 Thank you so much for coming into our little ride around Detroit with the car. We will try to avoid, successfully for the 87th time, going to Canada, because it really really wants me to go there, but I'm avoiding it so far, so that's been cool. So what I wanted to start, well, so we were just talking about, you know, how much you drive, or, you know, do you have to drive around a lot? Did you have kids who played soccer? So I have three kids and they were involved with lots of different sports and problems solving groups and robotics and things, so yeah, definite road warrior, definite, used to be minivan mom and then it was SUV mom, but they're all grown and flown now, so I'm just enjoying road trips. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, we actually kind of tricked out the minivan with like a big, like, battery and everything so that, because I would just, we'd have to go to like all day for like a soccer game or something, and I'd just go there and work all day, you know, from the back of the minivan. Right. There's so much downtime in between the connectivities that you certainly can. Right, it was entertaining. Yeah, absolutely. But so why don't we talk about, you know, kind of why we're here, which is, you know, so you've been working with your team to kind of integrate Kubernetes more as an option. Why don't you tell us a little bit about, like, you know, why are you doing that? So I'm responsible for the team at Ford that is really all about developer tools and relations with them. So we manage the tools that our devs use, like GitHub and Jenkins and et cetera, et cetera. I'm a big 14 different tool tech stack for myself. Yeah, yeah. They're always the way, always the way. Exactly. But I also have teams who curate different platform products, ecosystems, to help accelerate our developers at the broader company, be able to deliver software much more quickly. So one such team is our CAS team, container as a service team. And they really have been doing a lot over the last few years in identifying, you know, how to stitch together the various tools and how to educate our developers as we onboard them and as they kind of grow in their maturity to use all of the benefits, you know, that containers and bring to the company. So do they actually work with the individual development teams about, like, kind of bringing up an application over? Or are they more like providing a framework and a set of tools so that they're more self-directed teams? So it's both, actually. So they build the platforms, right? But then they're also definitely tapped on the shoulder when there's specific needs. And we do individual consulting with product teams as needed. Right. Right. So we try to extract ourselves from that part at a certain point once we feel like their training wheels are on securely. Well, you should definitely talk to the, or take a look at Acorn, who I just interviewed, because what their mission is to try to make Kubernetes, like, more developer-friendly. And so, you know, they kind of have a format, which kind of feels more like Docker Compose, but it's actually Kubernetes, so that it's a little bit more straightforward. Oh, that's awesome. I'll definitely check him out. Yeah. Yeah. And so what, I said you had some other teams as well. Yeah. We have other platform teams that, you know, help curate web and mobile apps. Right. So we have those platforms that we stand up and manage. We have responsibilities to help the organization for quality testing. Right. And for load and performance testing. So various teams to just really help the community. One of the things I'm excited about, and I just attended the backstage session, is we're using backstage to do exactly what that whole talk was at Cubicon here. That's always cool. Right. Which is to create a place where devs can go and they can see what's available. All of the tech docs are right there. And we're getting ready to ramp that up and roll it out for all of our products and consolidate. Like, if you can think of all of the different places. How many versions of Python do we need to be running? Exactly. Yes. Exactly. And I think that's a huge step forward in my team's ability to focus on less, which will really be more impactful. Right. Yeah, when I was in consulting, one of the, like we kind of had two big offerings that we did. But one of them was, you know, platform, you know, portfolio reviews. And you know, so we'd go to, you know, big companies like Pfizer, like in a division, right? And try to do exactly what you're describing. And you know, we had the advantage of being a third party, right? So we kind of had outsider looking in, but the disadvantage of not knowing where all the secret scary stuff was, you know, underneath desks and things that were actually running production applications. Yeah, that's a big hurdle. Yeah, that's the tricky part. In fact, I'm in the middle of an audit right now. And you know, I control Jenkins, the people who decide to use what my offering is, but anybody can do whatever the heck they want. Right, right, right. And I don't have any control of that. Like, I don't have any ability to influence that. And they will. Yeah. And I don't want to stop that. Right. But I do want to educate them. So we're going to be deploying like training and all these different things to help mitigate that risk, which is daunting because, you know, I had planned to target one community and now I'm realizing, oh, I have to actually target the whole enterprise. Right, right. So. Yeah, that's, yeah. That's definitely interesting. The, I mean, you were saying particularly you're concerned about