 June 12 presidential election was annulled to prevent a coup, says the IBB. And M.K.U.A. Biola's son Abdul Muni says Babangirah remains one of Nigeria's greatest problems. And moving away from that, the Nigerian Senate has denied proposing the creation of 20 new states. This is Plus Politics. I am Mary Anna Cole. A former military dictator, General Ibrahim Babangirah, during a recent interview claimed that there would have been a bloody coup if the June 12, 1993 presidential election, which the late chief, M.K.U.A., Biola, presumably won the election. But then it was annulled. Now, the son of late M.K.U.A., Abdul Muni had responded to this statement saying that IBB was scared of losing power. And his legacy to a Yoruba person, he further said that the former military head should be quiet due to the damage he has caused the nation. And not try to prefer solutions. Now speaking on the 2023 elections, he said the greatest problem we have in this country are the five Babas that are on the hilltops, whose permission need to be gathered before anyone can be president. Well, joining us to discuss this is Abdul Muni, Biola, himself, and Kazim Afegua, spokesperson of the former head of state Ibrahim Babangirah. Thank you very much, gentlemen, for joining us. Thank you for having me, Mary. All right. So I'm going to start with you, Kazim, because you're the spokesperson for the former head of state. And a lot of people have had a lot to say in response to that video and that interview that he had with Arise TV. So I'd like to start with the fact that he said that his government is a saint compared to that of the present government, which is obviously democratic government, compared to the fact that that was a military administration. Why do you think that IBB had to say this? I mean, fast and foremost, the pundits who are speaking on this issue are saying that government was a dictatorship compared to a democracy where we find ourselves in. Is there really a basis for comparison? What comparison are you talking about? Because you're echoing when you're asking a question. Your principle said that his government was a saint compared to the government under Buhari. And I'm asking, what is the basis for comparison? One was a military-led government, and this one's a democracy. Yeah, the interview is self-explanatory. He was just trying to draw a comparison based on realities of ground that during their time, he sucked a military administrator from his property in 313,000 Naira. But at this base, corruption is in the realm of billions and billions of Naira. If you do that comparison, you see that corruption during his time was no less like a child's play. So that's why he made that reference. But really, can a democratically elected government jail people like what was happening under your principles government? I mean, this is a democracy, and then we have to follow the process. Again, that was done under a military administration. Well, when you talk about jailing people, I'm sure you are aware of what is happening in Nigeria today. I'm sure you know so many Nigerians are, you know, cooling off and breathing, just in different jail homes just because they try to express their views. Did those people have their day in court or not? You said what? Did those people that you're referring to have their day in court or not? They have what? I can't get you. Now, you're saying that we, that you know the realities on ground and that there are people whose heels are cooling in jail cells in Nigeria. And I'm asking those people that you think are in jails because of this government or some form of corruption, did they have their day in court or not? Well, you may say that people are, what I'm saying is that people are in jail for different reasons. There are those who are in jail for corruption. There are people who are undergoing trial. There are people who even have ECCP who are appointed into this government whose cases were not conclusive before they were appointed. So you cannot, you cannot say you are for the corruption on the one hand or on the other hand, you are treating corruption with good blows. Let me come to you, Abdul Mumuni, because you had a lot to say concerning what the former head of state said in terms of the coup that he thought he had averted as a result of annulling the June 12 election. And you had a very interesting set of statements for him. But let's start with the June 12 issue. He explained during that interview that if he had not done what he did, then there would have been a bloody coup. But why do you choose to say that he was afraid that he would be succeeded by a Yoruba person? I mean, they allowed the election to take place even though the annulment was for security reasons according to him. Mary, first of all, they asked, they allowed the election to take place but they never expected to be able to win. They assumed that the Northerners would win because they apparently have the numbers. But what they didn't understand is that when a leader sells a vision to his people, what happens is the vision is what the people believe in. The other candidate did not really have anything to say. Matter of fact, in that election, if you notice, there was actually a debate. In that debate, my father floored his opponent's hands down. It was seen across Nigeria. People saw what