 Welcome to Toffy TV, it's my pleasure to say I'm joined today by Gavin Buckland, who is a statistician, a media pundit and now an author. I've done a couple of books in the past to be fair, but this is by far my favourite. Money can't buy his love ever in the 60s, which is oddly a period that is overlooked, I think, or it's just overshadowed because of the 80s. I think our entire history is overlooked in the sphere. I agree with you. For a club whose stop-line is if you know your history, we must be the most under-recorded club of any of the top teams in England. There's just like no history books about Everton. There's books about interviewing players and all that. They want one interview and stuff. But in terms of sitting down and writing the history of like from date one to date two, we just haven't got any. So there was obviously a gap in the market there and why not start in the 60s. Over the decade it was our most successful decade winning two of the titles of one FA Cup. I'm not only that, what I was keen to tie in in the book is to tie in with the 60s massive cultural change, massive political and economic change. And Liverpool as a city was at the forefront of that and so I was quite determined, as it were, to tie that all into one story. So from a personal point of view, is the 60s when you started to get into Everton and start going again? Just, I'm not that old. I'm just cleaning that up. No, 72 was my first game though. I took an interest. I vaguely remember us winning the title in 70. Because we went to Ponsons in Ainsdale that year and I had a new kit. In fact, the only ever kit I've ever had to be fair, including a pair of Alan Ball white boots. And I remember telling all the lads outside playing on football in the grass, big champions. 72 was my first game so I haven't written about it. I missed it completely. That's quite familiar because I'm sort of in the same boat. I started going in the game in 85. So I've seen both league titles. I've seen the European Cup before but I'm always a chat. I was like six and seven. So even though I can say I was there, I didn't really expect it. I mean I did cry when my dad went to Rotterdam and didn't take me. But then when you look back and go, yeah, as if my alpha was going to take me to Rotterdam. So I can understand what you mean. It was like you experienced it. I had all the kits. I had everything but I didn't really experience it. It makes it more interesting but it does as well because you think you know about it. You know, I've done loads of stuff on him. But actually when you go into the real detail of it, you realise that there's a lot of stuff there that's laying on covers. And also what you were also faced with is narratives that have grown up over the years. Actually when you look at the facts actually, you know, said that, said that, that wasn't right. Something different happened there. We didn't know that happened. People told that story so I do intend to hopefully write something on the 80s in the future or that would be a different book because it was there. This is a far more enjoyable thing to do because it wasn't. And so you're learning new stuff. No, I think you're right, saying them what you've just said there because, going back to what I was saying with the 80s, those people are then the ychee heroes but a lot of things get mixed up because you are, you see it from like a childhood kind of thing and you only get half stories or people will tell you these mythical stories and then when you find out the truth or you eventually get to meet some of these players and hear what really went on, things are very different. Yeah, and the other thing is amazing to live the decision not to interview anybody for this book. That's simply the reason I wanted to be in my story. Yeah. And because what happens now is, as we all know, I'm not talking about players, players will have their own interpretations of the truth, based on their experiences, you don't necessarily get the full picture and that's really what happens I think probably since the 60s. I've heard a lot of the players' interviews since name no names. People have said stuff actually, that wasn't true, you know. I will give you an example. Alex Young always said that Harry Catech had it in four and Harry did this and Harry did that. But when you actually look into the detail and look at the stories, say for example, Alex said that Harry blocked his move to New York Ranges. He must have got back to his end of his career in 60s and Harry didn't like me. Actually, when you have a look, I was in the case, Alex didn't want to go because he was home today. You know, that was what was reported at the time. And so you always get that type of thing, which I think it's always good to correct that type of thing. This is what it was like at the time. What I was keen to do, two or three things. The first thing was I wanted to write it as a neutral. I didn't want to write it as an evident fan. I'm writing this as some of these not an evident fan. And the second thing is I wanted to not do like in all singing or dancing. The 60s are fantastic. The school of science, totally trinity. We're just brilliant, you know, and lots of cheerleading and all that. I wanted to do it as a true history of the 60s and up to 73, which it goes up to. Include in a lot of the darker stuff, which there was. Jordan and the decades involved in everything purely because we're very rich. And if you're very rich, you're a target for people. And I was quite keen to shine a light on that darker stuff, just to give it a book, a bit of balance and a bit of context. You mentioned being rich. Obviously, we were called the Maisie Millionaires. John Morse came in and obviously fan called the club. So was he the first real kind of, you know, that kind of person? The sorts of people that proliferate in football now. Yes, he was. I mean, they've been clubs with money. I mean, before, Sunderlands were known as the Bank of England Club. You know, I was still years and years before I had that money. The difference with Morse is he had money, but he also had ambition. And not only that, he had public ambition in that he went to the press. I said, you know, he says, you know, this is what we want to win the title. You know, there was the key part of, in many respects, the Morse era. And the way he sort of set the tone for English football in the years that followed is he obviously sacked Johnny Carey famously in the back of it. Yeah, taxi, you know. So to give you the context, Johnny Carey had finished fourth batteries. That was 61. He pointed to Harry Catterick as manager, former player. Though I was just saying the book, Harry wasn't the first. He was the manager. He offered someone else to post and he turned it down. And he offered somebody else to post a £5,000 and he turned it down. And Harry accepted for £3,500. He just showed you how much Morse wanted this other thing. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, press conference Harry Catterick. Someone asked Morse quite, you know, playing the question. Mr Morse, you just sacked Johnny Carey for finishing fourth. What will happen if Harry Catterick finishes fourth? And Morse turned out to be sacked as well. And nobody's really had that attitude as a chair before. If you have a look at the management ten years in the 40s and 50s, teams could be mid-table and they managed to be still in the job for five or ten years. There wasn't a pressure for success. What Morse brought to the table, rightly or wrongly, was that pressure for success and it came from him at the top and he expected everybody else under him to have the same commitments and ambition. And he said, you know, a clubgap, the best directors, best coaches, best managers, if they're not successful, they'll have to go. That was his mantra. And pretty much that, every club in football now is run that way, whether in the Premier League or in the Second Division, you know. And I say in the book, Catterick and Morse, though they didn't realise it at the time, creased the first modern football club in terms of the way the club was run, the way it was ambitious, the way it was publicly ambitious. Whether that was a good or bad thing for Evan isn't my point. Whether it was that was a good or bad thing for football is also an interesting point as well. But they were very much groundbreaking, both of them. So did Morse do that because it would highlight him as his for his older company, so like Little Woods. So you see like obviously now the people of Old Man City, that's a fantastic PR for their other businesses. Did he do that because that would make it look like, well, if everyone are winners, then you can see that my other companies are winners. I'm not, I don't think, I'd say no. It's a good question actually, Pat. Give me half an hour. It's not an angle I think that there was there. It may be impatiently to him. I think it's a simple reason. There wasn't a communication then, that there is now social media and all that internet where you can easily, you know, cross-reference one to the other. There's no advertising. But I think it was just that it was to him an extension of his business activity as a sort of, he'd been a winner in business, he wants to be a winner in football. He'd been to Evan, he was an Evan fan. He'd probably like half a million people he said he was there in school, you know, I can't hear what you mean. You know, that type of thing. He was an Evan fan. He wanted Evan to be successful. That's why he joined the club. Though intriguingly I say in the book that he was also at the chat with TV when he was the Liverpool chairman, this had been in the late 50s, and he was offered to join the board at Liverpool and he thought about it because I had a leaning towards Liverpool. So I don't know which side. Well, it's helped the whole Moors family a little bit like that though. Well, that's really intriguing, you know, because LitWoods, of course, involved themselves in both clubs. I'd haven't obviously, they gave money to players. At Liverpool, like LitWoods, architects designed the stands for free to charge. LitWoods will give parameters on Liverpool's books, jobs, give them time off to train. There was this intriguing position in 63-64 where I think it was like 28 people, either LitWoods employees or part of the Moors family, and 30% of both Everton and Liverpool. If you think about that, now the Premier League would be all over that as a conflict of interest. Moors himself was a Liverpool shareholder whilst being Everton's chairman, but he was quite clear where the line crossed. He would never do anything to support Liverpool from a financial perspective. It was all Everton for him. What he did say, which I think is something that I was offered to time was that he believed that both clubs in the city, for them both to be successful, was really important that these sorts of drove each other on. And you see that same Manchester over the last 10 years. And it's no coincidence that our successful pair is in the mid-80s, Liverpool was successful, the 60s both, Liverpool was successful. So there's something in that. Whether same or shared, he would get away with that saying. Do you know what though? I fully agree. He likened Everton to Liverpool to a deal he did in Barcelona. And he was very much a visionary and a modernist like that. I think he just wanted Everton to be successful as he was a sort of fan. And he wanted the city. He'd taken a lot out of the city in terms of, you know, people came from money, doing the pools and stuff. I think he felt that also was a little bit of putting something back in. And that relationship with Liverpool was, you know, really, with Everton in particular. And yeah, it's an intriguing. He's an intriguing character most. He was a man of action. The story that comes most up for me is little would you start a male order stuff and, you know, this mid-40s of it. This is from the 30s onwards. And tell the story that they had problems with British Rail and this stuff throughout the country. I'm not sure what the railways were like then. Right, you're probably better with the honour. He was getting damaged in transit. So he invited the head of British Rail. British Rail was in the court of town. So the little's office in Liverpool. And he brought a little's wardrobe into his office. And the fella came in and started complaining to this fella. Anyway, he got me this employee to bring an action. And in front of the fella, he smashed the water with an axe and said, that's what you're trained to do to my wardrobe, sort it. And that's what that's all you need to know about John Mores. He was a man of action, ruthless and he'd get his message across, you know. It's actually what I would say about John Mores. It's odd that the club itself don't celebrate him more. Like, I love that statement. There's the old video clip. It was in the old official video, wasn't it? Evan expects. And they don't use that. And I think there's a slight embarrassment at times because fans who get agitated, they use that quote. This is what Evan expects. That's certainly the optimum, isn't