 One of the big problems, I think, that brands make when they're working with an influencer is not sharing what their objectives are. Welcome to the Smarter Building Materials Marketing Podcast, helping you find better ways to grow leads, sales, and outperform your competition. All right, everybody, welcome to Smarter Building Materials Marketing, where we believe your online presence should be your best salesperson. I am Zach Williams, alongside my co-host, Beth Popniklomf, and today we're talking about influencer marketing. And what I love about today's show, where we're going to dive, is we're going to specifically talk about B2B influencer marketing. One thing we were talking about before we started recording was, you hear about influencer marketing, you're like, oh, well, that works really great with like D2C brands, or like maybe in this one category within building products. But we're starting to see this rise of influencer marketing across almost every single category in building products. And we want to dissect for you and dig into that, and we've got a great guest on the show with us today as well, who's going to talk about their experience in that space. We are really excited to welcome Jennifer Flores. She is a blogger and influencer in the B2B and building material space. She's got a ton of experience of working with name brands in the building material space, and also is a founder of blog podium, which is an incredible conference that brings together bloggers and influencers and building materials companies and brands that want to work together and helps them get matched up and create exciting partnerships. Jennifer, we have an absolute slew of questions for you. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you. I'm excited to be here. So before we dive in, Jennifer, why don't do you mind giving our audience just a bird's eye view of who you are and what your career in influencer and blogging partnerships have been like? Sure. So I am a blogger. I started my blog Rambling Renovators way back in 2007, documenting our home purchase, our DIYs and renovations. And I was able to work with a lot of brands early in the space. But I learned that I needed a bit more education about what it means to be a content creator and an influencer. So I created blog podium, which was Canada's Conference for Design and Lifestyle Influencers. Ran that from 2011 to 2018, brought it across Canada, and brought a lot of the brands into the space, into their initial forays into influencer marketing and working with creators that morphed into Storyhouse, which was an online hub for creatives. And now I continue to do content creation and social media consulting for smaller brands. So that's really exciting and excellent. I mean, background. That's like, I don't know. We're working coming close to 20 years. Who's counting? It's fine. We are. So Jennifer, Zach teased us, teed us up perfectly for this question. And let's just, let's just dive in to the meat of it, which is, so we obviously talk to manufacturers on a regular basis about the importance of influencer partnerships, but there's some pretty standard objections, which are reasonable and understandable. Namely, it's, well, is this really going to be relevant? Is this really going to make an impact because I target the pro? So let's just dive in and talk about how B2B brands and specifically manufacturers who want to target pros could potentially leverage influencer marketing. Sure. So you alluded to my long history in the space. And one of the things that has changed more recently, that's saying that everybody is an influencer. And that is never more so true than it is today. So you'll see professional content creators on there. You'll see DIYers, homeowners, but you'll also see architects, designers, pros, contractors who have their own audience and are influencing those people that follow along with them. So really, there is an influencer for every brand out there, I think. There's it's just a matter of finding the person who speaks to the audience that you want to connect to and really has already established that trust and that expertise in the space. So if I take a step back here, Jennifer, one of the things that we hear and we have to talk about often with our clients and other manufacturers is yet. Yes, there's a place for influencer marketing, but, and you say, I should be partnering with them. What are some of the outcomes that you see people should be aiming to achieve is really the goal is like, okay, I know influencer marketing can do a lot of different things, but what is the outcome that I should be aiming for, especially if I'm not a D2C brand? For example, if I can't measure me working with, let's say an influencer to measure actual actual sales, what is a way that you measure and you encourage people to measure the effectiveness of a given influencer as it relates to their brand? So I think what influencers really do is help humanize your brand. And it's compared to other traditional forms of marketing. You don't get, you get the best return using influencers. They create social engagement on your channels for you. They create conversation. And I think they really bring out the aspects and help consumers draw that line between what is that product and how can I apply it in the situation? So I could be talking about a homeowner who's looking at a building materials product and wants to implement in their home, but there's also a conversation that