 Te nā koutau rauranga te rama nau mae haramae ki runga tēnei te wenoa o kui koroma Koti arote nei mehinei ki a koutau e he he he Tēnā tatau, nau mae aramae ki runga tēnei te wenoa o kui koroma Koti arote ingo o te wenoa nei tēnei te me iatū kia koutau i tēnei ata Welcome from my people who are based here into Onganuiatara in Wellington and welcome also from my colleagues, Arianna, one of our whāinii pūrotu from down in Te Waipounamu in Ngai Tahu, but also here representing her role in National Library and Alexander Turnbull Library and my koti mana friend, my Scottish friend at Clear Hall who is here speaking on behalf of Te Reo Taranaki. What we wanted to speak to you today about is a project that the three of us have been working on since 2012 but I did also, and that's the digitisation of a set of letters that are in the Alexander Turnbull Library and all of us will talk in more detail about our experience in working on this particular project. I did want to start by giving a little bit of a background and a whakapapa to how this project came about from the perspective of the iwi and from my perspective both as an archivist and an iwi member and also a member while I'm not paid by Te Reo Taranaki of the project that Te Reo Taranaki is running. So I want to go back 10 years and talk very briefly about when Rua Kerehond and Makere Edwards came to present at the National Digital Forum in 2007 and their vision for an indigenous digital archive that would safeguard in digital format the language of Taranaki, Te Reo Taranaki. Te Reo Taranaki is a small charitable trust looking at language revitalisation in Taranaki. If anybody knows the history of this area, Wellington, we settled here from Taranaki and we maintained those links over the last 200 years. So we're very much still linked to Taranaki. So while we looked to our monga here, Matairangi and Ahumairangi, we also looked to monga Taranaki as being our forebear, our tupuna. So Makere and Rua Kere had this vision. They went with this vision to DIA and as part of the National Digital Strategy at the time, they got funding for this project to Putero Tiriata. And what they said at that time, what they saw this as being, was they were going to base it on the ketehorofinoa software. So it was kete Taranaki Reo. And it was that it needed to have permission levels that would allow access and restriction based on what people wanted to happen with their collections. It would have an online dictionary. It would include the Māori subject headings. That was an important part of the work was to build in the Māori subject headings. And it was mainly at that particular time to focus on audio files. They got this project going and they brought me on. And not long after I started, they brought Kleron as our project manager. So we've been working on this project from quite early on. And I think five years ago, Kleron and I presented at NDF about using the kete software. And I think that one of the things that we spoke about at that talk was just that our vision for how this could work and the way that kete worked weren't quite working together. And we'll talk a little bit more, Kleron's going to talk a little bit more about how we moved on from that discussion. But it gave us a really good basis for starting to think about how we worked with data, how we wanted to organise our metadata, and from that point on, that began the sort of the development of the Patero Te Reata project. And then out of that developed a number of relationships that meant that we could then start to work with institutions about finding our knowledge. So we had two main goals. One was creating digital records that reflected our community and looking in our community for records that we could digitise, but also going into national collections and regional collections and looking for our material where it had been recorded elsewhere. And we did a project with Archives New Zealand identifying material held there. And we have also looked through a number of other collections, but I think in what we're going to talk about today is where we got to in terms of this project that we are going to focus on. So we're looking at it from two directions. One, the software that we're using to manage the collections and two, the content that is being created is part of this project that we're going to talk about today. So I want to talk a little bit, and Arianna and Clare are going to talk from their perspectives, but I want to talk about from my perspective as an iwi person about the Letters Project Evolution. So we had done some work with National Library already identifying records. We'd run this exhibition here talking about letters from our tupuna that had been found in various places, including the Alexander Turnbull Library. And then in 2012 I was at a talk at, it was actually held at Archives New Zealand, but it was an A-Rands talk where Paul Diamond and Arianna got up and spoke about a couple of projects that they were working on. And for me as an iwi person sitting in the audience to know that I had these two good friends and colleagues who stood up to talk about Taranaki, their work on Taranaki projects, and I didn't know anything about it. And I felt quite hurt that I hadn't been spoken to about these fantastic projects that they were doing, considering my connections with Taranaki, with Te Reo, Taranaki, and with these tupuna who they were talking about. Funnily enough, one of them that Paul was talking about was a picture of Honeana Tipuni, who of course I'm named for. So after they spoke about these projects, I approached them and said to them, I'd really like to understand a little bit more about how you're working with iwi in these