 we are debating whether or not we should rip down Confederate statues and we are starting right now Ladies and gentlemen Thrilled to have you here for this epic debate. So this is going to be an interesting one folks We've never debated this topic before and want to let you know by the way If it's your first time here consider hitting that subscribe button as we have many more debates to come So for example, we are very excited as there are a couple of I'm not exaggerating folks Yeah, we're like I can't announce them quite yet We're like on the cusp of it to where I could announce it and these debates are honestly going to be epic like Groundshaking one thing. I'm noticing forgive me folks. I Am noticing huge lag. So what we might have to do worst-case scenario. Oh, okay. I think it's straightening out. Oh So glad basically what we are going to do is as I mentioned. Oh You know what that lag is just it's an icky lag So let me see if we're gonna be okay with this because if the lag is really bad We might have to try something we might have to try changing things up, but so far it's kind of like it's right on the cusp Okay, so let me folks Introduce who we have on tonight as this is gonna be a lot of fun first. We have our dearest co-mod Hunter Bailey this is going to be a lot of fun as I'm basically in a way You could say getting Hunter back into the swing of things you guys probably remember Hunter has been on before He is a fair and neutral Neutral moderator and so kind of just getting him into the swing of things again We are very excited to have him join us and he will be hopefully maybe doing one or two streams a week as a Moderator as we have honestly a yeah, it's a good problem to have we have a huge influx of people requesting a debate right now, which is exciting and it's like man We are pumped about all these topics and they have these and so that's why we just really appreciate Hunter being here to party and help mod now want to let you know this topic tonight It's controversial folks. This ain't your grandma's debate channel hunter Okay, it's not what we're going to debate is whether or not the Confederates that choose ought to be torn down Raging atheists who you see on your left will be arguing. Yes And he will be going first with a 10-minute opening statement Next CJ Cox who you see on your right on the screen will be going with his 10-minute opening statement And then immediately after that we'll go into open conversation So just a couple of quick housekeeping things up front If you have a question for the question and answer at the end feel free to fire it into the old live chat And if you tag me with at modern day debate makes it easier for me to be sure I get every single question in that list Super chats also an option and you can ask a question or make a comment with a super chat And also doing a super chat will push your question or comment at the top of the list during the q&a So very exciting overtly validated. Thanks for your super chat by the way So we're going to jump into those pretty quick We're going to maybe try to do some of those super chats between sections two by the way And then if the studio is flashing red or green a red flash is basically a new super chat And then green is a new subscriber. So that's why you'll see that and then you'll see that written out on the screen So i'm going to kick it over to our dearest friend Hunter Bailey to get us rocking and rolling and he'll kind of get the actual debate going so again Thanks all three of you gentlemen for being here and hunter who is by the way from sentinel apologetics The floor is all yours hunter Thanks, man. Appreciate it. Well, thanks guys for coming and thanks everybody for joining us. I'm happy to be back You know, definitely will probably see me more on here. So looking forward to it So what we're going to have is we're going to have 10 minute openings for each uh person For each debater and then after that we're going to have an open conversation for about maybe 45 to 60 minutes Depending on how the conversation goes and then after that we're going to have the q&a so make sure again to Fill out those super chats and send them on in because they will move right to the front of our list and then You know afterwards we'll try to get to the regular questions as much as we can. Okay So raging atheists you are the affirmative. So you're going to go first and whenever you're ready Once you're done, you can either tell me that you're done or once the 10 minutes is up I'll let you know and then after that jay, it'll be your turn the floor is yours awesome, thank you so When in the course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bonds which have connected them with another And to assume the separate and equal station to which the Laws of nature end of nature's god entitle them a decent respect to the opinions of man Mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation Which is what i am doing tonight right now Declaring that it is time time to separate the modern america from the america before And put the confederacy and put the confederacy and the dustbins of history where it belongs We hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal That they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights that among these are life liberty in the pursuit of happiness These are the founding ideals of our nation Ideals that still strut that we still strive toward but have never fully achieved We see this today as millions of people pour into the streets with three simple but powerful words black lives matter A protest against the white supremacy that has dominated this nation well before this nation itself was ever conceived And i am here tonight declaring that now is the time to end that legacy of white supremacy Such a long vile history that encompasses more than just statues That are up for discussion tonight The mid-atlantic slave trade began in the 1400s after the americas were discovered There weren't enough settlers to produce the labor intensive crash crops the america supplied in abundance sugarcane tobacco and cotton Since europe has long outlawed making christian slaves the settlers try to make native americans their slaves But the natives were dying and staggering numbers as a result of the new diseases brought by the europeans And those that weren't dying were able to resist successfully So europe turned to africa a country that Had several slave systems for hundreds of years already Nothing like the slavery here remind you more like indentured servitude But when the europeans came offering manufactured goods weapons and rum Chieftains were quick to sell their slaves These christian settlers needed to justify to themselves the taking and using of human as property So they invented white supremacy Declaring black peoples to be less than human or three fifths human according to the three fifths compromise of 17 1887 This compromise made an official policy that blacks were inferior to whites Slaves could not vote so had no say in their place in society They were forbidden to learn the of reading and writing And they were not allowed to marry outside of their race congress outlawed the african slave trade in 1808, but not slavery itself By 1860 white supremacy was the dominating ideology as 90 percent of white americans thought they were superior to black peoples 90 percent Also by 1860 and this is a very important number enslaved africans were 13 percent of the total u.s population And then came the civil war And many will rightfully point out that lincoln never wanted to end slavery In 1858 lincoln said i am not nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races The lost cause narrative would use this quote and many others like it to whitewash the history of the war to not be about slavery at all But states writes But this is just a narrative propaganda to keep white supremacy alive and it was very successful But the truth is the war was about slavery Every single state that succeeded from the union listed slavery as its primary reason for leaving the union The north one the south lost and in 1865 the 13th amendment made slavery illegal Reconstruction kept the south under northern rule all confederate statues were taken down And we saw some strides towards equality for newly emancipated african americans But lincoln's main priority after the war wasn't all the people he had just freed It was keeping the union together So he pardoned all of the confederates and sent them home Lincoln would also veto any legislation that would come before him outlawing slavery altogether abraham lincoln allowed white supremacy to live Reconstruction ends in the mid 1870s taking with it the northern soldiers and reconciliation begins The south has control has control of the south again and those pardoned confederates began to take office But even before that white supremacy had already risen again When in 1866 a former confederate general creates the klu Klux Klan And begins a reign of terror upon emancipated blacks The civil war had merely been a band-aid applied to a shotgun wound to the head And as the former confederates began to take office during reconciliation Northern and southern politicians began to make concessions most often at the expense of black citizens Most notably the passing of the gem crow laws Laws designed to keep black americans as less human than whites and separated It is during this time that we see most of these statues being erected Monuments to the white supremacy that was never truly defeated a period of terror ensues a period where public lynchings of black people became common As well as rape and cold-blooded murder It was also during this time when the lost cause narrative would take off and for 160 years now It has kept the confederacy and its white supremacy alive The main tenet of this narrative that the south was fighting for states rights not slavery And that slaves had great working conditions were loyal to their masters and had even fought for the confederacy For the confederacy It also whitewashed the histories and glorified leaders like jefferson davison jefferson davis and robert e lee So the vast majority of these monuments were erected during this era an era of pain and heartache The era of gem crow And it wouldn't be until the fifties with the ruling of brown versus the board of education That this era would begin to end and the civil rights movement took shape But it was after that ruling as black people were once again demanding their equality That southern states would again begin to erect these monuments And use symbols of white supremacy That looked down on black peoples Pretty much telling them that they should know their place This is also the time that we would see southern capitals raising the rebel flag high on their flag poles We should not be immortalizing the defenders of white supremacy And that is what these monuments do exactly And if governments aren't going to do the moral thing here It's up to the people In the second decade of the 21st century asking black americans or anyone else for that matter to drive by public property Property they partly own occupied by monuments or symbols of men who fought to destroy the country and deny that person's humanity is perverse These monuments have been screaming at black americans for decades in some areas as long as 150 years And what they scream is a lost cause narrative of white supremacy and racial difference It is not only time to remove these statues But end the myth of white supremacy With that i'll concede the rest of my time Thanks so much rage. I'm gonna kick it back over to hunter But did want to mention as we're