 A very good evening to you. Thank you so much for sticking to Y254 TV. I hope you've had a lovely day today. We are coming to you live from Nairobi, Kenya, and today is the 9th of November. So my name is Sheryl Blessing and I am your host on the Power Talk show. And this evening we want us to discuss a conversation that has been very prevalent in recent years. We want to understand what leads to divorce and separation. We all know we dream of this love story that's have with a happy ending and with no struggles and we all romanticize the idea of finding the one true partner for us. But sometimes we meet the wrong people and then we have to separate from them. What are some of the things that lead to this? How do we avoid making important life decisions like that? And how do we deal with things like that when we are faced with them? And joining me this evening is Jenny Washira, the lovely counselling psychologist and she is the CEO of, is it Sadra, it's a very lovely to have you. How are you feeling? Wow, I'm really excited to be here this evening and thank you for having me on the Power Talk show. We're excited to have you here as well. Thank you so much for joining us and right next to Jenny, we have Nam Festers who is an advocate of the High Court. Welcome Nam. Thank you. And he also looks lovely. Like our guests Leo and Amua, they are dressing to kill. You're very welcome. And I want us to take this discussion slowly, understand what are some of the causes of divorce, what leads to separation, how do we deal with issues like that, the impact of divorce and separation as well as what comes after because definitely there's life after it. So you can go on our social media platforms which is at Y254 on Instagram, Facebook and Twitter. Ask us any questions. If you have a comment, type that out immediately and send it and we will sample your comment as we progress with this show. I'm so excited to hear from you and you can also find me on my personal pages which is at Sheryl Blessing. So I think to kickstart the conversation, we want to understand relationships. We all start from a point of love. We meet someone and we are in our lovers phase, we're in the honeymoon phase. Sometimes it leads to marriage, but then it can lead to separation. It can lead to divorce. So let us understand maybe the definition of marriage, especially from an advocate of the High Court. How do we define love in today's, according to the law, the constitution today? Do you want us to describe love or marriage? Marriage. Because you know, we find some people who are married according to the law, but they're not aware of that. So let us start by defining marriage in the constitution and then we can talk about love and relationships. Marriage is a union, you can describe it as a union of two people, voluntary union of two people at the exclusion of all the others. Yes. Okay. And that was very, it must have read that way in the constitution. I also wanted to get from you some types of marriage because in the past it used to be the traditional and the white weddings, but now we have come to stay. You stay with someone for longer than six months, you're married according to the law. So those are some of the things that I wanted us to understand because in this day and time, so many people cohabit and live with their significant others for years even and afterwards they just go their different paths. So maybe you can define what are some of the things that will make you married according to the constitution? As per our laws of Kenya, we have different types of marriages. The well known marriage is the Christian marriage. These are the ones we see in our religious churches and whichever religion one professes. We also have the customary marriage, the traditional weddings we always see around, where people, they don't intend to go to churches, but maybe they follow a certain tradition to, to summarize their union. Then we can also have the civil marriage. They want people now goes to the attorney general, it has its own procedures. And one thing I have to mention is that even if you do religious marriage or traditional marriage, you have still to notify the AG, that is the attorney general, so that it becomes official and you have the certificate. Churches, yes, produces their certificate of marriage, but they have to also bring it to the attention of the AG, so that it is registered as a marriage. We also have the Islamic marriages. We also have the Hindu marriages. There is one you have mentioned which legally we can discuss, the one called Kamu Stay. It's not a form of marriage within our laws, as I can say, but you will find people practicing it. There are other things that now connect them that might make it dim as a marriage. So it varies with one aspect and another. But the major forms of marriages that have stated are the Christian marriages, Hindu marriage, Islamic marriage, civil marriage, that is now the one called the, the one done by the AG and the traditional marriage. That was very interesting because you know some people think uta pelika ngombe nyumbani na webeni bibiangu, you know. So it was very interesting for you to clarify that because you need to notify the civil system for you to get a certificate of marriage. Now also with relationships, the transition from you meeting this person who you say is the love of your life, most times we meet someone in this day and time. We call people the love of my life and then it sees on all. So next year there's another love of my life. So marriage and love comes, it's intertwined almost because for ladies sometimes we assume if we're dating you, we're dating to marry. I can see you as my husband so maybe Jenny you can give us maybe an image of what your idea of love was and marriage your expectations from relationships that you wanted while you were, while you were dating as a young girl. Okay perhaps to let you know I was married for 12 years but I've now been separated divorced for the last 11 years. So and I know before getting to marriage like the dream of every girl you know you get as you say just during the time of courtship you know as a lady or as a girl you're looking forward to settling with the person and that was it for me. It was not a matter of that like we are wasting each other's times or rather we are having fun. We had a future