 Welcome back, it's time for our first hot topic. The Senate has denied reports that 70 billion era located at the National Assembly in the recently passed 819 billion era supplementary appropriation bill was palliative for lawmakers. They also denied padding the supplementary budget. Senator Yemi Adara Maudu, who gave these clarifications, said the money is meant for facelift of the National Assembly and not for individual lawmakers. Well, I want to take a look at this with Dr. Omoshala Adedeji, political scientist. Thank you so much Adedeji for joining us this morning. Good morning, thank you for having me, Omoshala Adedeji. I keep calling you Adedeji, but tell me, what's the difference between Adedeji and Adedeji? Well, Adedeji is like the royal name. Adede means crown that it signifies royalty. Then the other one, mine is called Adedeji. Okay. But I just used Adedeji. Okay. All right, so you listen to what I said as I opened this topic. They are saying that the money is meant for facelift of the National Assembly. But I do understand that the FCDA, the Federal Capital Development Authority, reviewed two months ago that they were renovating the National Assembly. Matter of fact, with as much as 19 billion era, they traveled to Brussels, they traveled to some of the country because they wanted to make sure that this National Assembly complex is built to world standard. And they had said they were also going to include air conditionings and furnishings. So what are they talking about facelift? Can you help us understand better? Well, Nigerian lawmakers in such a good taste for wealth and luxury is something that is very disturbing. Because if you look at the country as a whole, the National Assembly, the structure, the amenities, the convenience at the National Assembly now, if you had to kind of place it on the side by side statistics with the own of many Nigeria's. You will see that the National Assembly that it is now, it's a palace. So if the National Assembly is that so good and you are there to serve the people and the people you are serving are living in abject penury, that is something of serious concern because each year our lawmakers have this static idea of exploiting our common world in terms of buying luxury cars, facelifting. The Senate leadership under Ahmed Lawa appropriated Umongos amount of money for the renovation of the National Assembly. So that brings to mind that the furniture that they appropriate for them have been kind of like spot so fast, the air conditioning, the photocopy machines and other amenities. It has not even been completed according to the MCDA. It will be ready in August. So it's been so serious concern when you say that a country that is as rich poor as Nigeria will now be spending Umongos amount when people are dying, when people are suffering, but it is painful that the government will now push it to the masses that endure, endure. So you should read by example. You should endure because Nigeria has endured, they have suffered enough. So the National Assembly that I see on TV that looks like a mini palace, you know, and you see all the senators with their 10-year stagbada sitting comfortably and you say you are facelifting. What are you facelifting in that National Assembly again? The National Assembly as it is now is good and certain that if we are to do a kind of like continental comparative assessment of the National Assembly in Africa, I'm sure that that of Nigeria will not come last. It will be maybe one of the top five because I have seen the plenary session of South Africa. I've watched it all night before. I've watched that of Kenya and some other countries. So it's not that the National Assembly is backward. It is about insurmountable taste for loxie and green. For example, the former Senate president, Ahmed Lawan, I don't want to believe that he was riding in a non-gulate-proof car. So what happens to the car he was using before? Did the government align to go with it? What is wrong with the car that you don't need to operate for Nigeria from our common world? Forty billion. Forty billion by the minimum wage of today if we are to plus or minus we pay the salary of a lot of Nigerians. But it is sad that in our polity we have leaders that are not concerned about the convenience of the citizens. It's about their family, their friends, their well-wishers and caravans because the National Assembly, as it is right now, needs no face lifting except if they are now saying indirectly that the former Senate president needs to be questioned because what happens to the money? Is it that what the Night Assembly said is going to be done, was not done, what happened to the appropriation? And it is not only the Senate. We are talking the executive arm too whereby the keep appropriating money for different kind of time. We wonder that, excuse me, what happened to the amenities that were there before you got there? This culture of stealing, this culture of stealing things when an administration is wrapping up, those who are living in office live with everything including rugs and chairs and cutleries. To say the least is so disgraceful of us as a people and to think that these things don't get punished and so we keep going round and circle. However, as I said, the SDDA two months ago told us that they are going to build world-class structure for the National Assembly. They went