they were going to gain from a bill. And when he talks about a bloodless coup or a violent coup, my father was adamant on not being violent. My father was one who secured the nation from having blood all over the country. My father, even when he was being led to prison, God knows when they took him to Gulag or wherever, Guangalada or wherever they took him to, he made it clear that he didn't want any of his supporters to be violent. That was why there was no blood and there was no bloodshed. Even after the fact that they had deprived the Nigerian people of their own mandate. My father said, look, I am the leader. I can sacrifice my life. But Nigerians' lives should not be sacrificed on the altar of my position. He was ready to lay his life down. And that's what leadership is about. So when I hear his excellency or if you want to call him the dictator, talk about being a marijuana, I will tell you for a fact that this person that we are looking at lacks the the the attitude of being a leader. You see, when you have a leader, you don't go around calling your subjects they, you say we, because as a leader, we don't, you don't do it all by yourself. The people will do what you, the vision yourself to them. The people are the one that will actualize it. So you don't go around saying they, they are this, they are that. When you talk like this, I think he believes there's maybe the son of the queen or something because he sounds like Lord Lugard talking about his subjects. We are Nigerian. He's a Nigerian. I think he's a Nigerian. But from what I heard and the way he's talking to Nigerians, I believe he's saying day, day, day. And once you say day, then you have to move yourself from the equation. So maybe he's not part of the country. So that's where I got it. That was one of the reasons why I was, that's why I said, you know, he might, I think maybe because of maybe with the age, you know, sometimes after you have been lying to yourself for so long, the life becomes the truth. Now, the reason there was no bloodshed was because my father was adamant on this. If was any other African leader, they would have created, he had support. He could have told his members to, to make the life ungovernable. My father was adamant on not doing that. Matter of fact, he made clear to everybody that look, they carry me to jail. They carry me to jail. Don't be violent. We have to, we will get peace, but we don't want peace of the graveyard. My father made it clear that his own, his life was, he was ready to lay down his life for the future of the nation and not for just because he, because my father already had everything. He had everything he needed in life. They had assumed that if they had, even if they had even put him in jail, they can go and beat him and say, oh God, come, take your money back, go to your palace. My father refused. You see, they didn't believe that that was possible. You know, they didn't believe that there would be a man like Abiela, who was obviously the richest in Africa, who was ready to lay down his life for the betterment of the Nigerian people. And that is exactly why 20, 28 years later, we're still talking about Abiela. And that is exactly why this June 12th, that he had known will continue to hunt him for the rest of his life. Back to you, Mr. Fayeboa, I know that you want to respond, but this interview, a lot of people have also said that, asked why IBB is now sitting down to talk about the June 12th situation. Is he trying to make things right? Has he realized that he made a lot of mistakes and he's trying to see if he could retrace his steps, even though he no longer is in power? Well, thank you very much. Well, thank you very much. I can understand the sentiments with which an Abdulmumini, MQ Abiela will speak. I can understand the sentiments, wanting to be the son of a president. But in power game, there is often, you know, scenarios that may appear invisible to you, but when they play out, then you begin to see the reality on ground. You see, Abdulmumini may not know the internal dynamics of what factorized the June 12th struggle. Even the announcement of the election itself, to me, was a coup, within a coup. And so voicing out his sentiments, understanding the so, and his painful, that his father died in the process, that is painful. But again, I think he is largely ignorant of the factors and issues that dominate the June 12th discourse. And so to that extent, by the way, he was the president. He knew exactly what security reports he got. He knew exactly what information was at his disposal. And so if he says that he was sure that there would be coup within three months, that would be bloody, he must be saying that from the point of view of information that was available to him at that point, and not on the basis of sentiment. That's one. Secondly, I think Abdulmumini need to understand that, generally, IBD plays a very formidable role in the aspiration of NCO Abdullah. He may not also understand that IBD actually was what would prevail on Abdullah to contest that election. And if he wants to get more information about the issue with, I'm writing a book on that, and I will give an instance where that took place. But the senior Abdullah sons understand the dynamics and what went on. They won't come on television to the voice of the kind of sentiments, because