you know like we you know to look up to you know. Yeah but just getting into that space where you are very naive you know you know fine that is it. No even not putting a lot of work and to eat it will automatically get into marriage and that is it. Yeah but I are shocked on me getting into that that was not the case. So it was different than your fantasies and what you expected. Yeah. Okay and that was interesting you were married for 12 and you've been separated for 11 so that took you it must have taken a lot for you to get to the decision of I'm no longer happy in this marriage I no longer want to be in this marriage. So you can explain the definitions of divorce and separation as a psychologist how do you differentiate the two. First if I may just put it in a layman's language because okay I'm talking as that person who has gone through separation and divorce as well. Yeah but just to before even I get there to let you know no woman and even I want to believe even a man who gets into marriage with the aim that I'm going to get out. So you get into it you invest you do what it is knowing that it's going to last you know. Yeah but while there things happen and there's one thing that a lot of people ignore. I know at the beginning because you wanted to work you'll get to ignore a lot of things there'll be red flags you know but there's this assumption all the time like okay I'll get I'll fix this you know it's okay I can get into it and I fix it and even for from my personal experience you know there was a many red flags but the thing was like this more like I can fix it you know but getting inside there it was not possible and just to I learned the hard way is not easy to change anyone you can only change yourself but you cannot change anybody else. So getting there I know even in the while in marriage even for the 12 years it's not that it was that smooth you know there was a lot of how do I put it okay conflict is expected but to a way like you cannot even agree to solve anything that that comes you know even the conflict you cannot even solve it in a healthy way so there's a lot of it to go to a point though the atmosphere was really heated you know it was toxic and it was about everybody protecting themselves now not to be hurt it's about you yeah but one thing even as to get to the question we've asked you know even you know getting to separation and divorce even before you get you physical you get to physically live you realize that you live fast emotionally you are there but you are not there you left because already you started like now you're starting to protect yourself you're starting to save something for yourself you know in case it doesn't work in case it doesn't go the way it goes so even many of the people were once you come out physically somebody tells you ice I got separated six years ago but I was still I was there physically yes so it's almost like self-preservation so you detach yourself from this person so that when you actually separate physically it does not hurt as much so you started by that emotional separation so getting to the physical and you have already processed a lot of the emotions that comes with separation yeah okay and that's interesting because you pointed out no one gets into marriage with the intention of divorce you do not want even relationships I tend to believe no one truly gets into a relationship thinking that we're going to break up someday you always see the future you always hopeful and just eager to see what is going to come out of it but unfortunately sometimes you separate and as you said it's because you may have so many differences they may be so many red flags and if you're familiar if you've been watching us for so long you're aware that we've handled so many conversations on how to deal with relationships how to identify this red flags and walk away before it's too late so you can go on our YouTube page and just see some of those videos if you want to update yourself but now I also want to understand what's what is the legal process of divorce if I want to let's say I'm married and I decide that it has been so long I've been trying for so long and it's not really working out so I need to separate myself from this guy so first is what is the process of divorce before I come to the process of giving an insight into divorce and separation there is the separation part then there is the divorce part judicial separation is whereby apart decides now or maybe circumstances has now made them may the marriage has not working as much as we cannot say it has broken down it retrieved a bully but there are things that are not working for them the reason as to why one can do a divorce is let me first define divorce before I come to separate divorce is when now you do you dissolve the marriage that you are entered into so there are rules regarding divorce in Kenya like you cannot divorce if the marriage has not been there for less than three years so in such a circumstance you will get as Jenny says you will get someone you has gotten into a marriage after one or two months they find this thing is not working and things are getting down so they decide because with the law restrictors for three years is when we can do dissolve the marriage let us do judicial separation some other people yes you might want to divorce you might want to end the marriage fully but now you find out of your religion or maybe out of your tradition you feel divorce might not work for me so separation is where the marriage is still there legally but physically it is not there yes you people are apart you are doing your things separately so that is that is the difference you will find in separation yes the marriage certificates are there you guys are in you are united because of the marriage but really you people are not obtaining or doing as per the marriage people do so that is when now if you decide if you are not maybe Biden by the three years you are not by the religion or tradition and also the marriage or maybe you think yes we might be as Jenny says you think you can fix things so you say for this this time let me go back to my mother's place let's see you can involve coaches you can involve elders you can involve these people from church so you are still under separation you have not actually made your mind that we just want to solve this