to Rome, they went to Brussels and part of the things they were going to do in addition to the renovations included that they were going to fix air conditioners and put in furniture. So them saying that this money, 70 billion, is meant for facelift of the National Assembly holds no water. However, Femi Fallana, S.A.N. and Serap have ordered them, advised them to reverse this otherwise they will see them in court. How do you respond to these calls from Femi Fallana and Serap? Well, the thing is, it is so sad that the National Assembly will want to build a world-class when Nigeria itself is not world-class by any standard. If you look at our national institutions, our health sector, our roads, amenities, life of the citizens, everything, there's nothing world-class in Nigeria. So if the country tells us it's not world-class, what do you need a world-class National Assembly for? Why are you not striving to build a world-class health center that can manage the health condition of Nigeria that can cover health tourism? Why are you not striving to build world-class universities that can compete favorably with the universities in the western world in terms of university ranking and the intellect of the lecturers? So it is just outright misplaced poverty. But the thing is, I have to commend Serap for taking that bold step. But you see, these men and women in the National Assembly, they have cultivated the kind of mastery of exploiting the masses. It's just like some of these artisans that we have these days. If they are to work for you, if they haven't kind of like stealing directly, for example, if you take your car to a mechanic, if you add extra money to this paper, it has no fuse, comfortable. If you call your plumber, if you add extra money. So this culture of stealing goes from top to bottom. It's just that the ones at the National Assembly, they steal humongously, they steal without the fear of God. Because I don't see any reason why we need a world-class National Assembly. No, what we should be striving for is world-class infrastructure, world-class amenities, tackling our security system. Education, if you go to some tertiary institutions, some university buildings, you'll be shocked. They look like glorified secondary schools in local villages. And the shock that happened to me when I realized that Nigerians were studying in Sudan, Sudan of all countries. So why would Nigerians go and study in a country like Sudan? And you see Nigerians going to a country like the Republic of all places. So our lawmakers are not interested in that. And very soon, it's because it is still the honeymoon period of this government. Very soon, as soon as it's going to come up, health workers are going to come up. Because their issues have not been addressed. So what it would have been interesting to have seen the leadership, to have been proactive about this issue, so that the government and the citizens can have a smooth running. Because if they are concerned about the welfare of the youth, they would have been talking to Asu by now. Not when Asu now wakes up tomorrow morning and says, oh, you have not acceded to our demands. And the usual lyrics will be, there's no money. There's no money. But you have money to fund this luxury lifestyle. And you see, we need to try to always invite this control, sacrifice. If you are contesting for election, it is believed that you want to go and serve the people. Unfortunately, in Nigeria, it is with the people that is starving them because if you use our common world to live a kind of luxury life and if you look at the contribution of some of these lawmakers in terms of debate, in terms of lawmaking, you will score them below average. You are bringing me to my next point. You are bringing me to the next question I want to ask you. Because you see, Nigerians have become more political. They've become more conscious of what's going on in the polity. As we can see, this year, we saw that this year during the elections, towards the buildup during the elections and afterwards, we've seen more Nigerians involved in the things happening with their leaders and their states. And today you see these so-called representatives who are openly displaying opulence in the face of massive poverty in the land. The National Bureau of Statistics has just revealed to us that 62.9% of Nigerians are multi-dimensionally poor, talking about 133 million. And you have those who claim to be representing them, living such lavish lifestyles and opulence. And so we may get to a point, don't you think, Deji, when Nigerians begin to explore the option of recalling these people, and how should you go about recalling them? Let's talk about that. Well, Nigerians, in terms of political orientation, our political orientation has increased, but our political activity has not been so encouraging because the system itself is ineffective and I can say it has been conquered by the ruling class because it will take a whole lot for the constituency to recall any member of the National Assembly. I think it was tried during the turn of Senator Dino Melae, if I'm correct, and the process is very cumbersome. And at the end of the day, you see, the way we are going as a country, even if the constituent initiates the process and it is successful, it is subject to the ratification of the leadership of the National Assembly. Imagine that. So even