those who are familiar with the internal dynamics of that final June 12th talk will know that IBD had an individual play aside from being the head of state at that time. So I can excuse Abdulmumini for that, which, like I said, the father is painful, but once you are ready to come out to contest the election or to struggle for power, you won't be ready to also die for the country, because in part of the world, we want leaders who are ready to sacrifice for the common good of all. Mr. Figuar, can I come in there, because you have said a lot of things that have raised questions in my mind. First things first, you are saying that Abdulmumini is too young to understand the inner workings of the military administration under General IBD, and you're also now saying that if anyone wants to run for an office or you want to lead the country, especially under a military rule, you should be ready to die. So you're telling me, in other words, that maybe your principle knew that for power to hand over to civilians while there was a military administrator or administrator in power, somebody had to be killed or blood had to be spilled? Is that what you're trying to tell me? No, no, no, I think you need to be the game of power for you to know how power resonates. If you follow the code that power is a crazy aphrodisiac. It makes men blind to their intentions, and it coincides with the one who wins power. So there are scenarios... So but in Nigeria, you should be ready to die because you want power. Is that what you're telling me? Listen to me, as an individual, I have my own orientation. I have my principles. But like I've also said, we want leaders who are ready to sacrifice for the good of the country. Not necessarily dying, but even the struggle that comes on would have fine, but they are placed in history. They will forever remain sacrosanct. They will forever remain remarkable. What I'm saying, in essence, is that the June 12th struggle, the June 12th annulment was a coup within a coup. And don't forget that even after I had been left, of course, to come to Aguola and lead Abbasia, I got together and we're trying to form a government. And whether you like it or not, I'm going to Aguola, not the need of those persons who participated in the government of Abbasia. The likes of Ola Guluwa, the needs of Abbasia. They were all not the needs of MKO. So what I'm saying, in essence, is that power gave us its own addictive properties. And it is only when you are involved that you get to understand the dynamics. We are practicing a democracy now whether you like it or not. There are a lot of unsatisfactory realities. People still want to... I think we will come to the democratic part of this conversation. I'll just put a pin there. I would come back to the issue of democracy because I want to push back on some things. But let me go back to Abdulmumuni. Would you care to respond? Because he's really saying that you have no understanding of the intricacies of power play, especially within this country and under military administration. And you might be too young to understand the things that happened and all the water under the bridge. He's also said that your elder brother does understand it and that's why he's a lot more silent. And why are you speaking? First of all, let me say this. You want to say whatever you want to say. I was in Nigeria in 1993. I was there when my father decided that he wanted to run. I was also there when my mother was shot in the head. Now, what is exactly do I not understand? I want to understand. After 30 years of this democracy, we're in the worst position that we were in when we started. What is he saying? Talking about power makes you drunk or makes you completely inept. Does it make any sense? I don't understand where he's coming from. Do you like what is happening in Nigeria today, Mr. Kazim? Are you pleased? Do your kids go to school in Nigeria? Did you send them to hospitals in Nigeria? What exactly are you on about? What I'm saying to you right now is, fine, what has happened is what's under the bridge. I'm already 30 years old now. I'm 37 years old. I'm an adult. I have kids. I am saying that the mission cannot continue to listen to old garbage, especially when we're moving forward. My history here is very simple. I might not understand the intricacies, but it's very simple. You started a process. Be a man and follow through. You said the man convinced my father to run. This was not the first time my father tried to run. He tried to run in 1983. They said something funny like the ticket is not for sale. What these people don't understand is that they thought my father was all about money. Money was the least of my father's ambitions. My father was poor when he was born. He understood the factors at hand. And he said, Nigerians will solve Nigerians' problems. What I'll tell you for a fact is they never believed Abela will win. They said he's from the West, you know, Yoruba. He will never win against the Northern. My father showed them that he was in true. They thought, oh, it's a Muslim-Muslim ticket. He will never walk. My father debunked that rumor. Every step of the way, they tried to truncate his progress, but he showed them that you people don't even understand the concept of democracy itself. Look, I'm not arguing with this man. The man is old. It's a wrong