the marriage fully divorce is when now you decide let's end this because it is not working for us let us just make it official that we are no longer there okay there are processes going through that divorce like the party who now wishes who is more grieve let's say let me use that who is more grieve like you will find maybe the man here is also feeling we need to divorce but it doesn't want to make the first step so whoever will want to make the first step might approach court there is a way you have approaching court through a petition that is the petition for divorce which you file in court there are documents that accompany it apart from the petition you will as well file an affidavit in support of that petition you will do your witness statements then you file it formally in court whereby you will be given a case number once you file it you also have to file or get from the registrar a notice to appear now for the party that you want to divorce or your partner that you are in a marriage in once that is signed you will have to serve them upon now there at the party you call them the respondent and once they are served they are given 15 days they also need to file in their documents either agreeing that yes we can dissolve this or no yes we can dissolve but now you are saying they are grounds for divorce one is cruelty there is dissession so one might be saying the other one is cruel this one is saying no we are dissolving yes but we are not dissolving on the ground of cruelty it is because of the session so when this other party the respondent comes in you might also file an answer to the petition and a cross petition if he so wishes but he can just decide to file an answer to petition and state his reasons or if he has a green or is not agreeing once that is done then the court will now the party that approach court again will go for something we call the registrar certificate the register certificate is whereby now the court certifies that all parties have come on board they have filed all the documents they wish so to rely on and now we can hear this divorce the petition so it doesn't matter whether the other party that has been named as file or not they must be issued because in Kenya the divorce whoever wishes a marriage to be dissolved on the basis of the grounds of those divorce as to convince court that indeed these these things are there if you claim there was a one party was adulterous you have to prove the other party was cruel and if you can't prove does that mean they can just dismiss your case and say you stay married of course if you don't prove then you have not established the grounds for interesting when the other party now comes and say you see this has never happened and there's nothing because you see in law there's something called conniving condoning and engaging allowing the other party to to also do like if today you are beaten and just keep quiet then later you come and tell court no you see I was beaten in the year 2009 now I want a divorce what did you do at that time so you have also to prove your ground yes that will be interesting imagine you're going to court and filing for divorce the court dismisses it and says you stay married because I wonder how you would deal with each other after but now let's understand what leads to divorce because Jenny you mentioned one of the things was you talked about the red flags and also the fact that you could not even resolve conflict in healthy manners so I want to understand what are other things that cost this divorce what made it's very inevitable for you to say enough is enough I can't do this anymore I have to walk away many things that but you come to realize them while you are in marriage that you didn't see before or rather you see we say love gets to blind you so you don't even get to see red legs so when you are inside that's when they come out so clear or rather the other party it's easy for them to pretend during courtship but now when you are in marriage their time comes they can no longer pretend they have to be to remove the mask and be themselves so something else I can point out you see there's a reason why you get into marriage and perhaps the reason that took you or me in person into marriage with time I found is not the same way that we are pursuing you see the way you begin and you feel you have you are going the same direction you have the same goals that you want to achieve in life but getting there once now you the other person cannot pretend anymore they have to be themselves so you find these these how do I call it like you are not now even reasoning the same way you know everyone is going their own direction so you cannot even sit and agree on just simple and common things you know what we do about this how do we do we buy this property where do we take our children to school so you find like you are in the same house but everybody is doing their own things you cannot sit and agree on one something else I think with time is just being we call it self-centered you get to a point you do not want to change who you are to accommodate to accommodate the other person so you want to remain that person you know so everybody thinks their own way for me this is who I am if you cannot embrace or cope with me the way I am it's okay you can leave or you can just find your way out so can you imagine living with someone and this is something even you did not see at the beginning or it was not clear you didn't even agree on but you come and find I may give an example perhaps you come and find oh somebody is a drunkard you know at least something that you did not see before and for you that's not a part of your values you know so it becomes too hard to continue with that you know so basically these are the what I can point out and also not wanting to put some work on you you know because we know and is perfect and with time just realizing you need to work on you improve and on you do self-development but you do not want you want just the way you are that that is you and you do not want to work even towards the marriage because marriage is work you know you will not just assume that you are there and you want it to to be okay or things to run in the right way you have to put in some work and everybody has to put in some work so and most of the time you find when now it starts the marriage