 Thank you so much for hanging under with us tonight, and thank you so much for watching our film It's such an honor to be here with this organization in front of all of you The one thing that we always tell you know everyone who were For two minutes to show this film to is that you can ask us anything We're all about transparency and accountability and There is one there's one major update that is not in the film My mother passed away Right after this film came out three years ago, and I don't even know why we haven't put it in there I just got a block on it or something. I don't know but she she died of her injuries and But She did the film came out and she knew that you know We were making the film you saw that I mean she participated in it. She had every Chance to tell me no and she always felt that you know She wanted her story to be out there, and you saw how she fought up until the day she died and When the film debuted on HBO Into it was a December when we came out and then There was just this I mean we had no expectation for this movie. We were we finished this movie two hours before it came out I mean we were just trying to get it out there and There was this we were so lucky to be able to not only tell our story, but to have HBO Give it to 20 million of their viewers and We the press grabbed on to it the the patients The public you know and the patients and their families Really jumped that they jumped on board Well, I was definitely as I told Dave the first time I ever showed in front of medical people I David called me up, and I said I don't know I don't I think the medical people aren't I hate this movie and he goes I don't know I think you I think you're wrong on that and I told my mom that we were going out to show you know We showed her the reviews for the movie and we showed her all the emails We got we got like 20,000 emails and Facebook's and and we read them to her so she saw that her her Story was catching on out there But then when we told her that we were screening it for medical people as you know She her father was a doctor my uncles are doctors and She you know she couldn't talk but she's like well What happened I said it's the mom your your she was a teacher. I said you're your teaching You're you're a teacher now forever mom So she she before she passed away. She did get to know that her story Was resonating with with audiences all you know is not in partisan non-political kind of stuff. She's Anyway Yeah, she she passed away. Oh, I do want to add one other little thing then we'll take any Nobody's asked a question. Yeah, I know but this one So when my mom died she had this great hospice doctor, but the doctor listed it as natural causes And I'm like oh my god. You got to be kidding me After all of this and I was so exhausted. I was just an art. We had this funeral director Who had literally just seen the movie the night before and? She said well Steve, you know, you got to fight that and I'm like I've just had ten years of fights. I cannot fight this I'm gonna let it go and our funeral director called the medical examiner's office and the head person and said She asked me would you mind I said yeah, go ahead, but I'm not gonna do it. I'm done and I Got a call the next day from the medical examiner's office. They watched the movie They said do we have permission to requisition all of the records from Aurora advocate Aurora and I said knock yourself out You know, I was just like so done Because my mother had just died and then three days later I get a call from the medical examiner's office She says look we're so sorry but we've looked at everything now and We're we rarely do this and I don't know what it's like in other states, but it was constant I'm told this is very rare they changed her cause of death from natural causes to accidental death due to medical error Which meant a lot to me and and Megan our funeral director was the one who did it, you know Because she just you know, she just cared and that that's one other thing. I would like to share with you Watching everybody today is that you saw for years We we thought we were not not only just all alone But you saw like this kind of uncaring group of people that we were up against I Still I'm in back. They're going they just I don't I don't get it But then here we are with all of you and you guys are all like you care in the extreme and I Mean you you've you've filled my tank with gas today was just a It was just awesome to watch all of you participate today. So thank you Any any questions? Uncle Ted Yes, yes, we did as you all saw that uncle Ted was all in He was the one. He was the general. I was just you know I was the foot soldier. He told me what to do and I did it and then as we got closer to trial You know, I would always send him all the medical reports and all the legal and the depositions and stuff And he stopped reading them and I called my aunt who's married to him. She's the nurse. I said, what's going on with Ted? He's not like returning my calls or emails and she said Ted's he's on the fence This is like six years in I'm like on the fence I'm out there with my ass flapping in the wind and Ted is the guy you know what and he said and what she told me was that he went out golfing with some of his doctor buddies and Mentioned that he was in this peripherally involved in this litigation of some kind over his sister and the brain thing and all the facts the and he They didn't like it So Ted was out and then she told me the only person she said the only person you can get Ted back in is is me so I Called him you saw the call and I thought I can't believe