security and like not so much the security itself as much as making sure that developers are aware of security and the security risks that are kind of new and different about doing something in, you know, kind of Kubernetes. What's been your experience there? Yeah. So I've been really focused mostly, so I got this role in January. My main focus has been education and onboarding and, you know, things that are available in the marketplace that help us do that are very convenient. The community that you yourself help curate is very helpful for that, right? But what I'm realizing is that learning curve is pretty steep. And one of the keynotes this morning was talking about how just kind of over in the last year, the implication, the security vulnerabilities that have been identified on, you know, Kubernetes instances has been skyrocketing, like exponential growth. When you start, when you have a whole bunch of people start using it, that tends to be what happens. Exactly. So how do I now help also change the focus of our education to include that deepening their appreciation and understanding of security vulnerabilities so that they can, you know, develop more securely so they can know how to mitigate risks when they come out. Right. And then how can I help build visibility into where those vulnerabilities are for the company so I can help burn them down, right? Right, right. So I can help improve more. I am in making sure that they, yeah, yeah, it's one of those things that, you know, it's developers, you know, it's such a weird little world in the sense that, you know, people compare it to engineering, but in a lot of ways, it I also generally superfrew is it's much more like writing a book and you and because you rewrite, rewrite, rewrite, rewrite until it's good. And so what that means, though, is that developers have an inordinate amount of impact on what kind of literally gets built, but also like figuratively gets built. And so the more you can tell an engineer about like what, what they're trying to accomplish, the better decisions they make down in the details, right? And I think one of the things that we've definitely had as a gap for a long time, and it's finally starting to get better, is that one of those things should also be security in that, you know, you need to properly understand security as just a regular engineer, because all those little tiny decisions you make actually often have a pretty strong security impact. And it's definitely changing, you know, we're doing a lot more, you know, secure by default kind of, you know, deployments and things like that. So I think it's getting better, but I can definitely appreciate that. That's a big task. Yeah. Well, and a lot of the tools are coming along that we can utilize to scan code and identify where those are and to bring that visibility so we know what to tackle. But I think, I think it's like a cultural change impact also that you have to impart that one of our priorities is security so that it can, you know, that can be part of our DNA. And it's not something that's kind of after the fact corrected, for example. Right. It's, it's, it's funny. Like I always joke about myself that I'm a, you know, I'm a true developer. So I don't care about security. I don't care about like, you know, uptime, any of that stuff, you know, but, you know, in fact, because I teach it and I've done a lot of production stuff and in fact, it is really important to, you know, testing is ridiculously important, you know, security is ridiculously important because the impact, especially when you're doing certain kinds of software, the impact can be, you know, very actually someone's like life, right? You know, if you, if you screw up the wrong piece of software and it's like you're, you've got a much bigger burden on what you're doing. I think that a lot of engineers realize when they're, you know, typing some Python code, you know, and it's, it's got a lot of impact and nobody wants to be the front page of a newspaper. Exactly. Exactly. And the, and the reality is what are, what we build and the fact that a lot of our things are for customers to use, protecting the sanctity of that relationship with our customers is super important and, and, you know, trying to treat them like family and how you would make sure that you're taking that care and that focus. Right. Yeah. I mean, coming from Red Hat, right? Like, you know, one of the, one of the major strengths of all of our products, right, is the fact that people trust Red Hat, you know. And so the last thing you want to do is break any part of that. And it can be, it can be really difficult because, you know, when you're, you know, at least for me, right? When you're down deep, you know, building something, it can be difficult to remember the why almost, because you're like, you just want to build it, you know, you just want to get it done because it's cool. But yeah, it's, it's super hard. So do you want to talk a little bit about KBE? Like what, you know, what's your experience been with Cube by example? Yeah. So we have, you know, been using and moving toward our cloud native vision for many years before KBE was kind of a thing. Yeah. And we've used various training sources to kind of upskill. What I love most about KBE now is it's something that is community kind of curated, relevant examples. And now we can use it to point our team to instead of kind of creating our own materials or looking for whatever software training that we've licensed, right, and kind of going through and saying, what's a relevant example? It's a much easier place to go and find sources to say, here, go read