going to read super chats when we can we'll try to read them between segments And so overtly validated. Thanks for your super chat said. I know it's a bit on the nose But if we should keep confederate statues should we also erect statues of former ussr leaders like gorbachev I think that might be for cj cox if cj will give you like a separate little Time clip here before your actual opening if you want to respond to that all right, uh, definitely so The question basically was saying we should put up the statues of former communist leaders that have been taken down Is that correct? I think so All right, well, there's a couple things I would say on that for sure. Um, the first thing is that Had I been around in russia at the time Um, I would certainly be one and this may come as somewhat of a surprise But to actually defend keeping up a statue like Lenin statue For the exact same reason that I would defend keeping up the statues that we have today Which I'll get a little bit more into of course, but basically is that um We preserve history and understand things from a lens historically that is different than the lens that we would understand Things if they were happening in the present And we see that perfectly with plenty of things like all the roman monuments and egyptian monuments and so on and so forth Um I don't think there's any need to put up something that's already been torn down And likewise when it comes to all the statues that have been taken down already in the in the former confederate states Uh, there's no necessity to put them back up Um, just like there would be no necessity for me to say let's build a new one now What i'm talking about is the statues already being there and addressing it Um as an issue that's you know with the statue being built hundreds of years ago or tens of years ago Whatever it happens to be, um, not necessarily building or rebuilding new ones. You know what I mean Gotcha Thanks so much and i'll kick it back over to our dearest guest moderator hunter bailey By the way hunter can I tell I mean I don't want to tell so I'll let you tell but I mean there's some big news For those of you who remember hunter He has some big news that I am so excited. I just learned about it like 20 minutes ago So hopefully you're pumped hunter too or uh, I should say hopefully you're equally pumped everyone listening out there to hear hunter's great news go ahead hunter well Put me on the spot there, but over during the whole corona Pandemic thing I got married. So there's the big news. Yay for me. All right. Cool. Now we can move on. Okay, so Thanks james for that Put me on the spot. Okay. All right. So j you got 10 minutes when you're ready. You can begin Alrighty, thank you and thank you for hosting me in this debate. Um, thank you also to rage for uh debating me here today So I have a few things that I want to address that I think are Uh, general rules that we should understand before we actually go into the debate um, which are Basically the the the basic foundations of what I'm going to present here for I'm not necessarily wording it the right way But let me just kind of go right into it. So the first thing that we need to understand is that um, even though we may understand morality is black and white and regardless of you know, whether philosophically you actually understand Morality is absolute. Of course people in their day-to-day lives tend to live as if morality is black and white Um, and regardless of that we do tend to understand that human beings themselves are rather gray That civilization and culture itself is rather gray that a lot of times things are considered to be Acceptable almost universally that today we might be sickened by Um, and of course this is something that happens time and time and time again um A big portion of the reason for this is because people, you know, they have cultural beliefs that are passed on from generation to generation They have ideas that are passed on to them through certain ethnic fights So, you know, like for example the irish versus the english up in the united kingdom, right? That's something that went back and forth for long periods of time because of the history of warfare So on and so forth the point being that we can see through the lens of history looking back in the past The things are actually a lot more complicated than people like to make them out to be for example um, both the modern historian and the lost cause Historian would actually make the same mistake into just wrapping everything up in my opinion into one Word essentially or term in the case of the lost cause narrative and the lost cause narrative They say it states rights. This is partially true in the uh narrative of the modern historian. They would say it's strictly slavery This is also largely true. Um, the fact of the matter is warfare and once again people and ideology and culture and things of this nature Are incredibly complicated for example, let's say hypothetically speaking There was a lot of talk whether it was legitimate or not. Let's just pretend it was for a minute There was a lot of talk back in 2012 With people like alex jones the governor of texas, which I believe was rick perry if i'm not mistaken And numerous other people in texas saying, you know, if we ever have to deal with something like hillary clinton or people taking our guns and stuff like that We'd succeed hypothetically. Let's say that happened, right? in a hundred years past And a politician comes up and says well this fight was about Gun rights. Is he wrong? No, of course not that is the straw that broke the camel's back That would eventually lead to the secession if that had led to a secession However, if somebody else came across and said it was about preservation of the bill of rights, would he be telling a lot? No, because the second amendment is actually something that is listed in our Uh, you know 10 amendments of the constitution Uh furthermore if somebody said well an increasing government bureaucracy over hundreds of years eventually just had a lot of texas Disassociated with the united states government that would also be accurate, right? Even though politically speaking that's not really going to be on the rhetoric list for most people But that's the reason a lot of the individuals would be fighting so on and so forth And there's numerous other reasons that people could list to say well, this is why they wanted to fight This is why they wanted to secede so on and so forth That's of course a hypothetical but the same thing is true if we go back to real life looking at the confederacy Um, for example, we had seven states initially seceding from the united states of america Uh, these seven states obviously were just not having the election of abraham lincoln And that was essentially where they drew the line and there are two things that are simultaneously true here in this situation The first thing is that What they thought would be taken away from them was what they considered their right to slavery The second thing is they believed that as individual states They did not have uh, the government did not have the authority to actually push that on them And in fact a lot of people back then both north and south were more Um associated and had more of a kinship with their state than they actually did With the nation as a whole it's actually according to a lot of historians the civil war that made americans both north and south Really have a solid sense of patriotism and being one nation rather than you know, the these individuals split up states um After that it occurred Uh, abraham lincoln decides he wants to raise an army because he wants to preserve the union And then for other states decided to secede and interestingly enough one of the states that decided to secede happens to be virginia And the virginia legislature though it did also list slavery Uh makes very clear that they thought it was unethical for the president of the united states to actually raise an army Against who they considered to be fellow americans for enacting what they considered to be a sacred human right of secession Which of course is a pretty interesting philosophical question when you consider the fact that the united states of america itself Was actually a secessionist movement that broke away from a larger group Um for reasons that if we're being completely honest and I say this is a patriot who loves my country are relatively trivial Honestly, like you know king george the third was not adolf hitler by any stretch of the imagination Right and yet we tend to see these people in a light that actually you know Justifies their cause and glorifies them and all this other kind of stuff And of course i'm not endorsing any sort of hero worship nor am I saying that George washington is a hundred percent the more of a pool in a room of robert lee But what I am saying is that when you look at both of these situations, they are very similar in the cases of they are Traders against either the crown or the government of the united states for reasons that are varied and incredibly complicated Um that a lot of people thought was incredibly justified and that in the end the victors ended up writing the general history on Um that doesn't mean that the victors are necessarily wrong Of course, the civil war is the reason why the african-american is freed in the in modern america. That's absolutely a fact That doesn't mean that's the reason it necessarily started. In fact, we all know the emancipation proclamation was designed until 1863 Um that doesn't mean that the people who fought in it individually were people who we would consider to be contemptible In fact, there's many people who were confederate generals who you could argue had a more enlightened view of african people Then abraham Lincoln himself I think one of the best examples is uh thomas stonewall jackson Who actually went as far as to say that you know, of course he he and robert lee even actually endorsed the idea that black people Could fight in the confederate army as a way to earn their freedom um But on top of that stonewall even would go a little bit farther and would teach them how to read and write for the purposes Of reading the bible and of course you can say what you want about the apologetic nature of that But the point is as was pointed out by rage in his opening statement That was not something that was culturally acceptable and yet Uh stonewall jackson decided that's something that he that he should do He thought that it was his christian duty to teach these people Even though the general culture at the time did not want that to occur um We can say what we want about white man's burden right 150 years knowing that that's an incredibly stupid idea But at the time That's a lot more enlightened than what a lot of other people are thinking for example things like oh Well, these are just basically animals and we can treat them however we want and so on and so forth Right. So understanding it in that context robert lee's views on racism are actually significantly more enlightened than a lot of other people A lot of whom would be fighting for the north Uh, you this is this grant of course owned a slave and and the other big thing we need to understand here Is if we start tearing down Some historical monuments and some historical figures and their reputations and things like that We end up tearing down Virtually all of them. We've actually seen you know used to be in 2015 2017 things like that This was a hypothetical that we were arguing about Now we have seen whether it's the 54th massachusetts regiment Which was an entirely black regiment of union soldiers by the way their monument