if it is successful, which leadership in the National Assembly will sit down to ratify the recall of its members? So you can see that, you know... It was structured and initial, not to work. It is safe to hypothesize that the legislature is the most greedy arm of government because it is only in the legislature that you can serve in perpetuity. There is no time. You can be in the legislature for 50 years. Nobody is going to question you. For the executive, you can only serve two times. For the judiciary, you are limited by age. I think if you reach 65 or there above, you have to retire. But for the legislature, you can serve in perpetuity, even if you are on 20 years. Even if you are constituency, so do you think that you should be elected for the 20th time you are permitted under the constitution? So there is this control of greed in the legislature, whereby the kind of past laws that previous them, that allows them to kind of like operate in what I can call like a legal impunity, whereby what you are doing is wrong, but you are now under the law. But on the norm, it is not totally right for you to behave in such a way. So our legislative system, we need to begin to have these strong institutions, strong NGOs, civil society, like the setup you mentioned. But at the end of the day, the activities of this energy is not really taking effect, because I can recall that under the Guari administration, the setup was going to cost almost a second on every issue. But that doesn't stop corruption under the Guari administration. So even if you stop the National Assembly from buying bulletproof cars, facelifting the National Assembly, as they said, they have other means, whereby they can, you know, part the budget last with the executive, and as it is now, the executive and the legislature are in this compression. So what we would have at the end of the day, they have to trace the leadership of the executive and the legislature. They are not super prudent men, if I can use that word. These are men that if you trace their lifestyle, if you trace their political trajectory, they are men that believe in living the life of power, the life of affluence, and the life of luxury. The president, the Senate president, they are not by any way men that are conservative. If you study them, they have time in government, political life and all that. These are men that believe in luxury. Immediately the president won the ticket of the APC. We also is convoy in Lagos, which I think, as I then can easily compete favorably with that of the sitting president, same for Senator Goswila Pabio. So when we have such people in power, definitely the kind of democracy we practice whereby we need to fund their lifestyle. So it is Nigeria's that we pay for it and they will keep living that lifestyle because we don't have strong institutions, we don't have checks and balance. It is easy for you to bridge the system when you are in power. But that is where the Western world sets the example. We set that if it is in the Western world, you cannot, you cannot go with a pin. But we have a system in Nigeria whereby if you are going to have a debt of your channel, you believe that all what you have been using is automatically yours. And as you take the liberty of the incoming government to start retrieving some of those properties from you. So out there you go with government properties. You saw the case of I think Zafara, whereby they were doing virtually everything and the governor had to now initiate the police to be going into the home of, home of commissioners, state legislators to be retrieving state property. So it should go beyond that. There should be prosecution for some of this action. And we should have strong civil society that will take on the cause of justice and we should also have a strong judicial system to kind of like give others that can restrict some of these things that can limit some of these excesses because as it is now, the Senate and the House of Representatives are like this to let the poor breathe. What you've painted right now, DG. The Senate. How do we tame the Senate? You're a political scientist and that's one of the reasons I like discussing with you. How do we tame them and make them more accountable to the people? Especially since they claim to be representatives of the people, how do we get them to become more accountable? One of the ways you can get them more accountable is to have active constituencies. For example, in the United States, if anything is going on in the legislative chamber, you need to consult your constituency. You need to kind of like open a kind of like online polling system to seek the opinion of your constituency and you are bound to follow what your constituency wants because it's going to be like an open opinion system that okay, what do you think, do you support that? So when we have such a system whereby we have active constituencies, the legislature will begin to see the constituencies as their true employer. That power truly belongs to these people and they will act according to the wish of the people because we know that the people are waiting for them. But we don't have active constituency yet because our educational sector is not so efficient and people are busy with the struggle for survival and that is one of the kind of the merit of operating an impoverished society because our people now, I