 My name is Professor Carol Tan. I'm the head of the School of Law here. Many of our students studying law, particularly those at postgraduate level, are interested in issues of human rights and international law, inequality and social justice. So again, as Andrea said, our focus is Asia, Africa and the Middle East, but we of course realize that these themes permeate so much of the world outside of those regions. So it's entirely appropriate that we have a debate on Nicaragua this evening. So this evening, I'm going to first introduce our two speakers, and then each of them is going to speak, after which there will be a little bit of time for questions. We are restricted by the room booking, so we have to be out of here by 7pm, I'm afraid. So without further delay, our first speaker is Bianca Jagger. Bianca has dedicated her life to campaigning for human rights, civil liberties, peace, social justice and environmental protection throughout the world. She was born in Managua, Nicaragua. She left her native country to study political science in Paris with a scholarship from the French government. In 2005, she founded the Bianca Jagger Human Rights Foundation and she is Council of Europe Goodwill Ambassador, a member of the Executive Director's Leadership Council for Amnesty International USA and IUCN Bond Challenge Ambassador. Bianca Jagger is the recipient of numerous prestigious awards, including the Right Livelihood Award, also known as the Alternative Nobel Prize, the United Nations Earth Day International Award, the Amnesty International USA Media Spotlight Award for Leadership and the American Civil Liberties Union Award, amongst other awards. Miss Jagger has been awarded four doctorates, a Doctorate of Human Rights from Rohampton University, one in law from the University of East London, one in Human Rights from Simmons College, Boston and a Doctorate of Humanities from Stonehill College, Massachusetts. Our second speaker this evening is Felix Maradiaga. He is a Nicaraguan academic and social entrepreneur, currently recognised as one of the main opposition voices to the Ortega regime. After serving as Secretary-General for Nicaragua's Ministry of Defence between the years 2002 and 2006, Felix dedicated himself to strengthening peace, democracy and the rule of law in his country. He is currently Director of the Institute of Strategic Studies and Public Policies, one of the top think-thanks in Latin America and has previously led several civil society organisations. He has widely published on Central American Affairs and holds a degree in public administration from the Harvard Kennedy School and also in renewable energy engineering from the University of Barcelona. Felix is a member of the World Economic Forum and the Aspen Global Leaders Network. In 2016, Forbes magazine named him as one of Central America's most influential people. Welcome, both of you. Good afternoon. Thank you for being here. I would like to thank Baroness Helena Kennedy, who is here today. It is a pleasure for us to have her. And to all you friends and friends from Nicaragua who are accompanying us as well, I'd like to thank SOAS for giving me the opportunity to organise this symposium. Thank you very much. It really means a lot to us. I don't know how much you all know about what is happening in Nicaragua. But the first things that I can tell you is that once upon a time, 39 years ago, I supported the Sandinista Revolution. And I, like thousands of millions of people throughout the world, believe that the Sandinista Revolution was the answer for the developing world. And therefore, one of the reasons why I feel so strongly about what is happening in Nicaragua today is because I feel betrayed. I feel betrayed by a man who was regarded by many as a revolutionary leader, who today is a murderer's dictator. The brutal repression of Danielo Tejas regime against the unarmed population during the last seven months has resulted in more than 500 extrajudicial executions, almost 4,000 wounded, hundreds of missing people, more than 600 prisoners charged with forced accusations and the use of unspeakable torture. This strategy of repression and crimes against humanity prompted members of the U.S. Congress to propose the bill of law S3233, Human Rights and Anti-Corruption Law of Nicaragua of 2018. The law was approved unanimously in the Senate on November 27, 2018. Ortega has declared a war on the civilian population of Nicaragua. It has declared a war on students, on poor farmers, of what we call campesinos, on workers, on journalists, on human right defenders, on medical personnel because they refuse to accept that they shouldn't treat the wounded, the people or the students or anyone who was wounded who was protested. And he's even persecuting the church. I will tell you a little bit about why as well I feel so strongly. I was in Nicaragua in May and June and I went to Nicaragua, I have been to Nicaragua twice with Amnesty International with who I work very closely. And I didn't begin my denouncing Daniel Ortega seven months ago. I began denouncing Daniel Ortega the moment I knew that Daniel Ortega had abused sexually his stepdaughter, Soyl America, who was, as she says, nine years old at the time. So in 2017 I went with Amnesty International to release a report called Rights for Sale. That report was denouncing the project for an inter-Syanic canal that would have been an environmental crime. And when I was there I went to very remote areas of Nicaragua and marched with the poor farmers who had been marching for three years at least and who had been persecuted by Daniel Ortega. But because there were the poor farmers and because people in the city don't really pay much attention to what happened to farmers and to poor farmers in particular, not just in Nicaragua, but in many parts of the world. And I was able really to realize the persecution that they were victims of. Then this year in May I went with Amnesty International again to release a report called Shoot to Kill. And this report, if you haven't seen it, it's very important because what it shows and what it reported was that Daniel Ortega policy was not just to harm or to use bullets that wouldn't kill but really to kill the students who began to demonstrate sometime in April, the April 19 of this year. And then later on I went and while I was there I was able to visit the students who were barricading themselves in universities and visited a university called the Yunnan and that's where I met some of the students who are today in jail. One of them is called Levi Rugama Artola and the other one is called Jaritsa and Victoria. And I got to know these kids and to see their desire to live in Nicaragua where there was democracy, justice and freedom. And every time I think about when I am campaigning and I campaign tirelessly to get sanctions against the government I campaign to get the students and all the political prisoners who are at least more than 600 in Nicaragua today to be released and to denounce the crimes against humanity that are being perpetrated by Daniel Ortega. The brutal repression of Daniel Ortega's regime against the unarmed population during the last seven months has resulted in more than 500 extra judicial executions as I said before. Almost 4,000 wounded, hundreds of missing people more than 600 prisoners charged with both accusations and the use of unspeakable torture. The strategy of repression and crimes against humanity as I said had prompted Congress in the U.S. to impose sanctions but there are other countries and we are hoping and we are campaigning to get the European Union as well to impose sanctions on Nicaragua. The five, the six students of which I have been talking to you I mentioned three that is as well Byron Strada Correa Leon Christopher Narobi Olivas and Leon Juan Pablo Alvarado Martinez Anjaritza and Levies and Victoria as I mentioned. We're supposed to have a trial a few days ago that trial has been postponed for Monday International Human Right Day I will be in Scotland in Parliament speaking about human right and you can be sure that I will be speaking about the students and all the other students who are in jail and who have been assassinated. There are 50 students who are in jail with that they have been already charged. There is 150 who have not been charged and there is 70 students who have been killed in Nicaragua but it's not only students who have been killed Daniel Ortega has killed more than 23 children under the age of 18 some as young as three years old. I was wondering what I could tell you when I was going to speak to you and I think that one of the things that a lot of people in the left have not understood is why a revolutionary leader has become a dictator. Well it didn't happen overnight it took 39 years to develop. As you may know the people of Nicaragua laid by the Sandinista liberation from the FSLN overthrew Anastasia Somoza the last dictator of the dynasty in 1979. The Somoza's rule from 1936 to 1979 with the support of the US during this years they consolidated their power using corruption tyranny and repression. They use a strategy of systematic and serious violations of human right. Extradjudicial executions, torture, intimidation and censorship of the press. These are exactly