 Hello, hello Hey Ken to the many unanswered emails that I have back to you or or to your latest one Yes, is the The answer that there are some of the things that we're gonna talk about today It's the it has always been the intention that some of that would go Into academic publication Awesome and if there's an If part of that means collaborating with you all the better It doesn't but I definitely can collaborate if you want no problem But it can it can be I was just he was just asking I'm doing a proposal from my like thesis I did 20 something years ago now, right and he wanted to Update it and submit it and he asked if I knew anyone else that interesting thing is going on in the space And I thought of you so So you definitely don't need me to collaborate on it and you can go in with you know, you and you know Whoever you're working with names on it for sure Oh nice. Okay. Yeah, you you thought of the first You thought of what what nerds do you know Great, thanks. Thanks. I know I know lots of nerds at least you should feel like That's all right because I I have plenty of nerds in my background. I can reach out to you I picked you above them all Wait, were you just we're just digging that hole deeper I felt bad about the yellow snow you were drinking, you know, so I felt like I reach out and give you give you an olive branch Yeah, no moving on moving on Very good We've got the folks that are on the phone if if you've got access to the doc, please drop your name in Record your attendance We've got maybe one more minute before we Get going in this minute It's a great time to add agenda items to the bottom of the list I've actually seen Daniel here is great Daniel. Welcome. Hello speaking of of unanswered emails I'm gonna have an awkward moment here in about 10 minutes. I think I'm Really? Yeah, good to meet you. No worries. Oh, very good. Okay, Danny if I if I may Daniel if I if I may add a Conversation on Submariner as a as a topic if that's how if that's helpful or wanted today, but if not then You know, feel free to take it off. Okay. Actually, we'll see for a few seconds there. Oh You know, I'm dropping on Submariner in as a as a topic Assuming that that's okay, but okay Yeah, we My plan for today was just to say hello and then try to figure out a time to give a presentation I wasn't planning on doing the presentation today. That's okay Sounds good Thanks Nice nice to have you Daniel Daniel since we're shooting the breeze for just the the briefest of moments Anybody else here with you Let me just check the participants. I added it to our community calendar, but no, I don't see any other Submariner people here today Okay, so someone's got to lead the way. I get it Yeah, I'm trying to kind of help with our CNCF Effort been pushing that for a while now Just hurting sheep Yeah, very good. Well, we're folks were we're about six after let's get going if we could It's a couple of you whose names are relative maybe perhaps fresh to me, which is some super encouraged to see Anita here As well as Daniel and then we've got some some familiar names on the call as well Um, this is what I'm about to do is a slightly atypical for most of the CNCF calls that I've that I see and that I participate in But I like to do it on this call anyway, and if it makes anyone feel uncomfortable Don't don't sweat it, but I wanted to so Daniel and I just had a brief interaction Daniel. That was pleasant Hopefully you feel encouraged and welcome. I thought yes. Thank you. Good. Good. Good I'm Anita. Um, I figured it'd be nice to say hi or to let you say hi to everyone. And um, yeah. Hi, can you guys hear me? Yeah. So hi, my name is Anita. Um, I'm actually just subbing in a bit for one of my colleagues who comes here more regularly Christopher Hansen. He's sleeping because he's teaching an India time class now, but um We're both from ArcSum. We're a cloud native training consulting firm and We just like to stay on top things CNCF and Always great to observe and see what's going on in the space. So hi everyone Oh, hello Very good. Very good. Um Thanks for joining. Yeah and Folks, I don't I don't say this enough. Um, ken lets me ramble on and give you know, say bad jokes and that kind of a thing But um, so so ken ellens and and myself are um here as co-chairs of the SIG network. Um, just to familiarize everybody a little bit we have um SIG network it has Trying to think of not very strong language, but um It's the home base for you know, any number of network and traffic and protocol related projects that are within the CNCF And our order of business on those um, it tends to be fairly light and so um, because we have such a strong set of um, sub work streams happening in the CNC in the service mesh working group We've been using this time, uh To advance those initiatives. So we've been spending a lot of time on those So as we get into the topics we'll just to help I don't know that that clarification is totally necessary I think that the the reason I bring it up is because we'll end up speaking about a couple of projects in specific for quite some time And that's not because we don't want to do justice to other projects. It's because It's because we have the time so we so we do it so So if I hopefully that wasn't confusing But so the first couple of items um that we have for SIG network. Um, is just is just a reminder that um emissary ingress or the project that's formerly known as ambassador From ambassador labs from I think formally data wire It's proposed for