 A very good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to the third edition of the E4M Health Communication Conference, 2020. My name is Bhadna Bhati and I'll be your host for the day. What life will be like in 2025 in the wake of the outbreak of the global pandemic and other prices in 2020, some 915 innovators, developers, business and policy leaders, researchers and activists have responded. The broad and nearly universal view is that people's relationship with technology will deepen as larger segments of the population come to rely more on digital connections for work, education, health care, daily commercial transactions and essential social interactions. A number describes this as a telly everything world. Taken together, it appears that in the wake of pandemic we're moving faster towards a data-driven global network society than ever before. Well, before we get started, we'd like to thank all our partners whose contribution this event wouldn't have been possible. Well, our hashtag for the event is hashtag E4M, FTC as one word. So why don't you keep tweeting and show us how excited you are to find out who will be the speakers for today. Also, we'd like to thank our partners. First up, the tagline being the real, our gold partners being teamwork, teamwork communication group, delivering campaign that make a difference, our co-goal partner being we do its wellness solution with lifelong stay young. Ladies and gentlemen, with this, the theme for this year's conference is the evolving phase of health and wellness marketing and communications vision 2025. It is now my honor to call upon none other than Dr. Anurag Batra, Chairman and Editor-in-Chief Exchange for Media Group and BW Business School to kindly join us for the welcome address. Thank you, Dr. Batra, for joining us. Over to you. Good afternoon, Bhavna. It's my honor and privilege to welcome all of you to the third edition of the E4M HealthCom Marketing Communication Summit and Awards. This is the third edition. We are doing the conference in the Conclay virtually, but in the evening in Mumbai, we have the third edition of the HealthCom Marketing Summit and Awards and we look forward to the winners being celebrated and being awarded tonight. Let me say that we started this initiative at Exchange for Media much before COVID. We believe that health is an attribute and health as a category. Both were very important for brands and businesses, and especially when it came to communicating health benefits. That of course, post the pandemic has become very, very important for every business and every brand. Health has become a very central part of the communications of brands. Health attributes in products, services have become a very important part of communication. So really, in some way, God helped us see this trend much before Corona happened and we were able to put together the first initiative in 2019. This year, the jury for the E4M HealthCom Awards was chaired by Dr. Irwin Lal and you'll see the winners today. They've been selected through a robust jury process. Health is wealth. We've heard this adage many times in the past when we were younger and throughout our journey. In the last 30 odd months, we've really realized that health, immunity, well-being are all intertwined. Health, well-being and immunity are important to our existence. And I think one of the positives of COVID has been the fact that organization and individuals have become more health conscious, whether it's physical health, it's mental health, or it is overall well-being. And hence, health and health communication has become evolved and very specialized and very nuanced. E4M HealthCom Awards and Summit recognizes that celebrates that and puts together the best practices out there. Today, you will see that more than 50 such winners will be awarded and we'll showcase the award-winning entries editorially to be able to showcase what these best practices are, why certain entries won. So I hope you have a day of learnings of good health throughout the day and we look forward to celebrating the evening with you at the awards. Back to you, Bhavna. Good luck to all the award winners and the ones that were shortlisted but didn't win, keep up the good work, I'm sure. You'll be able to win next year. Thank you, God bless you. Thank you so much, Dr. Bhattra, for joining us and giving us those valuable awards right at the start of our event. Well, ladies and gentlemen, with this, I'd like to once again humbly thank our partners, part-by-partners at the real Gold Partner Teamwork, Teamwork Communication Group, delivering campaign that makes a difference and four-goal partner being V-Roots Wellness Solutions, Live Long, Stay Young. Could we now have the partner areas? Imagine you are able to unlock all the hidden potential within you. You perform at peak levels in all areas of life. You will be called as a super human. V-Roots stands to create such super humans. V-Roots is all about the essence of life. However, our approach is deeply rooted in science. V-Roots believes in high levels of personalization, personalized diet plans, personalized fitness plans, even personalized yoga and meditations. It is called personalized lifestyle modification using epigenetics. In fact, V-Roots is the first ever epigenetic lifestyle modification company in the world. At V-Roots, we focus on an overall life enhancement of people. We are not just in the business of nutritional supplements or genetic testing. Rather, we are helping people to take charge of their biology and psychology using biohacking, which will help you to live long and stay young. This is made possible by our cutting edge epigenetic lifestyle modification process. A highly personalized lifestyle