 Just as we start every episode, we like to express our sincerest gratitude, our appreciation to our presenting sponsors, and you can see their logos right in front of you on the screen. These are companies that serve the nation in the nonprofit sector. They're here to lift you up to lean in and help roll up the sleeves and get the good work done in our community. So they believe in the good work that you do, and they are right here behind you every step of the way. Just as Julia Patrick is, which is the CEO of the American Nonprofit Academy, and I join Julia every morning, most mornings. I'm Jarrett Ransom, the non-profit nerd CEO of the Raven Group. And I am so excited to share with all of you today our guest as she comes to us by way of Bloomerang. Steven Shaddock had her, I believe Madison you were on as an article or webinar, something, but it blew my mind and I said, we would love to have you on the non-profit show. So I poached you from Steven Shaddock with Bloomerang, but I wanna welcome Madison Gonzalez, Advancement with Morning Light on today's episode. Welcome Madison. Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here. And yeah, really looking forward to the next half hour with you all. It's gonna be great. It's gonna go by fast. It's gonna go by fast because today we're gonna talk about equitable and effective storytelling. Two words, I don't think I've seen together. Yeah, this is an exciting topic. This is the first time I've actually spoken on this topic as well. So it's definitely gonna be a really interesting conversation, I think. Well, I'm really, really excited. So let's dig into it. Everybody's talking about storytelling. I know that you've won some national awards for storytelling about the nonprofit user. You've been engaged in it. You talk about this. Let's back up and tell us what it even means. Sure. So storytelling is giving people a voice. It's really one of the most effective community science actually. So just something up, it's effective because when you think about it from childhood, we're actually conditioned to listen to and absorb stories. So stories really help us form views about the world. We look to stories for examples. We look for information and also they're just enjoyable. They really connect the listener to the person telling the story in a way that other forms of communication just can't do because it's very show and not tell form of communication. You have context, you have characters, you have things that we can relate to in stories and we're constantly trying to put ourselves into the shoes of the character. So your brain is actually absorbing information, remembering information and enjoying the information more than just stats and facts and PowerPoints could do. So learning how to tell good stories is really important for your mission, for your nonprofit because it really helps your audience understand what you're doing in a more effective way and not only that, it engages them on an emotional level. We're really trying to evoke that emotional response in our audience because what we do is important and we need support and we need people to get it and we need people to get behind it. So if you can get them emotionally interested by sharing a really powerful story of maybe a struggle and then the triumph that you've helped facilitate and that they can then help facilitate by being involved with you, then it's just a really powerful way to communicate what you're trying to do and people act on emotion. As much as we all like to think we are carefully calculated and everything we do has a purpose and a reason, really we're emotional beings. So storytelling is just the most effective way to engage people on an emotional level. Absolutely. You blew my mind by getting it all the way back to childhood, right, storytelling level. I immediately think of relatability. I think that's the word I'm trying to say. Wow. So the teaser into the entire time this morning and so I'm really excited but you did Madison, you already blew my mind when it came to, that child opponent. So Madison, you work with an organization, a nonprofit there in Indianapolis. Before I ask for you to explain more about equity in storytelling, let's back up a little bit and give us an idea of how your work with Morning Light and how you are telling stories about your nonprofit. Absolutely. So really I came to love storytelling almost after taking the job. What we do at Morning Light is we actually operate a hospice home for the terminally ill who have nowhere to go and no one to care for them in their final days of life. And it's a beautiful 12 bedroom home here in Indianapolis and people come to us when they have six months or less. And I remember pretty early in my job taking on the job thinking these people have so much insight and experience because they're in that final stage and with life's final stages, there's so much reflection that goes on and they have so much insight. And so it really started with just conversations and that's what I try to tell people is, really you need to take an interest in people and learn about them and just have a conversation and the story really presents itself. There was a man in particular at the home and his name was Richard and I just, he was one of the first people I got to know there and he actually kept a journal by