happens with homeowners and their contractors. So now you have to influence that layer and how do you do that? There's, you can initiate the conversation at so many levels and get lots of people talking about your project, so your product. So even if you are a B2B brand, you want to initiate conversations at that consumer level as well. And influencer marketing helps do that. It helps it throughout the entire chain. You can talk to people who are professional contractors to other businesses who could use your product to retailers, to consumers. It's not just a single conversation to that end consumer. There's lots of means to get that conversation going. Can you give me an example of a manufacturer or somebody in our space? And you'll have to name them by name. But what are some of the ways that you're saying, OK, we're going to drive traffic here or we're going to try to get people to get a sample. We're going to try to get them in store. What are some of the things that you see that are working when it comes to influencers working specifically with manufacturers? So I'll give you a great example, Metrie, which is one of North America's largest manufacturers of molding products. They were an early sponsor of my conference. And so they were meeting very early on with micro influencers and macro influencers. So, you know, influencers had audiences of very small sizes or larger, larger audiences. They took it upon themselves to say, well, really, OK, reach is not the biggest objective of ours here. We kind of want to look at the content. So they started providing materials for for different projects, sponsoring blog posts, initiating conversations with influencers to create content. And what that really did is took a product which was molding. And you can see in building stores, but maybe you hadn't given it given it a long thought and said, wow, there's actually a design component. This influencer used it in their home. Now I can see how it reflects my style. So really, I think they did a great job of opening up that product and showing how it could be used with different budgets, with different house styles, different designs. And even if you weren't a DIYer, there were people who were following along on influencer influencer projects saying, how can I get my contractor to use this product, because I know the name Mentri now. And I want to have that look that I've seen online and Instagram. So I think they were a great example of early on recognizing the potential of working with influencers and really kind of giving them free reign to use their own personalities and create innovation with that product. So, you know, they've written that wave through a shiplap and use of that in homes to now traditional panel molding. And it really evolves with the styles and the way that people can use it in their home. Now we have so many more ideas and inspiration. So Jennifer, you said a keyword, which is content. And that's that. I mean, that's like a huge conversation for manufacturers. And I think when it comes to influencers, can you talk to us a bit about how if I'm a manufacturer, if I'm a manufacturer investing in influencer partnerships, what should I be expecting or asking for from a content perspective to get the greatest impact? So I'm really glad you asked this because a lot of one of the big problems I think that brands make when they're working with an influencer is not sharing what their objectives are. So if you do want content that you could possibly reuse on your website or in a seasonal catalog, you need to share that information up front. A lot of the brands that I've worked with, it's been much more qualitative and transactional. So we want one blog post, two Instagram posts, the real and Pinterest pins. If you share the more the more information you share, I think the better content, better output you get with these kinds of collaborations, right? So I think it all starts with that manufacturer deciding what's our gap here? What do we want influencer marketing to do with us? If it is increasing brand awareness, then the content produce is going to be something entirely different from we need content for our seasonal catalog that we can reuse these photos that this video content we share on our social media. So really having that those clear objectives at the beginning will get you better content at the end. I went to this conference last week where it was a home improvement conference. It was a home improvement modeling Institute here. And we went out to dinner with a couple of manufacturers after the after the event. And I was really fortunate to be able to sit with a bunch of different manufacturers from different tool companies. And it was neat listening to them talk because they all kind of geeked out for a moment about their favorite influencers on YouTube. And what was cool for me is like they're even though like they are the brand, if you will, they're like, Oh, I like this person. I like that person. But the thing that stood out to me was that the people that they liked the most were the ones that were not only educational about the content, but did stuff that was wild. So for example, like just funny or crazy, like give us an example of a guy who he had a tool, maybe like released a tool that would work like underwater. And so this guy was like trying to like rise from the depths of like a swamp and like trying to do all these like crazy things to showcase that this product actually worked really