was vandalized the lincoln memorials been consistently vandalized over the years People call for the taking down of george washington statues of thomas jefferson statues of gondy statues for crying out loud in india Which to be fair if we're going to be consistent Gondy was an anti-semite gondy was relatively sexist gondy did have A little bit of a perverted nature about him and then if we decide we're going to start tearing down historical figures Let's just look at things. We know crazy horse for example was an adulterer He did not spare prisoners of war He gave false prophecies, which i'm sure Rage as an atheist that would be something to kind of annoys you people being essentially religious charlatans speaking of religious charlatans According to martin luther king jr. Martin luther king jr. Was not a christian. He did not affirm Things like the resurrection and things of that nature right so in other words He used his pulpit for political and social and status reasons Fully understanding that he did not believe the things that he was preaching. He was also a serial adulterer There are numerous people who have accused him and i'm not necessarily saying this is or is not the case But to be fair the accusations are exactly what people have against trump They're exactly what people have against jefferson and other such figures people want to bring down None of whom i'm necessarily condemning or endorsing. I'm just painting a picture for you guys People have accused him of looking upon One of his friends raping somebody else and being a serial sex addict and have plagiarizing in his doctor Old statement and so on and so forth. Are we going to tear down him now? Are we going to tear down mouth of x because he was for a very long period of time very violent A racial supremacist a segregationist so on and so forth right said things like and i quote You're not equal to the white man. You're better than the white man. That's right. I said it better than the white man Right. Are we going to tear him down now? Are we going to tear down to cumsa? Because he was a racist because he was a religious zealot because he was an autocrat who did not actually allow any sort of freedom of religion and was Incredibly racist actually towards white people in his prophet's town back in the 1800s so on and so forth um You know julia cesar of course with the conquests and lincoln had what many people have termed a concentration camp and So on and so forth who can go on and on or are we going to understand looking at these people through a historical lens The things are relatively complicated And that a lot of people did a lot of things that are relatively admirable While also doing a lot of things that are significantly unadmirable Um in the case of stonewall jackson roberty lead. They were great generals They just had great military strategy people have thought that that was something that was kind of cool Of course the rebel spirit Fine america All right, sorry. I'll just stop there Okay, great. So next what we have is the Conversation just an open conversation between you two and if I have to step in just to separate you two I will put you in time out. Um, but we're gonna have an open conversation between the two about your opening statements And again for people who are watching if you have a question Go ahead and put it in a super chat and set it with at modern day debate So that we can put you at the front of the list for the questions at the end So that we can actually get to know people's feedback or the questions you have Also in your question if you can please add to who the question you want it to be Whether it be to the raging atheists or if you want it to be the jay cox or if you want it to be the both So that we know who to exactly ask them to so whenever you guys are ready Uh ranging atheists jay cox is y'all's floor Enjoy. So sorry one last quick announcement. Uh, thanks for this is usually we don't mention this But I did want to mention our only so anybody who's new to the channel the only rule that we have that's like strict Where we bring the hammer down with like zero warnings is obviously no hate speech So if I see something that looks like that it's like you're not gonna get a warning And I always it's not actually it's actually like it's probably like Maybe a tenth of a percentage point of people that show up in chat say something so like we're pretty lenient but I did see one today, and I saw one in the last stream I you know, I know you guys are you rear your little heads of your kermit the frog profile pictures and stuff like that Is that we're like pretty easy going but when you know when you have hate speeches like that's the thing We're not going to give you a warning for If you are harassing somebody We'll and it's not hate speech like so you're just like oh so and so is a pervert or whatever You know we'll be like hey, can you lighten up you know take it easy? Like if you're targeting an individual like you know, oh, we'll give you a warning You know because we want everybody to enjoy their time in the chat But like I said hate speech is the one thing where it's like no no warnings for that one So thanks gentlemen the floor is all yours as hunter said Awesome. So like there was a lot there in your opening And I want to try to get to all of it but it seemed like the main gist of your argument here is You know, we we're not tearing down statues of Of Stalin or where is it gonna stop? Are we gonna are we gonna tear down statues of Washington style all of these other people? and We're not talking about those for say a person like George Washington We make monuments to him despite his sin not based upon it So we believe in the power of memorials to say something about who we are we have memorials to 9 11 As we should but we would be horrified if someone were to put up a memorial to Osama bin Laden for what he did in 9 11 Arguably the most influential person of the 20th century as hitler And yet the world would be rightfully outraged if they were erecting statues of hitler and berlin We're talking about the enslavement of human beings and constant reminders that those freed slaves now their descendants have to look at Every single day that's that's the issue of the topic here. It's not other statues. It's not it's not where do we go beyond that? It's it's the confederacy statues now these confederates were traitors to the nation You mentioned succession succession was ruled unconstitution and unconstitutional by the united states supreme court And while I agree it's a good philosophical argument to argue about that in reference to to The revolution the supreme court did rule on it and And it seems to me that that it's not really a good argument because we're not even really talking about the succession We're talking about the people that fought to maintain the white supremacy of the south and to continue owning and brutalizing human beings Well, I I think there's a few things to be commented on upon that I think I think the first thing is we need to understand Not only where these sorts of things lead, but also the hypocrisy in some of these things That's which is part of the reason I mentioned other historical figures. Um, quite frankly I think you could make a serious argument that stonewall jackson had a more enlightened view of race than malchamex And malchamex is i'm not advocating by the way that we start tearing down anything from alchamex either What i'm saying though is that people need to be understood within their historical context For example in the in the case of virginia as a whole Right, so not even just stonewall and robarty lee and james long tree Who was in the army in northern virginia and so on and so forth, but just the state of virginia as a whole Their primary concern upon actually deciding we're going to secede Was not actually Anything that had to do with slavery or even government overreach It wasn't even necessarily states rights what they were actually upset about was the idea that lincoln was going to raise up an army And invade What they considered to be their fellow countrymen and of course like i said most people back at that time north or south It really doesn't matter they were very tribalistic in the sense that it was really your state that you identified with It really wasn't the nation you identified being somebody from ohio somebody from virginia so so on and so forth, right? um stonewall jackson and robarty lee were doing basically What we would expect of any good soldier in fighting for what they considered to be their home without any sort of political bias one way or another Their home itself was succeeding because they felt that the use of violent force to keep the nation together Was not justified which is of course an argument of itself And i think with those things being in context You know you start to see that this is not the black and white issue that people make it out to be lost cause or modern And then i agree with you that the lost cause narrative is false But there is some truth to it in the sense that not all of these people were evil or just wanting to you know go about the Go about oppressing black people and stuff like that right a lot of times it was Like i said in the case of thomas uh, not thomas. Sorry. Yeah, it is thomas. Sorry thomas jackson um You know wanting to defend what he considered to be his homeland from an invader I mean that's we would consider that to be pretty admirable in most people, right? Well, sure. Um, but there's for one there's a there's a huge difference between stone stone wall jackson and Malcolm x. Um, Malcolm x didn't own human beings, right? Be that as it may though, Malcolm x was quite hateful. I mean, right? Yeah, I mean It is earlier today sure, but but he didn't own human beings So there that's a that's a huge difference there Also, you are you are giving a lost cause narrative here. You're you're You're saying like, you know, oh Virginia for instance wanted to Didn't think that it was constitutional for Lincoln to raise an army although Lincoln did have that power He he had those war powers just like the modern presidents do But yet the moment they succeeded from the union, they were no longer part of the union So that argument is moot and when it comes to Virginia, Virginia had the most slaves in the union And in their declaration of succession the primary reason was slavery. It wasn't the other thing. It was slavery Well, the the legislature actually said when they voted to secede that their primary reason for seceding it was april 11th I believe of 1861 they said that they did not believe it was justified for Lincoln to raise that army now Of course, like I said, we can argue about whether or not it is justified. I mean, of course, they think that when they have the most slaves well, I mean That's honestly kind of irrelevant when you consider the historical situation I mean, let's think about this. Maryland had a bunch of slaves West Virginia had a bunch of slaves. Missouri had a bunch of slaves. Kentucky had a bunch of slaves He's in the union. So I mean the issue was even the southern states Lincoln wasn't trying to take the Southern states right to slavery. He was trying to stop slavery from advancing into the western territories That was the issue that was why the south succeeded because they they thought well If Lincoln's going to do it over there, he's going to do it over here. So they became traders to the country Right, but I mean being a trader is I mean, that's a term that is honestly Very loaded depending on what side you're on. George Washington is a trader, right? I mean, that's a that's a matter of historical fact Well, I