the same method that have been used today by Daniel Ortega against the unarmed population in Nicaragua. In just one more thing that I must tell you is the persecution that is taking place as we speak against the media in Nicaragua. It is not only all of those people that I mentioned but members of the media, of the independent media in Nicaragua are being put in jail, are being forced to flee the country and today in Nicaragua they are 53,000 people that we know that have fled to the neighboring countries that have fled to Costa Rica and that have fled to Honduras. Daniel Ortega was one of the nine commandantes of this. No one could have suspected that he will end up becoming another murderer's dictator 39 years later. Ortega assumed the position of coordinator of the five persons, Junta Nacional de Reconstrucción which was composed of him, of Sergio Ramirez as vice president, Moises Hassan Morales, Alfonso Rovello and Violeta Barrios de Chamorro who later on became president of Nicaragua. Within a year Alfonso Rovello and Violeta Chamorro resigned from the position when they realized that they did not have any real power. They were replaced by Arturo Cruz, Rafael Cordova-Rivas and in July the U.S. pressured the FSLN to broaden the junta and the other three additional members. In 1984 Ortega was elected president for a six-year period while the country was torn by the Contra War financed by the U.S. and let me tell you, I campaign against the Contra War because I have always opposed any foreign intervention in Nicaragua a position that I continue to have today and some of you will say, well, but Congress has passed a bill that will impose sanctions in Nicaragua that is a very different thing than invading and financing a Contra War against the people of Nicaragua. In 1990 to 1996 as part of the Esquipula's Peace Accord Ortega and the FSLN called for an early presidential election perhaps this were the only honest elections in Nicaragua, in Nicaragua's history. They took place with international observers from the Carter Center along with the United Nations and the OAS for internal funding for the opposition. I was a witness, I was an observer to this election. To everyone's surprise, not to mind, Violeta Barrios de Chamorro won the election. The FSLN remained the most powerful at that time, most powerful political power with control over the Army, the police and the unions. After his defeat, Ortega pronounced his famous phrase I will govern from below and use his social and political forces to destabilize the Chamorro government with the strikes, demonstrations and repeated calls for the revolutionary reconstruction of the Nicaraguan society. Daniel Ortega directed La Piñata. This was for many of us who had supported this revolution, the call to realize that this was not the kind of revolutionary leader that we have expected them to be. La Piñata was a full-scale privatization of state properties that passed into the personal hands of the FSLN leadership. This marked the first chapter of the ethical suicide of the FSLN. The Sandinista lost their moral authority. In 1996, Ortega lost the presidential election to Arnoldo Aleman, named by Transparency International as the ninth most corrupt leader in recent history. In 2001 to 2006, Ortega once again lost the presidential election this time against Enrique Bolaños and a triangle began to be developed between Aleman, Bolaños and Ortega. During his presidency, Bolaños initiated an investigation of Arnoldo Aleman and in December of 2000 and 2002, he was formally charged with money, laundry, embellishment and corruption. And in December 2003, he was sentenced to 20 years prison term. Between 1990 and 2007, Daniel Ortega manipulated the legal institution, organized general strikes and he made the government ungovernable. This marked the second chapter in Ortega's suicide, ethical suicide. In fact, many left the ranks of the Sandinista front claiming it was no longer Sandinismo, from now on it was Ortegismo, centered around one person and a close circle. The pact, I think that one of the things that is more important for people to understand, is how did Daniel Ortega consolidated his power? What were the pact that he struck through those years that allowed him to become who he is today? In 1998 Ortega began negotiations with Arnoldo Aleman. In 1999, the agreement between then materialized into the constitutional reforms of the electoral law that were implemented in 2000. During this period, it was when Daniel Ortega began to soil America denounce that he had abused her. And for his sexual abuse from the age of nine. But what is very interesting to note is that her mother, Rosario Murillo, deserted her daughter and stood behind Daniel Ortega. Which will explain to you why Rosario Murillo is today the vice president of the country. From 1996 to 2001, Arnoldo Aleman with the support of Daniel Ortega enacted neoliberal policies. He privatized health care, education and social security. In 2006, the pact allowed Daniel Ortega to win the elections with 38% of the vote. Thanks to the constitutional change, agree with Arnoldo Aleman. This modification of the electoral rules for presidential election reduced the threshold to win the presidency in the first round from 45 to 35% of the vote. A few months before the elections, Daniel Ortega and the parliamentary group of the FSLN supported the adoption of a law that will prohibit abortion even in cases of rape. The legislation repealed the law that had been in place since the presidency of President Zelaya in 1893. The legislation took effect on July 2008 under Ortega presidency. 2007 to 2011, Daniel Ortega assumed the president in January of 2007. In 2009, the Supreme Court revoked Arnoldo Aleman's sentence of 20 years in prison. This was the result of a secret pact between Aleman and Ortega who has considerable influence over the court, if not total control of the court. Ortega dismantled all legal institutions. He proceeded to centralize power, achieving control over the executive, the legislative, the judiciary, the Supreme Court, the Supreme Electoral Court, and, in addition to that, the municipalities and universities. In 2011, Ortega unconstitutional re-election. The Nicaraguan constitution prohibited a candidate for president to run for two consecutive re-elections if they had already been president and he had already been president two times. Ortega was re-elected with a judicial ruling that violated the constitution. In 2004-14, he reformed the constitution to allow himself to have an indefinite re-election. 2009 to 2016, with massive financial support from Venezuela, Ortega and family acquired most media networks and expanded their economic dominance. One important thing for you to understand with regards to this particular thing is the fact that he controlled the information that the people in Nicaragua had. And that is the reason why those few independent media that exist today in Nicaragua, that's why Daniel Ortega is out to destroy and to put them in jail to make them flee the country. If necessary, to kill them because, by the way, already one journalist was killed while he was reporting what was happening in Nicaragua. Presidential elections in 2016, he is re-elected for a second consecutive time. He pushed through a court ruling that will allow him, as I said, indefinite re-election. He named his wife Rosario Murillo the vice president and, presumably, his hair apparent, about two-thirds of the electorate stayed at home. April 2018, the unraveling and the order to shoot on site. In light of the massacres, Ortega was deserted by many of his allies. I will say by most of his allies. The four pillars that allow Ortega to solidify his power were one, a pact with his three, with three of the wealthiest families and the business sector, given them tax breaks that will make even the Republicans in the U.S. blush. Ortega embraced neoliberal policies. So let me explain to all of those who still have illusions and who speak about Nicaragua being a leftist government. We don't have a leftist government in Nicaragua. There has been a long time since Nicaragua and the Nicaraguan government was a leftist government. And I have been saying this. It's been for me a shock when I have discovered the pact with the wealthiest family and with the private sector. When the people in Nicaragua and the students in particular and the poor farmers began to demonstrate in the street, when there were barricades throughout the countries and the students were in the university, there was a call and I was there and I made that call to the members of the private sector, which is called Kosep in Nicaragua, to call for an indefinite strike. During the period when Somoza was in power, there was an indefinite strike that lasted, I think I may be wrong, 19 days. But today in Nicaragua there is not been any strike that have lasted more than one day. And that, once again, I make an appeal to the private sector in Nicaragua to support the people of Nicaragua and call for an indefinite strike. And not to make any more pacts with Daniel Ortega. Second, a sector of the Catholic Church, Ortega posed as a born-against Christian in one of his election. He received the support of the late Cardinal Obando