starts dying it becomes one sided you know you you are the only one who is working towards the marriage you are the one who is trying to you know to salvage it but the other person as I said they they are not there they left long ago they just come to report the way you come report eat sleep when you are actually not there so it becomes so overwhelming to the other person because you cannot really work on a marriage as a you know an individual you need to put the effort of them of the two people here and it's interesting what you've said because so many people have this phrase me me me too I'm just like this so you take it or leave it and especially in a marriage you have to be willing to compromise and if your partner brings up something and it's not something like it's physical in your DNA that you physically cannot change if it's a character then you can just make the effort to do the work for your partner so it's interesting when you hear a husband telling you I'm just like this or a wife saying the same because if you want to work together and if you want to get better then you have to compromise on some things and that is very interesting that you've pointed out because in time you start feeling the energy and you start dissociating because you no longer want to give where someone is just taking and not feeding you the same way so I want to understand first as you can add one more thing as he comes in which is also very important definitely and this I think happens mostly with women as you get into marriage for the sake of making the marriage work you lose your authenticity you go and you get swallowed you know or you just start living under the other person so that person who you were initially your potential your purpose everything you you lose it in marriage and you get because you do not perhaps I am vocal I you know I have you know I've been expressing myself but getting there because you don't want to bring issue or bring something up that will cause you guys to disagree you slowly go and losing your voice before you realize you have no voice you cannot say anything that you like or you dislike and with time we say once you lose your authenticity then you are dead as a person yes you've lost yourself and there's nothing bad as losing yourself we say you'd rather then lose the marriage other than losing you true yeah that's very true and it's interesting that you've brought that up because we had a conversation last week and one of our guests Belinda Odiambo she said the exact same thing because we're talking about women and how we act in relationships and some of us lose ourselves in relationships and it's all about my husband my children my in-laws and what not so sometimes you put your careers on the back burner and yourself in the back burner and that is one very dangerous thing so if you're watching at home and you have lost yourself in your relationship whatever it is you need to find yourself do not lose yourself to be with whoever and you want to maintain a marriage or a relationship so I wanted to find out she mentioned something lack of understanding why you cannot agree on how do we solve this what school do we take our children to how can you prove that in court because you've said you have to give you have to write the reason how do you prove my husband does not talk to me about this we cannot agree how there's something called the marriage has been broken irretrievable simply put that you really can't just understand each other you really can't come to an agreement for anything in that marriage and therefore it becomes difficult for you people to progress on with the marriage proving that it depends on circumstances it can now you see for example if I stay in Kileleswa another person stays in Karen and we are married last we talked was one year ago we can't even discuss an issue of a child kid that we brought for you just take a screenshot and add it to the file it really doesn't necessitate that but you see as I told you there is the process of divorce each and every person who wants a divorce to be or a marriage to be nullified must be brought to now give evidence now you can give oral evidence as to what has been happening in your marriage okay and out now yeah and that will be taken as evidence and that makes some some of the things easier because yes there are things that you can prove something like abuse you can prove abuse you will realize that marriage is so when there is a divorce proceeding sometimes it becomes messy in our legal process you will find it is kind of protected even if you go and look at the coast list names might not be mentioned they might use just the initials to describe parties so sometimes a party might feel not willing to give out documents confirming what has been happening in their marriage and therefore they don't file those documents they would wish to go and give oral evidence and in such evidence like right now in Kenya we are having these online court sessions so you will find if it is an online hearing the magistrate will actually disconnect other people and only the parties involved in that proceeding so that it is already protected within the rights of each and every party that's nice because again anything that's submitted becomes public exactly property so then that's a very nice way to preserve the integrity and their peace that this to already because you're dealing with a divorce that already on its own is stressful so when you imagine that your in laws can access your information and learn exactly what has been going on that might lead people to want to retain some information so that presents a good alternative because if you can give oral evidence and it's listened to and taken into account then you can have some hope so I also want to understand you mentioned being married for 12 years before you got to the point of divorce did you make any effort aside from just between the two of you did you involve your family a therapist perhaps did you involve any other third party to try and solve the issue yes even as to if I may mention before we finally divorced we had you know separated like for Rania six months then come back together that's for three times three times before we finally called it quits and in all this time we tried you know like involving our parents elders involving church elders