well. So trying to create like a funny story about it. And they worked with this individual and obviously it was very funny and successful. But I'm bringing this up to say, you know, in working with manufacturers and getting a bird, you know, a pretty close view, Jennifer, of what a successful campaign looks like. Are there things that you try to push people to do? Like insert personality or be funny or do something different that's engaging because I think it's hard often times for manufacturers to embrace that because they're like, Hey, there's so much we want you to make sure you cover about our product and all the features. And oftentimes people don't remember that you remember that really funny hook or that really funny thing that someone did. And that's what gets people to go, OK, let me research more. So are there like a couple examples or a couple, let's say, to-dos that you always try to encourage people to implement with a strategy when it comes to creating that content? Yeah, absolutely. So first thing I think you started off talking about people who shared their own personal experience on social media and who they follow. I think we have to remember, even if you are representing your brand, the way you engage with social is an individual. So what makes you laugh? What entertains you, right? And that's the kind of content you want to create. We are so inundated with content these days. It can't just be, you know, it's got to be something that captures our attention first of all, but it's also got to have personality. And the key with the influencer, working with an influencer is you've actually hired that person because they have that built-in trust already with the customer. They've got a voice, they've got an established style, an aesthetic, a way they view the world that is compelling. So the more that you try and control that message or edit that message as a brand. And I've had many partners try and do this from, you know, editing my blog post content to ask me to reshoot photos. It really starts to distort or dissolve that relationship that they have with the end customer. So I think if you're going to engage with an influencer, you have to kind of give them free reign, have a little bit of trust that they know what they're doing. That's why you've hired them in the first place, because you found their content compelling and you know their audience loves it. So trust that they will find the way to convey the beautiful aspects of your product and all of those those characteristics that you think are important in a way that their audience wants to receive it. Because I think the more that we try and morph that to a corporate message, it doesn't engage anybody by the end of it. We just it doesn't resonate with any of us. And we feel that you can see it online when you can see it's a brand message. You can see when you feel kind of like, oh, that influencer has sold out a little bit because that fit wasn't quite right. So just trust that they know what they're doing, I think, and create something creative together, be open to ideas, collaborate a bit more. I love that so much because I think that's, you know, probably the single most important thing a manufacturer can do is is allow the influencer to do what they know their audience is going to want. Like we were talking about this, Beth, Lizzo. Lizzo launched a campaign recently, not with the building product company, but with Instacart. And I read this quick case study about how they completely bombed in this this influencer campaign because they have like Lizzo in her bath, like ordering groceries and everyone's like, um, like, yeah, but like Lizzo is not ordering groceries. Like Lizzo Lizzo is getting somebody else to order her groceries for her. And Jennifer, you were saying this before, before we start recording, was like, it'd be smarter for Instacart to just go to like Lizzo's assistant. And be like, Hey, I love working with Lizzo and so I've got to use Instacart. And like that would have been probably more genuine because the whole thing was like her audience doesn't really care about Instacart because she doesn't really care about it outside of the fact that they paid her a bunch of money. It's not, it doesn't overlap. And it's not something that she came with her own. It was too forced. It was too corporate to on brand for the brand, if you will. And I think that's a really important point. Like Beth, we've had, we've had, um, uh, Ben Uita on the show before. And he does, I don't know if you're familiar with him, Jennifer, but he does a bunch of stuff with quick creed. And it's like always building stuff for Home Depot and quick creed. And he like builds off the wall, crazy, concrete contraptions with Legos. And you're like, okay, but like these videos get like millions of views on YouTube because it's very genuine to who he is. And he knows his audience is going to like it. And it ultimately results in sales for quick creed. Right. And that's what this audience, this generation demands today. They demand authenticity. Anything that seems like, oh, you're, you're not really using that product. That's not something that's authentic to you. They just kind of turn away. They'll just quickly, you know, move on to the next video. Jennifer, I think you used a word that's maybe helps frame exactly what we're talking about, which is you said like corporate messaging. And you say that and like my whole body just goes, huh, like I just cringe