his bedside with just tons of wisdom and insight. He did have a really tough go at life. There was some addiction issues and troubled childhood and all of these things but he turned of life around and became actually a AA sponsor. He used his story to help people suffering from a similar issue, right? And that's when I started to realize, stories are really valuable because they provide almost a guidebook for other people in similar situations. And so people were looking to Richard, what do I do in this situation? And he was able to use his story to help but not only that in his journal, his very final entry, he ended up donating the journal this morning night and it said, too many of us leave this world with our stories untold as a final entry and that just stood out to me so much and I still get chills. I told this story like a hundred times but I would get chills when I say that because it really opened my eyes and I just thought people deserve a voice and people have so much to offer just from being alive, right? So I really started collecting the stories of the individuals that we serve and part of that was to break a couple stigmas which this kind of starts to go into the equity part but there's stigma around death and hospice. There's stigma around homelessness. How does someone find themselves in that predicament? And how can we just start using human lives, faces, voices to maybe shed a little more understanding on how someone might find themselves in that situation? Maybe it was of absolutely no faults of their own and just circumstances led to this and now they're here and they need our help and I found people were really ready and willing to kind of share their life stories with me knowing that it was gonna benefit a good cause, knowing that it was gonna hopefully change some minds and open some hearts. And so we just started collecting, how did you get here? What was your backstory? Where are you from and what experiences have you had? And then the most important part to any story is the struggle really because then you get to share the overcoming of that and that's what we all really enjoy, right? Is how did someone take a tricky situation and turn it positive? And maybe it's just their perspective. Maybe their circumstance actually changed. Maybe something about them changed or their environment changed but we love to hear stories of people overcoming and nonprofits are absolutely flooded with these because we see really unique situations and all of us are solving a problem. So it's focusing on this, starting with the struggle but then focusing on, okay, how do we overcome this? How do we triumph this together? And with the help of the organization but then also with the help. So this is the other thing that I always try to share is you're giving the donor an opportunity to be the hero of the story too because we all need the donors. We need the volunteers, we need the support. We can't solve problems on our own. And so how do we invite the community to kind of join in on that story as well and say, here's several different opportunities to serve your community. If this story touched you, let's make the change in other lives, just like this one. So as part of this then, let's get into the topic and the discussion of equity in storytelling. This is what I think Jared and I were so fascinated by. So talk to us about that and share with us what this actually means. So first, it's really important to think that as the storyteller, you're just the messenger. So to start with, I know that we talk a lot about the ethics around storytelling, right? We don't want to exploit people and we definitely don't want to change their stories to benefit us better, right? So this is a question that I get quite a bit where people are pretty uncomfortable sharing stories sometimes because they feel like they're maybe crossing a line in terms of privacy. I think a lot of the times we're kind of conditioned like don't ask questions, right? Like don't ask questions that are gonna be too personal or hard hitting. And so really you need to start with just thinking, I'm the messenger here. I'm giving somebody an opportunity to use their voice to make a difference. They don't have to take that opportunity if they don't want to. And you definitely wanna get permission, right? You wanna get these permission slips and writing before you start collecting stories and then sharing them without consent. But if you have that consent, you're really giving someone a platform to use their voice to maybe shed light on authentic diversity, right? Like this is my story, this is my background and this is where it gets really important because like I said, stories are so emotional and stories are a connector. And so maybe when we're talking about deals like quality and equity, we're really wanting to give people an opportunity to say, this is my background. This is where I come from. I can take pride in my unique experience and maybe I can teach you a thing or two about why I am the way I am, why I'm proud to be who I am and we can see these stories that might start to change paradigms for people. And I think that it's just one of the most effective ways really to have someone think, oh, okay. Yeah, their experience is very different to mine and maybe I can challenge myself on that a little bit. Right, maybe