 And there we go. So hi everybody. My name is Larry Eames, my pronouns are he, him, his and I am the chair of the Godore Help. I'm an accidental government information librarian webinar series and welcome to the help. I'm an accidental government information librarian webinar series or help for short. This series is brought to you by the American Library Association's government documents round table and we thank you for coming. You will be muted during the webinar but we encourage you to participate in the chat. We'll get that sorted here in a hot second. And we also encourage you to add questions via the Q&A which is also an option should be along the bottom of your screen. We will save time for questions at the end but we encourage you to submit them as you think of them. And if there are any technical issues Kelly Wilson is on hand to help. You can either message her, me, all of us and we will help get sorted whatever is going on in the webinar. But of course worst case scenario as you've just heard this webinar is being recorded and it will be up on our YouTube channel. And of course also stay tuned for our full slate of fall webinars. We are open in September. So if you have any questions you can feel free to email me and I am gonna drop whole big list of things in the chat there that includes our YouTube it includes my email and it includes the link to our webpage. If you have any ideas we encourage people to submit them at any time we would love to get you on the roster. You can of course see more of our webinars on that YouTube channel that I mentioned. So without further ado let's get into today's webinar. Today's webinar is celebrating Constitution and Citizenship Day at the library. Constitution and Citizenship Day is a holiday celebrated at many libraries but coming up with programming is sometimes challenging. So the Godard Education Committee put together a guide to share ideas related to potential programs and exhibits. And in this presentation we will talk about the history of Constitution Day celebrations, legal requirements behind them and provide some examples of how libraries have celebrated that holiday. They will also discuss ways that you can promote those celebrations that you're going to be having. We are joined today by Ben Aldred. Ben is an assistant professor and reference librarian and liaison for the College of Urban Planning and Public Affairs and the Jane Adams College of Social Work as well as the government documents and maps librarian at the University of Illinois, Chicago. They currently serve as the chair-elect of Godard and his past chair of the Education Committee where they helped organize Godard's Constitution Day celebrations, LibGuide. They also do research on GIS technology in library collections and planning and asynchronous library instruction methods. So without further ado I am going to turn things over to Ben. Hello, thank you. Me, I'm just going to start sharing my screen. So welcome everyone. So I am here today to talk a little bit about celebrating Constitution and Citizenship Day at the library. This is an outgrowth of a project through the Education Committee of Godard. And I just want to express a lot of thanks to all the members of the Education Committee who contributed a lot of the content for the guide and helped with things. With a special thanks to Christine Stillwell who helped with the preparation of slides and very much helped this project along. So what are we going to cover today? We're going to cover a bit of the history of Constitution and Citizenship Day. Why libraries might want to celebrate Constitution and Citizenship Day. We're going to talk about some examples of celebrations, how exactly different places choose to celebrate and a little bit of where you can share ideas and get new ones. Because one of the goals in terms of the creation of this guide and such is to create an opportunity to share things. I'm going to mention that there might be a little bit of a sound interruption as the Chicago Air and Water show is this weekend and I'm in the flight path of the Blue Angels. So there might be a little bit of government outreach happening short, above me in a loud fashion. So if I look off to the side suddenly, that's what's happening. So Constitution and Citizenship Day is an official U.S. holiday. It is noted in the U.S. Code, 36 U.S. Code, subsection 106, September 17th is designated as Constitution Day and Citizenship Day. There's not a lot of details about it. It's fairly straightforward. A lot of it is the kind of key thing is that basically the president may issue a proclamation calling on officials to display the flag. But there's a lot of other things that have kind of come into this celebration and really made it so that it's a little bit more significant. So in terms of the history, there's a lot of ways that it kind of evolved. It really started in the states. Before it was a federal holiday, a lot of states celebrated it. The first was Iowa in 1911 that indicated that schools would celebrate it. In 1917, the Sons of the American Revolution formed a committee to promote this as a holiday. Separately, in 1940, Congress authorized the president to proclaim, I am an American day on the third Sunday of May. That observation would become Citizenship Day, would be marked in that way. By 1949, all 48 states had an official observation of Constitution Day. They had developed them individually. And this was not a national holiday, but a holiday celebrated around the nation. And then in 1952, Truman signed a bill that established Citizenship Day as September 17th. And in 2005, it was combined into a single holiday as part of an omnibus spending bill. It is a kind of odd way, the odd path that it took. And that gets us into why libraries might celebrate Constitution and Citizenship Day. So in public law 108447, the Consolidated Appropriations Act of 2005, in section 111, which gives a sense of how deep into this happened, one of the reasons