it? And Harry's the same. I'd argue that Harry has not really been celebrated in the same way. And strange that you are right, the two of them as a pair should be celebrated. He created modern football clubs. He created them or never between them. Yet strangely, they're in the shadows. It's the players of that generation who've been celebrated. I think there's lots of reasons for that because I think one of them being is that maybe we're not popular. I think people didn't like that ambition. They weren't comfortable with it. One of the things I wanted to ask you though was how John Mores acted at odds with Harry Catech. Because one of the things that... I mean, listen, one of the things that you hear as you grow up is that the reason why Liverpool was so popular or so popular in the media is because of Bill Shankly because he was so outward where Catech didn't want the media anywhere in either. John Mores was someone who was telling everybody whatever I'm going to do and Catech was a very private person. How did that balance itself out? They were both similar. They were both men of actions, not wards. I think Harry changed to Super Mores. At Sheffield Wednesday, Harry was very much, you won't believe this, he was a players manager. He was on the coaching pitch, all that type of stuff. When he came to Everton, I think he realised that... I've said this a couple of times in relation to this. You know that thing about keeping your friends close to you when you're the closest still? I think he realised when he came to Everton on the Mores is I don't want to keep my distance away from him. I've got to be by him. He became a sort of director's manager where he was in the boardroom. He was a general manager rather than the coach. He left the coaching to others to delegate to that. He changed to Super Mores, I think. As far as my word, he got on. I think because Harry knew he had to, because actually, if you think I don't, he gets that. So Harry was quite very savvy, like that. Harry wouldn't be a sort of vocal in terms of his vision for the club. He was quite circumspect with the media. I think that there was an instance after he got beat by Sheffield Wednesday earlier on at Goddison 4-0 in 1961, but some of the players went to the media afterwards to complain. I think he realised quite early on that, actually, what that means is don't let your players near the media and be very circumspect with the media. I think he distrusted them. But he was straight with them. He told them what he needs to say, and that was it. Shankley is, again, this is one of these myths and narratives that others have called over here. Shankley, when he first came down from Scotland, he was very similar. People come understand him. Michael Silver. Eric Todd in the garden said, he speaks in riddles as it were. He wasn't like that media colossus that people said he became. I think in the mid-60s, television, the press, all that, the popularity of the game skyrocket. Skyrocket was a copy of Matt's at day on. I think people, as I say, in the book, needed people to sell the product, and Bill was ideal for that. So I think the press needed Bill more than Bill needed the press. I think at some point later in the decades or in the early 70s, the reverse happened. That sort of led to Liverpool's popularity, but I think just as part of me, I think there was Shankley, there was Matt's at day, you had the cop and all that. Alec Weekins, the BBC producer, Matt's at day, they used to say that I love going to Hanfield because if the game's rubbish, we put our cameras on the car. And then you had that Liverpool tied in with the Beatles and all that major beat thing. Kenneth Pauls, the home when he introduced the first Matt's at day, said, welcome to Beatleville. So the links, and they had Bill Cossing and all the Beatles on. So the links of the field got fact that in the city were more associated with Liverpool rather than Southern. And I think that's why the media grew at the ball club. And those routes that were planted in the mid 60s about both clubs, I would say are still there now. So why didn't we get that though? I mean, even in your book there, the front is the Beatles front. We've seen it last week on the garden street, the whole thing, you see pictures of Paul McCartney to 66 FAQ front, whether he was a blue one, I mean he always says he's the leanings at. He's a bit like John Mullen, he's leanings at a world level. So why didn't we get that then? Because everybody hated us. Because we won the title. We were seated like... Think of the disdain in which, with all due respect to Chelsea with regard to when the Marineo came in and Abramovich and all that type of stuff. Greedily goblin of players, exorbitant players, bullying players, bullying clubs that are selling them players become unpopular with other support, support of other clubs. And never more like that. You had that far more prevalent note of the press than. And the press, sudden press, loved spares. Manchester Press loved. United, you know. So everybody hated us. So, you know, there was something about this around the other week, saying about whether could it be an event if the Beatles had started the area, no chance. Because everybody didn't like us. Living pool with the new kids on the ground. The lovable underdogs. So we were tempted to come out of the second division. And we were historic. I told about that in the book. We were historically the bigger club. We were football aristocracy. Liverpool weren't. We were being found members of the football league. To say I'm not. Liverpool were not. In the same way. So Liverpool coming up to the second division Beatles or that tied them perfectly. And we shouldn't look very antiquated. Very old fashioned. And the club never really did anything to rectify that. Whether we have done since that. We haven't. We haven't. And that's not necessarily a bad thing, by the way. I disagree. I'm not saying totally great. It's an element that you want to retain. There was an interesting one thing that the club in 64, worried about the bad press. I went from Liverpool University to do study on Evans Media Relations. Lots of things came out of it. And we made a lot of recommendations. When are they going to start in plant? I'll leave you to that. Get a press officer. Cheat the press better. Give them more access to the players. All that type of thing. All the things they weren't doing. Guess what the club did? More thing. That sounds like everything from football club. The public side. I don't know people like the drugs and bribery. In