Ibravo. And as a payback for his support, Ortega introduced the anti-abortion laws, even in cases of rape. But let me explain something. The Catholic Church today in Nicaragua is completely different. The bishops that have promoted a negotiation, a national dialogue, have been risking their life to support the people of Nicaragua and to denounce what Daniel Ortega is doing. That is why Daniel Ortega is accusing them of being golpistas, which mean people who are trying to overthrow the government. No, they are not trying to overthrow the government. All they're trying to do was really to bring the people of Nicaragua from all political sides to a negotiating table. Three, Venezuela gave tremendous financial support to Ortega with the country's oil, but the oil and money had now run out. Ortega claimed to enforce U.S. interests in the region. For a while, the Ortega government appeared to be supporting the U.S. interests by controlling drug traffic and migration to the U.S. with its security police and military. He also allowed sweatshirt, neoliberal trade and financial investment. As you can see, today Daniel Ortega is left with his repressive state apparatus. The police, the riot police, the paramilitary forces, a mighty arsenal of weapons. Much of this came from Russia, an increasing complicity of the army. So I, as a Nicaragua, will not rest, will continue to do what I've been doing, which is to lobby governments throughout the world, to lobby the European Union, to lobby the Latin American countries so that the OAS can impose the democratic charter on Daniel Ortega, his wife and the government, and for governments to realize that the longer they let Daniel Ortega, the more people will be killed, the more people will be tortured, the more people will be put in jail that are innocent, the more people will flee the country, and that we must, we must do everything in our power to stop the killings and the murders. And I appeal to all of you to support it. Please follow me on Twitter at Bianca Jagger, on Facebook at the Bianca Jagger Human Drive Foundation, and on Instagram at Bianca Jagger. I thank you for being here and for your support. Thank you very much. And just one last thing before I leave. In Nicaragua today, it's a crime to wear the flag. It is a crime to have the flag. It is a crime to walk and call for freedom in Nicaragua. Therefore, I'd like to join all of those who are criminals and to wear the Nicaraguan flag. Thank you for the opportunity to be here. In words of Spanish political scholar, Salvador Martí, with the return of President Daniel Ortega in 2007, Nicaragua turned, and I quote, into a hybrid regime. This type of regimes are also known as the liberal regimes or empty democracies. However, since April 8, 2018, as Bianca Jagger clearly explained, very few people in Nicaragua and around the world doubt that Nicaragua has turned into a fully fleshed dictatorship. There is no other way to define a political regime which, in addition to its track record of human rights violations, has demolished all democratic institutions, including the judicial system, the electoral system, and even national police. In April 2018, Nicaragua experienced anti-government protests that have resulted in close to 600 people killed, thousands more injured, 580 political prisoners, and close to 70,000 Nicaraguan refugees dispersed in several countries such as Costa Rica, Honduras, Guatemala, the United States of America, Spain, and Panama, among many other countries. In April, demonstrators took the streets calling for democracy, respect for human rights, and the resignation of Daniel Ortega. The governmental response was shocking. A shoot to kill policy, which even included police snipers shooting against an armed population as I was able to witness myself on Mother's Day on May 30. Why Nicaraguans went out to the streets in April and continued to build a resistance movement against Daniel Ortega and his family? Why so many former Sandinistas have joined the resistance? It was clear that the overwhelming majority of Nicaraguans had had enough of a regime that was able to consolidate due to a number of factors that I will try to illustrate. One of the most important factors is precisely Nicaragua's short-lived democratic experiment and therefore the absence of robust institutions capable of limiting the power of so-called caudillos. There are as well complex aspects of political culture that favor the emergence of authoritarian leadership, the caudillos I just mentioned. In the absence of the rule of law, authoritarianism undoubtedly deforms into tyranny. That is what happened to Daniel Ortega. Originally seen as a caudillo that is a charismatic, nationalistic and authoritarian leader who abandoned his Marxist origins and unexpectedly turned to conservative policies Ortega has now perceived, even by former allies as Bianca, as a dictator who was an ally of the Sandinista Revolution in the 1980s, a very brave voice against the invasion. The dynamics of hybrid regimes. Why some countries remain stable over time while others become either more democratic or more autocratic are not easy to understand. Nicaragua has called the attention of a number of scholars interested in democracy building precisely because many of the prevailing institutions and informal rules that shape the political context are only explained through a deep understanding of our history. The country's violent political history has placed it among the poorest countries in Latin America. Yet, obstacles towards inclusive economic growth and democratic reforms persist not only in the more visible norms dictated by national laws, public policies and bureaucracies, but in the most intricate beliefs, legacies and expectations of the act of the political system. This set of beliefs is essentially the political culture. European traveler, for example, in the 19th century, Jeffrey Roche coined Nicaragua an ungovernable country with elites and I quote incapable of reaching basic political consensus. Likewise, when describing the fragility of national identity, many Nicaraguan intellectuals use harder words to describe this social phenomenon. For example, Nicaraguan scholar Andrés Perez Valtolano called Nicaragua an implausible country. He said, and I quote, we failed despite having experimented with socialist models, military dictatorships and different shades of neoliberalism implemented by conservative and liberal governments. All of it to no effect. Almost 200 years of independence are Caribbean coast is still as isolated as when we set off our national adventure end of quote. Nicaragua citizenry entered the 21st century with unresolved issues of a fragmented society in the face of a fragile state. This social fragility is well documented by academic research, for example, in words of Justin Wolfe from the University of Nebraska, this lack of political consensus in Nicaragua and I quote provides key to understanding the rise of 20th century figures such as revolutionary Augusto Sandino and dictator Anastacio Somoza. End of quote. I will argue that Daniel Ortega is exactly the result of such deeply rooted authoritarian tradition, the Caudillo tradition. On the other hand, from the perspective of the uninformed outsider, Daniel Ortega has an electoral mandate that has started with the return of elected office in January 2007 and was supposedly reconfirmed through reelection processes in 2011 and 2016. However, one of the most fundamental aspects related to the political and human rights crisis in Nicaragua is the lack of free and fair elections since Ortega returned to power. In that sense, it's important to remember that prior to 2007 consecutive reelection was not allowed in the Nicaraguan constitution, yet Ortega ran for president in 2011 against the constitution on November 6, 2016 Nicaragua held general elections with again Ortega as candidate. In that regard, the massive protests that spontaneously erupted in April 2018 were deeply rooted in the lack of free and fair elections in Nicaragua. Since at least 2008, the credibility of the entire electoral system was strongly questioned by many sectors of the population and by several international organizations, including the European Union, due to irregularities which occurred during the electoral processes. For example, on January 2012, a group of eminent international electoral experts under the Carter Center issued the study mission report, which is widely available on the Internet. In its findings, the Carter report highlighted, and I quote, fraudulent elections. The study by the Carter Center said that, and I quote, the 2011 elections in Nicaragua were not transparent and none of the opposition parties accepted the results, end of quote. Yet, the November 2016 elections were organized by the same officials who contributed to the electoral frauds of 2008, 2011, 2012. Despite ample requests for greater electoral transparency, Daniel Ortega did not allow any democratic reform and even forced the National Coalition for Democracy at that time, the broader opposition alliance to withdraw from the 2016 elections. He achieved exactly what he wanted. By illegally dissolving the Coalition for Democracy, he was able to eradicate all opposition parties. On January 10, 