this, right, here's some examples. And it's really simplified our ability to make that meaningful impact in a quick way. Right. So I will say our adoption continues to grow. And we've appreciated that and it saves us from being technical writers and deployers of education, right? Well, I mean, you know, the reason, you know, communities are good, right? It's like, you know, I keep talking about this in these interviews, right? Is that you also get lots of different perspectives, right? So, you know, you're not, you know, there is a Ford mindset, right? Like, you know there is, right? So having, you know, something that's out in public makes it so that you can, you know, whether the Ford mindset is a good one or a bad one, it's kind of doesn't matter. There's always different perspectives. So the more people you can kind of involve in a conversation about how you're approaching problems and things like that, the better a job you can usually do, you know? So I'm a big fan of, you know, kind of community delivered stuff. I think one of the things that I wonder if you experience is like in my life as, you know, I'll get students who want to say, who will say, you know, hey, can you give me a list of sources for learning about this thing, right? And, you know, do you find that having that, you know, cube by example, right? It makes it a lot easier to say, oh yeah, here it is. Yeah, exactly. Right. Exactly. That's exactly how we use it, almost like a reference, right? A way to say, oh, here, you want to learn more here. Right. Look at this and point to the specifics. And it's interesting that at Ford, the people who are most kind of community minded, I know we have geese everywhere in Michigan. They're very fun. It is fun. They're very messy, though. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But the people who have been attracted to work in a team like mine, right, where we're enabling the organization are the ones who care deeply about contributing to their greater community. And about helping them, about sharing their knowledge and experience with others that can really impact the whole of the company. So it's really an honor to work with that community. You know, it has been an honor this year, and I continue to look for ways that I can help them make their voices heard even more and be more impactful. So it's been it's been terrific. Yeah, I think I think we talked about this before. It's like one of the things that's very difficult to do is like, especially for somebody who is kind of known as an enabler of, you know, new technology or whatever is shifting from that one to one relationship that you often have to, you know, one to a thousand or one to a million, because the way you have to deliver the content is quite different. And, you know, until you get some experience with doing it, it's really, really hard. And, you know, in making those things accessible, you know, especially when you talk about, you know, rolling out tooling, making that accessible to your, to people who've never been presented it before. Again, it's like you, you and whoever it helps, you know, help build it. You have your own mindset. So you have this like this preconceived notion of how things work. And so when you look at it, it's all very intuitive. But then somebody else looks at it and they're like, why does this work this way? And then you're like, oh, yeah, you're coming in from a different view. So it's really quite difficult. Yeah, that's been interesting. When I, when some of our people, if they're having difficulties, they'll come to our team and ask specific questions like, how do I do this one thing? And I encourage my team to ask bigger questions like expand it. What is the problem you're trying to solve? Don't assume that that if you educate them on answering that one question, it's going to solve their problem because it's unlikely to write. This is just the next thing they're investigating. And it might not actually solve the bigger problems. I always encourage them to ask bigger questions. What are what are you really trying to solve? How can I help you with that instead of just kind of responding with? Here's how you do it. Yeah, one of the one of the big things I've found kind of in my career is like when somebody asks a question, you really want to think about where did they get this question from, you know, and then, and, you know, try to extrapolate from that. And then what do you know about what they're trying to do, you know, or ask, right? And make sure they're kind of aligned with, you know, doing dev advocacy. That was a big part of it is like, have you thought about maybe not fixing that bug and try this other thing over here? Because that might work a lot better for you once you understand what the problem they're trying to solve is. Exactly. But yeah, that's a that's also I think it's also particularly kind of goes against the typical engine, you know, software developers mindset. Right. You know, my default is like I want to just answer, you know, because I want to get back to whatever I was doing. Exactly. Because they're always that kind of contact switching and distractions, right? Right. My team is they monitor many different channels because we want to meet our developers where they're at. But as a result, if they're also trying to do heads down work and creating the next platform, it's a distraction, right? So so the normal response is a quick answer. But I encourage them to kind of take that deep breath and say, oh, why would someone ask me this question? Right. Yeah, it's really interesting. I remember like and I don't know how like how accurately I'm remembering