projects, because I thought if I didn't know, I'd do the rest of the iwi know what's going on. And it became quite clear that that conversation hadn't happened. So I felt like it was my responsibility to help them be in a safe space about actually working on these collections. And so I said to them, let's find how we can facilitate the conversation with iwi. And so from there has sprung this relationship around these letters. Now this particular collection of letters is a collection that was taken during the Taranaki Wars in the 1860s when Pa were invaded when they were sacked. If there was any correspondence that was found, the soldiers took it to read it for intelligence. And so it's one of those few collections of Māori letters that is from Māori to Māori. So you hear quite a different voice. A lot of the writing is Māori writing to Crown, and they'll write quite, they won't use necessarily the level of metaphoric language that you would use if you were speaking directly to somebody who had a native understanding of the language. So from a language perspective it was a really important collection to us. From a tūpuna perspective it was a really important collection for us. And from the perspective that it was stolen from our pa, it was a really important collection to us in Taranaki. So forming those relationships and making sure that the collection was well cared for, we knew that it physically was well cared for, because one of my Ōnonga has said on a number of occasions it is an institution's job to care for the physical well-being of collections. It is the people's job, the iwi job, to care for the spiritual and cultural well-being of collections. And that's why connection between institutions and iwi and source communities is so critical to making collections work well. So 2012 we started to form this relationship and Te Reo Taranaki was brought into the fold because I was involved with Te Reo Taranaki as a broker to help facilitate these relationships. Iwi in 2012 were still in, particularly in Taranaki, were in a position of being in the middle of treaty settlement. And in treaty settlement there are other focuses and I think one of the other things that I've learnt in working with iwi and that I think my colleagues have also become very familiar with is that you can't make anything happen until Māori, until it's the right time for it to happen. And 2012 was not the right time for this project to happen because our iwi weren't ready to engage with the project. So over the last five years Arianna and Clare have been slowly working away at iwi getting things ready for this project to flower. And what we're here to talk about today is a little bit about how this project has grown and flowered into something that I think is a really good template for a way to work with iwi collections and to work with iwi in terms of the repatriation and in this case, digital repatriation of these taonga. I just wanted to very briefly talk about kaitiakitanga and I think underlying everything I've said is the idea of kaitiakitanga and for me that summed up in what Hemi spoke about when he said I don't care for the cultural and spiritual well-being of collections. I think that it's really important for me. I don't talk about myself as a kaitiaki. I'm also a strategic advisor Māori at Ngātaunga Sound and Vision. I don't talk about myself in my role there as being a kaitiaki. I talk about myself as being a kaipupuri. I'm there to hold and care for the collections. But the kaitiakitanga belongs with the iwi with the source communities of those collections. So for me the understanding of kaitiakitanga and the mātauranga that sits within kaitiakitanga is something that belongs with iwi and I think that as you'll hear through when my my mates here talk further about the project that they will talk in much more detail about how that journey can be tied together. So how you bring together kaitiaki, kaipupuri and of course in this relationship the broker the kaitakawanga the person who walks between the iwi and the institution. Often the kaitakawanga would be somebody like from the institution but in this case we are lucky enough to have Te Reo Taranaki who was passionate about its support for the Taranaki community and we're able to broker that relationship through. I just want to I'm going to hand over in a minute to Arianna to talk about her journey in representing National Library before I leave I'm very sorry but I am going to have to leave because I'm supposed to be in Rai Tahi talking to the iwi up there about some of their taunga. So I'm going to leave here and jump on a car and drive there. But before I go I did want to Mii to Paul and to Arianna and particularly to Claire for their continued support of me and for allowing the space for me to talk a little bit about what it is to be on the iwi side of things. I'm often talking on behalf of organisations it's nice to stand here as an iwi member so I want to meet with you. Kia ora koutou kaitahu te iwi kati rekihu te hapu kia koutou. I started working at the Alexander Turnbull at the end of 2011 as the Māori specialist in the arrangement and description team and my team processes the new collections in the unpublished area and we also when needed enhance older collections. One of my first jobs was working on these letters and it's quite a large collection 252 Māori letters and it had been selected to be digitised. It's now known as the Atkinson Māori letters collection from Taranaki but initially came into the library in 1961 as part of the Polynesian Society records. In 1983 our first Māori manuscripts, Liberian, Dahl identified these letters as one of our jewels and one of the reasons for that was what Honiana was