incubation. It's been proposed for a while now. It's out for public review So if you have the they I know that they appreciate um supportive votes and feedback otherwise So everyone here is welcome to Um go make a comment or go go show support Another thing that was relevant um not to SIG network But to all of the SIGs is that and maybe particularly to SIG network actually now that I think of it is there's a popular kubernetes working group or SIG called SIG network Sound familiar? Yes. Sound confusing Yes, um Kubernetes SIG network is you know focused and concerned with networking within that project um So the two are distinct, but so there's a proposal out right now to Rename the cncf SIGs to cncf tags technical advisory groups That's of interest to people um, Daniel, we actually Happen upon the topic of Submariner fairly fairly quickly Daniel for those that might not be familiar with with the project. Did you mind I'm giving Just letting people know kind of high level what the project is about and we'll put a link to it so that people can Yeah, sure Uh, so just in a few seconds. It's a multi-cluster networking project Uh, we've been working with the multi-cluster networking so again kubernetes following really closely their cap process Implementing multi-cluster networking and service discovery right behind them basically um It's just a healthy open source project that we're open to get into this cncf as well It's kind of the angle that I'm here for um Yeah, happy to talk about other details that people have questions But we'll give a longer presentation with all kinds of details there and Daniel, um the canonical link to the project or the No Submariner.io I can add it to the central submariner.io and then there's a github that Is similarly named Very good Nice good It's been on the been on the radar for a while Or I mean before the even the interactions on here just um I take her for my part I take a note of the project is interesting Cool. Yeah, I thought you found this I think we met very very briefly or I saw you at least at the last in-person kubecon And then we've been working during the pandemic a lot our timing started basically right before the pandemic This one the project ramped up. So Gotcha. Okay. Okay Boy, that seems like forever ago that I actually saw another human Yeah Very good. So then there's a few topics within the service mesh working group um if you're you know, I recommend folks to Peruse the slides here, which talk about I think about five different initiatives within the working group And my hope is that we'll talk about two in depth today Because this initiative the arms right because the working group does have a number of sub working groups And much to to chat through and and things to execute on there's a There's the cncf sig network mailing list Which I believe is The url all the way up to here cncf sig network. There's a um A separate mailing list a sub mailing list if you will for the service mesh working group uh, so that Everyone isn't being Everyone who's focused on c and i for example or on gnats or something isn't being bothered with a bunch of service mesh specific stuff Or to the extent that they want to be that they would they would sign up So please, you know, if you're not signed up on that list and you find what we're talking about today Interesting. Go sign up tell your friends uh, two of the initiatives to cover today one is an update on get nighthawk I'm going to introduce people to nighthawk who aren't as familiar Of which there may be a couple nighthawk is Well, it's a well simply like simply say over Overtly simply stated. It's a load generator That doesn't do the project justice It's a it's a performance. It does performance characterization of layer seven of layer seven traffic for grpc for htp for for htp2 for Has had a lot of features and There's been an open source initiative to help get nighthawk into the hands of many And into one of the other projects that we That we talk about the meshery project So there's a few representatives here today Abhishek was it is it you that wanted to give an update on progress with respect to We continue Yeah, that's right Uh, yeah, thanks Lee probably not uh, so I just want to give a quick progress update on What we had where we had left last meeting um So at this she was in one second So the screen visible it is all right, so This particular documentation is being used to sort of get the track track the design spec and updates and the ongoing process of This particular project will get nighthawk last time when we When we had this meeting we discussed about the The area of concentration on what that what are the next steps that we're going to take On regarding this project So we discussed a couple of items on the ci process how we're going to publish Build the artifacts and publish nighthawk releases on different versions so I didn't put up a design spec about it Over somewhere over here mentioning some of the Key features like the artifact conventions and One second Yeah, basically the whole whole design spec ideas have been updated in this portion So for someone who's not checked it out yet, they can go over here to look at it So right now we've we've managed to Take a couple of steps ahead for on the ci process basically We've got a repository where We are currently building a custom ci For for publishing artifacts on the nighthawk On different distributions of nighthawk bindings so So yeah, like basically this The progress is on that we