tried counseling but with all this it did not work and there's something through the overtime that I've come to learn sometimes you stay in a marriage it's perhaps it's abusive it's toxic and for that moment you even you are not even you can even be productive you lost yourself totally but perhaps you are staying in the name you know well because of the societal expectations you know because of the parents I don't know friends because of other people you don't want to perhaps you know you don't want to to carry shame because of what will happen so you you say you are unable so they blame it on you so you find let me tell you before you see somebody walking out is not that they just walk up and walked out is something they have really tried many times and to the point that it get you get and you say now this one you know it's for sure you have tried your best and we normally say that is better other than staying in a place where you totally lost yourself you are also even for your own sake and the other person because now you know you are not even being fair to yourself and the other person because in that space you are not even in talking terms you can't even agree on anything you are you are just living like strangers by the end in anything you've even become toxic to each other anything can happen because now the insults abuse you know and all that emotional abuse that now you cannot count on you cannot show people that have been emotionally abused you know that happens a lot you know so and because there is no trophy in enjoying in marriage you'd rather be safe and be okay out there you know and the other person the same way other than be together and now in the where even their children it becomes even really bad because now you the children gets to they get to be affected by what they see and also what they hear and they also it brings me to the next point I wanted to ask you did you have children from this marriage yes what was the impact because I know for kids they're very impacted by seeing their parents divorcing and separating so what was the impact that you saw immediately with your children was it emotional or even in school and their behavior what are the the effects of the divorce on them the children were totally affected deeply deeply affected because they loved both of their parents their mom and their father but now they gotten to a point where they are meant to choose which now becomes so difficult for them and I remember in this time when we have we had even our children's matter in court and the matter custody and the children I expected to choose who to stay with and I remember even at younger age right now they are older 22 and 13 by that time I think the hangar was around six where they went to the magistrate's chamber to you know so that they can be they can be interviewed yes at that age they went to the magistrate's chamber it was that bad they had to be you know to make a decision who will they stay with you can imagine subjecting that to them and this is where I say is where parents will become so selfish we do not care about what we are doing to the children because at that time okay for us we are adults but we are using the children to fight this to fight this but who is you know but not knowing the effect that it has on children because I know my children they had they got affected in school their performance they are even how they behaved in school a lot they you could see a lot even their self-esteem they totally got affected even to a point ahead even to take them to see a counselor because it was not easy for them to go through that process at some point I remember when you are coming from from the court and we were with them and they now now we are done the father is going and I'm going and you see they are divided they wonder who to go with and they cried they cried they cried you know you can imagine what that made to them so having gone through that you know getting to this point I think I tell parents this is where you need to separate your issues deal with your issues you as adults and let the kids leave them out of it and also work with them you know in a different way since also they are going through is not not only you who is going through the pain of separation or divorce also the children at their own level they are going through that so if you do not help them at that point it will catch up with them when they are adults and they'll be seeking for help when it's too late and some may not even seek for help because I think the children are affected in ways that are deeper than parents because sometimes they don't have the understanding of what is going on and they're used to this traditional form of family and now they have to be accustomed to mom stays here dad stays in the other place and we have to share our time so I want to to see from the point of view of the law she's just talked about having some of the custody hearings of who gets the children what what point at what point do you get that or is it automatic that once you file for divorce and you have children you have to have the custody sharing hearings I think it is let me not call it automatic but once you people want to live apart and you add kids you must decide how these kids are are going to be nowadays you find we also have to give upload to the drafters of our constitution because they brought in other aspects you will find before the custody of these children and their maintenance were only captured for under the divorce proceedings each party you see these are parties already contesting how they want to move on with their life but now we have our children's court and we have a children's that gives prominence to the welfare and well-being of a child in any case there is a child involved whether it is the mother was approached the court or it is the father actually the court just give prominence to these children how are they going to be catered for care and is that is that partly why they were interviewed I'm coming to that so you will find in giving their well-being of a child there are so many things this court needs to look at it's not just who to live for and for clear the air the court does not ask in those interviews because if she can confirm to you they were never allowed in those interviews it is the court and the children they are never told