I can look at a new script. A new script, exactly. And maybe we can start to engage in some meaningful dialogue because of that. And so you really, to preserve the story though, you wanna get a lot of these firsthand accounts, which is why I always say, start with the conversation, but use as many quotes as you can, try to preserve the integrity of that story so that if the person hearing the story was sitting next to the person the story was about, you don't want them to feel uncomfortable, like, oh, I feel like I'm taking advantage of this person. All right, Jared, you had a, I'm sorry. Jared, you had a question. Well, so much of this reminds me, Julia, yesterday was a natural day of empathy and talk about tell stories and how it, we can shape our opinions by relating to stories for perspective. This just so much reminds me and really, it's what yesterday has asked that national day of empathy. So I had to address because I thought, wow, what a great tie-in to yesterday's national day. Yeah, exactly. Well, Madison, let me ask you going the other direction. How should a nonprofit recognize when their story's not equitable? I think the litmus test is really asking the person the story is about if they're comfortable with it. You know, if you're collecting the story, then send them a draft before you publish it. You know, are you telling their story in a way that best represents them? You know, are they comfortable with that? And also, you know, whose stories are you telling? Are you telling just kind of one side of the story or are you making an effort to really gain a lot of different perspectives? Because, you know, even in any organization, you're gonna have all kinds of different, you know, backstories and upbringings and viewpoints. And so are you making an effort to really try to honor all of those different valuable insights so that we're getting the whole picture and not just, you know, I think definitely, you know, working with the person that the story is about in a close way, I think is a good way to start and making sure that, you know, they're happy with what you're sharing. So then let me go a little bit further and ask, how do you teach your nonprofit team that's gonna be collecting stories and storytelling to be more equitable? I mean, because I feel like this is in the nonprofit sector, a really big topic that we haven't been really looking inwards on. We've been pushing it out. We've been talking about, you know, the issue of being equitable, especially when it comes to certain sectors, like, you know, the justice community, things of that nature, but going a little bit deeper within our own organizations, how do we do that? I think it's so much about conversation. I still think it's really about getting feedback from a variety of people. And if you don't know, then ask, you know, if you don't know if someone's comfortable with something, then ask. And if there's something they're uncomfortable with, you know, bring it up. I think having, you know, engagement with your staff and, you know, getting fresh perspectives and fresh ideas is the whole point of storytelling in the first place. And so I think really it's about just having those conversations and, you know, what are we missing? Think about, you know, all the different people that you serve, you know, who's flying under the radar and should we reach out to them and see how they feel? You know, I think that just having an open dialogue is step one really when it comes to, you know, making sure that all the bases are covered. And, you know, do your research. There's a lot of articles out there on, you know, on this topic and really it's kind of, it is, you're right. It's almost this new emerging topic. So I feel like there's a lot of people going out there and speaking on it. But again, you know, even me answering the question is just my perspective. So I just think that trying to gather perspectives and being open-minded, you know, letting maybe your volunteers come forward and say, hey, this is my experience. And, you know, then asking the board, hey, this is my experience. Asking your, you know, your stuff. Think of all the different people that are involved with your organization. And you're gonna get all kinds of different feedback, I think. You know, even the donors, you know, what do you want to hear more of? What questions do you have? And I have a question, organic question. We warned you, we're various people. My question, Madison, and I know you said, you know, you still tell Richard's story and it still gives you chills. When do we know that we've out, we've outused or played a story? Like, when is it time to put it to bed? Got that question. And it's different for every organization. So different organizations are gonna have different story shelf life, we call it. Because, you know, you might be dealing with a story of a child, maybe, and then you're going to follow their whole transformation through school. And you can continue to show that name and update that, you know, transformation story. Maybe it's a health transformation. Maybe it's, you know, if you have these ongoing clients that you're serving, then I think that story can be shared for, you know, years. Also, you can share the same story with new donors. So I share Richard's story on, you know, different talks that I give, but