created a custom Action, yeah, this basically is the definition of the action which takes in Uh, certain parameters like the repository to publish to version of the nighthawk to be released Uh, the operating system architecture based on every different parameter that we are going to Release these different versions And then we we've got also the ci setup ready to be published and right now we We've added support for only two of the operating systems which are one two and macOS So these are the two workflows that have been established now but ongoing Maybe hopefully the next meeting they'll be So yeah, like that that's basically more or less the update on On the ongoing task of get nighthawks Does someone have any questions? Abhishek your voice cut out there right at the end where you were saying that's kind of that's the progress that's been completed and next time we might expect And then and then you cut out. Oh, okay. I'm sorry for that So whatever things that next time we meet uh, we might cover two more distros which would be Fedora that is red hat and also windows We'll cover for windows distributions good Any if there's any along with that Vinayak you've been Working with a few different contributors, but have been Busy behind actually, I think there's a video of you being busy behind the scenes building out the The project website Do you I'm gonna put you on the spot. I Do you uh Have an update there that you'd like to share Okay, so basically the get nighthawk website was so far Meant to be like a single page website to represent the get nighthawk So far we have covered Shall I share my screen? Sure, please Is my screen visible? It is Okay, uh, so basically, uh, this is the site that we have been working on for Get nighthawk and So far we have achieved all this Uh on the site and we plan on to I think implemented dog's collection for this website and customer review section in the future and I also a couple of more things are on the list for example a video section to Demonst demonstrate some of the things and resources for get nighthawk And example implementations Other than this, uh, we are currently Looking Currently making a decision on what the logo for get nighthawk is supposed to be We have a few drafts of it ready And currently doing a informal vote on it There's a link to those draft logos inside of the meeting minutes so So for anyone who has comments or who has A design that they think should be the be the design that represents Get nighthawk, please Please comment Good. I was hopeful that There are a couple of other Project maintainers that said they couldn't make it today But they have been responding asynchronously one of them in particular Really avoids any synchronous communication at all costs so um But anyway, please to see the engagement. Please to see the support from um nighthawk maintainers so Any questions or comments on get nighthawk For obeshack for veneath urban ag As we go to transition to the next topic. I'll I'll say this if um If nighthawk is somewhat unfamiliar to you um There's a couple of really neat things that that load generator is capable of that Is part of the genesis or part of the logic and the genesis behind get nighthawk itself The world the the rest of the world needs to get their hands on it. There's some Interesting ways to characterize performance so Speaking of performance characterization the next topic is service mesh performance And sumku is here with us. Perfect Sumku, there's a couple of folks that that I'm going to put you on the spot as well This is entirely. I don't know that this is fair or not But there's some of the folks that are on the call like blake who've been around the project for a long time And others just coming to to learn what it is do you Do you mind doing a practice introduction of what the project is? Yeah, definitely put me on the spot That's good That's good. So we've been discussing about smp last couple of times I guess the idea where we the discussion came into the point that There are quite a few load generators like like we mentioned and and also What I found running some benchmarks on service mesh type applications that there's some gaps with respect to how performance measurement could be done between lately Tuning versus layer seven tunic with respect to load generators. So in general the idea is you know, so we need a place where where we could discuss some of the methodology standards or Features of how performance benchmarking should be done for service mesh And Discussing with lee we found smp is a good place where we could collaborate and build on here and To the point that this could be a sandbox project within cncf So from that perspective smp provides the The right constructs with respect to where it is going one in terms of automated deployment For example meshry using meshry, but the main thing is it does provide integration of different load generator tools versus different service meshes along with it. So from that sense SMB Can be a place where we could discuss and build on That's the part what I've seen so far You can you can fill in the rest Yeah See it's all down like that Zero prep zero warning. It's all downhill from there. Like you'll hear That was fantastic to Try to add a little more flavor to to what sunko just said is that If if you're in that the meeting minutes and you take a quick look at The service mesh working group charter Uh, well, or you can look at the charter or I guess the slides maybe have it a little more