for some institutions at least to celebrate it is that it is mandated by law for organizations to celebrate. So educational institutions that receive federal funds do need to hold an educational program on the US Constitution, on Constitution and Citizenship Day. This is what officially combined the two, that little in the heading by inserting Constitution Day and before Citizenship Day. And so one of the reasons to celebrate is that if you're an educational institution that receives any federal funds and one of the main ways that that happens is work study funds, then you may need to do this. Other parts of the university might take on this, but in my experience as a government documents librarian, this often falls to the government documents librarian as someone who might need to arrange this. But it's more than just by law. There are reasons to celebrate it beyond that. It really can be an opportunity. It really can be an opportunity to highlight the government publications in the library, make sure that people are aware that you have government publications in the library. So much of the history of the Constitution and the way that people engage with it does come from government documents. It can be a chance to encourage civic engagement by the community. There's a lot of ways that this can be an opportunity to help people engage with their government. It can be a chance to educate the public. There's a lot of opportunity for educational programs. I mean, the legal requirement is an educational program, but that's a very openly interpreted museum style exhibits or virtual programs are a very legal way of doing that. And it can also be a good chance beyond just highlighting the government publications in the library to bring attention to special library collections, like if you're a preservation steward and you have something very particular that has a potential constitutional tie, you can use it to do that either physically or virtually. So it's really an opportunity. And as part of that, we put together a guide that is a place to find ideas. The link is there. It's a fairly straightforward link, or at least as short as we could get it. And it really is a place that I can recommend as somewhere to find these ideas and to share ideas. I'll talk a little bit more about the sharing part in a bit. So let's get into some of these ideas, these things that are available. One of the easiest ways to do this is through an exhibit. You don't necessarily have to do active programming. You can do thematic exhibits that are related to the Constitution or to citizenship. This is a nice image from the National American Women's Suffrage Association records through the Library of Congress related to the Equal Rights Amendment. So an exhibit on thematic content either related to current events, maybe related to anniversaries, you could even choose one based on your local collections of what you have handy. So you can do a lot of content that way where you're doing thematic exhibits either physically in the library or in other part. If you have access to other campus buildings as a university library, you may be able to arrange something that way, but that can definitely count as something. You can also do virtual exhibits. Virtual exhibits are perfectly acceptable. And one of the things that you can do if you have a local technology for hosting websites, you could do it that way. But I find that platforms like LibGuides are actually very useful for this. This is my one that I prepared for this year on the 17th Amendment and I could host images, host content. So it's very easy to put together a virtual exhibit that can educate people on aspects of the Constitution or on issues related to citizenship. One of the major things that you can do, though, is programming. Doing programs in the library can be an excellent way of outreach, an excellent way of bringing people in. One option is a voter registration drive. This is a great opportunity for civic engagement. And September 17th, September seems like a very good time for voter registration. You know, mid-September is great in terms of the distance to the November general election. So there's still in, I think, almost all states, time to register at that point ahead of time and have your vote counted. And you could even within that content invite local representatives or state representatives to the library as part of that programming. Help encourage that and build that connection to the community. You could bring in lectures. Arizona State University has an annual Constitution Day lecture, which they bring people in. Some, you know, for something like a lecture, you can work with members of the community. You can work with library staff if you have people who have particular expertise. There's a lot of ways that you can, you know, bring people in. This might even be a chance to bring in a local representative to speak to be the library community. But it can be a good form of educational programming, especially in person. I'll talk a little bit about virtual programming, specifically in a bit. A lot of libraries do outreach for this day. They'll do some tabling in a public space. They may be out and about encouraging people to engage with their collections. It can be good for giveaways. I'll talk a little bit about materials that you could get to give away to the public at this point. But it can really be a chance to just make the collection more visible by getting out there and in front of people. You can even do unstaffed tabling if you leave out a table with, you know, with free content. It can be a way of having people become more engaged. A lot of different types of organization do this. This is the International Culinary. This is a culinary school that has a, has the library and does a little Constitution Day event. So you could even do a bit of exciting stuff. You know, have a chef dress up as Ben Franklin. One of the things that you can do is doing a local poster contest. Georgia