saying that the letters are between Māori tīpuna and not Māori crown agents or missionaries. So it's quite special in terms of the letters within our public institutions and because they were seen as special they were separated from the Polynesian Society records and arranged in date order and put within 18 folders, just like these letters here from one of our folders. And in line at that time in the 1980s with other manuscripts, collections and inventory was created as a finding aid and made available in the library reading room and around that time the collection was also microfilmed. When our first computerised database Tāpuhi was created in the early 1990s the detailed information from the inventory wasn't actually transferred into that system. So all you could see on the database was the collection level record and then it would go down to the folder level and it would say correspondence and the dates, date ranges of those letters. The inventory actually included dates and names of the ancestors who wrote the letters and who they wrote to and listed relevant places we're known. Both the inventory and the collection record also explained some of the historical context of the letters and it said that the majority of them were taken from two kainga paiaka mahoe and maatai tawa when they were destroyed in the Tananaki Wars in the 1860s. That's the front of the inventory and it's part of an artifact in itself these days. This article from Paper's Past was published in April 1864 and this excerpt of it reads major at-concern in the bush ranges now crossed the Whangatāhua to destroy paiaka mahoe which though a large place was not fortified the crops here also had been mainly taken away but some kumaras which had been dug and heaped were brought away by the men, the natives having kindly provided and left kits for the purpose. Other things were destroyed and the whare is burnt. An interesting collection of letters was found here and have been shown to us including a noteworthy letter of William King's of February last year which we hoped to publish shortly. So as Honiana explained they were used for military intelligence passed into the hands of Arthur Samuel Atkinson who worked as an editor for the Taranaki Herald at that time. His biography describes him as a philologist and apparently philology is the study of language and oral and historical written sources and combines literary criticism, history and linguistics. Some of the letters were later published and translated in the Taranaki Herald under the heading of Māori literature. The work Atkinson did on the letters as probably why the collection was named after him when it was separated from the Polynesian Society papers. He was also a founding member of the Polynesian Society an active player in the wars as a member of the Taranaki volunteer rifle corps and the major Atkinson mentioned in the papers passed article was Arthur's brother Harry and this is a photo of some of the Atkinson family including Arthur holding the baby and Harry sitting down on the step there. So in April 2012 my colleagues and I spoke at an Arian symposium which Honeana talked about earlier. So Paul Diamond our Māori curator spoke about a collection of Māori portraits that he was researching for an exhibition and I spoke about the project that I had started on. So I spoke about the description enhancement work and the work that I was doing involved creating a record for each of the letters and adding in the information from the inventory such as the names and places and dates into Tāpuhi and I also added an iwi names where I could tell through maps and one map that I found in particular that was useful was through a digitised thesis that had been created in 2001 written by Penelope Goode and there was a map that showed some of the kainga and past sites. So this work created many more access points for researchers and the aim was to make them more discoverable and the plan at that stage was to create or to digitise all of the letters and attach them to those individual records. So the symposium talk seemed to go well at the time but then a few weeks later after that symposium we were approached by Honiana an experienced archivist who at that time worked for Tarewa Taranaki. Honiana had concerns about us speaking about the Taranaki letters and portraits containing an image of her tepuna namesake Honiana Te Puni and speaking in a public forum without considering speaking to her or the iwi first. She had spoken to some of her advisers in the community and they had suggested a way forward and at first after expressing her concerns it was an uncomfortable space for us all to be in for a while but we worked through it and it would be beneficial to work on a more collaborative approach and in Pia's keynote speech yesterday she spoke about spaces of discomfort and how that's actually can be a good thing and I think it was in this case. So Paul and I next met with Honiana and Hemi Sangrin who's pictured up here and Hemi's a tribal historian who was involved with Tarewa Taranaki and is currently the chief executive of Te Kotahitanga o Te Atiawa. At that time Honiana said to to the whanau of Taranaki the history associated with the Taranaki wars was not something in the distant past but it was as though it happened yesterday. This in essence is what we need to keep in mind when we're looking after Indigenous collections which carry a painful history such as this one. In Māori society there's an onus on descendants to protect Taunga in a spiritual sense and also to try to enhance the mana of iwi. There is also a duty to prevent harm or diminishment of the mana of your iwi, hapu or whanau. By approaching us and offering to introduce