crisply um I can't you know, for my part, I can't tell you how many times either I've been directly asked or I've heard people ask um What's the overhead of a mesh like you know, what how much is this going to cost me and how do I characterize that? How do as I go to you know, use it more and more How do I how do I make sure that? You know, I've got an ongoing analysis or an ongoing Hand on what that is Is did I make the right selection here in terms of technologies? How do these things compare? There's so many variables. And so, you know, there needed to be To sunko's point like a forum for You know vendor neutral forum for some of that discussion for the advancement of some of the studies that that I'm different groups different individuals have been doing and hopefully a common way of capturing and describing performance characteristics of um Well cloud native. Well in some respects cloud native workloads They could be running on a service mesh and they may not be You know much of the goal here is centric to what happens when they are but it's Like that's probably the first question that people You know after after they say hey, what's the overhead they say? Maybe in their minds one of the easiest ways to gauge that overhead is To measure, you know, here's how their app is running today. Here's how much that you know to characterize Its performance and its overhead off the mesh And what it looks like on the mesh and then they start to tune and tweak any number of knobs and and configurations and different service meshes and different versions and and Part of the part of trying to make this body of work useful is after having engaged with A couple of universities questions around What applications what cloud native workloads are Represented are you know good ones to study and use and disseminate knowledge on Which ones are representative of you know The most common workloads that others would have So just even the topic of what's what are good sample apps? Which ones are available? Where are they available from? Cornell had been there's a professor there that had worked on a few they've published a couple um, I think you know much like Okay, it was one one topic another kind of topic to add additional flavor to what Sunku was saying is that Well, there's any any number of configurations of not just the infrastructure the mesh what it's doing your applications How many nodes and clusters and all that all that stuff, but there's also A myriad of Um test configurations. So Is this a silk test a capacity test a stress test? Is this going on for 10 days? Does it go on for 10 minutes? You know, are you how how is the how, you know, there's all kinds of knobs to tweak on the load generators? How are they behaving different load generator different load generators measure differently? There's just there's just so much to all of this that That's a large part like the genesis of why this stuff was created. You'll often hear about smp and to Sunku's point like the One of the first tools to implement this spec Meshory, you'll hear them talked about often together one because because these are both new and kind of Driven towards part of the same goal that part of their shared same goal is Is that of making it easy to repeat and run these tests but not necessarily against sample apps against users apps, you know against whatever those are and in whatever environment they have because Because it's all bespoke, you know to their environment. And so it's about empowering others to go off and answer these questions because I'm part of the goal and part of what I'm hopeful that You know, Sunku and the rest of you that are here will Commit to and and that we will collectively go off and do is You know defining working with these service mesh Groups or or those that aren't running on a mesh fine. Um, what are what are those? representative workloads what what I think while I while I personally consider almost any almost any Benchmark almost any load test that you want to define and run is is valid Some of them are not very useful because you know, no one's got that type of a configuration or or that load never hits their services in that way That's important where I'm, you know, excited that that Sunku and the rest of you are helping advance this because Those are things that that many of you know a lot better Yeah To add on to that what we see Especially in terms of blogs being published a lot of folks have done different Type of analysis and some performance numbers whether you see is still or on what All right, so there's some suggestions of what could be done, but then they need a place and a little bit more traction in terms of You know establishing a standard patterns like you mentioned Lee and also Our best practice is to see how best to characterize a mesh, you know What are the aspects to look for and that is not there today from what I see across and So how can we I guess the question is how can we you know Bring together that type of discussion to hear and ensure that you know, some of these work is represented across multiple meshes or Methodologies that being discussed online. How can we make it uniform? So that's easier to understand consume All right, so um, and one of the thing Lee discussed was having this project as a sandbox project in the RCNCF so that it's has much better visibility Make it easier to for folks to contribute and also participate Uh, but and just open to ideas as to see can it bring in Opinions as to what else we could