that you have to decide whom you are going to be with what the cause is trying to establish is their life every child will feel more comfortable being with this person or being as much as they were living together so the court just tries to establish who is best placed to be with this child at this particular time that does not deny the other party the right there is orders for custody and there are orders for maintenance like if we are separating today or we are divorcing today and my child is used to this kind of lifestyle the mother might not be able she is the mother she is comfortable or well-placed to take care of the minor but now is she in a position to provide the welfare that this child has been accustomed to all this while if the mother is not in that position that does not deny at the right to be with this child the father will have to come in to maintain that lifestyle and that is what we call maintainers now now now that is now for the children not their own issues of we are divorcing this is now just pertaining to the child so once the court has established the issues surrounding this child and what needs to be taken care of like the school fees the clothing the food and shelter the basic needs of a child plus education is given prominence health is given prominence and other basic rights so these parents must share it's not just that I'm not having jobs I'm not going you have also it is called shared parental responsibility you must also come in to give something so the court conducts these interviews just to confirm from the children that would really would be your wish they also have to give in their wishes then the court will now sit down because they will listen to the whoever came for that custody they will listen to the other party then it will now come to an informed decision and that's very interesting because they prioritize the welfare of the children because ultimately these are the parties that are most affected but they were not involved in the conflict at all so I also want to to find out does the court also recommend therapy for for the couples before you get to the final decision maybe you can tell us briefly because time kiddo go is much on our side but is there any talk before you separate finally and divorce our constitution allows and article 159 so but equal to see it allows alternative dispute resolutions and I think what you are asking me is whether people can talk before they finally get to court yeah it is it is there but now that will depend with the parties a court can only recommend to you see once you have come to court court can as well tell you that you see instead if you took will not agree we can proceed to court annexed mediation we give you somebody knows not so much of the legal process as we do it but this is now a place where you just come in as parties one is just there to listen to both of you guide you through but you are talking to each other and see if you can solve whatever differences you have so they can recommend trying to get it because I think I've seen that in a film which may not be enough to inform this but I've seen that some people were advised to talk to a third party a mediator was brought in in our system they are there it is operational and it is it's really helping it also helps in the backlog of the court cases we have so it's something that is really helping as to child therapy I think it is also it is recommended as well I have seen a judgment where magistrate has once given and I undertook that process once given a judgment that the children undergo therapy but now you see these are extreme they have other ramifications to the child so if the parties apart from your differences you also in a children's court you are always asked to look at the interest of the child not your own interest if you have your own interest go to the divorce separate or divorce as you want then you can share whatever matrimonial property you want but now as you share them remember you have children and that is what the court really looks at in a children's court nice and I wanted to make a joke now because you've talked about sharing property and there are people who think that you can marry someone who's wealthy in divorce in two years and get the money you've had if you're not married for at least three years there's no way that's going to happen so that those the details that you have to be aware of and I wanted to discuss coping with divorce because now you're here you're present you've gotten to the process you have family you have church members you have in laws than the children themselves how do you deal with all that because that's how I'm when you're stressed and you're dealing with all these other people how can you cope with that entire process first of all divorce is a loss and even we describe it it's it's more than it's painful more than death because it has no closure you see for death you bury and you know the person is gone this one has no closure you love to get to meet the person hear about the person and all the time is not that you your meeting you get to hear them presenting themselves very well perhaps in a way to agitate you or just to you know to make you angry you can imagine so getting to these two are closures not easy so going through divorce since it's a loss you know you need to really take your time and and grieve over that loss because this is where and I've had this question before when people asking perhaps you're in a very abusive marriage you know he let for sure you're being beaten you come out with a max and all that but once you are out other than now feeling a relief you know okay at long last you know good readers you start now another journey a painful process of now letting go since it's a loss it's grieve you need to go through the process of that loss so this is where you actually need to take time off I know many people do a mistake you think the fastest to heal is by jumping it to another relationship that's the big biggest mistake that has happened that we have seen so take time off and get to heal yourself get to revisit you know the marriage what happened cause we normally say it takes two to tango there's no way you'll keep on pointing fingers he did or she did there's what you did also it takes this your contribution to the failure of that marriage so take time