us to iwi Honiana was offering us a gift a chance to rebalance the mana in the relationship. So since then and I'd like to acknowledge our friend and colleague Paul Diamond who has done a lot of this mahi. We've been developing a relationship with Taranaki iwi and Te Atiawa who are the two principal iwi relating to the letters based on location of those two kaianga. When we exhibited one of the letters in an exhibition in the Turnbull Gallery, Hemi co-wrote a label with me which gave an iwi perspective of the kōrero relating to Weremu, Te Rangitāke and the beginning of the Taranaki war. This is the same William King mentioned in the paper's pastaruku. So that's a copy of the label that we co-wrote. Later in 2012 Paul and I went to New Plymouth to meet Kanohi kite Kanohi or face to face with Te Reo o Taranaki. We took digital copies of the letters to them and spoke alongside Honiana at a public event at Pukiariki which aligned with an exhibition that Te Reo o Taranaki curated. When we met with Te Reo o Taranaki they made it clear that they could not speak on behalf of iwi so we still needed to find a way to engage with iwi. We soon realised however that the timing was not great for them as they were in the midst of their treaty claims. And also the content of the letters was still a mystery to them at that stage so it was difficult to progress. For these reasons, once the letters were digitised and added to their new records we decided to make the digital copies available only in the reading room meaning that they had the same level of access as the microfilms and the physical letters. Meanwhile, work to connect the letters with iwi has been progressing which I will leave to clear to talk about. Before I hand over though I would like to emphasise some of the lessons that we have learnt through this project. Firstly, to use any challenges that we get from Māori communities as an opportunity for engagement and then engagement with Māori is seldom straightforward. The one-size-fits-all approach is never the answer. Progress does not always happen according to our institutional timeframes and our desired outcomes at the beginning of a project may not align with the right outcomes for our kaitiaki communities. So we need to enter into these relationships with open minds and hearts. Mi atahere tātau i te ngāhau mahaki. Kia ora. Māori ora ki runga, Māori ora ki raro Māori ora wanganui a tātau katoa i uwi mai tēneirangi mokopuna, tēnā kouta katoa. Kia ora. Thank you, Ariana, also Honiana in her absence. I think you probably got a bit of a sense now of the incredible team that I'm working with the incredible privilege that we've had over the last five years to be working together on this. And I want to echo Ariana and Honiana's mihi to our colleague and friend Paul Diamond by rights he should be up here with us. Kia ora paura. I just want to start using all his guinea pigs in a way. I'm going to read a traditional knowledge statement that we've drafted for this presentation and I'll come back to that later in the talk. So just have a listen and tuck it away in the back of your mind. So I just want to indicate that the material that we're talking about today is traditionally not publicly available and this statement is correcting a misunderstanding about the circulation options for this material. It's letting you know that while this material may be referenced under a traditional knowledge outreach license in the context of this presentation the traditional owners, Teatiawa and Taranaki iwi ask that you respect that the most appropriate designated circulate conditions for this Mātodanga actively being considered by the traditional kaitiaki alongside the physical kaitiaki of the letters the Alexander Turnbull Library. So I'll come back to that a bit later on. So Honiana's touched on how digitisation and digital repatriation have been really critical in Te Reo Taranaki's language revitalisation strategy. So in this context, I'm talking today about how we've been using the Mukadu Indigenous Knowledge Management platform to bring home digital heritage Mātodanga from other collections for research and education efforts. Honiana mentioned the two-year project that we did with archives New Zealand quite early on in the life of Te Pūtiru Te Reata, that's the Taranaki Māori Archive and that preceded this project. That was a really vital project that gave us a lot of experience to draw on when we started working with the Alexander Turnbull on this kopapa. So we didn't go into it and experienced, but the question that is quite regularly posed about this question is about this kopapa is why has it taken so long. Arianna emphasised that five years is a really long stretch in an institutional lifespan for a project. So I just want to address that very briefly. Five years might sound like a long time, but I really want you to consider that from the angle of these letters have been alienated from their descendants for more than 150 years. If you think about it in that regard I think we're actually doing quite well. And as Honiana said, the letters will come home when they're ready. Our job is to make sure that that can happen in a smooth fashion. So let's flashback five years back to the Taranaki Reo Taranaki Tangati Exhibition that Honiana and Arianna have referenced. That was quite a big deal for Te Reo Taranaki, especially having three rock stars like Paul and Arianna and Honiana come to town. So understandably the media were interested. So we pre-arranged an interview with the local paper and I think Paul probably spoke to the reporter and on the day of the talk, on the day of that meeting we were getting together to discuss how we'd approached the project. This was the article that was published. I don't know if it qualifies as fake news but certainly it wasn't quite right. So the main message in this article was that the Atkinson letters will be available online soon. What actually happened in that meeting is we managed to agree on one point and one point alone. 