share. And the funny thing about this is that this man that we're talking about, when I was born in 1984, if this man is actually his spokesman, if you know this, he came to my father's house in 1984, and it was a big party. Apparently he's supposed to be my godfather. So for me to be talking like this, I'm just saying to myself that, look, when we have a situation like this, I am not talking for me alone. I'm talking for 211 million Nigerians right now. We cannot continue to be listening to people who are just trying to rewrite history just to protect their own image. Look, if this man really thinks he is very popular and people love him, leave your protection in your house, walk down the hilltop and see what happens. It's very simple. He can prove to us that he's a man of the people and just walk freely. I am telling you for a fact, see, I am not pleased at what is happening in Nigeria today. I go back to Nigeria in 2007 and everything, all I am is a progressive. I am continuing on my father's footsteps, not because I want to be a billionaire or I want to have a house on the hilltop. No, because I understand that Nigeria belongs to me. I don't have any other country, for God's sake. So where I'm coming from right now is very simple. Mr. Kazim, with all due respect, when your book comes out, I will not buy it, so you have to give it to me for free, I am not going to give you my money so that you can continue buying new cars and all this stuff. What I am suggesting to you is, please tell your principal to please leave the nation alone. Come 2023, the youth will decide where we are going to go. But he did have very interesting things to say, even though a lot of people have kicked against it. But he did say that Nigeria needs someone who is progressive and you are saying that you are progressive. He talked about the kind of leaders that we need in Nigeria today. He obviously lamponed Mr. President's government and said several other things. But he also emphasized on the fact that we need to unify as a country as opposed to the different ethnic sentiments that we are experiencing and the people who are asking for secession. He was trying to be a unifier of sorts. He didn't really say he wanted in, because I remember I think sometime in 2012 he did say that he had resigned from active partisan politics. So I don't think he's really interested. He was just maybe lending his voice. He's not really interested in words. This is the same man. He expected that he would leave the corridors of power. After about the Nigerians would call him back and Baba Wah come back and say, you know, it's very funny how these people think. You know, the country itself is a youthful country. We need, yes, we do need a youth president. But first of all, where I'm going with this is we don't need anybody to tell us what to do. You see, leadership and leaders don't go around telling the followerships, go left, go right. You know, it's like a military man giving decrees. Who are you decreeing to? Look, first of all, a true leader. Really, we do not want people telling us what to do. Really, why are we not doing these things if we know how to do it? Why are we still running after the same kinds of people? Taking monies from them and killing people, snatching baller boxes. Why are we not doing the right things if we know how to do them? First of all, I'll tell you this is thematic. What has been done to the Nigerian people is systematic. We don't, what I'm suggesting about leadership is a good leader will give you, will give you the necessary information to make an informed decision. It's very simple. My father said it, don't give me fish. Teach me how to fish. The knowledge is key here. We need to understand the knowledge is key. So what I'm proposing is, in this time we have to, in 2021, and we'll come to 2023, what I'm working on right now is giving people the necessary knowledge. Needing to know the issues. So that way, you are informed. I'm not going to tell my Nigerian people to go and vote left or right or vote for Igbo or Yoruba because it doesn't matter as long as you're Nigerian, you should be able to fight or strive for any position you want in the country. So the issue here is, we should be encouraging education, knowledge. That is how people would move out of this little box. What has happened in Nigeria is, think about it now. Since 1999, the education level, in Nigeria before 1999, was something that people were proud of. They said that the secondary school education level was the best in the world. Our students in Nigeria go to other countries and they excel in. Why is it different in Nigeria? Because it's systematic. They did this on purpose. They wanted to keep people in subjugated so that way they can easily control them. See, look, it's not hard now. They're working it harder now. Look, the message I'm getting at now is leaders don't sit in their lofty palaces and then they start dictating to the masses. My father was very adamant on this thing. Look, what we need to do is address the issue at the source and by doing that, we need to educate more people. In Nigeria, they grew up in. It's not the same Nigeria we grew up in. When he talks about corruption, let him not tell me about corruption. Corruption is corruption, no matter what it is. In his own time, it was one dollar to one naira. Now, it's