mean in fact, he was even a member of the British army, right? So those are two different different things. The revolution was about taxation without representation Not the owning of human beings and those founding fathers quite a few of them Revolution them Actually wrestled with the the moral dilemma of slavery Thomas Jefferson being one of them when he wrote his declaration of independence So this was always a moral issue. You know, you talk about looking back with the modern lens With our modern lens and that's really only the only way we can do it That pretty much the entire world has come to the moral conclusion that slavery was wrong But even back then you had great pioneers looking through a moral lens and seeing slavery to be wrong And to be fair, I mean you should look at some of the some of the writings of a lot of these confederate leaders Some of it were of those confederate leaders. Like I said, I pointed out the stone wall Jackson Um went against what everybody said about what uh, African-Americans were or I guess at that time They wouldn't really be considered African-American. Well sure, but then he fought to defend white supremacy. He fought to defend virginia That there's a there's a very fundamental difference Um, and this is the thing that this is the problem with looking back at history through a modern lens, right? Stonewall Jackson was not interested in and to be fair the majority of soldiers I think this can be stated as a rule We're not interested in the preservation of the institution of white supremacy or even of slavery The vast majority of soldiers didn't have enough money to buy a slave In fact, we could argue that they might have be may have become slaves 20 30 years in the future had the confederacy one That's obviously a point of debate But you know, there was certainly people like the vice president of the confederacy, for example, who had suggested as much, right? Um, they were fighting because of what they perceived as and you can you can say that you don't believe in it or do believe in it They what they perceived as an invasion on their homeland where they grew up, right? And obviously it turns out that their homeland was doing some relatively evil things That's perfectly fair But a lot of people's homelands were doing evil things and yet the soldiers themselves were sitting there defending Their homeland they weren't defending the politicians. Well, in fact, I would say it's a relatively elitist narrative in my opinion And I'm not saying you're an elitist. I just want to make myself clear, but it's a relatively elitist narrative to pin the politicians rhetoric and quite frankly stupidity On the individual soldier and citizen and by the way because I know this is going to come up I extend that to the germans and nazi germany. Okay, not I write the people of germany Need to be understood as human beings even if what their government did was wrong That doesn't mean we need to defend somebody like Adolf Hitler Right, but it does mean that we need to understand that these things are a lot more complicated than people think I agree with that. I I totally 100% agree with that That doesn't give any justification to keep up monuments to these people and yeah, they could have been good people But they also own slaves and I don't care like he this is part of the lost cause narrative So like I didn't look at uh stonewall jackson too much And from what I did see he did seem to be a relatively good slave master But when it comes to robert e lee his slaves are quoted to saying he was one of the worst men in the history of the world And part of that lost cause narrative is glorifying this man to be something He's not for one. You mentioned that he was like some kind of military genius Um, many historians believe that his decision to find a conventional war against a much more superior army Lincoln's army was a huge major strategic blunder But beyond that, um, there's one quote a letter that he wrote to the new york times that gets misquoted people love to To say oh robert e lee was so enlightened because he said that slavery is a moral and political evil They don't go on to finish the quote the rest of the quote is I think it however A greater evil to the white man than to the black race and while my feelings are strongly enlisted for the latter My sympathies are more strong for the former. The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in africa morally socially and physically The painful discipline they are undergoing if necessary for their instruction as a race and I will And I hope we'll prepare and lead them to better things How long their subjugation may be necessary is known and ordered by a wise Merciful providence their emancipation will soon a result from the mild and melting influence of christianity Then the storms and tempests to fiery controversy. He thought he had a god given right to his slaves Um, so so to whitewash the history of robert e lee as being some some moral arbiter is just false Well, hang on. There's a couple things there. I think so first and foremost Um, I would say and I know I know it's not the point of the argument But I mean I'll go I'll I will I would debate with anybody who wants to say that robert e lee wasn't a military genius He made mistakes certainly. Um, I mean some of the largest mistakes we've ever seen were done by some of the greatest He invaded the north twice and lost both of those incursions. It was a huge blunder Absolutely, absolutely. But then there was I mean fredericksburg chancellorsville bull run the second no doubt He won individual battles oftentimes against uh, overwhelming odds. Oh, yeah, exactly I'm saying it was fantastic. But and that's fine more guerrilla war war. He he would have probably had a better chance of winning That's fair. That's a hunt and in fact to be fair Uh, general james long street said as much and stonewall jackson himself was fond of using his smaller army in ways that were not necessarily conventional So I agree with you on that but that doesn't mean that the man Right, we should give credit where and this is a big problem that I actually have With this idea see that the problem with tearing down statues isn't even in the act of tearing down statues But in the what it ends up representing in tearing down the people themselves completely life We can't even acknowledge that roberti lead did some very brilliant things. I mean the man whooped Virtually every union general including by the way ulysses grant who beat him the difference with grant was grant was a pit bull And he refused to lose I think that's natural like like, you know, um, what's his name? The roof guy that that went and shot nine people in the in the black church He probably did some good things in his life, right? But we're not going to glorify him because what he did was reprehensible. It's Fundamentally different though. That's fundamentally different though for how you know, it's not like a lot of these slave masters did a lot worse than that The for numerous reasons though. So first off, like I said, we do need to understand things in their historical and cultural context What roberti lee believed in and you'll notice I did say earlier on that what roberti lee believed was what's called white man's burden The idea of white man's burden was that it was actually a burden on the white man to To actually own the slave for the slaves own social and moral and religious Growth, I guess you could say, right? It's an important idea. Absolutely. That's what roberti lee believed However, how much more enlightened is that than nathan bedford forest who thinks that these people are literally I mean essentially just animals right who wants to go out and torch them who slaughters prisoners of war simply because he's infuriated The white and black people in the south by the way policy. They were three fists of human They weren't even considered fully human. Well, I understand that but that once again, that's the politicians, right? Lee had his That's perfectly fair But doesn't that kind of prove my point in the sense that this is something that you look at what roberti lee is actually believing And it's not enlightened by our standards by any stretch Granted by his standards Comparing that to nathan bedford forest comparing that to some of the other slave masters to do the fire eaters as they were called Right. That's absolutely enlightened. It's absolutely. It's not thomas jackson enlightened It's not um marcellus clay enlightened, right, but it's enlightened for the time period I would have read that that it was enlightened for the time period But still he fought to keep black people slaves and free black people were living in this in these areas Having to stare at a statue of this man. We can take these statues down. Nobody's saying whitewash history Nobody's saying in fact This is actually trying to stop the whitewashing and the glorifying of these confederates and put them back In their actual place The these things belong in a museum a place that that you can go and context can be provided to this But we have to put ourselves in the shoes of our of our fellow citizens right now People whose grandparents were slaves, right? And they have to look at these statues And it's easy for us to sit here and talk, you know semantics and history But we need to put ourselves in their shoes what they have to go through on a daily basis when they look at the people That didn't even consider them to be human See but I and the thing about that those there's two different ways that you can put them and put yourself in their shoes I want to address that in a second because I just want to briefly say as it pertains to these statues I Will say that I admire the fact that you separate the two because very few people do however I think the the movement itself Doesn't separate the you know the acts that one did and the statues that somebody has with you know Their reputation as a whole And to an extent we even see people, you know my problem with the modern historian and again I want to make be clear lost cause and the modern narrative as sold in in your Universities, I think they are both flawed with a lot of truth in them, right? um To be fair the modern one more so than the lost cause I would grant that Lost cause is basically propaganda. You know, I mean Certainly is some propaganda absolutely But there's points of it that like for example, you were talking about the whole virginia thing That's all that is a lost cause narrative because the lost cause would preserve that historical fact But it is a historical fact and these people believe Robert E. Lee and this is one of the things I keep You know wanting to point out he fought if you asked Robert E. Lee, why are you fighting? It was I want to defend virgin. In fact, he said as much. Well, yeah, he said he said that to Lincoln I think I'm quite aware of that. I didn't write so being offered the army there So that is something that is fundamentally different from what someone like Jefferson Davis or what someone like What Nathan Bedford for us the founder of the kkk, right? What they might might believe and what I'm saying is what we did in not only Reconciliation with Abraham Lincoln's idea of reconciliation, but also with you know, kind of allowing, you know, the confederates to basically Live on Was we set up a system which in the future has done us very well by the way of treating Historical radicals in an understandable way because we know what it's like That's why we were here in the first place and that's why a lot of Native Americans a lot of times farther on it depends on the Place obviously sometimes they were absolutely