do here. Yeah, everyone else is getting put on the spot today. This is this There's a you know, it's um Maybe I'll have one more comment and that is like soon could to your point. Um That that's one of those That's what I would expect and maybe Josh, I think you're the only one that maybe hasn't gotten put on the spot yet. I don't know but is When you're like, what is important? What are the important signals to measure? Yes, when I say signals, maybe some of you think about the four golden signals from the site reliability book So I guess I guess I probably am not the right person answer. It's just being I don't want to say new to the space but um Unfortunately, I'm usually on the side of implementing the technology that other folks go to do the performance for us um, I have some folks in the Company I worked at that I could probably ask what they're looking for and uh provide feedback that way but um Yeah, just off the top of my head. I don't really know I don't really know what I would recommend or throw out there Thank you, Josh. That that's yeah. Yes. Actually I'm from From my part, I would love to um for others to bear weight on that or to express opinion on um How important Latency is and the measure, you know the long tail latency and CQ maybe cq doesn't matter at all I will say just having had to troubleshoot some apps recently where we were running into capacity issues I'm finding out that actually one of the things we were setting cluster level is actually application level, but it's still Still played into it. I mean having that visibility um Cross not just things that we see Obviously the kubernetes are back playing which is where they thought the problem was but within a java app There's a memory and heat limitation that they were hitting up against causing the app to Keep crashing out and then they thought it was kubernetes limit causing it to then regenerate the pods, but being able to see it from the app level and then through the uh Through what what our settings are and actually I guess if No, I don't know is smp pulling in values for Limits that have been set at say the cluster level. So you you may be looking at performance, but you could also see what percentage Of your limits you're you're filling in so say I'm you know, I'm allocating only two gigs max memory to an application that's deployed Would that apps hitting you know, 80% of that limit not just saying hey, this is the performance you're getting out of it But also by the way, you're you're pushing really close to a boundary you may want to be aware of To increase that limit. I know that kind of visibility is very helpful for us ops folks Because we don't know when to go increase things until something Obviously keeps crashing and somebody calls us and we're like, oh, yeah, you keep hitting You know limit let us up that for you or whatever Right because you may be hitting the upper yeah, you may be hitting the upper bounds of Something that was either intentionally or maybe unintentionally configured, but it's a soft limit. That's um, that's specified and then causing you Causing you issues so like if you're not if you're unaware if you're unaware of the fact that there's a governor Or or a limit to find That then yeah, you may you may be off trouble right and I guess Yeah, we can obviously run all sorts of low generation tests and things and spec out and And figure out what we want to set things at then once you actually get into production It's usually a different beast and like you said those limits that are set Are sometimes blind to the application owners the developers They don't know what we've said at the operational level And so they're being called in trying to figure out why the app is not stable or whatever And really it's it's something else. So if there's a way to scrape that data together say when we know the app performs well Here and we see something you know going on. That's great. But at the same time it's your apps perform like it should You're just hitting these these boundaries that have been put on you And maybe that's something that's already in this application. I don't know enough about smp to know If it's if that's something that's already baked into the product I need to play with it a bit To understand what it can and can't do already This is this is a fantastic conversation Joshua like while like to answer your question very directly and sort of explicitly like while SMP doesn't capture the limit like a limit that's defined on a pod or Or across an interface today Maybe it should one But then two even if it didn't a long term that's still the a very healthy type of a conversation or type of Um information to disseminate You know through a project like this to to To let others know that they might be on a wild goose chase that like hey It you know some certain percentage of the time you're actually you're chasing down a performance issue that's actually Um, you actually configured your infrastructure to do that your your configuration is working you're being limited and it that's like Anyway that type of a disc like a that's a I'm gonna try to I'm I'm gonna make a note about consideration for that and asking folks They're on this call and and elsewhere to to comment on whether or not to include limits in The spec and then Even to the extent that they don't I'm josh to the extent that you keep coming here I might encourage you To like put put pen to paper on just a couple of the things that you just said because it's just Part