immediately. But I think often the term that gets put out there is like, well, this is our brand message. We need to make sure that our brand message gets pushed across. We're like, well, but what your brand needs to be pushing is what your customers are asking for and what you're wanting to push in these extreme situations, right? We're not saying we and you and everybody, but what you're asking to push, if you're sterilizing down, what, if you're asking, you know, and editing out, you're actually getting to your corporate message. And that's where you lose it. That's where you lose the magic of influencers. Frankly, it's where you lose the magic of marketing in general is if you're so afraid about not having the TMS and the trademarks and all of those things buttoned up and it just, you remove the human, the human aspect and that's when people move on. And I think the important part there is that's when pros move on too. We need to remember that Gen Z millennials, like those are the people in, even in the workforce right now, it's not all just Gen X and baby boomers that we're trying to target. Millennials are the vast majority of workforce and growing. Gen Z is, I still think that they're 12, but they're not. I need to let them grow up too. Like they're coming into the workforce. They're coming into these purchase decision demographics and we've got to be able to meet them where they are, or they're going to develop their own brand that will meet them where they are. And that will trump the people that have been there for decades and decades. Yeah. And it's an evolution too. Right. So Gen Z and the millennials, they're going to start off as living at their parents' basement. They're, you know, going to rent their first place. They're not going to, I'm sorry, I'm laughing. I've got like, I've got kids and I'm like, laughing, thinking about like what my life is going to be like, if my kids are in my basement, like now my kids, my kids are moving out. But Jennifer, can you speak to how Gen Z is researching? I think you make, I've heard you make this point before, but how they research and find products is very different than older generations. Absolutely. So they're not like us. They're not going on to Google and looking for reviews. They're heading to TikTok. They're, some are heading to Instagram. They're not even looking at Facebook, but the first and foremost for them is they need to be entertained. So their information is not coming through very like pragmatically the way we see it is, tell me the aspects, tell me the benefits of this product. They wanted their information related to them in an entertaining form with personality, something that already speaks to them, you know, in a way that they're used to. So TikTok is all about casual conversation. Nothing's really scripted. It's not overly produced. If you as a brand or a manufacturer come in with a message that is sort of what you would put on a YouTube video as a promotional video, it's not going to resonate, right? So you've got to think about the customer first. And I think, you know, the question of where do you start with influencer marketing? You don't start with the influencer. You start with your customer. Who's that in person that you want to reach? Is it a homeowner, a DIYer? Is it architects? Is it designers? What's the, if that's a person you want to reach, what platforms are they on? How are they receiving information? What kind of conversations are they having? So that'll inform the kind of content you're going to create and the influencer you want to work with. Right? Because first of all, you want to work with somebody that's native on the platform. If you're going to do a TikTok campaign, work with someone who has that expertise on that platform versus somebody who's a YouTube creator or an Instagram, you know, somebody in Instagram Reels who has really developed their expertise there, know your customer first, then pick the influencer to fit. What's your take of YouTube shorts? I'm curious, like, you know, obviously YouTube and Instagram are trying to be like TikTok. I think, and Mark Zuckerberg's last address to his shareholders, he mentioned TikTok more than Instagram. Like he used their name, I think more. Don't quote me on that. But he mentioned them a bunch because it's so addictive, you know, and it's what social media has grown the most. Do you, do you see Instagram Reels and or YouTube Reels playing a bigger role over the next year or two? Or, or, you know, let's say the future when it comes to influencer marketing. Yeah, I think actually the brands of the platforms have done themselves a huge disservice trying to be like TikTok. So you mentioned Instagram, YouTube. There's also Jennifer. That was just yeah, don't try and be like TikTok, be what you are Pinterest. That was another huge one that has introduced videos on there. It's called Pinterest ideas, pins. It doesn't work. Firstly, because of the people who create content for those platforms, I've developed an expertise to create static photos for Instagram and I know really well how to position a photograph and what kind of copy to put with it. Instagram Reels is not my forte, but you're forcing me to create something and find a new audience with that content. So it's they're kind of forcing everybody to scratch. Can I play devil's advocate with that? So if I'm Pinterest, if I'm Instagram, if I'm YouTube and I see my, my viewer base or my user base is leaving, we're not spending