think it can safely fall under the hierarchy of needs. It is where you are able to feel that you think you need a house. It is where you have a house that you would think, oh, you need to go to school or you need a club and it is when you go to school that you would think, oh, you need a better society and you're nothing that out of your habit. A better society is by being politically active but some convenience must first of all come into place first but if you have not eaten, if you don't even have club to wear, you don't have home to live, you are busy occupied by the struggle for survival Isn't that an excuse? Isn't that an excuse, Degi? Isn't that an excuse? I remember one time, Senate President or Senate leader, Dimeji Bankole, yes, of the House of Reps, he had described Nigerians as being docile. Are you not making excuses for Nigerians? Because Nigerians are not the only ones who are going through what Nigerians are going through but took things in their hands to make sure that they brought their leaders, made their leaders more accountable, if you know what I mean. You saw what happened, we've seen what happened in some countries, not just the developed countries, where the people decided that, look, enough is enough. These people must know that power indeed belongs to the people and they were not always developed countries. Even people who were in third world countries took laws, let me not put it that way, but decided that, well, enough is enough. I'm going to your bar, enough is enough. You've got to know that we put you there, even if we put you there, you must respond. You must pay attention to us and you must take notice of what we're saying and what we want you to go there and do for us. Well, the best that can happen is what happened during the election of 2023 whereby there's this organic followership, social consciousness for a desired change, whereby, as we witnessed during the election of Peter Obi, whereby he was able to amass vote. But it only lasts for a little period of time. That social consciousness, that desire to follow it too, is not sustainable because it will be limited by the struggle for survival. As I said, according to the hierarchy of needs, you must have some things in place first before you can be willing to go for other desires or needs. For example, if the cities of the western world, cities of the UK, cities of the United States are to operate under the conditions, living conditions at which Nigeria operates. I can tell you that there will be less political activity. There will be less political participation. There will be less political interest because the struggle for survival, we're kicking and that will take part of their time. For example, Nigerians believe that they are already in a compact system. Even during election, you see people say, oh, I don't want to vote because they already know who wants to put there. And such thoughts, sadly, have been indicated by the conduct of INEG during the last election, right here or wrongly. So if the citizens are busy thinking of how to survive, it is somebody that asks food in his stomach. If you have not eaten last night, you don't know what your kids are going to eat this morning, not to talk of the evening. Will you be interested in what happens in the setting? No, your mind is occupied with how you are going to survive, how you are going to feed your kids. And if you look at the rate of poverty in our country, it will take a kind of like serious mind for you to be very political. And that is why our politicians kept weaponizing poverty. And they have used this as a tool to now conquered the mind of the electorate. Whenever you see people going for world meetings at the world level, why are they going for this world meeting? Because they are going to share what the record of rights are, maybe 500 Naira. So once you receive it, you are bound to operate according to the dictate of the party. And sadly, if you are voting, we have this ballot system that you will even see the security operators giving party agents time about how you have voted. So the constituency is what can make the National Assembly efficient if people in Kogi West, Lagos Central, Chogutu Central are politically conscious and they are holding members of their constituency account and we have operational institution that they know that they can be record effectively or as the case may be, they won't win the next election. These politicians will begin to take their duties as legislators serious. It's just like students. If you know that the only way out is for you to read to pass an exam. If you want to pass, you want to end that degree, definitely you must read. So if politicians keep seeing whether they can be the system, they will keep doing it. What we need is active constituency and for the political activity, the political consciousness and the constituency to increase, we must have a functional educational system, a better orientation and of course eradication of poverty. Digi, when Speaker Dimeji Bankole described Nigerians as docile back then, we didn't have social media as we have it today and the youth didn't show themselves to be that politically conscious as they are showing themselves to do today. Do you not think that Nigerians have gotten to that point where they can become more, where they can engage their leaders more? Whether poverty or