modification recommendation based on a proprietary genome metabolic analysis with the support of artificial intelligence helps people to take charge of their health. We provide world-class wellness products. V-Roots products are a convergence of ancient wellness wisdom and modern scientific research. Our products stand on three pillars, purity, safety, and efficacy. Our mission is to create a superhuman movement, which is possible only when we add a human touch into the scientific wellness process. V-Roots is in the forefront of next generation wellness revolution to create superhumans who are empowered by science to ignite their infinite potential. Well, an immense thank you to all our partners for being with us on this very event. Well, ladies and gentlemen, first up, we've got the most exciting and awaited panel discussion for the day, which is health tech from hospitals to homes. Technologies like artificial intelligence, automation, and Internet of Things have calculated into almost every aspect of healthcare today. Wouldn't you agree on that? And how do we see the future unraveling? Well, with more healthcare mobile apps in the making, be it booking an ambulance in a click or getting tests done in a day without even stepping outside, do we really see cloud healthcare services becoming a thing and much more? Well, with this, it is my honor to now invite Ashish Pajaj, Chief Marketing Officer, Narayana Hel, Sanjeev Nayar, the Chairman and Founder of WeRoots Wellness Solutions, Anuja Alarwal, Head of Marketing, Sanofi Pasture, and Prithim Alex, Head of Marketing Communications, Apollo Prottin Cancer Center, with the session chair being Harvinder Naruula, CEO, BW Healthcare World, and BW Wellbeing World. Well, it is an honor to have all of you join us and it just stays with all our smiles on the screen and the infectious energy that we are looking forward to your panel. Mr. Harvinder Naruula, I think it's time for you to take forward as the session chair and continue the live creative. Thank you, Bhavna. You know what? Technology has changed the way we look at healthcare today and it's allied services that are today accessed, delivered and paid for. It is amazing to see how today the customer, that is the patients and their families are becoming more informed than ever before, and also have more choices than they had ever before, which means that healthcare providers need to make efforts to not only share more information about who they are and what they do, they also need to give a reason why should the care seeker choose them. To discuss this modern phase of healthcare marketing we have with us the panelists that have been introduced. So without wasting too much of time, I will jump into asking questions because I have a list of questions that are really, really something that I really want an answer for. So let me begin with asking everyone. So one of you can choose to take the lead in answering this question, that how has technology enabled healthcare to evolve to a point where diagnosis and care to a large extent are brought to the patient's doorstep today? So I'll start. Hi everyone. Thanks for having me on the panel as well. So Abhinderji, it was in making, see the healthcare industry over as many as decades we all know has been into a different orbit and to moving it to consumer centricity slash the patient's centricity, it had to happen. And there were tries that happened, say six, seven years back, but ultimately we all know the movement happened in the last two and a half, three years. And it has actually made it come into the center because everywhere around us from 2011, 2012, everything around us has been started moving to consumer first. It was just a time for healthcare also to move into that direction. And now it's beautiful. See imagine how as a consumer or a patient, everything is coming to my doorstep, whether I live alone, whether I'm an old age person or I don't have anyone in that emergency or emergency situation to take care of me, I still have something to take care of my health. So that movement was supposed to happen, but thanks in the last three years, it has been a great shift. So Anujaji, would you want to add to this? Sure, I think I have two more, I think great messages Ashish, just to add, I think two things. Firstly, the whole tech revolution has while being fueled by healthcare industry, there is a huge role that has been played by the technology industry as well. So whether we look at apples of the world or Samsung, so the technology has enabled far more advancement and awareness amongst consumers at their doorstep. Secondly, there is a huge and a very exciting ecosystem of healthcare startups and tech startups in India who've enabled and enabled the consumer to have healthcare available at their doorstep. I think the two coming together, along with of course the healthcare boom that has happened, has enabled consumers today to be far more in control of their own health, be far more aware. And these solutions are now available at doorstep. I would still say far more in metros and mini metros, but access is the next step for health tech in my view. Sanjeevji, you have a view on this? Yeah, absolutely. I have been working in the field of preventive health and wellness. So I would rather say that more than the conventional medical systems, I think the preventive health and wellness, the growth has happened primarily because of the backup of technology. There is no doubt about it because generally whenever it comes to empowering people or generally whenever it comes to health, the first thing common people think about is a doctor or a hospital or a clinic. They never think that they are responsible for their health. So and also there has