the story, but supposedly Microsoft put out a management book for, you know, managing software engineers in the like 80s and 90s. And and one of their guidelines was that every engineer should have a door because every time somebody asked them a question, there was a 15 minutes that it took them to get back to wherever they were. And that if there was a door there, it could be a door that was like, you know, you're fully free to like come in or whatever. But the just that physical barrier would make the person who was going to ask the question think a little bit longer about it and sometimes solve their own problem rather than pulling the person out. And it's always kind of struck with me as kind of a really interesting, you know, it's totally true. But at the same time, you've got to find a way that you can make the people available. You know, this is this is why it really annoys me one when nobody uses office hours. You know, it's like, right? This is the best way I can give you this and still do my stuff. But the problem is that office hours are rarely lined up for when exactly I have a problem. Right. You're not your question answered in the real. Yeah. Right. That it's happening and not necessarily wait for when it's right for the experts. Right. Right. But there's ways I mean, I encourage my mentees and my team to consider, you know, like you are in charge of your schedule. And if you need heads down work, block yourself as unavailable out of office. Right. You know, turn your notification on your instant messaging to do not disturb. Right. Don't answer. Shut your outlook down. Shut your I am down. Right. So that you can do that. Heck, even unplug from the Ford network. Yeah. Right. Right. The focus is whatever you need to do to focus. Yeah. And make it known like through whatever kind of notification that you have at your fingertips to say, you know, I'm working on this. I'll be available at 12 or 12 30 or whatever the, you know, whatever you're kind of coming up for air. And that that sometimes works. But usually what that does is it says, oh, he's not available. Let me go to this person and they end up asking the same question around to 10 different people. And now because the expert didn't have the answer. Oh, yeah. That's true. That's true. And that's that's kind of a time suck also. Right. How can we combat that? It's been interesting since we were all virtual. Well, one of the things that I've kind of really missed about, you know, like there's a lot of old school internet people. Right. And there were a lot of like social norms that were really important. And it's really funny. I had never heard this until a couple of years ago, but they called it they call it now Endless September because it used to be in the early days of the Internet. Every September, you got a whole brand new set of users of the Internet because they went to college. And so you could train them in all the like social norms. And I even remember doing this like emailed training thing that somebody had built, you know, and I just kind of signed up for it and I learned about how to use the Internet. Right. And but one of the things that was huge about IRC, right, the Internet Relay Chat is that you could put you could put whatever you wanted out there as like a question or whatever. And there was no expectation that the person on the other end would immediately respond. Right. And what's changed, I think, because of like text messaging primarily, you know, is now we have this expectation in things like Slack or, you know, all these other tools that if you're there, you will instantly respond. Right. And it's really it's really unfortunate. I think that we've lost a lot of these, you know, original kind of norms. You know, one of my other ones is, you know, email. You always used to reply below the original one. And the reason was, and I never knew this actually until I went to Red Hat, was because that way, if you're just getting to the thread, you can read it in order. Oh, yeah. Instead of having to like try to figure out how to read it up. Yeah, I always go to the bottom of the message and then read up. Right. But if you actually reply on the bottom of the message. Yeah. And it's one of the things that really annoys me about Outlook on the web, you can't even do it. Right. Yeah, I was like, I can't do an inline response at all. So, yeah, we've kind of it's funny. I just think it's kind of funny that we're kind of coming somewhat full circle on a bunch of stuff that we knew a long time ago, you know, but have have kind of faded out of, you know, the culture, essentially. Absolutely. I think that's that's so true. And it's funny because people who are younger than me don't remember. But I remember the when I first started at Ford, the secretaries would print the executive's emails. Oh, yeah. Because they didn't know how to check their email and respond. And then they would they would dictate what the response was. And then the secretary would go in and respond to the email. And I just remember thinking because I had used email in college, right? It, you know, we were I was the early days of the interview. Right. My school was on BitNet. So, yeah, that was so interesting to see that divide. But but it's right. It's kind of like it used to be memos. And then it was emails. And now it's instant messages and now with the notifications that you expect likes and smiles and right. And that kind of, you know, adrenaline or what is it? Yeah, I know what you mean. So serotonin, serotonin bump, serotonin bump, right? That you are, you're constantly watching these channels to see, did I get a response? Am