of what the the charter of the project part of what we're trying to to do with s&p is Enable a standard way to measure things Enable people with a bunch of knowledge You know tests that have been run and results and things that they can see hopefully on Um on something of a regular cadence is to empower the service mesh projects themselves to measure themselves in a uniform way use And publish those results and in a way in which They're in hopefully a more fair way than they're being measured today because they're being measured today and And doing doing these measurements is pretty pretty difficult And there and those results being published and a lot of times they're not They're not it's not quite fair. It's either something's being compared and they're not apples to apples or Or it's not being compared but Someone forgot to turn debug off or something like someone forgot to actually tune their configuration. So Some of these projects are getting pie in the face when they shouldn't or you know egg in the eye and they shouldn't So when these tests are running are are they like you kind of set up? a traffic simulation of what you want to run through it or Are there like is there like a real world mix right because I I know what you're saying You know networking guy all the time We always see these specs of what throughput you can achieve But that's what like perfect sized frames going across the wire like they they they really They put the perfect workloads across them to show how fast those work But in a real world mix we see a lot more fragmentation or a lot more A lot, you know much smaller packets and many many more packets need to be handled things like that so Is there I guess how is that mix that mix being generated? And and then obviously you'd want to use that same workload against all your different Different items you're testing against so it's a fair A fair comparison right each group gets a set of their own tests They're going to obviously lean towards a test that makes them look good versus one then there may be not so good at Josh I that's such a what an excellent um topic that you just opened like like yes, of course and uh Like use of the service mesh really facilitate doing just that like At runtime of the tests Manipulating the mesh and telling the mesh to introduce some chaos Is one make one way of You know mixing up the test And another one is taking advantage of the load generator itself and its ability to to do just that its ability to inject faults or And and that's very much so squarely In the wheelhouse of what the spec should be considering for Do you know if it has like a Playback capability, so this this is actually use case that we're looking for today with a certain application That's in a an environment where it doesn't have The dev environment that we're practicing in doesn't have the same access to components that the production environment does so We what we want to do is just take like a packet capture or record the traffic And i've done this with other products on the market that you know sell very big iron appliances that can record A certain traffic simulation and then you go and play it back In your test environment to get get that there's that or am i going down like a whole rabbit trail It's not even a part of this product's capability or Or a test set that we want to look at Out Um So you're doing you're doing a beautiful you're doing a beautiful thing, which is almost exactly what synco had done last time which is we were talking about service talking about nighthawk and we were talking about Mechery And you know part of his question was hey, where's the where's the lining of these things? And you're actually broaching that same thing is like you're right that like hey the service As a specification What what is it capable of well, it's capable of capturing and characterizing In just in written form like in yaml form Capturing and characterizing Performance and how you're generating load what your environment is like what your configuration is like, you know Like doing that in a uniform way. So it so it's a specification that's Like unto its own it's kind of static in nature. It's sort of like, you know, here's a document this document is written in In accordance with this specification You can take this document this specification that describes all of my environment the way that I'm You know Generating a bunch of load real quickly and then backing off and then generate, you know, like that describes all those things I can exchange it with others and Have them run similar tests SMP itself isn't Isn't a capability, but it's a specification that other projects can implement And the first one to have implemented it is is this one meshery the use cases of like traffic recording traffic playback or like Or to generate test after test or like performance test after test is why Is why we're talking about meshery nighthawk and the spec So the spec being a document a standard way of capturing and characterizing all those concerns and considerations How long do I run the test for at what intensity? Using what protocol from what vector like how many load generators were there generating that load or how many playback generator not generators, but how many How many of those same load generators generators were playing back the messages And then to use the load generator to to do it the one that we're You know spending a lot of time on is is the load generator nighthawk And then to be able to to schedule