brutalized a lot of other times they went on to go get you know educated And then obviously would they be happy with their situation? No, but For the time there was people who wanted to be Enlightened and wanted to push forward certain things that would actually you know help people out and things like that And we see that looking back through history, right? We see that there are people who wanted to do these things people who actually did great things people who did great things Despite doing other terrible things one of the ways that you can actually see where other people are coming from Is by understanding that they have a lot of heroes who did the same That by understanding that Malcolm X was a very racist man by understanding that Martin Luther King had numerous terrible qualities By understanding that Nat Turner wanted to literally go into white homes and kill white women and children Right and understanding that despite those things despite those abhorrent beliefs and actions Right that there was a historical context to understand it in that Turner led a slave revolt and he killed white people But they were brutalizing him and his people like like that's justified like I mean all right So that's the second time now you brought up Native Americans now. I need to inform you. I am 33 percent Cherokee um You first mentioned a crazy horse and how um, he was a false prophet for one. He wasn't a Christian That that he was an adulterer Native Americans had very different Lifestyles and he took no prisoners of war The european committed a genocide upon his people and you're gonna say he needs to fight by the Geneva convention No, that's not how it works. That's not that's not accurate history. And then you're gonna hang on That's not accurate. That's only lost over the whites Pretty much kidnapping Native American children forcing them into Christian boarding schools and talk about like that Like that's some kind of good thing. It wasn't it's part of the genocide It's part of the stain of America's multiple things that need to be pointed out there first and foremost, right? We need to understand that what the American people were doing in that war and by the way, let me just be perfectly frank You're not going to find a very much more pro-native american conservative than I am in fact I'm a believer of nationalism and all for all nations. I would like to see a form of Zionism for Native Americans I'm 100 positive that that would improve relations between our peoples Especially if it wasn't forced like if there was this thing like hey, you can go have a country But also you can stay here if you'd like to as well. I mean that would be amazing So I think that could actually do us a lot of good and there's a lot of areas in this country that are very sparsely populated that being said It's not like the Native Americans weren't actually just as brutal in warfare as we were there was no Geneva convention, right? They're obviously things are exaggerated, of course But there was instances of Native Americans slaughtering villages filled with women and children There was obviously tribes that scout people there was obviously raping and pillaging and plundering and all that kind of stuff, right? My point in bringing crazy horse up in slaughtering these people, right is not to tarnish Crazy horse is to say you guys need to understand and I say you guys generally not you in particular obviously Um that things have a very specific historical context. You even pointed it out there. Well, his people were being attacked It was exactly so he feels he's justified in doing something that a lot of us would feel is not justified You actually brought up Osama bin Laden I'm glad that you did because I know people Who will justify Osama bin Laden tooth and nail and they're wrong in my opinion, of course And and I think objectively but that's a philosophical question, but they're very understandable. They're very understandable I understand exactly why they hate the united states of america I just think that it's wrong to fly planes into buildings And if somebody were to build a statue of Osama bin Laden in 100 years down the road a more enlightened democratic group Took over Saudi Arabia and wanted to take it down. I would honestly say keep it up understand the history Of what this person represented why he represented it and that were all human beings because you know one of the problems We have here and this is why I have a problem with taking down these statues is they breed mentalities that completely label not only Historical figures as evil and to be thrown out and things like that But also modern groups that are alleged to be their descendants For example, the republican party which has no link whatsoever to the confederacy and yet a lot of people think That they are now. I'm not seeing whether you're a republican democrat Not the point the point is that they are not they were not allowed in the democratic are in the confederacy They were not dominant in the south until 100 years after the confederacy was destroyed And yet we linked them and because of that link now we need to tear them down as well Because the link of george washington being a slave owner We need to tear him down as well it breeds a mentality Whereas if we just say I want to preserve The history understanding what happened and by the way, this is not just my opinion. It's the opinion of many Uh black conservatives also. So if we want to play the you know the understanding other people That's I mean There's other people who are of other cultures and other races who agree with me on the issue like david wood or web rather anthony bryan logon I'm sure kandace owens does but I can't actually say that she's a grifter Um, all right. So there was a lot there and I think I forgot most of it. Um, sorry. I'm a little long winded sometimes Yeah, um Yeah, I totally my daughter totally got me off track here. Um, Will you just kind of repeat the gist of your argument that you just made? Yeah, absolutely. So it's that I think that number one One way to understand people is to understand their historical figures are complicated also number two We need to understand things as historians differently from the way that we and I didn't actually word this properly But differently from the way we would understand it at the time Crazy horse did have reasons that he felt made him justified in slaughtering these soldiers But maybe we would disagree looking back, you know, if it were to happen today Maybe we would disagree and then I brought up the osama bin laden and understanding why Osama bin laden did what he did having people who have explained to me why and understanding where they come from Right and doing that by the way without actually Justifying him right. Um, there's a famous quote from Alan Moore's watchman without condoning or condemning, right? Um, I I think we as thinkers historical, you know, philosophical all that kind of stuff We need to understand that a lot of times Um And then I said that the breeds of mentality that tears down history as a whole And indeed even groups that are considered to be associated with that history whether falsely or um, rightly Like for example people saying the republican party is linked to the confederate. That's what I wanted to hear You know, cool historical and accuracy. All right. So sorry about that. Um, my daughter usually knows better Uh to interrupt me during the debate, but it is nine o'clock. It's her night time shot. So she uh, she had reason Um, so I apologize for that. So when it comes to like, um, history and nuances of history Nobody like it again, nobody's saying we need to erase the history here in fact, I think Most proponents of taking down these statues are more for actually telling the real history Having all of the nuance showing the truth of it showing the brutality Um, and that's that can't be forgotten when it when it comes to talking about, um These statues that that these are bringing Terrifying memories of what happened to to family members in the not so distant past Two black americans in this country, but you mentioned republicans and democrats and how republicans can't be linked to the To the confederacy and you are just wrong there. So what happened in the civil rights movement is the party switched Pretty much everybody knows this during the civil rights movement. The dixie crafts became the southern republicans You're right. It was a hundred years later when the when the republicans switched But you're talking like the republicans back in 1860 were the liberals and the democrats Were the conservatives the parties flipped. So that's how the republican party today Who claim to be the party of lincoln when they're not is linked to the confederacy and that's why A vast majority of so-called confederates today call themselves republicans I would I would like to actually Offer a a debate offer for that in the future because to be honest with you. I could completely divert the topic Um getting into that. I think that's a very interesting point, but to make the long story short um, I think that the the narrative of the southern strategy is significantly overblown Like the republicans already admitted to it Well, hang on there's a because there's a whole bunch of things that need to be understood with that first and foremost Um, there's a lot of figures who for example, george wallis the most famous Right of those hardcore states, right segregationist all that kind of stuff He died in I think the 90s A democrat the lifelong democrat and the democrats have always believed Generally the same stuff they do now the political ideology of course shifts over the course of a hundred years But this idea that on like for example It was the quote-unquote progressives led by people like william jennings bryan a democrat in the early 1900s Who wanted to go after big corporations and stuff like that breaking up monopolies And it just so happened the theodore roosevelt was this kind of lightning rod precisely because he was a progressive yet a republican Right, that's a hundred years ago 50 years before the quote-unquote switch Um strong thurmond is the example most people use but strong thurmond is one dude He's right. He's one guy. It was more than just one guy. It was all of the southern dixie crafts I mean, this is known history like this like this is something that conservatives try to run from because they try to They try to continue to maintain that there's still the party of lincoln and again Mind you lincoln didn't want to end slavery. So it's not like you're you're the party that wanted to end slavery, you know but But again, it's just not accurate They are no longer that party when it comes to this issue when it comes to civil rights and equality the party switched I mean, I just I simply don't think there's any evidence for that And I say that by the way as somebody who is not a republican even though I am a conservative I have numerous problems with the party that is not a democrat anymore after all the recent bullshit I'm glad we can agree on that at least because that is More people figure that out the better this country will be in my personal opinion But moving on just because I don't want to get this too diverted. Like I said, we should definitely Meet up and talk about this. I would definitely have another debate on that topic with you at another time. Absolutely. Um But uh to get more kind of like back to the point when you say, you know, nobody is saying Completely tarnished these historical figures totally and things like that the thing is is they are the thing is is a lot of people Are actually saying that saying that in fact, there's