Southern University does a an annual Constitution Day poster contest with winners and the galleries and such. And that can be an excellent way of sourcing content from the community that helps build engagement, a way of making something that people maybe feel a little more invested in and the people who are taking part in that may be inclined to bring more people in to see their contributions. And that could be a really good way of highlighting the, you know, the programming and bringing it before a wider audience. And I would be remiss if I didn't mention that the Government Information for Children group has an annual poster contest related to Constitution Day. It's worth checking out. A little bit of Godot cross promotion there. And one idea would be to potentially host a naturalization ceremony at your library. There's a little guide from 2020 about the potential of doing that. What better way to celebrate Citizenship Day than with a citizenship ceremony at your library? It could be a really nice opportunity to bring people in to highlight the naturalization process and really just give people something that could be very memorable and increase a positive association with the library in general. In terms of virtual programming, there is plenty of space. Virtual exhibits, of course, are a great opportunity. And I wanted to highlight this example from Columbia that really does give that opportunity for local content. They have the John Jay papers that are digitized online. And as a kind of founding father, writer of several of the Federalist papers, Jay provides a good opportunity for that. There's plenty of other things within that. You see that there are a few different programs that they have, but virtual exhibits can provide an excellent opportunity to highlight what you have at the library and really bring people in for special collections of that sort. You can also do virtual community engagement. This is a really, really lovely exhibit from Appalachian State in North Carolina where they have students do, you know, why is the US Constitution important to you? A little photo exhibit that shares individual answers on this. One of the tips to that I just want to mention is that it's important to start ahead of time if you're going to get community engagement. We have a little less than a month right now, so I would be starting around now to definitely reach out and see if you could bring people in. If you're on a university campus, it might be a nice thing to do in the kind of new student orientation period to bring people in and then highlight the library a little bit, just to provide an initial suggestion. At a public library, the back-to-school time often brings people into the library, families, and such, and so you can do a lot with that. And one of the events that I've seen a number of good examples on are online readings of the Constitution, specifically the preamble. They're not Article 1 and 2 and 3 and all, but it's specifically the preamble. And this can be done in person and there are places to do it in person, but doing it online does provide an opportunity to record and share later, and it also might provide an opportunity to bring someone in to take part in the reading who might have a tighter schedule and be a little harder to get, such as a local politician, your sitting representative, or a local actor. I mean, I know in Chicago, we have plenty of local theatrical types who might want a little exposure, but you could bring someone in who could do a very good reading and bring a little pep to it. In terms of material, there's a lot of stuff that you can give away. Of course, the Little Pocket Constitution, I have a stack of these here from the FDLP. I mean, a whole stack of them right here. They're a great giveaway for Constitution at Citizenship Day. You can advertise that people get a free pocket Constitution. It's a nice thing that people might show up for. There's a lot of material from the GPO that you can get. Some of that material are temporary promotional materials, but there are some interesting things that you can get that you might even do some smaller giveaways. I know that they have citizenship quiz flashcards that you could get a handful of for your library and maybe do a drawing for, for people who wanted to have those. There's material you can print out in terms of puzzles and games and such, and that can be a lot of fun. Here's a nice display that includes a few of those materials. You might get stickers or temporary tattoos or things like that. It's just always worth keeping an eye on that, and there is a link on the research guide for the FDLP promotional materials page because they often offer different things at different times that you might be able to get in smaller quantities that are excellent for giveaways. All in all, giving away stuff, presenting some content and bringing people in is a great opportunity. And I wanted to open some things up for questions, though I also want to mention, just to jump here, if you have suggestions, so you want to share some of the things you did, you have an interesting program that you did and want to share, one of the goals of the guide is to really make this a community project where we're able to help give people ideas. I know that I'm really happy to be speaking here because I was an accidental government documents librarian. It's not what I set out to do, though I'm very happy to have found a home doing it, and having guides like this really do help with some of these unexpected responsibilities. So if you have these ideas, we have suggestions to contact the head of the Education Committee and really to make sure to share because we have a lot of opportunities that way. So questions, I know there's a lot that you can do. This is just a sampling of things. Yeah, and thank you so much, Ben. Normally, I am scrolling notes to myself for questions to ask you in this intro. I've been scrolling notes to myself for programming