2017, Daniel Ortega was sworn for another term as Nicaraguan president and his wife, Rosario Murillo, became the new vice president. Ortega and vice president Murillo were elected with 72.5% of the vote, but with a high abstention rate of 78.5%. The Sandinista National Liberation Front won 71 of the 92 seats in parliament. The PLC, which was one of the few parties that accepted the rules of the game imposed by Ortega, moved from having only two seats in parliament to having over 25 seats in parliament. The Coalition for Democracy, of course, was not allowed to run. In addition to the backsliding in the electoral system, since Ortega returned to power in 2007, the country suffered human right violations, which not only included restrictions on citizens' right to vote, but also obstacles to freedom of speech and press, including government intimidation and harassment of journalists and independent media. According to the CPDH, the Centro Poderechos Humanos and the Seni, the Centro Nicaraguanas Derechos Humanos, prior to 2018, at least 60 people were subject to extrajudicial killings. This was prior to 2018. The Ortega regime also signifies a severe challenge to independent media. More than 90% of all media outlets in the country are in some way controlled by government, many of them by Ortega's family directly. In 2016, the Inter-American Press Association reported on censorship of independent media in Nicaragua, concluding, and I quote, the authoritarianism of the Nicaraguanas has aggravated censorship, which creates greater risk for freedom of the press and democracy, end of quote. It is in this context of weak institutions that the new version of the Sandinista Party emerged. It has nothing or little to do with the idealistic Sandinista Party on the 1980s. The current Sandinista Party, widely defined as Ortegista, is an elaborate political intricacy, highly centralized around the Ortega family. The Sandinista Party has incorporated in the ruling an intelligent mechanism of councils and cabinet for citizens' power that report directly to Rosario Murillo and are distributed all around the country. These structures, also known as family cabinets, cabinetes de la familia, are guided by highly religious and mystical narrative as developed by Ms. Murillo. Since Ortega returned to power, the socialist ideology that guided the Sandinista Party in the 1980s has vanished, and to the shock and surprise of many people, it was substituted by an ideology based, and I quote, of family values, Christianity, nationalism and solidarity. End of quote. Under Vice President Murillo as I dialogue, the Sandinista Party is now a radical party which promotes nationalism at all costs. Any political idea that opposes the Sandinista Party, even in the most subtle way, is automatically accused to represent foreign interest. The Sandinista Party arouses popular enthusiasm by sophisticated propaganda techniques for anti-liberal, violent exclusionary agenda. The Sandinista Party of 2007 is effectively a new ideology, widely defined as Ortegismo, Ortegism, whether that is a branch of Sandinismo or not, that is open for debate, and is clear that it is one of the most controversial topics among progressives in Nicaragua. The truth of the matter is that the Sandinista Party is not only a movement plagued with political narrative that has nothing to do with the leftist movements of the 1980s. Let me give you some simple examples of Ortegism. Ortegism is currently one of the most fervent critics of the feminist and women movement in Nicaragua. The Ortega regime not only established some of the most strict laws in Latin America against women's reproductive rights, as clearly explained by Ms. Bianca Jaggar in her presentation, but has publicly defined the women's movement in Nicaragua as a sort of public enemy number one. Also, the Sandinista Party, a party that once welcomed international solidarity and became attracted to thousands of progressive friends around the world, has become the strongest anti-immigration force in Central America. Its anti-immigration stance allowed Ortega to become a close ally of the United States for many years prior to April 2018. Under Ortega, Nicaragua became a sort of wall to immigration from South America to North America. Many of you have followed the news, for example, of the close to 30,000 undocumented refugees moving from South America to the North that were not allowed to pass through Nicaraguan territory, particularly Cuban migrants. Even more so, Ortega has recently striped of the Nicaraguan nationality. Several people who immigrated to Nicaragua in the 1980s became naturalized citizens and just because writing a tweet or original political idea have been striped from their Nicaraguan nationality. The cases of Anna Kiros and Alberto Boshi are only two of the most visible examples. Another major factor of Ortega returns to power was its strong relationship with the main representatives of the most powerful economic groups in Nicaragua. As president-elect, on December 15, 2016, one of his first acts was to hold a meeting with members of COCEP to define as what he called his development axis. On that occasion, Ortega affirmed, and I quote his own words, This is an unprecedented meeting, the beginning of our great alliance, end of quote. The outcome was mind-blowing. A central part of the pact with the private sector was to give COCEP the role of a consultative body for the government in the drafting of laws and regulations, the dream of any big business to write their own laws. In practice, Ortega had substituted Nicaraguan parliament by granting big business the capacity to draft the laws. From 2008 to 2016, COCEP drafted 70 economic laws and regulations that were passed by government. These laws gave unprecedented tax breaks to big business in Nicaragua. Even more so, the two largest rainforest biological reserves of Mesoamerica, which are located in Nicaragua, were open for mining concessions and other types of exploitation. Under eleven years of Ortega, Nicaragua has given more mining concessions than in a hundred years together. Under the Ortega administration, the land rights of indigenous and campesino communities have been challenged after the announcement of the inter-oceanic canal project. As a result, campesinos and indigenous communities organize an anti-canal movement that has evolved into one of Latin America's largest and most vibrant grassroots movements. As we speak, many of the leaders of the campesino movement are in prison for fighting for their land rights, as is the case of Campesino, Melardo Mairena, and Pedro Mena. Having an extractive economy largely means having a resource-based economy, depending on harvesting or extracting natural resources for trade. Such extractivism is of enormous significance in shaping the authoritarian model under Ortega. In addition to weak institutions, the fact that Nicaragua has a weak middle class is another fundamental condition that has allowed the consolidation of a dictatorship in Nicaragua. One of the most powerful images to imply the importance of the middle class is that of society's spinal cord in words of Ortega y Gasset. We're lacking that spinal cord. The middle class in Nicaragua was about 12% based on the calculations of the central bank in 2007. It's as of 2016 less than 9% and it's declining about 1% per year. However, 90% of Nicaraguans live with the equivalent of less than 10 pounds a day, 90% of Nicaraguans. Households that have exceeded the poverty line are extremely vulnerable and official data reveals that 7 out of 10 jobs are precarious and informal. Yet, according to the Wealthx Report, which monitors private banking in Central America, Nicaragua is the country in Central America with the largest number of ultra-rich people. That is, families with an independent wealth of more than $100 million, only Panama has more than us. A decisive factor of this economic inequality and reduced middle class is the unjust fiscal system imposed by Ortega regime. Under his new tax code, Ortega has, especially those generated from capital income. So under the new tax code, the law 891, I can give you a perfect example of how public policies are not designed to strengthen the middle class. Law 891 tends to increase levels of income inequality by taxing basic needs such as closing. You can check that on the law, closing national footwear and completely freeing zero tax to helicopters and jets. Thanks Mr. Ortega. Yet, elites within all the political spectrum in Nicaragua have a bias toward the middle class and also towards the rural class. That explains the reason why the Campesino movement is currently the most vibrant and vocal opposition against Ortega and his wife Rosario Murillo. The urban bias of Nicaragua's elites continues to be evident in many ways. Electoral representation and government expenditure is this proportionate bias towards cities of Manawa, Granada, and León. Also, the conflict and resistance of law 840 gives a hundred year concession to Chinese businessman Wanjin to develop and build an inter-Asianic canal in Nicaragua. And this can only be fully understood under the light of the urban bias that persists today. Despite all our challenges, in April 18, a new Nicaragua was born. Thanks