people Because they don't want to hear it but like when it comes to taking down the statues It's not about whitewashing history. It's just about getting them off of the public space Most of us most and yes, there is some extremists here But most of us would like to see a u.s slavery museum where all of these artifacts and the context surrounding them Can be put and then americans can go and truly learn the history of the civil war instead of the whitewashed history That people are learning today. Both are a whitewashed version though I mean you said even yourself right when we were having earlier in this conversation this idea that Well, you have a robbery Lee made these huge blunders. That's I know he did but numerous people did when you study the military history I mean, there are some guys right for nobody's perfect example. I because I love this example Um, ulysses s grant because he's the one who fought and eventually defeated lee ulysses s grant Was criticized relentlessly by union newspapers because his strategy was essential with a lot of people called meat grinder strategy Which was just I have more troops and they are better equipped and I'm going to pound you into the ground It worked but his casualty rate was something like two sometimes three sometimes four to one Against lee who decided to actually you know do things even though conventionally a little bit more now that The point not to necessarily get off on lee himself But to say that that is a narrative now modern historians want to push to tarnish the man's military accomplishments because they don't Agree with the fact that he fought for what he perceives to be his country i.e. Virginia Hence the reason why the confederacy was set up as a confederacy rather than a federation Um, I would agree that we should try to tarnish that I would agree we shouldn't they're both pretty you know biased Both cost cause and the modern narrative I would agree that we shouldn't take away, you know What robert lee lee did um what what what the confederates did um the battle it would we we should learn from that lesson And you can only learn from history if it's there and if it's accurate So I would totally agree with that and that's not what taking the statues down is for Taking the statues down again is for every person not just black people like you can be a white person You can be a person of any color past that statue and understand fundamentally the social ramifications That's having on people today today we today those statues are glaring down at human beings and saying you need to be put in your place And they were erected at specific times in history when black people were either being subjugated or trying to find their equality And they were deliberate Deliberately erected to put those black people back in their place. You cannot run away from that This the the lost cause narrative has been very poisonous to this country And I will agree that that we need to have a full and accurate history We do not need to forget this history every person should know this history And sadly too many people don't it's not about that It's about taking them off of the public space putting them in a museum where they belong And and respecting our fellow human beings around us Honestly, if I trusted the modern Establishment which I use sort of generally because in America the establishment is interchangeable different people can be elected at different times different people Professors different times understanding that though the modern established train of thought I think if I could trust them to actually preserve History in a way that would be accurate. I would have no problem with that the problem is they don't It would be much more accurate than monuments glorifying these people when you yourself said it's very nuanced They were there were human beings. They were very flawed not to mention slave owners We should not be glorifying the defenders of white supremacy. This white supremacy narrative has has resurfaced several times I think I think I saw like three key point times since the civil war Um, and it's resurfaced resurfacing now as we speak Um, well before people took to the streets with this current protest We've seen a spike in and white nationalist groups and neo-nazi groups since trump took office We've seen a spike in racist hate crimes since trump took office We are seeing a spike in white supremacy again because we never got rid of it And it's a false doctrine It's a doctrine we invented to justify to our christian selves that it was okay to Own and brutalize human beings when it wasn't and we need to we need to defeat that false narrative And I do agree that the lost cause is a false narrative, but I also think I mean, you know You say there's a white supremacy the lost cause is only 160 years old the white supremacy in this country is 400 years old See that's not even possible though because this country is not even 400 years old and that's another thing It was however old it is. I think it's like the 1700s when when the country was discovered the 1700s when the mid-atlantic trade slave Was was established So, I mean it's been nearly 400 years if it hasn't been quite 400 years yet Okay, but there's multiple things that need to be that need to be said there for I mean first and foremost The united states was not a country until 1789 Everything before maybe I'm getting my not be blamed on the united states, right? That's when our constitution was established But even before that even before that that white supremacy was here because we own slaves before that constitution was established There's nothing to do with the united states that would be that would be like the entire reason that thomas jefferson wasn't able to get it eradicated It's it's the reason the southern states and that uh continental congress Didn't want to lose their slaves It was an issue in that continental congress because it was already an issue before you can't take that away I get that but that has it has nothing to do with the united states in the sense that our history Of being racist as a country cannot possibly be older than our history as a country We began in 1789 1776 as a historical misnomer Um in fact July 4th wasn't even the day of the declaration of independence was signed. Um, you know what I mean, so Like the fact is for it was 1789 19 years. I am older than 19 I think everybody here is i'm only 22, but I am older than 19, right? um 19 years it took for the united states of america to say you know what this whole mid-atlantic slave trade thing I'm not really down with 76 years. It took that is lower than the average age Uh, the average life expectancy expectancy in the united states for us to abolish slavery I know people older than that they they entered they they ended this the trade, but not the slavery not the antebellum slavery itself and 1808 right that's 19 years and then 1789 to 1865 that's 76 years You cannot take away the fact that there was years before that Years upon years of slavery and white supremacy that had Engrained itself into this nation. In fact our policing system. We have kept from From england like sheriffs. So we still have sheriffs to this day and the policing system is what's that issue right now So, I mean you you can't take away from the fact that the history before the country Sure. Yeah the country 19 years later abolished the slave trade. They didn't abolish slavery And that white supremacy was there engrained in our society. Well before that and that is my point I mean, there's a lot of things that were engrained in a society. Well before that though But they're not something that you can actually blame On the united states the 400 years narrative. Hey jay. Hey jay hold on one second We got james talking real quick james. Go ahead. Hold on. Let me uh, I think I have to unmute myself on zoom Uh Oh, no, you're i'm really hopefully you can hear me. So basically what we will do is In a second maybe just a couple more minutes We will go into the q&a and so if you have any questions folks fire them into the old live chat If you tag me with at modern day debate We will grab those questions and be sure they at least get on the list And we'll go through as many as we possibly can with the remaining time we have which is so i'll say maybe If one of you is willing to defer to the other and giving them the last word excellent otherwise in in two minutes strictly in two minutes, I will quickly bring us into q&a so Uh going back to you cj Uh, I just I just wanted to briefly say the 400 year narrative assumes American guilt for the crimes of nations that were around before america even existed it would be roughly equivalent of blaming Uh groups like for example the iraqis for the fact that the rashid and caliphate Committed slaughters of christians and other people who were native to the area that we now know is iraq when in reality they're separated They're not the same people. Uh, they're not even the same nation. You know what? I mean Um, so I I think we just need to understand that like when it comes to those narratives The united states itself had slavery for a lower amount of time than you as an american are expected to live And that is a absolutely fantastic achievement when you consider Rightfully so as you've said how racist and supremacist a lot of groups around the world actually were at that time, but I'll go ahead. My final word is that's only true because we fought a war and we defeated those. Um, we defeated the south and You know, again, I'm not talking about um I'm not using a 400 year narrative as over owning their sense to i'm simply saying it provided A it provided the white supremacy Um in our society and it was there before our society was even formed. That's my point and when it comes When it comes to the statues, I'm here talking about the sins of the confederacy I'm only talking about so when you talk about that you have to talk about the root cause Which is that white supremacy? Which is that three-fifths and narrative? And and you can't escape that so that's what these statues are about and and even new orleans who pulled down all of their monuments Want to put those monuments into a museum? Um, that is the talk. That is what we're talking We're not saying a race history. We're saying respect our fellow human beings. We're going to go into q&a So what i'm going to do here is so that is roughly 50 50 I am firing the standard questions over to hunter right now via facebook messenger What I will do is read through the questions that we have had come through as super chats And then hunter will read through as many questions as we can from the standard questions as well So firing through these as fast as possible overtly. Oh, we got overtly validated. Thanks for yours We already read that one mothra j disco. Thanks for your super chat. Who said Let me just double check that i'm not muted. I have a bad habit. Okay, excellent Mothra thinks they said destroying the memories of oppression via statues created by clan isn't erasing history It's what a legit american who loves freedom should do Thoughts on that cj. If you have a short and pithy response Yeah, um, my response is simply that the slippery slope argument is not an argument anymore It's just a fact we've seen modern liberals and liberal activists and i'm not i'm generalizing so it doesn't mean each and every single one but Um defaced the 54th massachusetts regiment the lincoln memorial washington's monuments things like that This doesn't stop with the confederate monuments as much as people want it to That's just not the way That the modern activists are taking it Gotcha. Thanks so much for your super