ideas. This has already been great for us here at UCCS. And we do have one question in the chat from Jenny. Do you have to be an FDLP library to get promotional materials from the FDLP? I believe that you do because it's ordered using the normal GPO ordering process. So you need a library number and log in for that. It'll ship using your normal FDLP shipping process. It's a... I don't know... There are promotional materials that you can print out yourself that don't require any sort of log in. If I... Jumping back to the prior example, some of these are just printouts that you can download and print out yourself in terms of the word search and such. But a lot of the material does have to be that way. Yeah, although I suppose that could be a really good opportunity for coordinating with another depository library near you. Joint programming. We love to share the labor there. And we have another kind of question in the chat. Well, first to comment, I've been in and out of GovDocs since 1986. This is the first time I've heard that Constitution and Citizenship Day is required. And I would like to echo that, Jenny. I am also learning that for the first time here. Definitely lights a fire under me to get programming schedule. Yeah, it's... Well, I will say for 20 years of that time since 1986, it was not. It wasn't until 2006 that there was that requirement. So don't feel too bad about the since 1986 thing. But yes, it is required. I don't know the level of enforcement of this. No one has, as far as I know, lost federal funding because they did not have any Constitution Day content on the thing. And I don't know that it has to specifically be on September 17th. I know that this year, September 17th is a Saturday. And I know that our library is closed on Saturdays at present. So, you know, most of the time I think it's okay if it's done, you know, near Constitution Day. So, but I know that it can be a... that it might be a little bit of a question about, you know, the specifics. Yeah, that was the other kind of half of that question. And Kean also notes in the chat at the University of Washington since classes don't start until the last week of September, got to love that quarter system. We observed Constitution Day with a reading in the first week of October. So I think there is some of that flexibility there. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, one of the ways that I would say is a way of kind of putting yourself at ease is a virtual exhibit can be up over the course of that and not have to worry about it. And then any eventfulness can be, you know, in that week and really, you know, work at that point. But having the virtual exhibit up can kind of put your mind at ease that, yes, this is up during the legally required period. Yeah, absolutely. And so I encourage people to kind of toss some additional questions in the chat, but I'll ask one of my own here. What was one that you felt went, what was an instance of programming that you felt went really well? And what kind of made you feel that it was effective? I think there's a lot of things that I mean, so for my own experience of doing it, I think that I was really happy with some of the some of the library exhibit I did celebrating the 100th anniversary of women's suffrage because that was a good kind of constitutional holiday that people really could understand and connect with what mattered about like what changed, what mattered and being able to have some, you know, some maps and some photos and such for an exhibit that showed that off was a really good way of kind of highlighting that, you know, that's a thing that I tend to like is focusing on something that is, you know, potentially in the news or otherwise, you know, a kind of active topic of conversation. So that's a really good opportunity. Right on. We have another question in the chat from Jenny. Any ideas for the citizenship day aspect? Just learning it's part of the same day. I don't know why there was an idea that it was separate in July. And yeah, I also always kind of shorthand Constitution Day Constitution Day as Constitution Day. So yeah, any ideas for kind of highlighting that that after the conjunction? Yeah, I mean, you know, so like, you know, while hosting a citizenship like ceremony at the library would be a really big, you know, idea and one that could be done, you know, there are smaller ones. One of the ones that I saw that is an example that's on the LibGuide is a naturalization quiz that you do kind of a pub quiz style group event where you go through some of the questions that are in the naturalization test as kind of a highlighting to people what people go through in the naturalization process because there is a test. And you can actually one of the things that you can get from the FDLP is flashcards. The flashcards that GPO puts out is a great opportunity for that. And, you know, that can be a good way of highlighting just, you know, helping people understand what the naturalization process is and such. You could also within that just as a note do an invited speaker of someone who is a naturalized sis and then have them talk some with about their experience going through the naturalization process. It is a, you know, sometimes very long and convoluted process that I think a lot of people that is very opaque to a lot of people. And so an invited speaker related to that could be a very useful one. A one that could really educate the public in ways. So. Yeah, I love that idea. I just went to scroll down a note to myself as well. The idea of like pub atrivia in particular. Like I know we have kind of a campus gas for a pub. I want to do that now. Probably not this year, probably need to plan that more but I want to do that real bad. Oh, that would be, yeah. There's a lot of opportunities and, you know. Yeah. And we've got another kind of shout out to those flashcards that GPO publishes. We've also got non-GPO flashcards for naturalization quiz. And yeah, they're hard. Yeah. Yeah, they