it To capture the output of the tests to be able to compare the tests to share those tests Centralize them do studies over them to make it easy to repeat You know have a repeatable tooling to to measure these things is why we talk about meshery Um So yeah, so like what a beautiful you just sort of ran the gamut of the projects The whole stack. Okay. Yeah, that's kind of right now. That's where I'll I'll display my ignorance in this case is between these products knowing They're set so thank you for explaining that that helps a lot So with s and p we're talking the spec itself Like you said definition of what's going on or what to do and then the other products coming into play You know Getting that hot going in and actually doing the generation of those workloads and stuff like that and then meshery being that The current or one of the platforms that implemented the ability to actually let us Let us try it out in their platform That makes sense. Thank you. Thank you Look at that josh you I was just kidding about putting you on the spot and now you just explained the You just explained three of the projects and once Okay So so So the in the next 15 minutes kind of I think, you know, unless someone else has another topic, which I'll pause for The next topic was going to be um donating s and p to the cncf I'm the subsequent donation that I think that we I know there's been planned for a long time as the donation of meshery as well to the cncf So I'll pause before we talk about mechanics in terms of donation Is everybody question I'd send an email to the service mesh working group email list Not sure if anybody got it Outlook gave me a This email doesn't make this type of reply I got I ended up getting it. Yeah, I'm if that Okay, that's great. Yeah, I had to send it via the yeah the website. I wasn't able to send it via my email client So I'm not sure what the issue is but anyway, if that's working Find the way Yeah, and soon could you Yeah, yeah, exactly. So on I'll wait a second soon cool. I think I'm having the same problems I had sent a couple of emails one yesterday and one today and they don't Seem to be showing up Did did sunku did you get an email about the nighthawk logos by chance? Because it but when I send it via the my outlook it didn't go through Okay, I have to I'm glad that you brought this up because there's a couple that I've sent to the mailing list now that don't Okay, there was some network lag and I'm not sure if that was me here Everybody else. But yeah, I get your point I think I think it was on my side as well Okay Well fair enough. Well, there's um, you know by by number I think the majority of you that are on the call have had some amount of helping hand in smp or Or maybe just learning about it and have a potential vested interest Um, uh I think uh ken I think has already is already helping us get Um get there and get this thing submitted. It's a You know, here's an open opportunity for people to make their mark on an upcoming project This one has been socialized with the cncf toc I think more times than they probably cared it. I've heard about it. Um And it you know, it certainly strikes a chord because it's In it in it, you know, from my perspective it the cncf is a great home for an initiative like this because It needs to be in a a vendor neutral place. We're just trying trying to um, the goal here is Standardization and um information is to So so point is um part of the product the mechanics of donating the project is to fill in answer some questions These are the questions and the link to those questions is here here That doc was just created half an hour ago. So So is this kind of like a vision as to what the our goals of the project that we want to establish? once it's It's a sandbath project fine-stand, right Um, yeah, and well are this this particular doc is it's actually literally just a copy of The google form that is now used to submit cncf projects Okay, and and so I just copied and pasted the questions off the form into a google doc figuring What no better way than to invite others to participate than? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah I will go through that and um respond to it by tomorrow No, the deadline I mentioned is 23rd, I guess right so I want to review by before that and then Suga one of the things that you just said though about part of the charter and the vision for smp While we sort of reviewed Some some of that right now. I don't know that it is extraordinarily explicitly stated Prominently like it is it is explicitly stated in a few different places and some google docs over here And maybe in a blog post or something over here, but in my mind That could be made a little more Prominent or like hey, is it an ongoing goal? I would expect like once smp were to land into the cncf Is it an ongoing goal to to publish some benchmarks or is it a goal to devise what what the group considers to be worthy benchmarks things worthy of looking at Are there a couple of iot centric ones or a couple of uh, 5g centric ones or there are a couple of and uh Like to to your point about vision and scope. I think there's room for clarification Absolutely, I think as part of the proposal or the questionnaire we can mention that also we can also note Possibly write a blog along same lines. I know smp. We were talking about publishing a blog Whatever we are listing here. We could possibly summarize it in a blog and It goes with that and publish it in smp site Yes resoundingly yes That's