this and Margot actually filmed it. I didn't even you know I was I never thought he would cut out like that But he cut out and then we had to he had to be subpoenaed for his deposition and it's not really clear in the movie but The first question that the defense that we had one lawyer and they had like 12 and And they were all afraid of Ted the defense attorneys had never in their careers had a doctor on the other side of plaintiff So they were like Dr. Payne. Oh, can we get you like a ham sandwich? Would you like a massage? It was it was ridiculous and I'm sitting next to Ted at this Deposition and the first question is did you tell Steve Burroughs to get an attorney? Because we had all been asked that same question. Why did I get an attorney so fast? and I said my uncle Ted told me to do it and Margot Cindy my sister so they finally asked my uncle and he goes I Did not tell Steve Burroughs to get an attorney it was like That was like one of the worst moments in my life actually and then he lied 30 more times during that deposition Then he got thrown off her own case It's almost comical now that it you know It's years away, but yeah, that's the reason is a I guess you would say Peer pressure I would I would call it cowardice Yeah, he he just about Killed our case and maybe actually did great question. No, thank you. Yes, sir. Dr. Remsey Thank you. So yeah, thank you Really was an amazing film. Congratulations on having the 42 to be able to make that movie. That was tremendous Thank you medical profession clearly failed you and failed your mother But the legal profession failed as well and I just wonder I've been involved a lot So I ran a department for 30 years with a lot of malpractice suits and legalities and It's almost a game with the lawyers with the attorneys. It's not right or wrong That using trickery that you find out the defense attorneys and the other guys Drinking at night together that you know their buddies they train together it whatever it Seems to me there ought to be a we ought to have a better system of bringing accountability in on us And you know we they've talked about a national patient safety board, but this isn't part of it I don't think I don't think would have the wherewithal build to Handle this kind of thing but there ought to be a way that the state medical boards could really put something Really independent into assessing a standard of care And and have some real thought behind it and so that You know clearly Medicine failed there. They made some terrible mistakes But the legal profession didn't help you the malpractice system didn't work and it should have worked And yet I don't think it's a good system having seen or so much of it in action that I Think we have to have some better system of accountability, and I'm really not sure what it is or how you could even change it because There's you know It's been that way for so long. I mean the different states do have taught reform or changes that limit what they can do sometimes but We want something that works for you and You know senses us if we do something wrong and so that everybody learns from it and it's done in a just fair way and All these shenanigans that keep going on in court shouldn't happen and yet I think they do and I'm not sure it's about right or wrong at all. I think it's and trying to get a solution It's more financial for the players involved and Not your best interest necessarily at all Very well said. Thank you. Can I take this one thing? You're right. The adversarial system does not work and it's Like immediately after this that the doctors basically turn their backs to us. They wouldn't talk to us We had no other way to try to find out what happened to Judy and That's how come the lawyer, you know that that was our option one of the things that when we've been showing the film to young medical students and One of their first questions is if somebody would have sat down with you right afterwards and apologized and explained what had happened and Took responsibility for financially and otherwise and helped your mother-in-law would would you have wanted to sue and I can assure everyone we would not have done that because What happened really hurt Judy, I mean it ruined the rest of her life and It was not how she wanted to live but it also her family was totally impacted also I mean, we've just had to sell our house in California to because we got so into this and Trying to help her we put ourselves You know, we didn't even count ourselves anymore So we didn't know was gonna go on for ten years either. There was a point where I was told early on We don't think she's gonna survive So it became week-to-week and then she came out of it and then was she gonna come back And then it's like six months and then it's a year the next thing you know. It's 2014. It's 2016 and as you saw like I I've kind of lost my shit. I mean I literally you know, I look at that I go I'm like just this side of Ted Kaczynski, you know, I'm I'm kind of out there because I was so Obsessed with What they didn't do right and I think Margo's right like we've heard it from so many other patients And then we know that the vast majority of doctors and nurses and hospitals are all doing the right thing We're all trying to do the right thing. The question is the moment of truth, right? Because no one wakes up and says hey today. I'm gonna cut off the wrong leg Or I'm gonna operate on the wrong side of the body or I'm gonna do something wrong. That's not the first harm You teach this Tim you teach this as well, you know, the first harm is never intentional But that second harm that