the early 60s. They were quite distrustful of the media. It was understandable. I think that sort of drove a bit of paranoia. Unwittingly or not. I think they were very circumspect about outsiders. Somebody in the late 60s, early 70s. Still up a shareholders meeting and said Why it hasn't and she ever done! And I remember this a kid. That was my, that was the sort of like message I was given, that everybody hated Evan, they didn't like anybody, they were anti-Evereston, didn't like television, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And you know, and that came because of this desire to succeed. It was all about winning, you know. And I think that's great, but ultimately that can be quite a negative thing, that can lead to insecurity amongst players, amongst staff, all that type of thing. And that certainly happens with the club. And that's when I say about more as a category to start in the first modern football club. Some respects to that is not necessarily good, you know. It wasn't good for us. Some of the votes when we sat Billy Bingham in 77 that made that said that column element that somebody's telling I've said that. You know, the desire for success at Evan over the years has been very damaging and counterproductive. And I think that was certainly by the early 70s, that was certainly the case, you know. But it's a great story. It was a unique story at the time, you know. It was revolutionary, you know. And even better because it's a time when the world was changing, you know. The Guardian said in that in 2013, it was 50 years from 1963. They said 1963 was the first year of the modern world, you know. Because lots of new things started to happen. But that was when we won the title. With money, you say. And that was the first time that had been done so. Or our title victory was in tune at the time, the way the world was changing. What I find interesting about that is, you know, someone's been a hater club. Everton has essentially been, you've said before, not been written. Everton are one of the most unluckiest clubs ever. League title holders at the beginning of both Whale Wars. And I know it's a long, long time ago, but we're talking about the 60s now, is that it didn't seem like there was any sympathy for us. Whereas you look at, like, obviously what happened to Man United in the 60s, 68, winning the league, winning after what had happened with Munich, obviously, previously. Man United gained a lot of sympathy from that. But it doesn't seem like Everton gained any sympathy. Or, you know, just a little bit of slap. Because of what had happened with the Whale War, the Second Whale War. You know, having, you know what I mean? Yeah, I get that. I mean, certainly 39, they had a great team. If you read stuff in the 60s, do you say that the best happened team has done in 1939? A few people who are not around but sort of like have parents who are around and stuff like that. But that said exactly that. Yeah, I just don't... I think what it is that there's something deeply significant that was to talk about in the very end, to do like a sort of wrap-up chapter, you know, about things. And to talk about that type of thing about how we've never really left any sort of legacy. Yeah. Unlike other clubs in the 60s, you know, go to Liverpool, we've just spoken about, you know, Leeds, Dailty Leeds, great teams, Dailty Leeds, Man United, Bessel Orchard, Chelsea King's Road, all that type of thing. You know, West Ham Adelaide, you know, Wind and the Rail Cup. Spears had the double team. All teams and club staff of that time who left something for popular culture. Yeah, yeah. Where we didn't. Yeah. We sort of got, we got lost. Within half a lot of reason. Which still explains to this day why I think why we are a little bit. We don't get the credit that would you. We don't get the sort of attention that would you. Cos we're still a big club, you know. And I think a lot of it can be traced back to this period that I'm talking about, you know. It was very interesting. And we didn't really leave a legacy. I know I hate that word legacy. Well, that's similar to the 80s, though. I mean, it's the same. It's why, you know, it's why Rob Sloan was making the film, he's making it. It's again, it's like the lost. We always, and this is it. I think it's interesting with this. It's like Harry Cattock. This is obviously winning the league in 63 and 69-70. Two different teams. Yeah. No, you know, no, no through line, you know. And one of the things that people always accuse Harry Cattock of and say to me with Alan Ball is he kept on wanting to change a winning team. Yeah. It was, do you think it's something to do with that? It's the fact that clubs have, those clubs you've mentioned may have had a sustained period of success and had all the same players. Yeah. A mix of players. Yeah, it's a good point. We didn't, we had to, we should have won the title problem in 64. I think we do want the title like two years on the bounce or two out of three seasons. You would say that was a great team perhaps. Well, the fact that they were two different teams, perhaps you lose a little bit of focus, don't you? Yeah. So we did win a cup in 66. Yeah, yeah. And we were, you know, after 66 we were a great team for four years. Yeah. I think maybe that comes into it. I think the mid 80s stuff is around the fact that. In the mid 80s, you know, you saw the start of it, is football. Like you were sort of a player. You watch football. It's only hard course. Football, you know. If you were a famous sport in the mid 80s, you're more likely to be an athlete, a cricketer or a snooker player. Yeah. You weren't going to be a footballer. So football was, you would be the best team in Europe probably at the waist at football in this country. And so you've forgotten about and that's sad in a way. But we got, we have been unlucky, but then again, we shot ourselves in the foot so many different times. Definitely. And I don't think, you know, the decline after 70 wasn't unlucky. That was just bad management and poor plan of bycater. It was lost as well. Was that down to striving for too much? Because people went to the 70s. But you look at the finishes in the 70s. People would kill for some of those finishes now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And neighbors deemed this unsuccessful. Yes, absolutely. It's because there were a lot of trucks. Well, yeah, but if those people, if like, say Billy Bingham, you'll have to build and just have the plays he had rather than sacking and changing all the time. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, no, absolutely. Again, I talked about that in the book. So I've had the quid that I've said that in the interview. I've the whole point of the interview. I talked about that in the book. I used to that. And there's a bit of that of the 70s were not so bad after all. And I say that when you look at it, 1970, what happened? All the big clubs in the 60s, what happened to them from 70 onwards? OK, start off with United, relegated in 1974. Spears relegated in 1977. Leeds went into decline, ends up getting relegated in the early 60s, early 80s. Man City likewise. Chelsea went down in 1975. Arsenal never went down. But we're in two relegation battles with bottom of the table for a long stages in I think it was 74, 75. So all the big industrial clubs were massive in the 60s. All went into tail and decline when the great managers left and they didn't have any continuity. And there was economic changes in the game that affected them. So that left really only two clubs in that group. Left us and Liverpool. And we, 70 onwards, what? Two, two, three, I think, up seven. Farners, Leacop, Farnor, Wembley, three or four, top four finishes up until power came. Which on face value. Yeah, OK, decent compared to all the other clubs who all slid into decline. The problem was it was the... It was the other lot across the park, wasn't it? And what I say in the book, and it's not a Christmas of Liverpool as such. I say in the book, Liverpool on the outside had great teams. But it was pretty easy for them. You know, it could have been us. Yeah. Good management could have been us. Look at the teams that finished up, then run us up to Liverpool. 70s, 80s, QPR, Watford, Southampton. Nothing more for us, if switch. Not massive clubs, massive giants. They were provincial clubs. And that could have been us with good management. That is then a great Liverpool. A little bit extra, 20% extra performance. We could have easily won two or three titles in that period. If we'd have got it right, but we didn't. And I think that the 70s and 70s were going to miss opportunity. That's your next book. What is space mate? But Liverpool took advantage of that. That vacuum, we didn't. And it was a great opportunity. And it took the riches really, the Premier League, to get all the big industrial clubs back. But it was. And we declared after 70s talk about a lot and there's lots of different reasons to say. I think one of the proudy ones though is you got 10 years at the top as a man, isn't it? Whether you're Brian Clawford or anything like that. Bob Hasey did nine years at Liverpool. Shanks did a decade. John Levy did a decade at Leeds. Bill Nixon did a decade at Spears. He did a decade at the top. And he did a decade at the top. He did a decade at the top. He did a decade at the top. He did a decade at the top. He did a decade at the top. But he had 10 years at the top. Because you then suffer because of changing the game, younger managers, the gap between you as a manager and the players becomes that energy gap comes. Why that? The taxes that you've employed become out of date. You know. And by 1771, Harry, done with 10 years. What I do say in the book though, he was a great manager. Because with all the other club managers of different clubs like Shankly, Revy, Nicholson, Busby, all associated with one club with success. And Harry's a bit knackered compared to them. What Harry did is enormously successful this Sheffield Wednesday when he had no money. But two players, I think, in four years of Sheffield Wednesday took up from the second division to run us up to the first division at the semi-final. Operating on the shoestring. And Harry's greatness of manager compared to them is operating under massive pressure with loads of money in heaven. But also, regardless of Sheffield Wednesday, he's probably greatest ever manager when you have no money at all. And that, the management skills you need to do, doing that when you're like that. Well, exactly. Because as money's found out, the two completely different skills. I think Fakeson probably did that, Aberdeen Llyr and United. But two completely different sorts of scenarios. Harry did it both ways, you know. You've got to appreciate that fact. And I think that's lost when he gets talked about with his contemporaries, you know. I say in the book his best years of manager was probably late 50s to the mid 60s. I think by 70, strange stuff to put on the tail, I think his best years of manager would be hard. You know. He had vision he was hungry for success in the early 60s. Because of that more thing to talk about. I think some of that had gone by the end of the decade. So it was evidence failure to maybe replace him when he was sort of at the top but on the way down. Yeah, absolutely. And 70, when we won the title, he said he would own a team. They had like four or five players who were made to end of their career. But by 70, being the first to play for eight to nine years, you know. Yeah, it was two things. Further on the pitch to the place, it was great players were great players. Like, did I say Liverpool did under under Paisley? And it was also then that failure at board level to manage that that change over. But they weren't the only club to do that. Man United never replaced Bowsby, Spares never replaced Nicholson. Armfield to a degree at Leeds did it but he that eventually got, you know, went. You know, Man City never replaced Mason, Mason and Allison. They just they just didn't. And we failed to replace Harry. If we had done, then we could have been enormously successful. I mean, because he would have to have a 73 but to talk about it. Nobody wants to be on the street, you know. But John might have brought something for a few years. You would have to have Bobby Robson as well. A 73, Bobby. Yeah, Bobby must have been to 40 and off Evan's Incess. Three times he would have to have Bobby Robson. Was he four? Yeah, he had a few bob off Evan's Incess. But he was going to join in 77. Robson wasn't he. He changed his mind on them all the way because he came out on the press. Pretty insipid. And Bobby Robson in 73 or 77 would have been a great, great appointment for us. You know, if they come in 73, you may have done a great job. But Bobby Robson in 73 would have been a great appointment for us. You know, if they come in 73, you may have done a great job. You may have done a great job. A great job. But if it's but to me, because at the end of the day we did miss a big opportunity. We had that enormous, successful pair. It was just a massive club. You know, you see the