 Welcome to Going Deeper. My name is Marcie Sklove, and today I'm sitting with the Reverend Doctor Andrea Vazian. Andrea is a lifelong social justice worker and activist, and she has most recently started the Sojourner Truth School for Social Change Leadership. I've been practicing that all morning. And I just want to thank you for coming and being with us. Thank you, Marcie. I am delighted to be here, and I'm honored to be on the show. Thank you. Sure, sure. So I often start my interviews this way. I'd like to hear how your early life impacted the choices that you made for your path. Like what were the seeds that were planted back then that have informed your whole journey? Well, great. I'm glad to begin there because it allows me to say that I am of Armenian descent, and that is central to my life and my identity. And I think it has informed all the choices I've made in my life. My father, Levan Fred Vazian, was born in Turkey in 1919 during the genocide of the Armenian people, which began on April 24th, 1915. And my father and his brother and his parents escaped literally in the night to Lebanon and then to Paris and then through Ellis Island to America. And my Armenian identity has informed my whole life because I grew up with grandparents on both sides. I'm Armenian on both sides all the way back. And my father and my grandparents told my sisters and me stories of the atrocities. They called them the atrocities, then they called them the massacres, then they called them the genocide. And when we were too young to know these stories, we heard them. And when we were too little, we absorbed the loss and fear and sorrow. And my father, who blessed his memory and his soul, died a few years back, but spent his whole life, he was a physician and a writer. And he spent his whole life trying to get the Armenian genocide recognized by the world, by America, by Turkey, and had great hopes at different times that it would be formally recognized, which it was not. So to have your trauma and the loss and the pain and the wounds not recognized by this country or by Turkey and actively denied by Turkey was a great source of pain for my father who wrote about the genocide, who spoke about the genocide, who told us in great detail about the genocide. So I believe that my Armenian heritage has informed my life and my love for justice. Many Armenians in this country, in the diaspora are committed to social justice and to fairness and to inclusion because of the trauma in our spirits and souls and in our history. And like our brothers and sisters in the Jewish community, we carry the scars and the wounds. In fact, it was, it is documented that when Hitler was planning the Holocaust, he actually was talking about his plans. And a close comrade said to him, you cannot plan for the extermination of a whole people. And Hitler said, who any longer remembers the Armenians? So we were the first genocide of the last century. So my love for justice and my work for peace and inclusion, I think is rooted in the family history and in the history of our people. Wow. I can imagine that given that background, it could have taken you a different way, full of bitterness, full of resentment, isolation, all kinds of things. So it's beautiful that it did take you in positive directions. And you know, I love that you've said that because the Armenian people, my people, my sisters, my family, my grandparents who lived through it. It's such a funny thing, but we balance this great sorrow and this unrecognized, unacknowledged genocide and this loss and pain, and it was brutal, brutal, brutal. And the Armenian people are also joyous and funny and celebratory. And it's a very interesting paradox that we hold these two things in our gigantic Armenian hearts and that we both grieve and can touch and weep about that place so easily and so quickly. And we also are lovers of music and art and are funny and eat and celebrate exactly food and celebratory. And we are this wonderful combination of both. That's very beautiful. It's very beautiful. So from what I know, your social justice work started when you were pretty much in college, right? Right. And that was during the Vietnam era. So tell us a little bit about that. And then when did you have the calling to develop in your spiritual, you know, credentialing as well? Credentialing. I went to Oberlin College in 1969 and the Vietnam War was raging. And I tell people that I must have gone to class, but I don't remember. And I must have had a major, but it seems dim. We were protesting the Vietnam War the whole four years I was there. And what I most remember is that on Friday a whole bunch of upperclassmen, mainly men, would arrive at Tap and Square with great big rented U-Haul trucks. And the backs were, the back of the trucks were filled with hay. I don't know if other people did this. And we would all climb in and lie down in our sleeping bags at night on Friday night and fall asleep in the back of the U-Haul filled with hay. And people would take shifts and drive through the night and we'd arrive in Washington DC to march the next day from Oberlin, Ohio to Washington DC. And if it was hot, we'd get in the fountains and sort of have little mini baths. And that is what I remember most, marching and rallying and vigiling in DC and those long trips in the hay on the way down. The other crucible that really made me who I am today was that it was at Oberlin that I really discovered that I was a woman. Now I knew which box to check when I applied to college. I knew my gender, but I didn't know its political significance. And at Oberlin, gathered around Becca Armstrong's broken little coffee table in her off-campus apartment, a group of women gathered and it was my first women's group and it was my first women's consciousness raising and support group. And we talked about our lives and we read Gloria Steinem and we read Sharon Moronga and we read Fridaen and we read all those. We read our bodies ourselves when it was just a mimeograph stapled together. I do too. Marcy, I do too. That's stapled together, mimeographed early our bodies ourselves and it was consciousness raising to learn that my gender had political significance and to learn the word sexism and to go to the first ever Oberlin College psychology of women class and later to be a TA in that. So