I, you know, am I getting that kind of right? And it's flipped. It's flipped kind of what we hold as important. And really what it's doing is this creating way more distraction, way more inefficiency and actually getting solid work done. So there will be, you know, that will be kind of the next thing of how do we find the balance? Really, you know, it's it's like everything else, right? We get all these pendulum swings, you know, back and forth. And, you know, periodically, you know, like they eventually it comes, you know, comes a little bit back, you know, it's one of the things I've seen so many times now in my like, you know, technical career of just, you know, various technologies, you know, swinging all the way to one side and then all the way back to the other. So, yeah, no, I totally agree with you. And what I what I suspect is, right, there's some happy medium in there that, you know, we haven't discovered yet, you know, but I'm not necessarily saying we should go back to the old way, just that, you know, there were definitely some advantages. So, yeah, so how are you enjoying CubeCon? So it's been pretty good so far. I got here for the keynotes this morning and I attended two sessions so far and I'm getting value out of those. So this is my first CubeCon event. I'm so excited that Detroit is hosting it. Like, I don't think that the tech world understands what a big technology base we have in Michigan and the kind of evolution of the auto manufacturers being based here with all of that kind of foundational core engineering and manufacturing is like turning all into tech skills now. So to be able to showcase my beloved Detroit with the tech conference and invite people from all over the world to it is exciting. And then in Michigan itself, we're a board member on the Michigan Council of Women in Technology. Oh, yeah. And what we are trying to do is make Michigan be the number one place for women in tech. Oh, so we do all different kind of programs for K through 12. We do college student mentoring. We have a scholarship program. We have a kind of re-entering your career, maybe up in the tech field. Right. We have, you know, early career development, mid-career and executive development. My wife is experiencing that right now. She just took her first job in forever earlier this year. Yeah. So yeah, it's it's been a learning curve. Yeah. It's been really interesting because I'm like, no, of course, you don't do that. And, you know, because I don't realize how right how much I've had for my 25 years of experience. It's normal. But when you're first coming back into the workforce like that, there's all those little things you need to learn. Right. And how much the social change has been as well. And so that's cool. So what, you know, have you have you launched any programs yet? Or is it? Oh, yeah, this has been an organization that's been around. I think this is our 24th year. Oh, wow. OK. I've been involved for 10 years. And this is my first year in a leadership position for it. I'm just, you know, certainly I have two daughters and a son. And, you know, to my all three are going to be engineers. So I'm just it's a passion that I have to show that this is a very lucrative and rewarding career path that often girls are disheartened to pay attention to. So I'd love to be part of that community to help foster that and grow and develop. And I mentor a ton of people. Whoever asked me because there's so few women in leadership right in, you know, tech companies and tech positions. So anytime someone asked me, yeah, should be my mentor. Absolutely. I want to give them a role model to show that you can do this, like persevere through the stumbling that you have as your kind of learning things. And so whenever conversations like this come up, I bring this up a lot. But there was an article in Cosmopolitan Magazine in 1979 about why women should become programmers and how it was just like running a dinner party. And I think it's so interesting, right? Because in a lot of ways it's 100 percent right on, right? It's like you basically have to give, you know, when you want to be a programmer, it means you give very detailed instructions, right? And so you got to think about all the little details, like, is, you know, you got to make sure you seat this person next to that person, but not that other person because they don't like each other, right? Or they used to date, right? Or something, you know, but then you also have to plan all the recipes and figure out, make sure the timing is right, you know? And it was such a great article. And, you know, and the fact that it was in Cosmopolitan Magazine, right? It was also particularly interesting. And, you know, and then what happened, right? So I definitely agree with you. You know, I kind of say, you know, part of the reason I joined Boston University is to try to make it so that less people who look like me are in my field or there's more people who don't look like me in my field. Yeah, it's hard to be the only one in a room, right? And that's been the majority of my career. There's, you know, I remember being on a team, there were six women and 84 men, right? So we created our little women's groups so we could talk and things like that. Right. So it's hard to be in that situation. But Ford's been great. They've been a great company to work for. And I've always felt respected and, you know, able to make advancements when I needed to. Yeah, I remember we were at a company that was like 30 or 40 people. So not, I mean, not it was big, but it had very, very few women. But we had inordinately large bathrooms. And I still so I became really