to the leadership of an inspiring grassroots movement led by students, women, and Campesinos of Northern Nicaragua, for the first time in decades we have a chance for a more inclusive Nicaragua. We strongly believe that the consensus is the only direct way available in today's world to consolidate democracy. We have learned from the Nicaraguan experience that when political consensus is weak, there are strong incentives for the making of dictators. The students that gave their life, such as Alvarito Conrado, the students and grassroots leaders from diverse social movements who endure prison and torture, such as Levi Rugama, Yaritza Mairena, Victoria O'Bando and many many others, are Nicaragua's greatest hope for a new society where no dictator, no matter his or her political ideology, will impose his will on free men and women. Democracy will no longer be a dream. Thank you. Any other questions? We can pick them up in 2003s. No? Do you start? Okay, is this working? No. I wanted to turn it on. It's down here. Hello? This one works. You got it? Yes, I wanted to ask a question about future, really. I should state that I'm from the Nicaragua Solidarity Campaign. We have a different view of what the facts of these issues are. But I don't particularly want to talk about that. Obviously, lots of distressing events have happened this year. The question is where we go from here. Now, if you think that the best thing for Nicaragua, for the majority of the Nicaraguan people are neoliberal policies, then it's probably fairly clear which direction it might go. I was presuming that that's not the case for most people. What is the future? Is there a possibility in your view for reform of the FSLN, maybe with Ortega and Maria stepping down and being replaced by a younger generation, sort of reforms which are beginning to happen at least in Cuba now, or is the duty, would you regard that as being impossible? And if the FSLN cannot be regarded as being a possible future and representing a left position, as I said something on the dispute, but if you think that that is the case, then what are the options as the only main opposition parties seem to represent a fairly extreme right position? Should I start or do you want to answer first? Okay. First of all, a message to the Nicaraguan Solidarity Campaign. I am a son of a political prisoner under the Ortega, on the Somoza dictatorship. And my father was a person who devoted his short life to the Sandinista Revolution. I grew up around friends from around the world who slept at our house, people from UK, people from Bulgaria, from all around the world. So I know that those people in these solidarity campaigns are good people. Most of you really trust things that are doing the right thing because there is a sort of romanticism to the Sandinista Revolution of the 1980s. And I will not go into whether the Sandinista Revolution lost its track in 1980 or 1990. What I'm saying is that while we're suffering in Nicaragua is not an ideological issue and it's important to tackle. That's my first message. We need to tackle the Nicaraguan crisis from the human rights perspective. It's the only way to really tackle this issue. There are a lot of open wounds from both sides. There are a lot of people who have suffered in Nicaragua. So the first point in terms of future is that we need to tackle repression from the perspective of human rights. Repression is something that in Nicaragua is closing the opportunity and the window opportunity for a peaceful resolution to the crisis. In Nicaragua you have thousands of Nicaraguans that do not have a track record of peaceful resolution. We do not have really the expertise to tackle these kind of issues as we should. We are a country with a deep open wounds of conflict and therefore we are afraid that when we have and we see torture and repression those of us who speak of nonviolence are perceived as morons by those who are suffering. So from my perspective it's really heartbreaking to see that Daniel Ortega is really tackling the moderate. So once again about future I think that we need to, as we said in Spanish, have cabeza fría. We need to be calm and really try to develop an even playing field under a complete respect of human rights in Nicaragua. Would Sandinistas play a role in the democratic transition? Of course, this is not about eradicating Sandinistas. This is not about taking vengeance. This is about stopping the repression and developing free and fair electoral rules so everyone can have the opportunity to compete under different circumstances. But the political question is subject in terms of hierarchy to the human rights questions. By attacking the human rights question I must say and publicly admit as I said in every single presentation that violence has been completely disproportionate but there is of course violence in the other side of those who also protested against President Ortega and the mothers of the 22 police officers that were killed they also deserve justice. So it's impossible to think about justice and transition without truth but our key argument is that the Ortega regime doesn't have the legitimacy nor the strength nor the neutrality to tackle the human rights question and that's what we're here. We're trying to involve the international community in addressing the Nicaraguan issue not as a partisan or ideological issue but as a human rights question. Once we solve the human rights question I am sure that all Nicaraguans will be capable of solving our own problems by finally creating a roadmap towards democracy. Can you hear me? Yes. We will not be able to achieve peace in Nicaragua if we begin to say that the people who supported the San Luis the revolution cannot be part of the solution for Nicaragua. We must have an open dialogue. We must be inclusive. We must remember as well and be aware that many Sandinistas are fighting against Daniel Ortega. That many Sandinistas and former fighters in the revolution are in jail and that therefore we cannot have policies that exclude anyone in the solution for Nicaragua. And just as Felix has said, I think that the paramount issue at the moment in Nicaragua is the following. The people of Nicaragua are determined to have a nonviolent resistance. It is quite extraordinary to see the commitment of the people not to engage in an armed struggle. It's a simple reaction to the fact that 50,000 people died during the revolution that fought because they believed that this revolution was going to achieve democracy, freedom and justice. And then that you see one of the leaders of this revolution who is a murderer's dictator. Therefore the Nicaraguans don't want anymore a bloodshed of that kind. So that makes the situation very, very difficult because what do we have to overthrow this murderous, brutal dictator? The only thing that we have is the people that can express and can demonstrate the people that can use social media. The international community role is critical. We can on our own defeat Daniel Ortega. We need the international community to support us. We need the international community to impose sanctions. We need the international community to impose the OAS to impose the democratic charter. We need them all. We are a very vulnerable people that are being murdered by a government that has very sophisticated weapons versus the rest of the country that is against him that has no weapons whatsoever. I'd like to make, well, a comment and a question. The comment is the time, a little bit distressed to see the enthusiasm with which you face international sanctions against Nicaragua. Historically I don't think sanctions have done anything against the regimes they're supposedly aimed at. We only have to look at pre-invasion Iraq where I can't remember now whether it was 500,000 or a million people died during the sanctions imposed on Iraq. Frankly, if you imagine that the intentions of the United States Administration, any United States Administration imposing sanctions on a country in Central or South America were in the interest of the ordinary people of those countries, I think frankly that would be the first time since the promulgation of the Monroe Doctrine in the 1820s that the United States had done that. I think when sanctions are imposed by the United States. Can I answer your question? Can I finish the comment? It's purely in the interest of corporate America. But that's my comment which, yes, please come back on, but I do also have a question. And that is to an extent connected with my previous comment. And that is about the involvement of whether it's CIA or other elements of the secret surface of the United States in the events since April. And I suppose while I can understand why Nicaraguans involved in these events would deny any involvement to the United States, my question would be why wouldn't they be involved? Why wouldn't they be involved in getting rid or trying to get rid of a regime that they have spent decades trying to get rid of? Yeah, let me answer that question. First of all, the nonviolent insurrection in Nicaragua is not a leftist movement or a rightist movement. There is not an ideology against him. You have people from all walks of life. You have people from the poor farmers to the students, to the church, to