tendences and things like that. You know. The interest that we, that, you know, the supporters, the interest in football, we were just one of the major players in English football, you know. And Harry takes a lot of credit for that. And we had great players as well, didn't we? Harry wasn't a great developer of talent. He wasn't like more, you know, more he's bought players in, like, you know, less scotch, actually, but then made them into better players. Harry wouldn't do that. Harry's thing was he bought star players. But his gift was buying the right star players for the part of the team, you know. He didn't expect players to come in and then develop them. You know, he was, he lied on youngsters, he said, I can indoctrate them in their ways. And star players, he felt that he couldn't buy experience players from other club and change the ways. And he was, that was his sort of answer as a manager. By the early 70s, that was a bit outdated because clubs weren't selling their star players. You know. So you have a look at the clubs who were successful because players you could, managers you could bring players through from the third or fourth division and relaunched the craze of people who were and by the way said, Brian Ploff was a great example of that, wasn't he? Bill Shankley was a Liverpool. Shankley bought players and like, he was scum talk to me. He was over sure. He scammed us there the other night. Harry would never have done that. He couldn't do it. But Shankley couldn't manage star players. So that was a big difference between him and his managers, you know. And when I think about it now, we did miss a big office unity as you say. The early 70s too. We could have been enormously successful. Yeah, because it's strange, isn't it? Because 69-70 is obviously the Holy Trinity. Got people like Joe Royal in there. And yeah, that was it. That was it. It all built up for him. Obviously getting Alan Ball in 66 after the World Cup and playing the best player in the World Cup in the science forever. It all builds up to 69-70 and then batting. That's it, yeah. It was 50 years ago, wasn't it? It is. There's lots of theories. I could talk about them all day. I think Alan Ball stopped. It was with the young side of God five years ahead of us. No, well, not really. You've got Johnny Morrissey playing in the 50s. Brian LaBone was playing in the 50s. Key players meeting under their career. You had Sandy Brown was playing. He finished up. And I like to have Alan in the door as he played eight years in the top flight, you know. Colin had likewise seven or eight years. He had players with him. He hadn't got a lot of miles on the clock. And few of them started picking up into these. Tommy Leith did, Joe himself did. And, well, if Harry had gone out in 70 and bought two or three star players, he'd finished up. And I like to have Alan in the door as he played eight years in the top flight, you know. He had gone out in 70 and bought two or three star players. We couldn't manage it, but he just felt that the team was just going to carry on being successful. But actually was it a team in need of an innovation, you know, in three or four key areas. And I think that was one of the main reasons. And there was to Harry was tactics a bit out-molded then. He was playing three midfield. Most of the teams started playing four. Starts playing four full. So, you know, there was 20 slide partnerships and all that type of thing. So, we never really played. Most teams then started playing with, like, a midfield, like, sort of hushlight, you know. Somebody had set deep big things up and me didn't play with anybody. It was like a midfield destroyer. And so, we were a bit behind, I think, you know, the way football was going. People were playing far more traditional football, but Harry still wanted to play good football. And seeing you was right. Very good, very good, but it was becoming out-molded, you know. And it was becoming more physical. So, there's lots of different reasons why. And Alan himself was burnt out. Yeah. Alan the burnt out by 71, you know. I thought there's a whole chapter in the book about Alan Borsale. To me, the most interesting part of the book because there's lots of new stuff in there. It's a bit of a mystery who's being bought. When you need it, all right now, a thousand words of it would go from the start of the 71 season to, like, when he was sold in the January six months, you need it. So, you can see why he was sold. There's a four or five instance of documents that Alan was... There was a lot of conflict between him and Harry on a personal level, I think. But he shot as a player, he'd gone. That, again, you're relying on other people's narration when a company, you know, from my age. That feels like that's the moment that everybody uses as the time that ever, like, completely finished and the category is finished. That was, like, the one moment. You've just sold your best player to Arsenal. The player that, for a lot of people, believe that is the best-ever player they've ever seen. Yeah, certainly best-ever player, yeah. And that always feels like that was the moment and that was to blame. Instead of saying, you know, there was a little bit of... It's like knowing people talking about Alex Fagerson and where you've manurated that. Now, no-one remembers that actually in the last season of Fagerson, but you had Van Nils, they were right to get them the title. Van Pesley, yeah, yeah. Van Pesley, sorry. Is there a lot more to the downfall and Alan Ball just to blame? No, no, there's a lot more, but you must have had that. You've summed up one of the pages in there but they're perfectly... I do talk about that. There was lots of reasons and people remember because it's hugely symbolic. I say in the book that Alan, with a team and a club, strangely for our status and being, you know, normally successful in English football, we've never really employed top-class, rare-class players. Players who are household names, very few in far between. As a comparison to Spears, not as successful in Leetay, I'm sure it wins. What do you got today or whatever it is? Some of the rare-class players and household names they've had, but I do say that one of them was Alan Ball, who sort of like, in the time of heaven, he was one of the best footballers in England, so he was rare-class and he was famous and we've had very few of that. He was the only ever player whose name was known through every household in the country. So when we sold him, he was hugely symbolic because I can't remember the way he said he felt selling