to do this because some other things even if they're not even our known to you ourselves perhaps they are due to childhood trauma due to underserved issues in your life but you haven't you didn't really get to live your life well in in marriage so you need to take time often see a counselor get to get avenues where you can process these where you can heal because it's not easy it can even take many years as you go through this process these were many people they even sink into depression they get into addictive behaviors trying to cope with this because it's not easy so is a time this time you really need support support of the of your family and we've had scenarios because even as you mentioned where even you get your family rejects you you know we don't shame we send you off through a big wedding kindly that shame so we are not associated with you anymore friends go you know again the in-laws perhaps you are very close to to you they are not talking to you anymore the church used to go now they are not really they're looking at you with that eye you know you didn't do well in your marriage so you wonder you just live a lonely life everybody seems to to run away from you so it's a very is a space that is very very lonely painful that you actually need a lot of grace a lot of strength to pull through that because you it's a place where you can easily break yes and lose yourself yeah and you you do counseling for for divorce specifically and your organization as well sad ref yeah does that deal with divorce do you help people who've dealt with it and how we're going through it and how to overcome some of the issues do you do that through the organization yes we have programs we call them healing programs the once you were out of your marriage what we normally say we don't really care you know who did what but we want to support you through the process of healing so that you can pick yourself up and get because at that point you lose your sanity you lose yourself to a total we try to help you stabilize emotionally by taking you through programs to understand what is that that happened or rather just to unpack because that's what you need and pack everything the whole thing it's painful but what we say for you to come out better you'll go through the painful process of unpacking of what happened because you need to process you cannot just bury it under the carpet and say you know if behind me no you have to unpack it you have to process so that you get to a point that you feel better so we have healing programs we have divorce care programs where even we have support groups we are now we they come together just to support each other share their journeys and also just drives our strength and encouragement from each other that's very very nice and the facts that you provide support for this individuals is also helpful because you've highlighted the value of having a strong group of people who are supportive around you now I'm curious through the organization and through the different classes have you ever encountered people who are regretful of their decision and they want to go back because what you've just explained is someone wondering where did I go wrong how did I get here what can I fix what could I have done different so have you gotten people who decided I need to go back to my marriage and I need to go back to my home or things like that okay during the journey healing journey we normally say we have three exits as you come now to healing one of the exits there are people who will be they'll have through the process they have realized their mistake perhaps they didn't give it time perhaps they overreacted so we've had people going back to their marriage we've had people reconciling with their spouses that is one second we've gotten to a place we call it camp civility where now you have got a place you have accepted it cannot work between me and my my ex-husband and to a point of forgiving them that you even do not feel anything really pain about them you actually forgive them and then you start the journey of co-parenting in a healthy way that even you see it you discuss about the children how you take them to school even at times during the parents meeting you will go together yes you are not together but now you just make a decision that we need to get to a place of camp being civil you know and just relating in a good way for the sake of the children and remember now at this time we are you know our separate ways then getting the third option and that points there could be either who they have made a decision I'm okay as a single person let me just do what it takes just to remain as I am the third exit we've had and a number of them many who now get the space of remarriage they married a second time yes after now realizing okay now that one cannot work but I don't have the grace to really live as a single person so there's the other option now they get to remarriage that's interesting so can you highlight for us what does sadref mean in full and where could we find you because I'm pretty sure there's someone who's watching us who's very interested in finding your organization okay sadref in full means separation and divorce recovery forum yes in based in Africa and what we do we train we equip and support people who are going through toxic marriages difficult relationships separation and divorce and with an objective helping them to pick themselves up again we say them being whole again so it's not the aspect of what you did what you did just having you as we deal with an individual it doesn't matter what mistake you did but we want to have you whole as a person experience so under that we have different programs that we do because now there are other things that come with that and one as he has said the legal aspect of it so we partner with the legal firms just to make sure we support the other I feel like maybe we can find your website because time is okay we have our website where you can check www.sadref.com and we also we are on social media handles Facebook Sadref Africa and also YouTube Sadref Africa and also genuine shira there's a lot that we have done you can check you can reach to us there we have contacts numbers there email address you can always talk to us and we will be able to support you thank you thank you that was very clear and I hope you've