are challenging questions, you know. So it's really something that the people can learn a lot from. So again, questions are open. Feel free to toss those in the chat as you think of them. I would also open it up if anyone wants to talk, like to mention a particular thing that they enjoyed doing, you know, in that suggestions and such, you know. Feel free to mention in the chat if there was something you did or are planning on doing for Constitution and Citizenship Day. Yeah, I know for my part because I went to the University of Washington. So Kean shouting that out always makes me think of the Constitution Day reading and that feels like a really high bar to clear now that I'm a GovDocs librarian. But I've always kind of wanted to do something like that. So I love the like asynchronous recorded preamble reading. Even if you don't maybe get through like all the articles, so to speak. Yeah, yeah, logistical challenges. We love to hate them, they're everywhere. Oh, how do you get elected officials to participate? It's always good to bring in the people who legislate the library's funding and I'll have to realize especially these days. Yeah, it really is a, that's always a little bit of a tricky thing but it can be worth just reaching out. One of the things, I mean, this is specific to the FDLP program but technically speaking every depository library is sponsored within a congressional district or a senatorial district. And so you can reach out and remind them that that is how that happens and that this can maybe be an opportunity for them to come and tell people how much they love libraries. It's an opportunity. I've been able to facilitate a congressional visit not for a constitution and citizenship day event but for a local GovDocs group meeting where we got that. But it is useful in that way, that's something. Absolutely. We also have a question. How do you measure the success of constitution and citizenship day programs? Cost benefit is not trivial in allocating library or university resources. That is a very good question. In terms of that, I think that if I can interpret that a little bit in terms of how you would make the case for the funding in terms of I think measuring the success and the metrics is a little tricky. But one, highlighting that it is a legal requirement I find that that does carry a little weight in terms of that we do need to do something. And so it either way, we do need to do something because we have a legal requirement. But also I tend to lean into the civic engagement part of it. Really, it's hard to argue against community civic engagement as a library or a university that really wanting to educate people about their civic responsibilities, their rights in various ways really is often a persuasive argument. I think either for a university library or for a public library really just kind of highlighting a lot of that way. In terms of measuring success to kind of pull back to that bit, I think that one of the things that you can potentially do is if you're doing something like tabling, you might have like an inventory of how many things you give away as a measure of how many patrons reached. Doing some of that, you can really then do that. If you do virtual programming, like you can check on page views and such, you can really get a sense. And you can also, if you're doing in-person programming, do a count of audience members doing that kind of thing. That could be really useful. It just in terms of really having metrics that you can show as we reached this many people, we brought this many people to the library or did things like that. And so I think that those can be persuasive metrics in terms of thinking about how that works. And so that would be my advice for it in terms of things, so. Yeah, absolutely. And we're seeing some discussion about the logistics of doing one of those readings, either synchronous or asynchronous in-person, recorded in advance, combination of the two, all of that. And I think we have definitely all gotten better over the last few years at doing some of those recorded virtual programs. And Kate also notes in the chat, having those metrics have helped us get more funding in future years, which I think is, it's a really crucial reason to keep an eye on those things, absolutely. Yeah, and it's okay to, like one of the things is that it's an annual event. So it's okay to start small with some of your planned celebrations with the idea of building on those to increase the visibility and scale. Yeah, right on. I would say one thing to do with that just as a very general GovDocs plea is to take notes about your plans and such for succession planning purposes so that whoever comes in after you has a sense of what you've done and what they might do to build on that. Well, because part of the guide is to share within the community, but a lot of sharing within the community is sharing with your own successors in your institutions and such and making sure that people can continue these traditions that we have. Yeah, absolutely. You got to have that binder you can turn over if somebody gets hit by a boss the way that I've always shared that. So that kind of also sparks a question that I have also that's, what are some other ideas that you have for possible partners? Can we talk about elected officials? And I think we can talk about, at that level it's been kind of house rep, Senate rep, maybe some state reps. I know you've also made me immediately think of our regents in the CU system and you've mentioned sort of local actors, which of course made me immediately think of timeline out there in Chicago. So what other kind of ideas have you seen or have you had that you either have pursued or have wanted to pursue? I've seen some things, you know, on Appalachian state's campus, they have a number of things and for their voter registration drive they do as part of it. They have the campus Democratic and Republican student groups come to table along with them for the