one dollar to five hundred naira. We learn from you. Don't tell me that in your time it was easier or you were better. Corruption is corruption. Let me go back to Mr. Afewa because you were talking about democracy and a lot of Nigerians who have also pushed back on your principles interview have said that what does a dictator or someone who was under a military rule have to know about democracy. He has not necessarily participated actively and I do not say that, I say that loosely, by the way, in the democratic dispensation in Nigeria. But I remember that a couple of people have asked several questions that have not been answered and I really wish there was a fly on the wall in that room or I was asking the questions. There are unanswered questions under former general IBB's government in terms of the deaths of Delegua. Why wasn't it investigated? I mean, I know that you're going to also come up with a very smart answer but if you must point fingers today and try to see if you can give us some words of wisdom like your principle was trying to give us, the question is, why didn't you do these things when you were in power, when you had all the power to change the fortunes of Nigeria? Why wait now? Why wait till 2021 to start speeding those gems? Again, there are also those who say that your government was not necessarily media-friendly. There are a lot of issues here but I want to start with the issue of Delegua. Why wasn't that issue followed today? Please allow me to respond to a few submissions of Abdulmoumini. Please make sure you answer mine too. But not allow me to follow up. Please wait. First of all, IBB as a Nigerian and a former military president has the right to own an opinion is protected by the 1999 constitution as a fundamental human right of freedom to speak on issues and whether Abdulmoumini lacks it or not he has a better understanding of the intricate logic of the Nigerian federation if there's anything called federation in this country. So my point is, you don't see what has the man got to offer. IBB spoke to our right television. 80 newspapers carried it from page on Saturday. That means his views and opinions are largely sought by people who want to understand his own feelings about happening in the country. That's one. Who are these people and what Paul says that there are people who wants to hear the opinion of the late general and how he feels about the state of the nation? Allow me to speak. If you want to be the one speaking, then I'll keep quiet. No, no, I'm just curious. Allow me to speak. Allow me to speak. I'm just curious. Just help me. I understand. I'm responding to the point he raised. So the point is, IBB will be 80 next week Tuesday. So he's telling us that Nigerians, in Nigeria, he has a right to change. This is the kind of president I want to see as a Nigerian by-and-for presidency. IBB will be telling me what is his own contribution to the evolutionary process of leadership in the country. What is he contributing? What has he been doing to the table? You talk about, it's not all about June 12. In that legacy, where you reside, they moved from that place and they go to the chaotic. Somebody did that with their money, with their resources. But there are people who are not doing that. There's somebody who ran the government for eight years and did it construct one kilometer of what he laid off there. There are a lot of achievements that IBB put forward when he was president. So it's June 12. It's June 12. It's just a scam. But it is not the case. All the gains that he recorded, he was talking about the media. There was a media friendly. He liberalized the media. Even as a mutual government. AIT, China, all got their licenses as private media platforms. So the bank sector was liberalized and all the new big guys who are into this money bank access bank, all of this. They took off from doing IBB. So if you want me to mention so many, I will mention, but time will not permit me. Time will not permit me. But I want to rephrase one of my questions just quickly. As a Nigerian, he has a right to own an opinion. You cannot take it without rights. Definitely. It has been a legible right that is guaranteed by the Nigerian constitution. Definitely. Everybody has a right to expression. But my question again, the issue of daily giewad. We know, we all know the story. He was killed by a lesser bomb. The government tried to absolve itself. But what stopped the government from investigating and following through to make sure that they found the person who killed him. What government? Are you sure we are conversant with the issues of daily giewad? Oh, yes, I am. Please. In case you would like to also educate me on air, please educate me. Are you aware that there was a trial? There was a trial. There was investigation. There were submissions. There were conclusions. Are you aware that... What it was, the duty of the government to fish out the killer. Who was the killer? Are you aware that there was a legal disputation about the issue of daily giewad? I am still asking the same question. I am aware of all of these things. But where is the killer? There should have been a point at which, with all of the things that happened, with all of the sessions and all of the cases, the investigations, the hearings, why couldn't the government as powerful as that of