an Yeah, internally we have to go through quite a few legal reviews or some reviews before You know, I can put in my name, but yeah, happy to kind of collaborate here and to find the procedure Within my company how how I can participate here But I think it's a no-brainer to kind of put it out there and smp sites. It's very clear For anyone who's looking at it So you may be a stronger a stronger person than me I have I have quit a large general large tech companies for less than Than having to suffer through that project process Yeah, I know So we go ahead, but yeah, no, there's some good blocks you have written already. So I think we can build on that Okay, hopefully hopefully all the rest of you feel like that's an invitation for you as well Please please if you're interested, please do same thing goes for get nighthawk and for meshery and there's There's there's actually a lot to nighthawk and there's there's even much much more to meshery much that hasn't been espoused and written down so Oh one one last item. Um, whoops it can I don't I don't know if If you mind me raising up this topic The um, josh was giving some fantastic perspective, you know from from is ken still on Oh, I think yeah, okay. You think you had a drop? Good. Anyway, um, one of the things that ken was privately suggesting is that um If whether or not you know this or not, there's a there's another service mesh working group in the cncf and it's the is the end users Service mesh working group soliciting input um Excuse me input um from that collection of of individuals For my part, I think that that would be a wonderful thing to do to ask them if there are specific types of benchmarks or like to josh's point Do they see a particular pattern that really causes their um applications issues Do the is it is is much of their concern relegated to the mechanics of uh A canary rollout something that's a bit more You know that that's kind of specific to a surface mesh and what a surface mesh might be helping to facilitate Drop packets in between or redirect or the concerns around um a packet capture and a replay of that When you're replaying those same packets and yet You know if you're replaying If someone just submitted a payment to your service and you're replaying that in prod like Maybe you're charging them, you know more than you should So anyway, I totally digressed my the point was there's another um There's another working group to Socialize some of these questions with questions with and solicit feedback from So, um I'm sorry. Yeah, so good. Uh, no, uh, along this this topic. I'm surprised. There's another working group. Actually, I did not tell them So is uh, is there enough synergy that can be combined into two or is it total different charters? Oh, there's enough synergy. I would have been it is against my will that there are two or uh For my part and the reason that the in but actually there's a lot of logic as to why there are two It's I don't I don't actively For my part, I don't actively complain the concept the notion is Um, so that end users can I'm talk amongst themselves freely without harassment or suggestive comments from vendors It's kind of the um, is the Line of delineation Seems like it's more end user not just service mesh, but in general end user focus. There are a few other groups that are Uh in parallel to some of the technical working groups if I understand, right? Yeah, yeah, that's right. There's a whole you're right. There's a collection of um different Um, I yeah, I think they are called work. They are called working groups But there's an end user area and within there. There's a few different working groups on different topics that Get together and and yeah, you cannot work for or That's part of the divide is like consumers versus producers or Okay But that said what an opportunity lost not to um, have some of that exchange to be able to solicit um The complaints and provide those to those that are producing the tech or Invites for size. That's a good idea. Definitely And and they've warmed up to that now They've had a change of guard and with that a change of perspective So that's so it's another kind to do item there is to Make that connection On that topic as we go to wrap up here Anita. Um, it strikes me that you might be in You might end up in or interfacing with clients or or you consumers users as you guys go to um assist them In their use of some of this tech I'll plant a seed in your mind to think about it, you know, if This is an open forum for You know, some of that feedback about where people are really struggling Alrighty And Anita, you might have said something but you're on mute. Sorry about that double muted um I was going to say, uh, yeah, I'm not as much on the technical side But some of our consultants obviously they are and they would be um interested so I'm taking notes. That's part of what I'm in the meeting. Uh, so I'll Be sure to put a line and uh to talk about like callouts for if there's any kind of Specific issues or queries that might come up that might be relevant for you guys Please that would that be nice. It's it's yeah, otherwise we're just Making stuff up Working back. It was not fun. So it's totally understand. All right, anything else Okay Thank you all. Uh, same time in a couple of weeks. I'm Daniel Daniel, you're you're whether you're asking for it or not. We're penciling you in All right, it sounds good. We'll schedule some people to join us Okay, see you all in a couple weeks. Bye. See you guys