the media, to some of the private sector who had been vocal and who have participated in this nonviolent insurrection. I have been in Nicaragua in May and April, and I was able to march with the people on the 30s of May, where there was a, it was Mother's Day in Nicaragua, where you had an overwhelming march of people. I was stunned to be participant, and I will tell you something. Early on that day, I had gone to visit the students at the Yunnan University, where there were atrincherals, and where I met him, and one of them, Levis, that I mentioned before, came with me and accompanied me. While we were marching, that day, 18 people were killed, shoot to kill, okay, with the sniper shooters that were shooting at us. He helped me get out of there, and there were between 70 and 80 people wounded. No, let me tell you, it may look like America was funding. It is not being funded by the U.S. I think that my credentials speak for themselves. I have opposed the United States intervention, not just in Nicaragua, in Iraq. I have been to Iraq, I have been to Afghanistan, I have been throughout the world. I have fought against and denounced the role that the U.S. played in El Salvador. There is a difference between the sanctions imposed to Iraq, which I was a voice against it, against something new that exists, that is called the Magnitsky Global Act, which puts sanctions on individual people, not only on the finances, but as well on the travel rights, and on many other things. At first, when I heard of the Nica Act, I was very troubled and very disturbed, and was not, and didn't come out to support it right away. Now, when Senator Menendez worked with Senator Patrick Leahy, Senator Patrick Leahy is a Democrat. It is a man that I have known for many years, a man who is very concerned about human rights issues, and who took this bill that was imposed on the sanctions in Nicaragua to try to make it so that it will not have such a humanitarian impact on the people of Nicaragua. I urge all of you to read and learn about what the Magnitsky Global Act is, which is now being called, for this particular case, the Magnitsky Nicaraguan Act. It was created by two sanctioned, corrupt individuals who have been involved as well in human rights violations in Russia. The United States, at first, was not interested in Nicaragua. Donald Trump is not interested really in Nicaragua. I have gone to lobby members of the State Department who know well that I have been a voice against the Contra War. I have gone to lobby the Ambassador, Nikki Haley, to discuss with her because she brought the issue of the human right of Nicaragua to the General Assembly at the United Nations. All I can tell you is, no, this is not a movement that was financed by the U.S. This is the answer of Daniel Ortega to try to excuse the murder of innocent people by claiming that is an intervention of the U.S. The real intervention in Nicaragua, the Russians sold Nicaragua 50 tanks. We haven't yet seen them. The weapons that have been used to shoot, to kill. The weapons of war that have been used against kids. There's been 23 children killed in Nicaragua. There have been 70 students killed in Nicaragua. There are 50 students in jail who have already under the legal process. And there are 150 that have not been charged yet. These are kids with who I am in touch. These kids don't have anything. These 50,000 people or more that are in Costa Rica who are the people who are asking for asylum. They're leaving under terrible conditions. Where is the mighty United States helping them? All I can tell you is that my track record of nearly 40 years as a human right campaigner denouncing interventions and denouncing U.S. intervention on all those countries that you're concerned with, I can assure you I wouldn't be asking for sanctions if I thought in any possible way that that's what was going to happen. If I may quickly add, you asked why not? It's important to understand how complicated Central America is in terms of organized crime, drugs. Out of the 10 most dangerous cities in the world, three of them are in Central America. Prior to that, Nicaragua was an exception. Nicaragua was one of the safest countries in Latin America. As hard as it is to understand, the U.S. government was actually very happy with the Nicaraguan police and the Nicaraguan army in its capacity to deal with undocumented migrants moving from the south to the north, its capacity to deal with drug trafficking and also in its capacity to keep Nicaragua a relatively safe country. Bianca has pointed out something very important. The Nicaraguan Conditionality Act was actually defeated in the U.S. Congress before, precisely because the United States was not really willing to get involved. What really happened in April is that the Sandinista government and the police did not know how to handle the protests. I think, and this is only a very personal opinion, that if the government had just allowed the students to protest for a few days without having such a massive violent response, the situation would be completely different. Now they're trying to blame the United States for a mess that they created. I think that we're falling once again into the oversimplification of the world. I've seen a lot of issues that people quickly blame socialism as a car that they quickly use when they want to discredit someone. And then in the other side of the political spectrum, people blame the United States. I think that at this time it's important to understand that this is not something created by the United States. It's something that was created by the lack of capacity to deal with the protests in a peaceful way. I have a question, so there's one from Baroness Kennedy over here. Can I suggest that we take those four questions all at once? Can I start? I want to thank both of you for very, very interesting presentations. And I know that there will be some people from Central America here tonight or from Latin America. And they will be much more knowledgeable than those of us who are not from that part of the world. Because I'm sure you keep yourself much more informed than many of us do. And as we know, the press here in Britain are not big on dealing with South America. And certainly not very big on dealing with Central America. And so I find it very, very interesting. And I want to pay tribute to my friend Bianca Jagger, because Bianca's job of work over many, many years has been to challenge governments of whatever complexion when they're abusing human rights. And that's one of the things about human rights activists is that they have to be doing it. Whatever your particular worldview, if you see people, if you're a person of the left and you see left governments or governments that claim to be of the left, you can be quite sentimental about how they came into being. But I'm telling you, once they start shooting and killing people and people start disappearing, and once you have extrajudicial killings and journalists can't write free articles criticizing them, once all of that is going on, then we have to look to our own laurels and say, is this still what we had in mind when we supported the Nicaraguan solidarity campaigns and so on, as I did too in my youth? And so what I really want to say is we've seen this kind of thing happening in other places. We saw it happening in Zimbabwe, a great liberation movement leader in Mugabe, becoming more and more repressive as time went on. And so we shouldn't be surprised and what we have to keep analyzing is, why does this happen? How does this happen? And what is it that stops the kind of transition of countries that go through a revolution, seek democracy, seek change and do so because of the huge disparities between rich and poor, wanting to create more even societies, and the difficulties that are in making the transition to turn into the kind of place that is then multi-party? Because, you know, you can't just carry on expecting to exist as a sort of one-party state and for a long time people are very romantic about it, we've seen it in South Africa, about the ANC, are romantic about the party of liberation and the people who led that great movement and then will become much too permissive and if you like forgiving of bad things that they do because we remember well the transition. Of course there are going to be people in Nicaragua, I suspect, the super rich, who will be very hugamuga with people in the United States who are neoliberals and we can just imagine the folk, who will be basically wanting to support them in developing parties that will not have the interests of the great majority of Nicaraguans at their heart and who will not care about the poor, but who will care about the investment possibilities and so on that there might be in having connections with right-wing parties in Nicaragua. I would imagine that the people who are on the street are of many different complexions, people in rural communities often, in many ways often in terms of their social attitudes, very conservative but who want to have a fairer crack of a whip and want to be able to live a decent life and so everybody will come with different pieces and different bits of political perspective but it has to be that we say all of us who care about human rights