good friends with one of the women. And she was like, yeah, we all kind of had this collective angry moment where we hired such and such. And that meant we didn't all have our individual stalls anymore. I was like, oh, that's such a weird experience. It's so funny that there are so few that they each have their own style. But it wasn't an inordinately large bathroom. So it was so it was a little bit better. But yeah, it was it was not a great ratio. We had the added difficulty of it was also consulting. And so, you know, they're 10, at least in my experience, there tends to be less women in consulting because it's also yeah, insanity. Yeah, there's a lot of travel involved. I know my husband has been a road warrior for the last few years. And I'm so grateful he was more technical when my kids were young and around. So he was home for all of the things. And now that they're grown and flown, he's able to travel. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, my wife actually really appreciated when I because I used to travel as a consultant, I was mostly a fixer. So it'd be like on Monday, I found out what I was supposed to be on Tuesday. And I know, but I only be gone for like maybe two or three days. So in some ways, I didn't travel that much. Like I wasn't like on the road all the time. But what she really liked was I switched to being like more like developer advocacy. I had a well planned and I'd be gone for like a week or a week and a half and so they could have a new schedule, right? You know, rather than me just kind of, you know, disappearing and then being back again. So that was always that was a really interesting moment for me. You know, on the flip side, she, you know, we often joke that she married a consultant. And so periodically she's like, don't you have like a conference or something to go to? Like, could you go away for? Oh, yeah, I've had that conversation, too. Yeah, I have had that conversation, too. Like, we need a little time apart. Why don't you travel in again? Right. My it's funny, too, because my parents have spent a significant amount of their time while they've been married, like a part, because they both work in academia. And so and, you know, basically, you go where the job is, right? And so, you know, they were bouncing around a little bit. And yeah, I can't believe how much I feel like it's it in my head, right? It's like normal because it was my parents, right? But then I kind of look at it from like the outside and I'm like, oh, no, that's really not normal. That's really unusual. Yeah, that is very unique. Yeah, that's very unique. Is that what we turn left again? I missed my turn. So I'm now negotiating with the GPS about what to do next. So we have an orange barrel season and then we have winter. Yeah, it's funny. In Boston, we call it construction season in winter. Yeah, yeah. But I like the one of the other locals with the video crew was saying it's the the state flower of Michigan. It's the orange barrel. I was like, that is awesome. That's so funny. That's so funny. But you know, you want to have good roads for, you know, we don't have mass transit, right? Whether we're or not, I don't. Yeah, although I did drive the People Mover. Oh, yeah. So that was fun because like when I when I first saw it, because there's just a sign in the hotel that says, you know, People Mover this way. And I like asked one of the employees. I was like, so where and what is a People Mover? And then she goes back to me. She goes, well, it's this thing that moves people. Like, thanks, thanks. I suppose I deserve that. But it was hilarious. But yeah, but I did finally take it. It's kind of like the Disney Monorail. So yeah, you feel like you're going to the Magic Kingdom and then you get there and you're like, oh, where's the castle? Right, right. Yeah, my my dad used to work at Disney. And so I've actually been on the Disney Monorail a number of times because when my dad had to work and my brother and I would spend summers with him, he would just drop us off at Disney for like the day. You know, we would just wander around Disney. It sounds like a pretty awesome child. Yeah, it was pretty cool. And it's funny. It's like, you know, my wife always wants to take our kids to Disney. I'm like, why don't we go there? It's so boring. I'm a little jaded. Yeah, you've been there too much. Yeah, exactly. But it was pretty cool. That's cool. So we're just about time. You want to kind of wrap it up? And yeah, so I just want to encourage if you're listening today to recognize that Ford has a lot to offer for people who want to move in their technical advancements and their skills. We invest in our people and we have a lot of very interesting jobs posted on careers.ford.com. So check it out and follow me on LinkedIn or connect with me on LinkedIn. I might be able to put you in touch with the people who have the skills that you're interested in. Well, and I think it's interesting to point out, right? Like Ford, like many other company, you know, manufacturing companies, et cetera, like you're doing a ridiculous amount of software, you know, like, you know, I don't think it occurs to people like how much software that goes into both the creation of a car, right? But then on top of it, actually making this car go, right? And in some ways, it's really interesting software because it's unusual, right? And so I definitely would think it'd be a lot of fun to work on it like a nav system, you know? So, well, thanks so much again for coming. We really appreciate it. And, you know, we'll see you again at the panel in a few minutes. Yeah, it's my pleasure. Thank you for having me.