this is the first time that you've heard it, you know? So also think about maybe trying to segment your donors, you know, as you're onboarding them and having a welcome series with maybe some of your older stories, but this is new to them. So if you have a really solid story, you can still, you know, continue to use it. Maybe just don't, you know, use it every week with your, you know, current donors. I try to collect new stories every year. I mean, based on my organization because of the nature of the work that we do. But I think you kind of just need to look at your organization and your work and think, okay, what is it that we do? How often, you know, do we get new people in or new people that we're serving? And how, you know, frequently do we do messaging? I mean, I really think that the question kind of depends on your, you know, communication style. You know, if you're very active on social media and you're posting almost daily, then, you know, try to collect new and new stories. But if, you know, if maybe you just reach out with a monthly newsletter, then you might not need to get as many. But yeah, I think any story that's been collected can be useful because you're always trying to reach new people. You know, I think one of the things too that nonprofits don't do enough of, and that is to invest in the origin story. Like what, because so often we find nonprofits are funded and founded and funded by some sort of passion in the beginning. And oftentimes there are people that have had a firsthand experience with whatever the problem is they want to solve. And then over time, you know, those people move on. I mean, they might pass away. I mean, it could be decades. If not, you know, centuries go by. And I think that's a really important thing to tag back to. And I'd love for you to maybe just address that briefly. That's a fantastic point, you know. And just as a nonprofit has an origin story, you know, we all have origin stories. And so encouraging the board to consider what it is that got them interested. How can they pack it so that when they go out on your behalf, you know, they're able to share that. And, you know, we are all involved in the missions that we're involved with for a reason. And you hit the nail on the head. Chances are great that it's because, you know, we had some kind of tie to the mission ourselves. You know, maybe we had a family member who experienced something similar. But yeah, you're totally right. I mean, when it comes to the nonprofit's origin itself, you know, I think especially with a lot of the smaller ones, the founder may still be running it. And it's really important to remember, you know, why you got started in the first place, because, you know, I think a lot of the times with nonprofits, we're all wearing so many hats, right? Like, you know, we're small staffed for the most part, at least, you know, the smaller nonprofits that we see so many of, they're doing great work and they're exhausted. I mean, we get kind of burned out. So revisiting why, you know, you got started in the first place, like you said, that origin story might even be a helpful process for you to say, okay, have me to sit down and I'm gonna write this and I'm gonna start sharing this on a regular basis because this connects me to why I wake up and do what I do every day. Right, so important. Well, it's hard to believe, you know, our time is almost over. And I wanna kind of frame this back up with how do we know if we're being successful? Because, you know, I think you can meet with somebody or talk to somebody or run a video and you'll be like, oh, wow, that's great. But how do we know if we've been effective and that we have been equitable in that process? Sure, I think, you know, the proof is in the pudding when it comes to your engagement rates. I mean, now with the digital era, it's so easy to measure when people are interested in what you're saying, right? Because you're gonna get more open rates. You're gonna get more likes on social. You're gonna be able to measure, you know, who's clicking through and doing that call to action. So, you know, start testing your stories and seeing what is getting the most engagement, you know, on your social platforms and on your email constituents. And then of course, you know, we're all seeking that funding too. And so, you know, how is the storytelling, you know, once you switch your messaging, are you seeing more donations? Are you seeing more volunteers? You know, I think you can kind of see some quick results really with this. And, you know, now we have more access than ever to start sharing our stories to tons of people via, you know, social media, via our, you know, digital events now that people are hosting and you get pretty immediate feedback. So I would just track how your, you know, engagement rates and your open rates. And then of course those donations are trending. As well as in videos, right? That's a big trend, videos. And we can even track and analyze how long are they staying on to watch the video? Exactly, yeah. That's a great point too. When are people losing interest? When do they click out? You can, yeah, you can track that now, especially on socials and all these different mediums now. So I think it's easier than ever to see what content your audience is liking and enjoying and what's being