chat from The jim tanker appreciate it says why would anyone want to celebrate seditious traders? You can read about those losers in a book It's a good question. I want to know why you would why why would you celebrate george washington? You know what i mean? Gotcha and the let's see matra j disco. Thanks for your super chat says john brown Then pointing to stonewall jackson and robert e lee I don't necessarily know who that's to but um john brown is also a famous radical from history and also a person who i would gladly defend just in case anybody thinks i am Unbalanced here gotcha and matra j disco. Thanks for your other super chat said sonwall and lee We're still fighting for slavery I mean that that's not the perspective that they saw it in um You know what i mean that they said and and you would see it much different too and when osama bin laden attacked the twin towers You didn't see it as osama bin laden defending his holy sites in saudi arabia You saw it as uh him attacking innocent people and declaring war on you and so it really does don't get me wrong There is moral truths humans are rather complicated people real quick before we move on I think you're looking through your modern lens now because you're saying that you know what they thought When they were both slave owners and they were both fighting to keep those slaves I mean it there had to be some economic reasons in there as well besides state pride Gosh, yeah, and well, i'll give you uh cj If you want to head to the last word on that just because that super chat was challenging You don't want to gang up on you if you want to say anything really quick back Oh, I would just simply say that they themselves told us the reasons why they fought um Not everyone did of course, but a lot of the generals did and whilst I certainly don't deny That they were slave owners and that they may have personally wanted to preserve that right in the end Right without an invasion. You see seven states to see you see virginia state because there's no invasion They abolished slavery lee would have gladly as he said himself Giving them up had they been abolished Gotcha, and thanks for your super chat from mothra j disco strikes again saying the country's history starts pre colonies I mean If that's the way that you want to see it that doesn't even make any sense though How can the how can the history of a nation? I mean that's like saying martin luther king's history starts with the birth of his father It's like no it doesn't no it doesn't that's that is a heritage question It may you know add some insight as to how martin luther king grew up and things like that It's certainly not irrelevant, but it's not his life, right? Gotcha And with that one last thing I want to say joshua. Thanks for subscribing saw you pop up on the screen Glad to have you as a new member of the community here at modern day debate We will switch it over to hunter bailey. Look at that happy little face in the bottom right of your screen Happy little married uh friend of ours. We appreciate it as very exciting. So Excellent hunter the floor is all yours with those questions i've said Thanks so much. Okay, so pretty much I'm going to try to balance it out and james if you do see any other questions Please send them away so that we can try to get all of them, okay? And so let me just go straight to a question for rage Um, and it starts off with a statement. Um, and then it goes into the question So just let me do the statement and the question and then um, you can answer the way you want to so um from Opposer of religion I think that's the name at modern day debate for raging atheists The party switch in quotes is a liberal lie. That's the statement rage name one other switcher besides strom thurman Uh, I I don't have that information available. Um, but it would be very easy to do so every all the discret switch So I just have to look up those names All right. I like it. Okay, and this is from Almost all I said all almost all sorry There you go All right, so iron character at modern day debate as cj is any all capitalized any emphasis on the any militia justified in defending slavery and hate and the second question is and what justified it Actually that is a very interesting and complicated question that I in fact intend on writing a book on not necessarily that in and of itself But what exactly justifies violence? I think we have seen a philosophical goldmine in witnessing armed protests for covet followed by violent protests for for uh, George floyd in that particular sense So I actually plan on addressing that much deeper, but in short I would say that um Number one what you believe in the present is different than what you should believe necessarily historically in other words At the time of the civil war I'm definitely joining the union cause because I do believe we should actually have one nation As a historian. I think I can look at it differently Um, but also you need to ask yourself the question. What exactly are people fighting for is the leader of the group? Fighting because he wants to preserve himself Whereas each individual is fighting because they think he's actually going to preserve them in a way that is uh luxurious and prosperity And uh, what would be the word prosperity? I don't know. What's what is the word that you would use to describe? Not relevant point is you get what i'm saying peace and prosperity and all those good things live long and prosper, right? So it's it's more nuance than just that but in the end morality is black and white I do think that when you defend Systems that are evil that is wrong and I do want to make clear. I don't think the confederacy was on the right side All right, great. Okay. So this also is for uh, cj And as a matter of fact, it's a good question I believe and so i'm actually going to switch it just so that we can kind of bring both y'all in this. Okay, so For cj. Do you actively advocate building monuments for all major events in american history? It's an interesting question. Um I guess actively no, but I wouldn't have a problem with anybody who did um And in fact, I saw a debate recently between it was a street debate between a black woman and a white man In front of the one of the statues they're trying to take down and she said well You know, this would be roughly the equivalent of us putting a nat turner statue up in um In a white neighborhood to be honest if that's the compromise you want whatever i'm done Nat turner has many heroic qualities about himself. So, you know, that's fine Um, I guess i'm not actively endorsing it But I um in the sense that you know, I'm the one who's like, hey, let's go spend some taxpayer money I'm building a a nat turner statue, but if you want one by all means, I don't care Okay, and now let me raise let me switch it on you. Um Do you actively advocate tearing down monuments for all monuments who own slaves? No, um, I think I think that it it would be an interesting discussion once we win the confederate Uh, uh war on statues, but I think like with people like Washington and jefferson and people like that um, we memorialize them um for their ideals and for creating the country we we memorialize them despite their sins and the difference being that that with um the confederates were memorializing them for their sins. I would I would um definitely be for taking all statues of christopher columbus down But that would be a different debate as well Okay, great. All righty. So the next one is uh for cj question And this is from also uh iron chariot and sorry. I didn't mention the other names the other one Was from jeremy tea. Uh, just a shout out for you. Thanks for the question Another one from iron charioter to cj. Why are your statues of confederates different than stalin? Mal and colton. They're not They're not I honestly and I I I catch quite a bit of flak from my conservative friends for this But they absolutely are not there is no difference between a radical that diff that differs from you ideologically Except for the fact that they differ with you ideologically and quite frankly I think the people of eastern europe do themselves a disservice when they you know rip down these statues of men dead 50 60 hundred years rather than you know finding a way to actually preserve the history whilst also acknowledging the horrible atrocities that they did Um, you know our histories are essentially the novels of us as a people Um, and they're they're good stories to to be You know a little bit romantic about it. I guess Um, and we shouldn't be ashamed of that even if there's certain things in it that are terrible I mean there's terrible things in all good stories, right darth vader blew up alderaan. That's that's a terrible thing Of course, that's a fiction, but the point being that's part of what makes the story So, you know emotional and epic and philosophically, you know Deep and all these other sorts of things and and so I don't think we should be ashamed even of the bad parts of our stories Gosh, yeah Do you want to jump in with a couple of super chats that have come through more recently talison overlander things for your super chat says Made the ghosts of the confederacy rest in piss Thanks for that Rage's face Looking at his face Mothra j. Disco. Thanks for your super chat says cj. You aren't a historian because Don't understand it I like oh, I think they're maybe trying to say because you don't understand it But I'm not there is a missing word there. So I'm not sure if I got that right mothra I'll say let me know if I if I butchered that Yeah, I mean that that's that's fine that people think that you know, I guess it's not really much any Early any way to address it other than that got you up the long and prosper Moth was it oh mothra. You got that one. Sorry. Uh, a poser of religion. Uh, thanks for your super chat says hillary clinton's mentor Bird or beard was in the clan Uh, let's see clan. It has to be like a forbidden word on youtube. Um Anyway, um Sorry for that Donald trump's dad was so Gotcha and kicking it back over to hunter bailey Thanks. All right. So going on with the other questions that we have here. Um, this one here is from mind onion, uh, and it says at moderated a cj keeps trying to rewrite history with Lost cause and claiming there was no hearty switch. How can he possibly talk about trying to remember a question mark? I mean, that's not rewriting history if you want to show me some evidence that it's rewriting history In fact to be fair I would I would appeal here to the fact that Most of the historical claims and you can you can correct me if i'm wrong here and rage But most of the historical claims I made were not actually challenged here because they're pretty well established with the exception of the party switch I think Yeah, I think that would be the big one. Um, maybe some, you know, maybe the embracing of the um, uh Some of the narratives when it when it comes to stonewall jackson and robert e lee I'm glad to see you didn't uh talk about jefferson davis though because he was douche Fair granted and you know what else to do to be fair. You mentioned columbus not a big fan. Got to be honest with you cool Alrighty, so this is one is from Dave Dave langer. I think it's how you say it. Sorry for that. Uh at moderated data bait cue for jay if you get to it Would he be okay with the compromise instead of tearing down the statues just move them off state land to a museum or private land And honestly, I will put this for rage as well. Um, do you think that that would be, you know, the best kind of compromise? So jay you go first If I could if we can trust that the culture will actually do that absolutely