15 that we identified that we had to keep working on. So the one thing that we managed to agree on was that we were talking about a digital repatriation project with particular objectives and that was actually what the article should have said. But in effect that meeting raised many, many more questions than it answered and it was my job over the next five years to try and answer them. So five years ago we had a little bit of historical context. Honeana has mentioned that the iwi were in the thick of their treaty settlement work. There just wasn't time or space to consider this collection and the way that it needed to be considered. At Te Reo Taranaki we'd just broken up with Kete. We had no taonga database really to speak of and in many ways we have to be grateful for what the Kete prototype gave us that showed us what wouldn't work for the Maori management. But we'd invested quite a lot of time and quite a lot of energy into that which is a really big thing for a very small charitable trust on a very, very lean budget. We're talking about the smell of a smell of an oily rag. We're not talking about an oily rag. So we were a little tender and I was a little hesitant to really rush into anything. I hadn't even heard of Mikadoo then although it was emerging in the United States out of Washington State University and it was later on that year that I went to Kim Christian and Michael Ashley's talk at the Auckland Museum and just as fate would have it that ended up being the solution that we went with. So I guess five years has gone very quickly but it's really only been in the last two to three months and Taranaki have been in position to sit around a table with us, with the letters and actually talk about where we go from here. I guess one of the things I really want to emphasise in terms of the time that this has taken is that the relation aspects of this kopapa are so critical. I think that the fact that Paul and Arianna Honiana and I have been able to stay on this continuously for that time that we have made the gains that we have and that relationship is so important to the trust and the Honanga that come out of work like this. Particularly the Kanoheke to Kanohe and we've been really, really grateful for the efforts that Paul and Arianna have put into coming to Taranaki that has been a really big thing certainly for the iwi, it's been an expression of faith. So my role hasn't been about critical engagement with the letters in terms of the content in terms of the writing. It's been about finding and testing the workflows, finding funding finding the right people to do the transcriptions and in those lean times when the oily rag wasn't smelling so great really just ensuring that the project stayed on the radar. It's also been about laying the technical groundwork so that the critical engagement can take place with the traditional owners. Arianna's comment about needing time to consider the historical context and the content of the letters before any decisions about access could be made is a really, really relevant one. I draw on the work of Kim Christian who is one of the co-developers of the Mykatu software that we've been using and the evolution of Mykatu was yes certainly about open access but perhaps more importantly it was how do we deal with the information that doesn't want to be free when as our co-matua said yesterday not all memories are for everyone when going through a negotiated process might in fact lead to more complex stipulations around access that currently exist and how do institutions respond to that? How do your institutions respond to that? There has been a lot of evolution in that space the Kōrero-Kitia report that came out of Alexander Turnbull that Arianna and Paul co-authored I thought that was a step in the right direction that was particularly looking at the end use of digitised te reo collections that was a really great piece of work but when it came to the access section I thought there was quite a big gap there it was still predominantly premised on the expectation of negotiated open access of what's best from an institutional perspective so I'm suggesting we need to shift that thinking even further and talk openly about how we deal with the fact that some of the information in your collections is not appropriate for it to be open. Who's familiar with Mukuru? Just OK, there's a few hands up, that's good, great. I will just give you a very for those of you who aren't familiar with the background on it because I think it's important as to why we chose it so it's a long-running grassroots project which aims to empower communities to manage, share, preserve and exchange their digital heritage and culturally relevant and ethically minded ways its relationship with Aotearoa spans the last few years we've been really active in trying to create engagement in Aotearoa for Mukuru it's really easy to use, I'm not a technical person at all and I've found it incredibly easy to pick up it's worked really well for the mato ranga work that we're doing it's Drupal-based and we're using it largely as a content management system for Te Putero Tiriata It's Aroha Mai, sorry for my pronunciation here Warumungu, an Australian Aboriginal word which means safekeeping place and it's been designed alongside traditional knowledge holders to enable that appropriate sharing so it's great but I really want to emphasise that Mukutu is not at its