registration purposes just as a chance to engage with those groups for that. And in terms of that, that could also be a chance to partner with campus organizations. I know here at UIC we have cultural centers and that can be working with international students, some of whom are going through naturalization processes or can talk about aspects of that in terms of what it takes to get a visa and things like that, just to increase understanding. So like on a college campus, there are those organizations in your community, you might look for nonprofit organizations. If you looked at something like ProPublica's nonprofit search, which is publicly available, you can search for nonprofits that are in your local area and there might be some that are working on political issues that are working on issues with citizenship. They might be working on constitution-related issues and they might be a good source for speakers or other options because it really is, there are a lot of groups and I think outreach can really give a chance to bring people in. Right on. Oh yeah, and Jenny also calls out the League of Women Voters. Oh yes, definitely, definitely a very, an excellent group to reach out to, very, very devoted to just informing the public on voting. So. Yeah, and you had called out, essay are at the top of the presentation and kind of a timeline of Constitution Day. I'm gonna do my due diligence as a daughter. Daughters of the American Revolution, those chapters usually also have a Constitution Day committee that you can reach out to. Yeah. Oh, and often they have handouts as well in League of Women. We love other people giving us handouts. We love that. Yes, it's always nice when someone else picks up the printing costs and will help out with that. Yeah, and we've also just got a comment in Connecticut, the Constitution State. We're planning a celebration for when the fundamental orders get back from conservation work and that sounds very exciting. Jenny, I wanna hear about that when that happens. Please do a health webinar. That sounds very cool. Yeah, yeah, I know that, I know that, you know, that is an excellent, you know, an excellent option, you know, just to tie into, you know, the Constitution in general, you know, like when it comes to exhibits and such, it doesn't have to be very explicitly about the Constitution and something that's in there. I know a lot of folks did things with Equal Rights Amendment, which never made it all the way in, but was part of constitutional history, you know? And yeah, the, you know, as Bruce said, you know, things about failed amendments and such, but they're out there, so. Yeah, absolutely. And I think maybe speaking of failed things, we've had a lot of examples of really great programming that's gone really well, but also everything always falls apart sometimes. So have you had any experiences with Constitution Day programming that have just gone catastrophically poorly or even just like not really made the impact that you wanted them to make? And what did you learn from those? I think that I've learned a little bit in terms of, you know, I've had some that were not, were a little more modest than I would like, where, you know, like a book display that I don't know that anyone actually checked out the books on the book display, they saw the books, but I don't know that any of them got increased circulation. I think that the thing that often happens for me is tracing back some of the less successful Constitution Day celebrations were the years when I forgot about Constitution Day until September, and I'm like, oh, oh yes, I need to do something about this. And so now I have a reminder in August that indicates start planning Constitution Day, because then I'm like, oh yes, I need to start figuring out what to do with that. And a lot of the time that's just making sure that I have an updated exhibit or something like that, but that is the source of a lot of the kind of failure. So. Yeah, and I know that's one of the reasons we wanted to get you in towards the top of August was to give people that time to plan. And Kate notes, to me, the failed programming is usually due to internal bureaucracy and red tape. And oof, yes. And I find that one of the most effective, one of the most effective tools for cutting through bureaucratic red tape is time, is just setting out ahead of time and just being like, I'm gonna go ahead of time and make sure that I'm repeating those like prompts that's like, so can we get money? Can we get money? You know. And Jenny also includes the, or having an exhibit in a location doesn't get much traffic. I think that's both something that causes problems and a way to get past red tape is just like doing things quietly in the back room. Yes, yes. Well, do you have any kind of closing thoughts for us? Anything that you wanna impart to the audience here? I think my main closing thought would be to encourage people to visit the guide and kind of see the projects, many of the things that I highlighted today are on there as well as a number of others that are worth it. And as you do celebrations and such, definitely lean on the Godort community. This is a good group that is absolutely happy to help and provide ideas and such. If you do something fun, if you have something up on YouTube or elsewhere, send a link to the education committee and we'll see about getting it up onto the LibGuide because it really can be a great source for ideas because we all don't need to reinvent the wheel. We can really borrow wheels from each other. Thank you. Yeah, absolutely. I hope that this webinar series is a wheel that other people can borrow. So I wanna say thank you everyone for joining us. And thank you Ben for presenting. This has been super informative. I know I've written a bunch of stuff down and we really appreciate all of you joining us. We will sort of close things out here at the 46 minute mark. So thank you all so much for joining us and we hope to see you back in September.