Right now, I don't think we can I'll give a perfect example that bleeds completely out of the intellectual and into the cultural um World war two call of duty, right? They couldn't even put swastikas in the game Because they were too scared. It might offend somebody now think about this. Here's a video game where you're killing people Right, but we can't make those people evil people Because otherwise we would be killing them for justified reasons. I don't even understand the logic behind that You know what i'm saying and yet they did because we have this culture that looks at these historical things And they'll just they just vomit profusely because they don't like what happened in the past. Um, if that was not the the mainstream narrative in You know in intellectual discourse and absolutely be fine with that and to be fair it very well might end up You know the being that way in the future. We've gone through numerous periods of time when intellectuals were Dishonest shall we say and a lot of times a lot of better intellectuals won out. So we'll see what happens Yeah, I would just real quick. Um, I would totally be down for it like cj I would I would I would hope that it would be historically accurate and that um, you know A pc culture doesn't get a hold of it. Um, I would totally agree with that I would I would like the the the historical muse museum of the civil war When that would happen to be 100 percent the truth and people should have disclaimers going in that they're going to see things That they probably don't like All right and to kind of just move on uh from Will of our will of our I guess is how you say it at martin day debate Ask the soy man on the left what he thinks about jewish supremacy Who's on the left? I guess I don't really know I think the soy boy would be me All right. Yeah, um, what do I think about jewish supremacy? I think any racial supremacy is wrong Um period. So i'm a secular humanist. I believe that all humans have merit Even if they disagree with me even if they have atrocious ideals that I would combat They still have merit. So, um, I would say that any form of racial supremacy is just flat out wrong One quick thing donald's angry. Thanks for your super chat said my sweet tea is made with a 100 percent Yankee tears. Thanks for that super chat All right, wouldn't I be considered a yankee because i'm from Wisconsin? Is that yes, okay Technically what's so bad about yankees? Okay, go ahead. Go ahead hunter Damn yankees jam. I'm a damn yankee. So I I was a person that was born in the north. I went to the south and I stayed there You're up in michigan, right? Yeah, I live in michigan. I was born in michigan. My dad moved us to north kirline in the fourth grade I was raised and spent most uh most of my youth there and then in my 20s. I moved back to michigan That's right. So you're a trader. You're a trader pretty much Of course One last super chat just fired in from general ball sack. Thanks for your super chat said Raging Atheist They're addressing you saying three fifths was intended to degrade slave states power in congress Do you think it would have been better to have them count as full people and increase the power of slave holding states In the constitutional convention false narrative Yeah, total bullshit. It was it was definitely meant to make Black peoples less of a human And it was a demonizing propaganda to to justify the brutality that black people suffered So, um, I asked to the specific context of the question. I would have to look into it But I just reject that thoroughly Gotcha one last one super chat. Thanks for your super chat from wolf I don't know the chinese symbol right before the word wolf. I don't know. I don't know what chinese Sorry, they said that call of duty reference to be fair since the the uh swastika is illegal to show in germany most games that ship Internationally avoid it. It's not really an american thing Oh, okay. So I think they're saying like You know because germany won't allow it Americans are kind of trying to be more efficient. They just produce the game and just leave it out altogether in case they're You know that way they don't have to like You know change certain games to allow it or not allow it Well, to to be fair, um, I I think that that First off, I think that's wrong And I know this is not the debate, but you know individual People who want to display their confederate flag and believe their life lost cause ideology I mean, this is the united states of america do whatever you want. I don't care Um, and I think the same should be true in germany, but it's not it's not my country So whatever they can do whatever they want to do that being said The same thing has led us to You know censored a huge number of people, of course, you know ironically south parks banned in china is banned in china God of wars banned in saudi arabia You know so on and so forth and people start to adjust what they do here because they want to Appease a tyrannical government in another market that quite frankly does not necessarily deserve our products And I think honestly a government should be forced if they want our cultural products They can accept them in full and and deal with it, you know I mean if they don't want to deal with it then then elect new people, you know And I mean, I know in some instances that's not necessarily Possible like saudi arabia or china, but I'm just I'm not interested in placating Which to be fair, I guess somebody who has a little bit more of an economic and less principled view might be different So I grant that Dodge kicking it back over to good old hunter bailey All right, and to kind of actually add a little bit to that There is the claim out there that even in germany You're it is illegal to deny the Holocaust in germany now That's just a claim that I heard I never actually checked it out But just you know if anybody wants to go check it out. That's just something I heard Yeah, no that is that is true and and you know and as a result for the record They still have vicious neo-nazi groups. We do too, but they're not nearly as bad As in size. I mean Gotcha, okay, and this is actually the final question I have here. Um, and it says Tadiner BTC Hopefully that's on the right at modern day debate. Why are there still confederate statues in congress and There isn't necessarily pointed towards somebody. So we'll just say this is for both of y'all since it's the final one Why are there confederate statues in congress and rage? What would you say? Um, are there I I'm not sure about that. I I know that there are like military bases. Um, I know that there are schools Um, so if there are I don't know why there are there there shouldn't be Considering that they were I mean they were traders of the country Now I I think cj is right that it's a philosophical debate to have on whether um succession should be unconstitutional I think maybe it shouldn't be but the u.s. Supreme court did rule that it was so by that Just the act of succeeding from the union is Traders so they shouldn't be Gotcha. Yeah, and I would say So go ahead We'll give you a chance to respond as long as we give a rage the last word because I think it was originally for him But if you want to do a quick rebuttal you can But yeah, absolutely. I was just gonna say um the the statues we have in congress aren't necessarily Uh based off of anything more than I mean a lot of times like for example, we have like statues of Solon Right, I mean that's just simply because he was a lawgiver. It has nothing to do with anything else So, um, it's a little bit more arbitrary in that sense I think you know Congress is is actually very arbitrary with their architecture if we're being completely honest with you Yeah, I would agree with that. Um, and again if they are then I'd have no like I would be forgetting rid of them But yeah, it would probably be more like they did make laws or some shit Gotcha and last one patreon question or comment from adam el bilia Thanks for your question adam or statement said for cj They said I do not or he said I do not agree with your position But you come across as an honest debater sincere debaters are a rare commodity aka Rhyme with covid So much appreciated And I appreciate that as well I agree. It's it's hard to find conservatives to have a reasonable conversation with and I thought this was a very reasonable conversation Likewise, I've enjoyed it Gotcha. So thanks so much folks want to say huge. Thanks. It's been tremendous tonight. Super fun And tomorrow night, we will be back for the first time in a while with a good old flat earth debate as Nathan Thompson rages twin brother and austin witsit gets it Partner on a tag team against mctoon and steven So that should be a lot of fun. Then we've got a lot man. I'm pumped you guys I just want to like let you know about some of the dank debates Which hopefully i'm hoping that our dearest friend hunter look at him down there precious I'm hoping he can help I'm hoping he can help moderate one of these at least this week because we have yes, then Wednesday We are pumped as sal and dan will be debating round two with erika. She'll actually be here this time It's going to be epic. She'll be co-moderating Maybe that actually might be kind of fun to like change things up is that wednesday if you're free hunter Maybe well, we'll talk later Then we'll talk this friday though you guys i'm pumped if you're a big fan of Libertarianism or maybe you're a big hater either way you should probably show up for this one as adam kokesh One of the kings of libertarian libertarianism debate on youtube will be here And he will be debating keleb maupin on whether or not If i remember right it's whether or not police brutality is a result of capitalism So that should be an interesting one saturday should be I think i've got to remember but i we do have one scheduled for saturday you guys i'm not joking You're not gonna believe me folks believe me. Okay We i'm excited I'm very excited We have some debates right now that we're setting up that they will shake the pillars You guys think i'm joking you guys think i'm being dramatic They will some of these debates if they happen, which they're like in the works we're talking We just can't announce it yet. They will shake the pillars of religion debate and Political debate and both of those debates may happen this month. So i'm excited. They're like big time bigger than what we've hosted before Huge okay, so anyway, I just want to say I love We appreciate our speakers so much. I have linked. I didn't mention this in the start and I should have We have linked both rage aka nakasuchi and cj cox in the description So that way folks if you're listening and you're like, hmm I like that. I want more you can hear more. That's why I put those links in the description for you What are you waiting for? so Really exciting and i'm also going to host or i'm also going to put Our co-host co moderators link namely hunter baileys link for sentinel apologetics down in the description as well As we totally appreciate his help and so very pleasant guy. Look at him. It's a face. You got to love Oh my god, so But I do oh, that's right. Nick tune is pronounced mc tune. Sorry about that very embarrassing Thanks for embarrassing me in front of everybody stripper liquor. Thanks Want to say though, thanks so much rage and cj cox for your debating tonight. It's honestly been a pleasure to have you guys Yeah, yeah, thanks for having me then Absolutely, I appreciate it also So with that keep something out there reasonable from the unreasonable folks And we will hopefully see you tomorrow for another great debate. Have a great night everybody