third harm that fourth harm lying to us Changing those anesthesia records. I would have never known that But my uncle looked at it. He goes fake in 10 seconds he saw it and Then you've got all these expert witnesses from the defense by the way that in the on video They're all saying the same thing so but the adversarial court thing I can tell you in our experience does not work and She's right if someone would have sat us down and said Steve this happened. We are sorry We're gonna do everything we can to get your mom back the way and we're gonna teach it and we're gonna tell everybody in the hospital how this went awry and We're gonna just make it right And I guarantee you I wouldn't I wouldn't be here today You know, I think I don't know about other families Most of the families that we've talked to that had this just want the same thing we wanted Just be straight with us Tell us, you know, give us the bad news, but look us in the eye and don't lie It's not just tell the truth is all don't lie I mean patients know that that doctors are human and they're you know mistakes are gonna happen And of course, you don't want one to happen to you but when it does I think if if if there's openness and transparency and Very few people are going to want to continue to fight because their lives have already been irreparably harmed by by the air so If they don't have to fight in court fight the doctors fight the system they can start trying to heal and That's something that like we've been asked especially him about finding closure and I can tell no Yeah, there's me. Yeah, there's no closure and and it's hard. I Would just also add that Like you saw that nurse that young nurse. She was a 23 year old nurse who was left with my mother in that ICU with no bedside doctor She had only been a nurse for four months. I think this this poor girl I felt bad for her, right? We're at trial and I can see you know, we're over here and they're over there I can see her family. Her family is sobbing, you know, they're talking about, you know Somebody told do I think that that girl went in and changed those records by herself? I Do not I mean she did but somebody told her to do it But that girl by the way at the end of that trial. She was no longer a nurse. She quit What kind of promise did that young lady have If she would have been supported, you know her her system through her literally under the bus and You know, we would go like during this trial We would we were told to never look at them Don't look at their family and you know, we go out in the hall and go to the restroom And I'd see Emily and she'd look at me and I knew she wanted to talk to me And I wanted to talk to her and I wonder what would have happened if we would have talked 10 years before I think this whole thing could have been avoided. Did anybody learn anything like Did any of the parties in this Our story, did they learn anything? Did medicine get any better? Like you said doctor, did the legal system get any better? No No, and we all know there's a better way. Yes, sir Steve thanks again for sharing this if you and I have talked about and I want to follow up on what he said please as a Myself a physician and an attorney. There's professional standards for the medical profession which failed you But also from the legal profession Are you at liberty to talk about some of the conversations? We've had about the legal approach Well or No, because you look at this as an attorney and go this is legal malpractice Letting those people out of the lawsuit the way they did the way they prosecuted and the rest of it So many of us are watching this we go to Steve and go are you effing kidding me? Yes You got just like you said you got whacked by the medical profession, but also the legal profession from the Professionalism on the part of the legal people. Yes, but I'm not sure you can comment on that Well, I I'll I'll I'll kind of dance around it in the best way I can however So we had this screening Shortly after the film came out we you know, we trusted our lawyer we always he's been doing this for years It's a strategy. I guess I don't know You know, but when he dropped Bauer and Hoime the surgeon anesthesiologist we thought in our gut wait that ain't right but he didn't even tell us he just did it and Apparently that can't happen, but he did so anyway, the film comes out we're screening it for actually, you know, it was a med star screening Dave and One of the top lawyers for med star came up Afterwards he said I'm so sorry this happened to your mother. This is the first thing he said I'm so sorry this happened to your mother. Please tell me you're going after your lawyer. I Remember going what? We just And he goes take a hard look and I think the one thing we can tell you is in the last couple years There are attorneys who are very sophisticated with this kind of stuff they I mean, you know They see what you all saw You don't have to be a lawyer to see that something went wrong wrong here with the legal part of it When Bauer and Hoime were dropped that can happen and apparently Legally it can't happen and it did and all I can say is we've we are Yes, what's the what's the best way to say it I don't well we were further along than just looking at our options Thank you, that's good. I got to write that one down Yes, but but that's that that's enough and what you're what you are suspecting here is true That's all I can say I've said too much. Thank you very much Good question, Tim Steve I want to thank you for putting the little part in about the Mayo Clinic and talking about the opposite end of the spectrum Yes, as