General Ibrahim Babangida not able to fish out the killer of daily giewad? How many killers, as powerful as America is, were they able to find out whether they were living in the deaf and hearing, as powerful as it is? Are there no legions of all these rough mothers? So you're making an excuse that a government who is today telling us how we should run our democratic system today is unable to fish out a killer of a journalist, one of Nigeria's finest journalists. You're making an excuse. This question is too pedestrian, my dear sister. As pedestrian as it is, please help me understand why you are brushing off the issue of Nigeria being unable to fish out a killer for a government that wasn't just civilian. It was a military government. So we had all of the powers to do that. And you're comparing it to America. America is hundreds of years ahead of us. So of course, go ahead. Let's continue the comparison. As much as you say this is a pedestrian question, I would like a pedestrian answer if you don't mind. Why can't you talk to me? Well, unfortunately, I think we can't hear Mr. Afibwa again. So I'll come back to you, Mumuni. I saw you raising your hand. Yeah, like, you know, you see, this is all semantics. And I'm telling you, you know, you can't start your mixing. See, the bottom line is what was done during that time was just as bad. You know, let's not call it speedy-speed. This was let up bombs, you know, because you get a meal, like, well, all I did, you know, these are the kind of things people were capable of. What I'm getting at here is we should not be fooled yet again. It's very simple. I made it clear in my statement, you know, when I saw the speech itself, I just looked at somebody who was trying to redeem himself. The first thing you do when you want to redeem yourself is first of all, apologize. You know, I was wrong. Apologize. This is why I think that Nigeria is always so backwards, you know, because the same old story over and over again, and we look for different results, why do we seem that we, why is it like, it's like, it's like we're cursed. It's like we go back to the same old people looking for answers. And he made a comment about, I think he was making a comment about the legal state, former legal state government, Ashwajubola Mehtinbu. If not for Ashwajubola Mehtinbu, that man fought through Nageko. He fought for the restitution of democracy in the country and was so lucky that we even have an alternative. The alternative might not be perfect, but it's better than what we had before. So for me, I would go, I would not even try to even start picking and choosing which one and which. And you talk about building Thaumiland Bridge. It's actually like he used his personal money. The people's money, the people who built it. He just happened to be the one at making, signing the paper. But you were signing on behalf of Nigerians. Don't think that you have, this is another problem with Nigeria. You build something that with public funds, you say you want to have commission. But the same could be said about Bala Mehtinbu, of course. When you say he fought and all the things that you think he did, the strides and the gains obviously was taxed by his money. So... What I'm saying is not with taxpayer's money. What I'm suggesting here is that when you start to say one is better than the other, there's no reason to do that because everything is in its own context. So for me, I believe that when Asuadju was governor at the time, if you have noticed, I think in the second term they have stopped giving them local government funds. There were so many things done to try to belittle the man and try to suppress his progress in the nation. So God knows, the fight for our democracy is still ongoing. Like I said, Asuadju has done his part and it's now left to everybody else to continue as we go. Like for me, he said that maybe I don't know, what am I doing? Well, quickly, because we're running out of time, because I want to go back to Mr Fegua to wrap this up, he did ask you a simple question as to what solutions are you bringing to the table? What kind of leader are you proposing for Nigeria? Just as his principle has also made his case, what is your case? Okay, first of all, when it comes to picking a leader for Nigeria, I don't have any right to tell Nigerians what to do. What I am doing on behalf of the nation is by informing people to have like a radio program that I do, trying to encourage people to not sell their votes to understand the issues that we are facing today. That's one. Two, what I'm also telling you that even today in the democracy we have today, we have people that I can identify with as true Democrats. Okay, first of all, I worked with Aragu Shalak in Osho States. That's when we came up with the O-Mails, the Opoima program. We did the Ogao, he employed youth. We're doing things that we could, but if you understand that we're doing things by the funding we had in the states, what he did is best. Even to today, as the minister for Interior, he's working, trying to revolutionize the possible process and even just the ministry itself by getting better fire equipment for the fire department, helping with the immigration process to make it easier for people to get back on the ground. This sounds to me like a campaign of sorts for Aragu Shalak. There are many