that it's unacceptable what's happening and as far as I'm concerned, that is the bottom line. If you care about humanity, then you have to say, it doesn't matter who's doing it and what the political complexion, it is not acceptable and movements that are supportive and have been supportive in the past have to review their commitment and solidarity and we saw the shameful businesses that used to happen about forgiving things that happened in the Soviet Union in Eastern Europe and all of that, forgiving it for far too long after bad things were happening and we have to speak out about it. I just want to talk about the business of sanctions. I share some of the concerns about sanctions. I think that sanctions can be crude and coarse and there are burden on the ordinary people of nations. One of the things that has been sharpening up although I'm not that confident that Nikki Haley is going to be the person that's going to be the great protector of this but one of the things that I believe very strongly is that visa restrictions are very important stopping people getting the money out of countries so that actually people who have been leaders in countries and their friends who are the rich in those countries and the kind of amassing of wealth at the expense of the poor is basically the property of the folk of the country and they get the money out in case of change and they therefore try to kind of invest in other places, have properties in other places and they send their children to school in other places and universities and they basically solidify the resources outside of the nation and that is one of the things that has to be stopped and you do it by going after those who have money and stopping them having visas stopping them laundering their ill-gotten gains by getting them out of the country and investing them in properties and so on and having the money trail is very, very difficult to do because you have to have good people on your side to identify how that money is making its way out so I am absolutely in favour of the use of the Magnitsky legislation when we say it's a global law though I mean it's basically the attempt is to make it global it's still not global but what one's doing is going after individuals who have been abusers of human rights and as far as I'm concerned Ortega is quite clearly an abuser of human rights but one would want to look at the people around him and also the people who are not in government who are making money who are around him and supporting him and I definitely think that if you concern yourself with human rights one of the things you have to use is selective and targeted sanctions but against individuals and ones that don't affect massively the whole business of food and stuff going into countries and really making the people in countries suffer so it's a difficult thing to do A question I wanted to ask of Felix was you said and it was said twice when you spoke you spoke about the business of failing to create consensus and that this was a historic thing in Nicaragua and I wasn't sure that I understood what you meant about that and most of our polities don't gain complete consensus we may have consensus about the importance of democracy and the form the democracy takes and there's more than voting in that you have to have a free press you have to have the rule of law that judges have to be independent and can't be sacked and you respect the constitution but what I'm asking you is... Could you just get to the end of the question? The point is what do you mean when you say there's no consensus? Nations don't have consensus and it's in that challenging of each other that you try to reach for democracy Thank you very much As I said we will pick up a few questions first before coming back to the panel Hi, I think it would be interesting to know why round table discussions aren't possible because there's a big view that it would be good for Sandinistas and everybody to have that discussion so what are the barriers to those open discussions? Hello A broader question there's a lot of hope for many governments 15 years ago in Latin America and since then obviously a lot of people have lost faith in many of those governments of the left and you could see protests in Brazil and elsewhere where people wore the flag I'm not saying they're like Eubianca at all and then the result in Brazil at least is the complete opposite where we have an extreme right winger I'm not saying at all you are likely to become this my question is especially given what you've said Felix about the link between sort of extractivist economies and authoritarian cordidios is this somehow inevitable that even if you're on the left you become authoritarian or on the right and you become authoritarian because extractivist economies depend on a small number of people controlling the assets and the question is about distribution but my question is not just whether it's inevitable but to both of you in Latin America at the moment when you look at all of these countries and how they're going is there one leader or one country that gives you hope for a system in which there is development but there's distribution and social justice thank you and environmental protection Hello Bianca and Felix I am from Nicaragua I am a post-grad student at the LSE and I just arrived here two months ago and before that it was also in Nicaragua and I was at the marches and I saw everything that happened and I know that like you it was not a thing of left or right it was something of everyone in the country and feeling of sense that when you were walking in the streets you could be next to anyone it was a palpable feeling of pain and it feels like after we had the dialogue that sense has been dying out not because it's not there but because of the fear that the government has created so I would want to know what is your view on how do we prevent Nicaragua from turning into Venezuela and from being for years with this man in power and how do you view the transition so that when he is out there is not a vacuum of power and that we have the institutions for my infringement process to really represent all Nicaraguans and to have democracy and have a good one as well I like you no thank you very much for being here first the one thing that is clear to me is that the solution for Nicaragua is not an easy one as I said before and as you said is that you have in the one hand a dictatorship that is ruthless, brutal and is prepared to kill anyone who opposed him who is prepared to put in jail innocent people, students or anyone just simply and accuse them and they introduce legislations so that they can charge him for being a terrorist but the bottom line is that the government of Daniel Ortega and Rosario Maria is a terrorist state we have no weapons we are seeing people are totally at his mercy to either be killed tortured, put in jail or forced to flee the country we don't have yet a consensus among the people and one of the things that we discussed last night with Felix is how do we get this consensus among all the political groups in Nicaragua the one thing I think that is important when we talk about the influence of the United States and in response maybe to your question of extractivist governments is that what I have come I recently was at a debate at the LSE and it was about dictatorship it used to be very simple to say dictatorships from the right and then we were defending dictatorships we were defending governments from the left but if we look at Latin America today you see someone like me who had hoped for progressive governments in Cuba, in Venezuela in Nicaragua these governments have become dictatorships these governments are killing the citizens like they are in Venezuela but so you have as well this terrible government that you have today in Brazil I have spent my life defending human's right I have spent my life defending indigenous people against the exploitation and communities against the exploitation of the natural resources but when we look and when you tell me give me a government that will give you hope it's very difficult it's very difficult because beside human's right I spend my life speaking about environmental defenders that are being assassinated throughout the world they are defending their land because they are defending their natural resources so I don't know what I can say to you all I can hope is that that they will be away and that I believe that these sanctions are imposed on individuals on corrupt individuals and on individuals who are committing crimes against humanity they will be able to send a message that they will not stop that they will have their properties outside and their wealth and their right to be able to travel to be curtailed those individual sanctions on them that they will have an effect but we don't want only the United States to impose them the European Union we want the Latin American countries to all work together so that the answer that this gentleman made which is valid that we do not have only the United States applying the sanctions very quick remarks when I spoke about consensus I added the concept of fragmented society of course consensus in its pure sense is not impossible but you can look at developed democracies and I agree with