to what to expect. I'm full disclosure. I'm with the Mayo Clinic. So again, thank you I appreciate you being in there. I wanted to ask you though I know there are a lot of organizations that try really hard to do the right thing and in your situations quite unique Did you come across anybody else that's doing things a little bit different a little bit better for patients that? Maybe just didn't make the cut in your film or didn't get acknowledged in some way. Well the great question Yes, but when we made this film I Have to say I mean this is we were like every other harmed patient We didn't know that this was even a thing, you know, we didn't know this existed So yeah when we first started Mayo Clinic exactly we didn't know there was a patient safety movement We didn't know patient safety was a thing We had no clue. We didn't know that you've all been working on this stuff for a long time and We you know, we we met Dr. McCary through his book and In my mind just in popular culture, you know, the Mayo Clinic was like, you know They're the good guys, right? They're the cavalry or something But we we didn't happen. There was no cutting room that that was our only interview of HBO wanted that they wanted they said can you show somebody who's kind of doing it, right and We interviewed them but when the film came out then we started meeting all of these other organizations other hospital systems across MedStar and Johns Hopkins There are literally Dozens that we've met that we've actually worked with and screened the movie that we didn't know and I you know That's you asked that question. I like I wish I would have known when we were making this movie that you all existed Like Leah called me cold. I'm with the leapfrog group. I'm like, what's the leapfrog group? I don't know and We were in it like we were so deep in the trenches, but I would love to and we have a couple tricks up our sleeve I shouldn't say tricks. I mean like projects where I Have now like this is like the sad movie, right? This is like what's wrong There needs to be another film or a television series or something that Does exactly what you're talking about that you know, I showed this one right this train wreck, but There's too many good things happening that we didn't know about that we now do know about that need to be shared with the world and that's that's that's our mission now is I Would say TV show basically that's what that's what I'm working on right now Thank you for saying that yes, and then we can get all of these like all of these wonderful things. You're all doing In an episodic thing because I feel like if I were to make another feature film documentary like this and crammed it all in Then all the good guys are getting like two minutes, and it's like it's just I'd rather like have a long-term Episodic thing where you can spend time with different organizations and different people who are all doing the right things Yeah, new chapter turn the page exactly right and a TV series is a better way. I think to doing it this time around But yeah, great question. Thank you So yes Steve I have a question. Yes Do you think that Aurora has learned any lessons from this? I Don't know why I'm laughing Did you hear the question? Yeah, yes Does anyone want to take a guess a wild guess? I can I can tell you that When this film came out Oh, I got it. I got to tell this story. So When HBO decided they were gonna make this movie They told me About four years before it came out It was such a slow process. They said we're gonna make this movie And we're gonna have to legally vet every single thing you're saying because everything in your movie is kind of crazy And we kind of don't believe it so we took a full year with the HBO lawyers like the Game of Thrones lawyers and they went through every second of this film to make sure we weren't That we were telling the truth and then They also said you can't tell anybody you're making this movie for until it comes out because they that was really hard for Yeah, very difficult and they said especially Aurora because Aurora had their day in court They had every chance. They had seven years to do the right thing. They decided not to so just let's shut our mouth and We'll release the film and a week before it came out HBO put out a one-minute trailer and it's still out there they cut together a really tight one-minute trailer and Kind of told the world that this existed and we started getting calls From all of the defense attorneys in this movie for all the doctors on our personal phone threatening us Hey We heard you we heard you're making a movie about your mom and you better not be mentioned any Specifics about her case and you best not be talking about our doctor and you best not be talking about the evidence And they were like I could play you some of these messages. I mean honestly, they scared scared me to death You know several years ago, but now they're really laughable and we get we turn it all over to the HBO I said they're they're threatening Margo and I They said ah HP goes we got it we got this and they sent Aurora a letter because Aurora was demanding to see the movie before it came out with the public they said we demand to see this movie or we're gonna sue you to Kingdom come and I Love this this letter. It's just a one paragraph letter. It says HBO wrote Aurora back and they said dear Aurora Thank you for your interest It's not our policy to show the movie Prior to when we debut it, but if you'd like to watch it, you'll have to get an HBO subscription It airs tomorrow night Monday eight o'clock, but you're on central so that's seven