foundations in Mato Ranga Maori knowledge management platform it's a really good intermediary as Honiana said a really good taki wanga, it's a good middle ground but at its bones it's not Maori and this is really important that my great friend Honiana is really, really hot on it's either Maori or it's not because indigenous knowledge Mato Ranga resides within a quite a different knowledge base altogether for traditional academic disciplines and Linda Tuhoewa-Smith has done some really excellent thinking and writing around this particularly around how the methodologies that we use to get to the point of processing, to get to the point of engagement are just as important as the end result so while we really love the idea of creating our own bespoke database we just simply didn't have the cash but isn't that a great idea so we went with Mukutu because it's indigenous knowledge management principle and relatively inexpensive so we worked with Michael Ashley out of San Francisco the centre of digital archaeology to adapt the very vanilla the very fresh from GitHub Mukutu system to suit what we were doing and we've done a lot of work with them over the last two and a half years some of which I'll show you in a moment so this is a screen of the database just showing you how the letters have been imported and how they present in the database, I'll talk about them a little more in a moment so we started building on the ATLs efforts to digitise the material we started adding a little bit more metadata we did transcriptions of the letters we looked out for new words, we were coming at this from a language revitalisation perspective you have to bear that in mind and actually the funding that we got to do this work after a couple of turn-downs from the cultural heritage sector I won't name any names was actually from a maratirial grant so we had some success in getting traction on this as a language project rather than a cultural heritage project we had the digitised letters on the exhibition floor during those shows that we talked about but it was just too public there was no way that whanau were going to come in and reconnect for the first time with these taonga in such a public space so it was on the basis of that feedback that we started this work I want to mihi to the two Taranaki researchers that worked with us on this project so that's Tanya Hodges-Paul who's the Archive Coordinator at Te Putero Tiriata and Tomairangi Marsh who's also from Taranaki so they had the job of identifying 70 letters that we'd work with in the pilot set splitting them into three sets so those three sets were letters relating to Te Atiawa letters relating to Taranaki and a third, more generic set that we felt quite safe to put in a public space to be able to demonstrate the way that they were going into the database what we were doing with them How am I going for time? Oh, pae, okay I just want to draw on some of the kōrero of Tanya who was working with the letter she was doing the transcriptions so Tanya said it's impossible to consider these letters without feeling why without the potitanga that's the sadness, the heaviness and kind of the intensity of the events that took place through the 1850s and 1860s and she mentioned there that when they were working with these they were always using karakia they were always making sure that they were using te kanga to keep themselves safe through this process I think Tanya's touching on a really, really important aspect of this project that we must consider is that it's the homecoming aspect to Waka Hukanga Kitakanga how the reconciliation and reconnection process can be one of healing, one of affirmation for the descendants of these letters, Ngai Morihū the survivors of those terpina writers confronted by the war the disposition, the loss, the language the loss of culture those of you, some of you might be aware of the Pariaka Apology that happened recently, the Puanga Hayata the Crown Apology to Pariaka for the sacking of the Pa and I'm not at all likening what we're doing to that but it does have an element of that it has to be genuine the terms of the reconciliation of the Waka Hukanga must be genuine and they also must be set by those who have inherited the Mamai the Pōritanga and the Tomaha so very briefly I just want to return to just give you another couple of views here so imported the letter, we've imported the transcription what Mukatū allows us to do is to apply traditional knowledge labels it also allows us to share rights, particular rights so within the database we acknowledge the physical kaitiaki or kaipipuritanga of the Alexander Turnbull but we are also able to assign the intellectual property the sweat of the brow of Te Reo Taranaki and the transcriptions as well as acknowledging the traditional owners through a traditional knowledge license I'm really excited by these traditional knowledge licenses that we're applying in Mukatū I think that there is enormous scope for us to apply them here in Aotearoa I believe the Creative Commons licenses have been translated literally but not conceptually into Te Reo and I suggest that these traditional knowledge licenses are an excellent starting point for us to think about how we might do that for the institutions i, kōira taku much, much more I could talk about so thank you everybody very much like Pia's talk yesterday more than anything what I want to leave you with is rather the fear rather than being feeling confronted by those uncomfortable spaces as Aneana says, do grab them be really inspired by the potential that they create and what can come out of them nera, taku mihi ano koutou munga munga noi hō te hiriwa me te koura i te kuru kuru tanga o taku rau kura e hai kia ora