the Vietnam War and the women's movement in the years between 1969 and 1973 made a permanent impact on my life that I never varied from, never left. And after Oberlin, the two significant things were that at Oberlin I learned there was significance to my gender and to my being a woman. And then after Oberlin I learned there was significance to my being white. And I had a really strong experience of a African American woman at a gathering I was at in Boston who confronted me and said, Andrew you spent a lot of time talking about the significance of your gender and how sexism is so significant and how men need to work on their sexism and how you do all these women's empowerment things. But as far as I can tell it's the only area where you're targeted. Do you ever talk about the significance of you being white? And it was truly like somebody had just the scales from my eyes as the Bible would say it fell away. And I thought if I who think I am such a fine little activist don't get the significance of my whiteness than other people like me don't understand. And I that was in the early 80s and I devoted myself to learning all about race and white privilege and ended up getting a PhD in racial and ethnic studies and teaming up with Dr. Beverly Daniel Tatum and doing a cross-race dialogue with her and working with her as a biracial parent. We crisscrossed the country for a dozen years. A dozen years talking about anti-racism organizing and education and Bev and I were a team for which I am profoundly grateful and it changed my life forever to have to team up with Bev Tatum who I'm still very close to and just retired as the president of Spelman College. Spelman? Yes. So when you first got involved with her was she at Smith? She was at Mount Holyoke College. So first when I met her she was at Westfield State very proudly then she went to Mount Holyoke College in the psychology and education department and then she became the dean of the college and she became dean of the college when I became dean of Religious Life. So we were together for a number of years in parallel positions. That's really amazing. But I didn't answer about my call to the ministry. Yeah you didn't. So briefly on that my grandfather on my mother's side, Antoinique Arakel Bedikian, it's a beautiful Armenian name AAB, Antoinique Arakel Bedikian was a congregational minister and although a man of small physical stature he was enormous in my mind and we grew up knowing that he was the pastor for over 40 years of the Armenian evangelical church which was the storefront church on 33rd street in New York and he just loomed very large in my mind and he preached in Armenian and in English. He was a remarkable person, an author, a man of letters, a fine preacher and when I experienced a call to the ministry I was filled with doubts because I didn't think I could be like my papa that he was just the quintessential pastor and I couldn't measure up so I actually struggled with my call to the ministry over a 10-year period. Really? Can you describe what the call felt like? When I first experienced it I thought I'm called to the ministry. I was a Quaker at that time and I thought member of the religious society of friends and I thought I'm called to vocal ministry. I really am called to be a pastor but it seemed impossible and I was filled with doubts and so I went into a period of prayer. I applied to Harvard Divinity School and I got in and I walked around and I couldn't envision myself there and I came home full of doubt it was like anguish so I spent 10 years kind of thinking about it and then I got my doctorate and then I just doubted and then but I always used to read all these spiritual books and I kept thinking maybe I'm called to the ministry but I'll never be like my papa and then my partner Michael Clare and our little one Sasha Clairvazian were on Prince Edward Island one summer. Sasha was young and now he's 30 and we were in a cabin by near the water not right on the water and Michael was putting Sasha to bed in the his little room in this cabin on PEI and I was reading Life of the Beloved by Henry Nowan and a breeze was flowing into it makes me cry. A breeze was flowing into the room through the open window and I was reading this book Life of the Beloved by Henry Nowan I read all these spiritual books and Michael clearly had fell in the sleep putting Sasha to bed and the house was quiet and the breeze was flowing and I lay back in the bed on the pillow and I put the book on my chest and I had an overwhelming sense of the presence of God and that I was meant to go to divinity school that I was clearly called that the doubts were over and that it was that I was called and I was worthy and it was completely clear to me at that moment and when I closed my eyes I realized that and this is really funny that I was not going to go to Harvard where I'd already gotten in years before that I was going to go to Yale and then it was fine that it was fine and that was August and from a rickety kitchen table in that cabin I hand wrote on like paper we found right a letter to Yale from Canada saying I had this vision my grandfather's a pastor I think I meant to go to Yale Divinity School I know it's August I hope you'll meet with me and I sent it from Canada and I got a message back saying apply fast we think you can start in January oh my goodness and I did I started in January and why was Yale a better fit than Harvard you know I'm not sure it was oh I'm not sure it was okay but in the vision it was Sasha was little yeah and it was a closer commute maybe that was it and and I met wonderful people and they mentored me Yale did feel very male um and I struggled and I spoke out a lot and I was a social activist who didn't fit in all that well and I brought up things that not all the professors wanted to hear like I would raise my hand and say things like I'm looking at this syllabus and I don't seem to see any names of women are we reading any women are we are we are we reading any women and are there any people of color on this list and they'd say things like you know what what is your problem so let's just say I went through you and got the deal needed you at that moment who knows if yeah but the good news is I graduated oh that's so interesting um so I want to fast forward a little bit good fine now what what