gotten some idea of where you can find her and the organization you've taken note of that so maybe in conclusion I can we can hear from the man of the law you can just tell us what what goes into co-parenting because you mentioned a few things about with the children prominence of the children and their welfare you mentioned the there was the experience was it the experience I'm sorry you mentioned two things about the children that you really prioritize the person who's going to maintain their lifestyle and the person who's going to be there who they feel is attached to them so clarify on that because as of you may put a quackily I'm sure there's someone else at home who's also missed that so that and also clarifying on the co-parenting what the law says about co-parenting and the guidelines that are said maybe for someone who's watching and who's undergoing that and they're having issues with their ex-husband or wife because I've had so many cases of that when it comes to the children we have that is now what we call custody we have the legal custody and the actual custody the legal custody so long as you it is proved that you are a biological father or father you will the court cannot deny your legal custody you have a right to the legal custody then there's the aspect that people move to court now to fight for that is the actual custody will be who is going to stay with these children what are we going to do so this is where now if it is so much protracted war between the two parties the court we love to factor in the wishes of the child that is when now the child interview is done they get to factor in what is the feeling of this child which party does he feel safe to be with or things of the but that as well even if you are given the actual custody the other party is going to be given access to the child this is now what we call the co-parenting you will find the mother is with the children or lives with the children so automatically we love to be with the children from Monday to Friday during school going school going days then over the weekend it is the father so they will have to co-parent and in the issue of co-parenting if they can't agree the court will spell it out but mostly you will find the they always agree as to as long as they have been they have decided or maybe the court has directed them through their counsels or whichever even if they are appearing alone they will have decided that if these children are coming to your place there's no need of carrying clothes so you will buy clothes as I buy them when they are home so they have their own their own belongings each and in every house because all these are their houses and let's say one of the parents does not agree we've had so many stories of deadbeat fathers and whether they neglect the children and they do not pay fees and bills cases like that how do you deal with that that is why the children's court is there you will find the party that is feeling this weight of taking care of the children alone can move the court and the court will give specific orders this where they will be ordered to maintain the other party so long as you you can guide court to tell court they are those that are employed their salaries can be attached they are those even if they are not employed but you know because this is somebody you had been with you know he has a source of livelihood and the court can order that per month this is the amount to be paid what the court does not compromise on is education shelter food and health that the court will not see the basic needs the court will not compromise on both parties we love to you have to provide it because you're the parents of this thank you for that so maybe because time is in Asia you can just give us a parting shot tell us from the the perspective of a legal head and the legal figure what can you advise someone who's going through divorce who's thinking about divorce who has already divorced but they're having some issues with their ex-partner you know as as advocates we are also counselors and one thing I can say is before you undertake the legal process of divorce always have a moment with yourself think through it and get to know the lawyers will guide you to achieve whatever you want to achieve but it is your own decision to make so before you come to that decision that this is what I want before you make that step be sure within you that this is really what I want the law can only guide you and can help you achieve whatever you want thank you for that maybe contact detail or where we can find you in case we need advice okay I practice with the e-money area advocates as an associate advocate there we are based at commerce house moving fourth-floor room 42 thank you so you've heard where he's at his name is the fastest numb an advocate of the high court thank you so much for the wealth of information Jenny you can give us your parting short where we can find you because you've told us some of the other details just briefly tell us your parting short to someone who's going through divorce who has children involved and they're having issues and they even dealing with their own stress how do they get through it and summarize it by saying broken crayons still color it does not matter what broke you or at what point you are at you can still pick up your pieces and live your life again and what I normally say it's your it's your it's your own responsibility to seek healing yeah thank you that is very well said I appreciate that thank you for watching as well I'm going to read some of your names briefly because we can't pull that up today unfortunately Willy Bazoo count me in thank you for watching Kadan cherry denoji oil Willy Bazoo again Mishi my nanae Vincent Ogembo Manu Kimba Westlands Nairobi Vincent Wambua Vincent Ogembo Derek Walter Wakagundi and so many other people who have Derek Rackama, Celisio Murruki thank you so much all of you who've taken your time to watch us tonight who've written us any comments come over to Lisa Swally I'm really sorry that we've been unable to answer you today but we will do so next week thank you again for watching Y245 TV thank you for the amazing team that has been here with us the operators my producer Timur he is the best and we appreciate it that has been it for today my name is Sheryl blessing this is the power talk show