the family silver. That's what Harry did. Justified in selling him but he was hugely symbolic and I say in the book, what you're saying, it diluted the national standard of the club. It's never been the same since. I say, go on back to your early point. It sounds like if you code over this, it's enormously successful in the mid-80s but that's when consistent football was at the rock bottom. I think 15 million people watched top-life football in 1970. It was like 8 million in the mid-80s. It's sort of gone down 40-50%. You couldn't watch it on TV either? No, you couldn't watch it on TV. You had hooliganism, you had all that type of stuff. The game's image was just dreadful and in a different era we would have got far more attention going back to your point before but the sailor ball was usually symbolic in terms of like, it symbolised the end of the Moise era. The Moise era. The amazing millionaires, both everybody's successful, now sold. I don't think it was the best player in 71 but our most famous and he started the best player and we never really recovered and then some would say and I would say we've not been the same since. I suppose it's sort of like when we showed Llynyche in terms of if we kept Llynyche you had a player who'd won the Golden Booting a World Cup, a very, very popular World Cup. A very popular World Cup in this country because England would seem to have done very well and you know if you think if we kept him for two more years, Everton's standing off the back of him would have just gone up and up and up and up but we sold him at that kind of a pointy and we were so guilty of doing that so many times in our history. There was lots. Llynyche one was a strange one but you were right in that he was like one of the most famous footballers in New York wasn't he at the time and people say well it didn't really matter because you won the title but it's as you say it's the years after that that important thing isn't it and whether he stayed we may have been viewed differently we may have performed differently but yeah the Alan Ball sales which you talk about a lot Alan was a very complex person himself and him and Harry he was a complex man himself that sort of like that sort of being against each other I think the sort of that friction was quite intriguing really but Alan was a great player for Everton he was a great player but Colin was a great player for Everton that side of the book that you know good students of the game around the time something like John Levy, John Mays he said out of the Holy Trinity that Colin Harvey was the best player out of the three of them. I suppose that's a good thing about the legacy is that people of my generation because I've never seen Alan Ball play I would never say Alan Ball or Alan Ball this, Alan Ball that I always say the Holy Trinity we always point to the Holy Trinity and I think that's a good thing maybe people who watch them play might say might have their favourite but if you didn't watch them play then you wouldn't necessarily say that so when you talk about like people look back if you did that about Moises team you wouldn't go oh our tether was the greatest thing ever you'd go oh we had our tether on the team then isn't it and I think that is the good thing we haven't got a statue to Alan Ball but a statue of all three I haven't got it right myself because all three of them with integral parts of the of the title they were strange enough that they had won the title I say this in the book how many games did they play together out of 42 where all three played 24 so they played just only half the season together because Alan had some disciplinary issues Colin obviously had the irons that he had himself for a couple of years and so they were in like 40 games together so people said all those three man teams were in the title no it wasn't yeah okay individually they all contributed but there was lots of games where all three of them didn't play so it was a team a bit more of a team effort than people think but you are right Harry was a great fan of midfields when he spent big money on players for midfielders you know because he viewed them as the engine room and the team was only as good as the midfield the attack was only as good as the midfield and I think he he saw England when he won the World Cup he played 4-3-3 and then he was alive to the possibilities of doing that when he bought Alan Ball so we could play three man midfield he had a ball high every day and then he bought Kendall 6-7 months later and then he just progressed from there and I think 68 was the big year where he really started to call and became a far better player Howard got his foot under the table and that 68-70 period did a fantastic for us but strange of Howard's best years was probably after that because he was different ages Howard was a couple years younger Howard's best years was probably 72 maybe 73 when he left but yeah that's great it's great that you can I talk about symbols and legacy down now that is a symbol of legacy for us as supporters isn't it and I think it's right, I think the strategy is great and it captures that the three of them together One player we haven't really mentioned and maybe links maybe the teams together is Brian LeBall Brian LeBall I say in the book that Brian was Brian's problem I think I think of Evan I think of Brian LeBall I think of Evan's number one ambassador number one supporter he's Mr Evan isn't he he's the one who says comes out with all the soundbites he embodies supporters wishes and ambitions doesn't he and what I say in the book that vision of Brian LeBall is like playing career at Evan he's the centre of our forest a great skipper for us one of the reasons we alluded to this before we fell apart Brian's career ended Harry lost that present in the zest room and he was a fine defender lobby strange enough he wanted to retire in 68 and I think sort of kept him in the game I think and Alff said that Brian was a player he was rung up in football of the year for 68 to George Best if you've got to come second make sure George is the first he was the figurehead of that whole decade he started in the late 50s still there in the early 70s he was that noble leader player and he strangely he was nothing about in that era but he's just taken for granted he's not a striker but we love that centre of and he's somehow overlooked I think you're right I got to know Brian sort of because in my early 20s I worked on the railway and Brian frequented the railways every single day he's the same you went carton little woods my lord and