And let us know what you think and that's when we knew We're okay, but I can tell you that Aurora has never apologized I Mean nothing and they by the way that that EICU system. They're proud of it. They still have it They doubled down on it. They they love it. They think it's a great You know, they don't want to pay doctors they like I Mean That thing when you know because we went to trial it took seven years to find out that there was one doctor Watching a hundred and sixty critical care patients like my mother with cameras not on Is that what do you all make of that? So they're still doing it and so Helen to answer your question. I don't know No, they don't I don't know I keep waiting for the phone to ring It's just not happening. I have another question Would you consider showing this at WHO? Sure Yeah, absolutely, we'd be honored. Yeah, I mean Yes, we love it. We'd love the opportunity to show it to anybody that might benefit from it. I Really don't know why the film has I don't really understand Why the film has resonated because I'm just too close to it But some there's I think it's my mother maybe you could tell me but she just Somebody said at one of the one of the hospitals in On the east coast they said your mom is every mom your mom is my mom and You and Margot and our family are our family and people I think Based on what they've told us is that when they're watching our film They're projecting themselves and their families like if this happened to me Would you know and then what like Dave's you said at the top, you know Where I was completely wrong about the reaction from the the medical community You know, they're embarrassed and they they they want to do better and when we show these young Medical students, they're like I can tell you that one of the nicest things that anyone's ever said and it was from the Mayo Clinic It was last summer and there was this young Oncologist who came up to me and he said It was hard to believe he was a doctor. He looked like he was 14 years old And he said he said mr. Burroughs. I just want to say I'm sorry about your mother and I want you to know that How your mother conducted herself will forever change the way I practice medicine And I thought that is the best thing I've heard Period and he meant that you know so and I don't know why he felt that but you know There was something in there that he felt that he I don't know he's gonna be able to Remember Judy was a human not just data not just a Statistics and that he also said there was a you know Judy what we what we show here not intentionally, but that a lot of If something goes wrong on a floor somewhere and doctors and nurses something happens and that patient leaves the floor They don't know whatever happens that patient and this is a this is a film where it shows you That patient keeps going in their families and also as I said with Emily's family I realized every doctor and nurse in our movie who They mean they did what they did but they're they're they've got kids They've got husbands and wives and families and parents and I Saw at our trial that everybody was wrecked Except maybe dr. Darmstetter Yeah Yeah, what do you think of that? I was there in the room when they asked her that what I thought to be the simplest question in the history of medical questions Were you concerned about your patient that was in a coma? Yeah, it's actually 26 seconds and you can see her do all the math and she has to say yes And she goes no And that's probably like the That's probably that's probably the most honest she was Yeah, but that's also like if I could take one moment of the entire film to explain what's wrong that that would be it right there Everything right No, and they kind of forgot that the camera was in the room You know that we just had a court camera and it just kind of after a while people forget And I remember calling you afterwards and I said, you know Darmstetter was asked this question. I swear to God. She like it took her a half a minute to answer And then she said the wrong thing I Told my editor this and when I showed it my editor that clip he goes that is a quintessential moment in your movie like it's you know There's so much in me through this movie and that is just like it's just dead silence and Speaks volumes for what's wrong with our our system any other questions. Yes, sir Thanks, Crystal master minute ear docket Kaiser in Northern California One of the things that I find most resonating about this and thank you so much to both of you for doing this and Sacrificing so much of your lives and showing us how harm ripples out and continues to Thank you healthcare is by design fragmented and reductionists We have specialists that think in their own silos and different groups of people working on their problems But they're not talking to each other. They're not interacting in ways where they can see the whole and That's what your movie does We're able to see every point in time How it impacts the family and how it impacts her and how there are multiple points of harm and it was just For me that was really moving and important. I really thank you for it. Oh, wow. Thank you very much That helps me understand a lot, you know Because we like again, we're so deep in the weeds we don't Even now after it's been out a little over almost four years now, and we still don't really know what happened, you know But thank you. I want to thank everybody for staying up this late. Yeah Yeah, this was an early morning. You guys are still You guys are troopers. Keep on trucking Anything else? All right, folks. Thank you so much. Thank you so very much