churches are you working with because I know you're you're doing something that I haven't yet heard about the Haydenville congregation I heard about was a dream it was a dream and that was 12 years okay and that what that was finished and that became a wildly social justice gospel that I preached an LGBTQ community we did wonderful things and that was 12 years of a wild and wonderful ministry we were as progressive as you could be and wonderful church and wonderful 12 years I retired in um from that church in January of 2017 okay and I realized that I um no longer wanted to worship with predominantly white people gotcha so I started going to churches in holy oak and springfield to just as a retired pastor to just go to just be a congregant sure and I went in all kinds of wonderful places in holy oak and springfield and landed one sunday at the olden baptist church at the top of the state street hill in springfield okay and um the new dynamic fiery fabulous pastor had just been called there dr la love the reverend dr louis anthony love and uh I sat three rows from the back and they looked around and he said from the pulpit do we have any guests here and I was the only white person in the room and they brought back a mic and said will you introduce yourself and I stood up and said I am so happy to be here and I'm so delighted to meet you all and I'm here to worship and I'm a retired pastor and I'm glad to know you and and to meet and hear some wonderful preaching from your wonderful new pastor and the reverend love leaned into the mic at the pulpit up there and he said to me pastor you're the answer to my prayers oh my gosh that's what I said and then he called the passing of the peace so everybody would talk to everybody and he came tearing down the center aisle and he said I have been praying for people to help me bring back this church you were sent to me oh my god and I started to cry and I said I don't know and he said who are you so I have been worshiping there for a year and a half a little over a year and a half wow and sat three rows from the back from a long time until he pulled me forward and now I'm on the ministerial team thank you god gift to my life at the olden baptist church yeah even though I'm united church of christ they will have me somehow and I'm in a baptist church in a leadership role and I love them and I am called to serve that is fantastic wow so that's it's a great fiery beautiful energetic remarkable service that runs from about 1030 to one and the time yeah lies by oh that's great that's just great um um so I want to we have just a few minutes uh for this part one but when I first met you and now I'm confused because if Sasha is 30 my restaurant was started in 1988 the year he was born oh my gosh the year he was born that's the that's when I met you yes because you were all doing the war tax resistor Randy and Betsy's house you came to my restaurant yes got supplies yes and went up there yeah yes Marcy that's exactly right 1988 okay yes and then he was born what mom he was born in April and Randy Keeler is his godfather oh my gosh yeah that is beautiful yeah so that was a huge huge uh activism piece yes and can you just spend a little time talking about other big activism moments here in the valley that you were part of or you could just speak about that one but what what's been happening over time quickly uh we have about five minutes uh the war tax resistance has been a very important centerpiece of my life and um and Randy and Betsy's house being taken and then a group of us went and reclaimed it we were called the morning after team and we went in and reclaimed and lived in the house um for several days reclaiming it and having workshops and singing and and living there so tax resistance has been such an important part of of my life another very important part of my life in the valley has been my work on um lgbtq um the civil rights and civil liberties of the gay lesbian transgender bisexual community and um michael claire my partner and i who you know met and became a couple in 1985 and were very committed to the uh civil rights and civil liberties of the gay and lesbian trans and bisexual community and um decided at that time to defer our marriage this is 1985 until all members of the gay and lesbian community could be married with the same rights and privileges so we spent a number of years almost 30 years um yeah uh yes um speaking about why we were not married not accepting any um obviously we couldn't be on each other's health insurance or anything like that so it's an expensive witness sort of sure because we have to carry different family plans and sasha was born and we were unmarried and um so we did a lot of organizing and a lot of work as a as heterosexual allies to the lgbtq community and i as a pastor married many same gender loving couples many and then a few years ago sasha got right up in our face and said you know you always said that you'd be married i was gonna when all gay and lesbian people could be married and what so what happened here you are you've married all these gay and lesbian people and you're not married i think it's time and we looked at each other and said you know it might be time yeah very sweet so about three years ago sasha got the one day license and he married us and he was 27 and he literally said marcie he literally said dad will you take mom to be your lawfully wedded wife and mom will you take dad and apparently it was a beautiful service i was weeping too hard to sort of notice or remember anything it wasn't videotape but there are pictures yeah of me crying and us so gay and lesbian organizing peace and justice work um anti-racism work with kev um war tax resistance very very important and also earth stewardship that i've done a great deal around um climate change activism and um help found in 2001 help found religious witness for the earth and did a lot of civil disobedience in different cities in different places around climate justice and helped lead the first really large march we marched across um um massachusetts in 2007 starting in north hampton and ending at the state house um and so have done a lot of work renders stewardship wow okay this is a great start um we're gonna keep going in part two right and uh thank you all for being with us and we'll see you in part two