not? Whether poverty or not? Well, Nigerians have been engaging their leaders in such that the percentage is not as huge as those that have been conquered or uninterested in politics and governance. For example, Sarah, they are Nigerians. Fermi Falano is a Nigerian. So we have Nigerians that have been engaging this leader. It is just unfortunate that the percentage is insignificant to effect the desired change. Yeah, I'm listening to you. Yeah, it is not that the percentage is insignificant to effect the desired change. For example, if Sarah organized a protest, those at the National Assembly have the resources to organize a greater protest in favor of their action. And you will see fellow Nigerians faking Sarah. So you now begin to wonder that don't you realize that what Sarah is saying is for your own good? What can be responsible for that? Lack of education, poverty. It will be difficult for somebody to say, oh Maureen, let's go and protest. Why? You may not have it all, but you are still better off. And you have been able to gain some education to know your left from right. And through that education, you are better informed. And as you have lived your life, you have this better orientation by your exposure and lifestyle and all that. So you are better informed to say no. You are better positioned to resist 5,000 Naira to go and protest in favor of the wrongdoing of the senators in the National Assembly. But to somebody that is not educated, 2,000 Naira is a lot. How much do some of these politicians give to some of these talks that during the election they will wish may end? Some of them are just giving drinks and this party some of money. To now show you that the orientation has been affected after the election, they will abandon them. And when another cycle of election is coming, they will go and invade them again. And these same guys will still welcome these politicians with anybody that has proper orientation behave that way. So it's close for an orientational shift, an orientational change, and perhaps maybe when the beautiful ones are born it will begin to set example. For example, if we can have 10 credible votes out of the over 100 people in the Senate that are speaking loudly, that are approaching the media, I want to see a senator leading protest against a prover for the senator to buy another bulletproof car. What happens to the one being driven by a senator? So one of our problems is we don't have the beautiful one as said in that literature. It's either they are not yet born or they already be born and they are just asleep because even 10 is a significant number in this scheme. If we just have 5, imagine us having 5 senators, 5 members saying no to the passage. Nigeria should begin to have O. Isn't it interesting that they are all united when it comes to sharing these things? All the parties are united in the house. When it comes to sharing things? Yes, because leadership in Nigeria is about pepuniary things. And sadly, sadly, the cost of winning a leg election in Nigeria is so humongous that when you eventually acquire that power, you become desperate. So anything they bring, could it be that we don't have any credible person in the National Assembly that can kick against the ball? When the legislator thinks about the amount which he used to conduct in his election, and another circle of elections is coming soon. If he wants to kind of like recoup the amount, so when he comes with this corruption and all that, he has no choice than to embrace him and don't forget that. Even after the election, there is pressure from his constituency. The chairman of the party at his state level will call him that his daughter or son is getting married. What Secretary will call him that is what I just gave back. For example, Senator Bukatua, the man that allegedly confessed that he influences his wife to give favorable judgment to lawmakers. There was a leak some time ago. However, one of his constituents was calling him that he should assist him that he wants to get married. So imagine what concerns a lawmaker which you want to get married. You are getting married for your own convenience. So you should be able to fund that. But if you are calling a lawmaker that you want to get married, now what happens if you are a youth leader or somebody of affluence in the society? The lawmaker would have been compelled, willingly or unwillingly, to part away with some money. So imagine how many people calling such lawmaker for such a favor. That has consequence a trickle down effect on lawmaking and corruption in the National Assembly itself. So if we have a situation whereby lawmakers can be bribing themselves to elect leadership of the National Assembly just among themselves. If they can be allegedly sharing dollars, now imagine if that person eventually have his way to become the Senate President of the Speaker of the House of Representatives. Just like the devil has no free gift. There is no free gift from any politician. Let's leave it there. A politician gives to you is an investment. Let's leave it there. And he's going to recoup it back if allowed a million folks. Thank you so much Dr. Moshala Deci for your time and insight this morning on the breakfast. Oh, that's my pleasure. Thanks for having me. Just listen to Dr. Moshala Deci, a political scientist. We'll be coming back with our second hot topic. Stay with us.