effective. Absolutely. Well, I think the effectiveness of it is only going to help you further the investment in navigating towards this way of communication. You know, if you start to see that you are engaging with donors and the community and decision makers, it makes it easier to make these investments. Exactly. Yeah, and, you know, if you get really good at storytelling too, I know something, you know, we've done at Morning Light is figuring out how to package those stories and almost deliver them on a silver platter to the media. You might get really great attention that way as well. You know, the media is always looking for these uplifting stories. And so if you get a really solid one and you can find the right person and just pitch the story itself, a lot of the times you'll find, I think that, you know, people are willing to kind of bite on that because it's work that's already been done for them. So finding good angles and then going to your local media, whether it's, you know, the radio or news stations, we, you know, Morning Lights had great success with that. We've been in the newspaper a couple of times and it's really just kind of figuring out how you can serve the media as well as the media serving you. Great. Yeah, undoubtedly. I mean, yeah, we've spent a lot of time and we continue to spend a lot of time talking about that on the nonprofit show because truly with 1.8 million nonprofits in this country and it's growing every day, there's a lot of competition for attention. And so I agree with you, how you deliver your message and you tell your story will then come forward in many, many other ways. You know, before we let you go, what are some great resources or ways for us to learn more about storytelling? You know, I'm a big believer in learning from how other people do it successfully, but what are some ways that you find inspiration and new ideas? Absolutely. You know, I'm always kind of searching other nonprofit websites and, you know, trying to gather, okay, why is this working? Why isn't this working? Just having conversations again with people, you know, how are you telling your story? I think, you know, just the basics of story telling, it applies to nonprofits, you know, so there's a lot of great books about storytelling. If you just go on Amazon and look up, you know, storytelling. I know I spent first couple of months just, you know, trying to listen and consume and, okay, what makes a good story? Okay, but these are the key components that, you know, I could talk for an hour and a half alone on just that. But, you know, there are great books out there on Amazon. And then I think, you know, a lot of platforms, a lot of blogs, I know I blog, you know, you said you poached me from Boomerang. I've written quite a few blogs for them and I have a, you know, whole webinar on there and a crash course of storytelling, you know, with some of the key components. But I think that a lot of these platforms are recognizing the value in storytelling. It's a big buzzword right now. And so I think just simple Google searching, honestly, you're gonna come up with all kinds of, you know, tips and tricks and techniques and campaigns and all these kinds of things that you can practice and implement. And it really is trial and error because every nonprofit is different. Your stories are going to be different. Your audience is going to be different. The platforms they're living on are going to be different. You know, maybe your audience is on Facebook all the time or maybe your audience is on Instagram all the time. And how is the storytelling different on those platforms? You know, so it's just kind of doing your research. But, you know, really start with your audience and consider where they are. And then you can, you know, tailor your storytelling to them. I love it. I love it. Well, this has been great. I appreciate, for some of you, we've had a few bumps and as we like to say, freezes in our show. So we appreciate you sticking through with us. Here's Madison's information. Morning Light is really a unique nonprofit doing the work that is so tough and so difficult on many, many levels. And their story in itself as a nonprofit is really an interesting journey to take a look at. You can reach out to Madison here. We've given you her information. And of course, we'll have this backup on our archives of the nonprofit show. So Madison, we are thrilled that you would join us. Again, I'm Julia Patrick. I've been joined by Jarrett Ransom, the nonprofit nerd herself. And we are so excited to have really brought another great conversation today. Again, we would not be doing this without our sponsors. So certainly we wanna make sure that we know how much we appreciate them and encourage all of our viewers to let them know as well how much they mean to all of us and what they actually do. You know, the nonprofit show, amazing week so far. Don't you think, Jarrett? Absolutely, Madison. And it's just been so great to have you on. So thank you for that. I'm looking forward to our upcoming guest as well, Julia, but great week so far. It's Wednesday, so can't believe it. Hard to believe, hard to believe. Well, hey, we end every episode with this mantra as I like to call it. And that is to say, stay well so you can do well. We'll see everybody back here tomorrow. Thanks so much. Thank you.