut but that's not why I do it you know it's like I do it anyway that's a good way to put it I do it anyway don't tell anybody that yeah I do this if I wasn't paid you know yeah don't let the book tell anybody that yeah but yeah then it'll be like what you don't want to play for free at this festival come on no I don't I said I do it anyway but I didn't mean that I didn't mean you right no but I love music that's what I do that's who I am it's what I do so but if it generates income yeah I want it but I have I you know I it took me a while to get used to the idea as well because it was changing it hadn't figured it's we hadn't figured out the way it was gonna go so the new music business took a while to get get our head around and get a handle on how to how to do this so it's definitely a different different animal but you know now there's no expiration date on us any of us I mean because there's a lot of bands like you know like metal church now that are worth from the same era our peers that are still going and doing great you know I mean anthrax metallica overkill exodus you know so well Slayer's done but you know all there's all the guys that we were kids they're we're all still doing this that's awesome you know even the bands who never even made it big that had names back in the 80s yeah they said like demos they're now touring and you know on festivals yeah gotta love that you know that's because we eliminated the major label filter you know where it was corporate thing now the again the benefits of the corporate thing was you could get real big you know you could be huge and everything like that and those can you sold lots of numbers and things like that but there was a control factor that you had to relinquish in order to do it you know unless you broke really big and then you could take over your you know your career but now I mean I don't know that I change anything the one thing like I mentioned the only thing that I would change in the business because streaming is a wonderful thing for the average consumer the way the technology is but these streaming services have got to pay us because they don't and you know and their argument is well we pay the guy who sort of owns the publishing which is usually like labels pennies on the pennies on the dollar pennies yeah like they're charging ten dollars a month to use as many songs as they want right it's kind of like I give you ten dollars and I could go to record store and listen to anything I want and bring it home and listen to it and then I just give it back at the end of the month yeah and then you're done yeah yeah well that's not right that's not right yeah you know and if there was a way to get a handle on the piracy you know in a way the streaming I find is fine I find a streaming sort of lessened the piracy you know not to say to eliminate it but it did lessen it so that's it certainly did it certainly did but they're not paying for it either so here's these companies that are you know providing a service but they're not praying paying for their product that they sell you know and I have problems with that you know but the reach on streaming you know you could go to Japan you could play you play Asia you play everywhere because they they're listening to yeah it's everywhere again one of the upsides but pay for your product I agree I agree artists always get the shaft the artists always are always that's why when I first realized after doing the dark when I realized how you really make records you know it's like that's where my interest really started to go so that's why I kind of stepped back for a while because I learned the production thing also learning that the band was at the bottom of the pay food chain yeah on the label yeah yeah it was like okay all these people all these people that are around me are making way more money than I am that's right fuck that yeah you know so yes because people don't realize you get production credit you get credit production credit you get royalty credit you get mechanicals you get this and the more you add to the overall production of things the more royalties you get right well yeah well the more percentage and you take away those other people you know you have publicists and producers and engineers and studio costs and all these things that just take then you know thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars you know and that's the one upside about the digital world and with computers now is that digital recording has gotten good it wasn't at first it was really bad for a while but people can make their records at home so you don't so the big studios that were charging you know 60 bucks an hour you know no they don't do that anymore they're done they're gone you know because we you know the dark I don't remember I think we spent like 60 thousand dollars in 1985 on the album you know three months worth of studio time and then the producer fee you know then we had a video and then we had tour support and just like it just yeah I mean it was just the way it was because a studio you know the huge investment to make a you know a competitive record the equipment that you needed was you know was extremely expensive well that is certainly a different game now but the problem with that is is that just because somebody bought us some software and a microphone suddenly they're a record producer so you get you know the business isn't competitive it's just crowded you know and it's like okay so there's but you take the good with the bad and everything you know so you know we make our own records now you know and so that's that's what I like about you you're always positive and you're looking at the bright side of things a lot of guys are saying oh it's over I can't take it anymore I can't stand well then quit go go get a job quit give up yeah just give up and also you forgot to mention you know these record companies they buy you homes and cars and they go look I bought you a car but meanwhile you're paying for it through your royalties and right exactly no you didn't buy it you just loaned me my own money yeah right yeah so yeah I mean but there's goods I mean we had we were very lucky that uh when we when we were at Electro we were working with Michael Alago who's still a great friend to this day but it was just it had nothing to do with him it was just the way the business ran because it was big business I mean big business you know and so now it's big business but in a different way you know it's just a whole new animal and I can't complain about it yeah there's some things I wish were different like the streaming and the piracy but man just the whole being in control of your career and being directly artists to fans now you can't beat it you can't beat it you know what's what's the feedback like so far it's been great I mean it's been it's been better than I had could even even hoped again with fourth singer you know but I think because it is more aggressive and it's much more in your fate much more of a kick in the face that I think the fans really like that you know and yeah so the response is is is great yeah so now we'll see what it's like live yeah I'm I'm I'm curious I'm curious when's the first date uh June 2nd in Chicago at Reggie's oh yes yes then you're going to New York after that then we go to Detroit the next night at Token Lounge and then and then at the end of the month we got a week long run up in the northeast all right so Metal Church the 13th studio album congregation of annihilation a kick in the face a kick in the face coming out May 26 if you have rat pack records is a mouthful rat pack records yeah this is sick any last words I just I mean just the usual but very heartfelt appreciation for the fans staying with us all these years and the fact that I still get to do this in any capacity is truly a blessing and it's not lost on me so hats off to you man you you keep on going and you keep going and you know all the all the hits you get and you know and I mean all the all the the challenges and the obstacles you keep going at it man I just well it gets to play music you know what could what could be wrong with that you know yeah you know I'm not in it to get rich or be cool because I'm neither one of those but I love music you know so you know so I get to play music because I love music all right Kurt thank you very much have yourself a wonderful day hey you too good to see you again take care man goodbye