as much time as they once did and they've got data that says, hey, people are spending four hours a day on TikTok. Is there not a place for them to experiment? Beth is laughing because like that's probably true at some point. Like is there a place for them to experiment? Oh, it's probably a legit assessment. Like is not a place for experimentation there to go like, OK, will our audience respond to this because I saw like Instagram early, you know, a couple of months ago got some huge backlash from the Kardashians, right? Because they're like, make Instagram, Instagram, which is like overly well produced photos or, you know, whatever whatever reason that they wanted to keep it the way it was. Again, I'm talking outside my depth here when it comes to Kardashians. But what I'm really after here is is there not a place for them for them to see what's working and to try to lean into that a little bit? Yeah, what I find that the platforms are doing, though, is they're using the fact that TikTok is so successful, saying that we have to jump into that. What they're not recognizing is it turns off the people that are on your platform and liked the old kind of content. So a lot of the uproar and I was part of it. I'm like, keep Instagram, you know, as photos. A lot of it, Instagram is a heavily photo based platform. That's why designers are there. That's why dear wires, that's what you come for. When you fill the feed with reels, nobody wants to be there. I don't want to create content because now I have to learn something new. And the person that was following me for the pretty photos, because now I'm not producing those pretty photos, they're going to go somewhere else. So but there's where I get to go. So they just stay off and you'll see that people have, I think we are all kind of fatigued with content these days. So engagement is down, comments are down, and it's not because the quality of the content is bad. It's because you've shifted away from what brought me here in the first place. I remember I used to pin on Pinterest for hours, but now you're forcing videos on me. Like I don't need to be here. I can try and find something else or I'll live my life outside of social media, right? I'll just step away from it. And I think that's what a lot of us are doing. I think you're raising an interesting question, Zach, which is like, shouldn't we evolve, shouldn't platforms evolve and content evolve? I mean, we push brands and the three of us are pushing an industry that doesn't really want to evolve to evolve. But I think to Jennifer's exact point, I don't feel like the platform, the platforms, what they did is they removed the control. So they didn't do an experiment. They went all in. And now you basically have what's the word? They basically have confirmation bias. So you're right, your videos did get a ton more views than images. But who is it? And are they purchasing? And then have you significantly narrowed the demographic that can be there, the brands that can be there, the transactions that can happen, the type of engagement that happens? I feel the same about Instagram. I get sucked into reels and they work because they there's a psychology to it that's smarter and more powerful than my will power is. And that's fine. But I get pulled out of the feed away from brands that I've intentionally followed to all of Jennifer's points and I'm just a single person, but I'm also, you know, I'm a single point of data, I guess. So I'm I'm interested for the pendulum swing because it always does, right? Like we're in a moment now where two or three years ago, Zuckerberg came out and said, hey, the algorithm now prefers post once a week, maybe twice. And if you get really good engagement, your next post will be seen otherwise you're out and or unless you pay us money. And now we're seeing Instagram influencers who are like instructional influencers similar like Jennifer say you have to post four or five times a day. Almost overnight. It was like a light switch to the pendulum always swings. But I think the question is at what cost is where we have to find out now. Yeah. And Zach, you mentioned innovation. So to me, to let these is it good for these platforms to evolve? I think what needs to happen is innovation needs to be in the content. So if you are a manufacturer that wants to work with influencers and have something on TikTok and Instagram, create separate campaigns, find those experts on those platforms and create something innovative for that platform. Don't try and make the platform itself, you know, a mighty version of something else. Just take the platform to a higher level, your content to, you know, a place that, you know, working with the right person and collaborating and being creative. I think that's how you evolve and that's how you continually engage and attract that end customer. That's great. Jennifer, this has been awesome. If someone wants to connect with you or reach out, what's the best way for them to do that? Yeah, you can find me on Instagram at rambling Renault or follow me on my blog, rambling renovators. It's great. We'll make sure we lead to that in the show notes too. And Jennifer, can't think enough for coming on the show. We encourage everyone to go follow her on Instagram as well as check out our blog. If you enjoyed this content, make sure you check us out at vimdo.com slash podcast to subscribe and get more. Until next time, I'm Zach Williams alongside that lovely glove. Thanks everyone.