me that basic agreement on what are the rules of the game we don't need to agree on the full spectrum of policies but at least in the fundamental rules of the game so what I try to convey is that Nicaragua has not reached that basic agreement so when you try to understand what happened in Nicaragua and say well but Ortega has a mandate most people are really those who made those kind of comments from outside are uninformed about the weak institutions and the fact that Nicaragua even in 2006 when Ortega was elected was not a fully fledged democracy and this is not only a problem of Ortega let me be absolutely clear the key problem of Nicaragua is not that of Ortega the key problem of Nicaragua is the fragmented society that has not been able to create those fundamental rules of the game so we can get rid of Ortega and tomorrow another authoritarian leader can come and evolve into a dictator so my key point is that in order to have a robust democracy we need to think this beyond ideologies and try to promote as much as we can the conversation around fundamental rules of the game which connects me to the question of the lady from Nicaragua that says how can we avoid being in Venezuela and I wake up every day thinking about the people who have been killed the students who have been killed and try to think what did Venezuela do wrong that we can learn from those mistakes and one of the biggest mistakes in Venezuela is that they turn this into an ideological issue and also the voices of non-violence are getting more and more forced we are speaking or hearing about even invasion as an option in Venezuela you see and that really cares me a lot so when we try to keep the moderate voices I think the dictators are really scared of moderates that's why they are accusing me of being a narcotraficante a terrorist getting money from the CIA precise while they are not talking in true radical voices because dictators really want polarization so my recommendation will be the same I gave to the students when they tried to kill me in León that obviously I was wearing a vest as you know and my life was set we are going to walk outside and we will not respond a single blow I lost many of my teeth my nose was broken my hand was broken and believe me non-violence is not theory it's hard to be non-violent when they kill one of your best friends Ángel Gaón was a member of YEP and he was assassinated with a shot on his forehead I lost all my property as you know I've been persecuted and my family in Nicaragua is leaving and hitting in the jungles of some unknown place and it's hard for me not to hate but my recommendation will be do not allow your heart to be full with hatred these things will be around they will tell you that your mother a CIA agent and drug trafficker they might even kill me but we need to keep our mother's voice and believe that those who died at either side those who died because I have friends that died my father was a political president my parents separated for political reasons when my family lost their property sorry I'm giving my personal example but it's not uncommon to see Nicaraguan families destroyed for this ridiculous ideological divide that I see here, people that from 10,000 feet are trying to explain what Nicaraguans are suffering with the lenses of these tags of right wing and left wing so we cannot fall into the trap of polarization we need to try to keep a moderate voice and build the Nicaragua where every Nicaraguan Sandinistas conservative liberals, mestizos people from the Caribbean coast LGTB movement, the gay community the Catholics, the protestants we can all work together based on the fundamental rules of the game that will be my key comment is authoritarianism inevitable yes I think it's not inevitable and it's connected to my previous question, I think that we really have this is the biggest hope we have in the history of Nicaragua because for the first time we're trying to move towards a political transition without weapons, of course there are some people that do not believe in that road but we have, if we go outside of the road one violent road, I think that the chances will be will be lost what are the barriers for open discussion I think that the biggest barrier is the question of impunity in Nicaragua we've always moved in political transitions and we're probably one of the only countries in the world that gave full amnesty without investigation so I think that that's the big elephant in the room, impunity and we have to to really face democratic transition having in mind we can no longer continue with severe human rights violations swept under the carpet as the dating happened so everyone who committed a crime in Nicaragua has to be accountable everyone, everyone that's the elephant in the room and we have to break it and I made this public comment if there's a single evidence that I committed a crime I will be the first to face a jury in a free Nicaragua and we have independent authorities but we can no longer swept all these violations under the carpet I will allow you your question it's not a question I bring greetings greetings from Brussels to Bianca I've just returned from a two day conference on the Turkish Kurdish question of which you are a patron of the Kurdistan movement so we bring greetings we had a wonderful conference there and I appreciate your support for the Kurdish people I should have introduced myself my name is Father Joe Ryan I'm a priest of the Westminster diocese chair of the Westminster Justice and Peace Commission so involved in many human rights situations I also bring greetings from Margaret Owen Margaret Owen Margaret Owen mentioned you Baroness Kennedy at least 15 times in the two days that I was with her so she's a wonderful woman working on human rights my question is how do we get ordinary people involved in this whole question I should have mentioned when you were speaking about Nicaragua it was a mirror image of what's happening in Turkey at the minute the so called democracy and word for word but the numbers are in prison and that should be increased tenfold because of the Turkish situation anyhow how do we get ordinary people involved in understanding what's happening in Nicaragua and in many other countries people are sitting on the fence the media don't cover the whole message and so how do we get ordinary people involved to support questions it's the human rights violations that we're talking about not left or right or centre thank you very much thank you for being here and for your greetings on Monday it's international human right day and as you heard very eloquently from Felix the importance about Nicaragua is that we put an end to the human right violations and the crimes against humanity and that we have accountability under no circumstances we should allow that there will be that we will put under the carpet the crimes that have been committed in Nicaragua in social media we say ni perdón, ni olvido and it's what I said as well there will be no forgetting and they certainly will know forgiving unless these crimes are made accountable when we look at the world today I think and we see around the atrocities that are being committed whether we are talking about Yemen whether we are talking about Syria whether we are talking about so many other place and so many human right violations perhaps Nicaragua is very small when we look at all the rest but it is not small because if we don't do anything if we don't speak up it will become worse every day every day there will be victims as a human right defender who is thinking about Monday and when we will be celebrating the 70's anniversary of the universal declaration of human right and I look back and I think have we made progress we have made some progress but it seems like the world has become indifferent perhaps because there are so many atrocities that are being committed in the world that everyone is overwhelmed and becomes indifferent and perhaps we in Nicaragua why is it that the media in the UK is so indifferent about what's happening in Nicaragua I know we were not one of the colonies and the Nicaragua is at the other side of the world we are not in Africa or in Asia we are in Latin America and I hope that there was a time when Nicaragua was important for the British media when Nicaragua was important for the media throughout the world so why is it that it is not important today I will tell you that I have more interviews that I do with French German American that I do with the British media I'm not saying that the British people don't care they've not been informed and that's why it is so wonderful and I like to think again so as for allowing us to be here to present you another story to present you the real story of what's happening in Nicaragua and for us to be able to tell you no things are not normal in Nicaragua that is what they would like to make us believe people are being killed people are being tortured they are political prisoners the media is being persecuted the church is being persecuted the poor farmers are being persecuted the students and children are being killed so thank you for being here I really I'm very grateful that you have given us the opportunity and that you have come to listen to what we have to say thank you