people who would also disagree with you that he didn't do great in office. Unfortunately, I don't think I want you to do this, to carry out this campaign on my show. One more thing to say, one more thing, and then you can go to Mr. Aragu, because I think he's the showcase of this event. I've also gone around the country, I've met people, I've listened to their needs. The same thing my father was complaining about is what is happening today. I once mentioned one more person that I believe has also done something in his own private, in his own space, and he has done, and I'm pleased with what he was able to do in Kogi state, for example. He was, he's a youth he made sure that most of all his cabinet members were also youth. So he's a youth revolution. If you go to that state today, you'll find that that state is bordered by 10 other states. We're not here about kidnapping, we're not here about anything. What I'm suggesting to you is that the future and the way forward for Nigeria is when we forget these old babas and we start to handle these things ourselves. The way I will solve the problem is different from the way my father would have solved the problem. My father's time is past. It is time for the youth to take over control of the nation. Here you are. All right. Mr. Fegwa, I mean, I'm again, I just asked the questions. Really, is it about the age of a person or is it about the experience or the ideas that you need to run a country and run it's a right? I think my brother is very like Mr. President who is, you know, detained by the past. When you challenge the APC government, they tell you the problem of the country. Meanwhile, they are presently occupying the driver's seat in our governance process and are unable to deliver democratic dividends when they should do. So when you keep hammering up, you are not looking at the future. You are not creating opportunities that will help us to get credible elections that will throw up, you know, credible leaders to represent us. Then we have a problem. And my point is I don't have a problem with anyone holding a new position or anger, grievances all that. But when people speak it helps our documentation process. It helps researchers. It helps historians to put history in its proper perspective. So as far as I'm concerned I believe in this democracy no matter the imperfections or the intricacies and what have you but I also believe that for you to throw up the new leadership that is democratically elected we should be able to ensure that our elections are credible. The evil thing issue came on board. I didn't hear Abumumini's voice condemning the the rejection of evil in the national assembly. I didn't see him protest on the streets of neighbors to say that no, this is not proper for a contemporary democracy like us and it's a person to reward. So what I'm saying in essence no matter what you say IBB has its losses it has its losses. It made a lot of achievements in this country. He's a real engineer in the governance process in this country and he also made some mistakes. He's a human being he cannot be perfect. He cannot play the role of a God. But on the general scale what he did more what he did better than those ones you consider to be bad and he also said not to take a decision at all will be bad but it is better to take a bad decision than not to take a decision at all. So whatever decision I have taken when he was a president he owed not to the responsibility of me. He said, yeah, hold me accountable. That is how contemporary leadership should be. Alright, in closing Mr. Febua, we have to go to one of the ones who are ruining the country. We have to go quickly quickly. You are his spokesperson you're the general spokesperson if you were to speak to him after this what would you advise him to do in terms of this? Especially for his name to be written in gold once again shouldn't he be apologizing to Nigerians just like Abdul Muni said like you have rightly stated he had his faults and those faults are continuously remembered by Nigerians so shouldn't he be apologizing at least to Nigerians? His name is already written in gold he's the person on the side of the divide we are looking at because after in this democracy our courts have been a non-election heaven is on fire. Our courts have been knocking off a lot of elections and don't forget that there are two sides to a coin. MRC played a role in the annulment because the first beach had a certain case when I was down right. We don't think it's all about Nigeria two parties participated one voted for A one voted for B and in the annulment if you go to history you see the politicians written by NRC to complain about their elections you see people who went to courts to challenge the father they want him to a dollar war the insignia of LZP which is a white house we have to go I want to thank you Mr Kazim I'm so sorry I have to thank you here Kazim Afeboa is a spokes person of former head of state Ibrahim Bada Moshi Bawangira thank you very much for speaking with us of course I want to appreciate Abdul Mummini Abiola he is the late MQ Abiola son thank you gentlemen for speaking with us time is not our friend thank you well we will take a quick break and when we return we will quickly look at those who are advocating for 20 new states in Nigeria we will see you in the next video goodbye