I used this but I couldn't I was in my early 20s and this was probably in the 60s I could not have speak to him and I remember when I was at Mughal station and someone I was with was like I was like that's Brian Lebowne they were like who's that I went Brian Lebowne man who never went to the 66th Whale Cook because he was getting married that's another thing that's not necessary that's a bit of a myth but obviously he played in the 1970s Whale Cook and we made and Brian Lebowne came over grabbed him and went he won't speak to you Brian Lebowne came over and then every time I'd see him he'd always come over and he'd go why don't you ask me to show me if I pass and I go because you're Brian Lebowne and I met him one day and then in the night I went to function and he was there and he came straight over to me pulled his pass out and went it's funny obviously a bit old but those plays are there for your life I remember Howard passing away 2015 and being really upset I was Howard passing away but the only party you like extended family aren't they and even if they're long gone they're still there and they're still revered because when he had that millennium thing he had in the 2000 and he said like because Alex Young got it in the 60s and like he said he said there's been Alan Ball I won the fact, I said Brian Lebowne was he played for the entire decade and he was the leader of the team captain, enormously influential and he was almost important playing in the 60s and obviously the man who came out with one episode again like you said before it's a symbol that people will use it's a joke isn't it he's not malishing it like he was old school wasn't he but it's a great laugh if you've never watched the original official history there's some absolutely brilliant but it's funny because there's almost an attitude from some of these plays like we said John Moors Brian Lebowne there's an attitude this is effort in football club and that attitude has been lost because a lot of I don't know whether it's fans or the club or things that have been left over from the 60s like you said before we've let all the clubs just pat us on the edge and I suppose you can't you don't know that to me if you haven't seen it so to disappear but there's a lot of instances I think of that just completely gone away because that's what you're saying before is that our statue of original members of the football league it annoys me and one thing that really browns me off in football, especially when you need press that's from younger lads in the press and all this that's not from Liverpool outside it's all about Liverpool and Everton Liverpool massive club historically the bigger club no up until up until the first 80 years of football on this side Everton more trophies bigger success bigger clubs bigger play bigger club richer club and we regard like that both within Liverpool and and that lasted that lasted probably until the early so probably the mid 70s it's when Liverpool started when the European Cups started changing and where Liverpool then started to pull ahead and people looked at the derby record now on that derby record it's like as we know it's anxious but it was only until Everton had won more derbies in Liverpool up until like the 80s it's still quite equal and then when you look at it and go it's still quite equal and we haven't won one for ages that'll change but you know when people looked at the derby record and go well Liverpool have won 25 that means they're more successful no no no actually 80 years in football in the city so 80 out of 125 years football in the city we have a bigger club a more successful club and people don't realise that and that's what I say to to say you're the most successful club in the city you've got to be the bigger club in the city for 80 years now you've only done it for 40 years so come back and speak to me in 2050 then you can say you're the biggest club in the city the problem is they've been the bigger club in the black and white we were black and white and that's the difference isn't it but I think that comes from that that arrogance of of being the biggest club in the city one of the biggest clubs in the country the richest club in the country and that's been lost because actually things haven't been right on the pitch it's interesting little psychological stuff and I do talk about that and people forget that people forget that we've been the biggest club in the city for the majority of football in this country it's only because the colour television, sky TV each that that or being forgotten about I mean you say that we're not even getting put into that group anymore we're getting into putting groups with westhams and leisters and and walls of these clubs and that's what annoys me I don't mind, I've got no issue Liverpool are the European champions as much of that great on me I look at that and go they deserve now to be held up there with your Barcelona's and your Real Madrid as it stands but forever to be put into a bracket with all these other clubs is just walls have been a big club in the time you know if you have a look at your time at the table at 1970 the two most successful English clubs in terms of points one game from Sunderland, Mastanfella it is frustrating isn't it it's not frustrating but we've only got ourselves to blame and you've got to rectify that and hopefully we will rectify it the gap between us and the I think people are now going on to the fact it's now in that top six anymore to top two and then four and then the group then the group that you're talking about so our challenge is to go from the group that we're in now to that top four and then overtake that we might need one of the might need a tech giant to be the little ones of the the time and take us over feel on musk once the buyers I've got no problem with that for our kids in space yeah absolutely but I'm no more on the space and that's right you are right and you've got an opportunity though but there's so much of where we are now is because of that period reflecting society as a whole that so much has brought with us has it is because of the 1960s I feel like we could talk all day but I know we can't so big thanks to Gav make sure make sure you go out make sure you go out and buy this book money can't buy is love buy for your dad that's accentuated with this it's going to dad as you say if you know your history there's only one way to find out your history is by reading fantastic books like this so big thanks to Gav make sure you get this book thanks for watching toffy tv we'll see you later