been lack of medium or the methods to reach out to the consumers for products or services which are actually targeted towards preventive health. But I would rather say that because of these technological disruptions which has happened and as more and more people started coming into this online media, online videos and all those kinds of things, social media, which has created a huge level of awareness among people about, yes, I can also take charge, like Ms. Anuja said, empowering people when they also should know that I can take charge of my health. So that has happened only because of the technological advancement which has happened right now where we have right from the data science which is helping us to understand deeper level of data and also using deep learning techniques like the artificial intelligence and you can connect that with devices like the various IOTs. So it's gonna be a different world altogether when we present a small, maybe a one centimeter by three or four centimeter ECG six lead machine to a person. It's a wow factor, like in the sense that, oh, I can do that at home. I can put it in my pocket, ECG machine. I can put in the pocket and walk around and do it. So it's actually, I would rather say thanks to technology for this kind of a major, major advancement for preventive health. Got it. Thank you so much, Sanjeevi. Alex, you have a point of view on this. Yeah. So in this era, in our phone, what we have is all OTT services, right from prime and Netflix and now online delivery. Of course, hospitals and telemedicine also made their way. So that has clearly showed us the way a phone can operate, you know. Earlier it used to be, okay, let's go visit our family doctor immediately when you get a fever. Now, when you get a fever, immediately what you do is pick up your phone, either Google for a solution or use an app. So now instead of Googling where we present is in the app model. So something which has been evolving over these years and I think, you know, healthcare and I would say not even technology, mobile phones is our closest buddy for this evolution. Got it. Ashish, let me come back to you. Now, one thing that pandemic has taught us is that the patient care can be provided at home, right? Now, do you think that the home care and the home services are finding increased level of acceptance because, you know, these services have been in existence for many years, you know, so the care provider was ready with it, but the acceptance levels were very low. Now, of course, the need got, you know, came into forefront because of pandemic, but is there a role that marketing communications have played in growing this acceptance? Absolutely, as much as the environment was conducive for all the tech and telemedicine and home care solutions, I think marketing has played a great role in terms of providing the right kind of information for the consumer to be looking out how to utilize these services. Those kinds of content coming to us, how can I live with COVID or how can I do a teleconcertation as basic as that? And if there is a requirement of habit change, I think marketing has been the best solution for making that habit change in consumers. So that has been seen, a lot of healthcare brands came together and produced a lot of content which could enable such influx of consumers in the right space in terms of using all the digital solutions. So I think it has a tremendous role which has been played over the last couple of years, but it doesn't end here. If I've got the way of telemedicine, it has to keep growing. So more and more use cases have to be told to the consumer and the right form of usage has to be developed. So, Preetam, let me come to you. What we have seen is that India is going through a phase where healthcare is plagued with suspicion from the point of view of the patient. What is it that the marketers are doing to overcome this challenge? Or do you see it as an opportunity for new age healthcare providers who are now providing direct to consumer or direct to patient services? How are you using it as a advantage for your organization? So, yes. First, I would say, as you always quoted, ours is a brand which always stands out. Any brand which stands out with respect to services, first, consumers look at that. And how are we going to provide the best of the care? So our clinicians, our doctors are the next set of people who stand out to be unique amongst people in the market. And third, I would say the awareness which brings out the services and the technology and the best of treatments which are available in our country itself. So, putting all three together, I think we will be able to differentiate ourselves and then use this opportunity to enhance and to promote what is best we have and what is best our consumers need. So I would see this as an opportunity rather than a challenge. Sanjeev Ji, pandemic has raised levels of consciousness among people in general. And this has led to prevention and which has further led to overall wellness or well-being. At least people are more mindful about it. So how is we roots using technology to add quality of life to humans, taking preventive healthcare to the mainstream? I think wellness or preventive health rather I would rather say wellness has been a growing industry for the last maybe two decades in this country. Globally also, but especially in India from since 2000, we have been seeing a lot of nutrition supplement companies, fitness centers, meditation centers, yoga studios coming up in big way. At the same time, there has been many of this medical practitioners who's been sceptic about the kind of growth of wellness products because people started popping so many different supplements and they are jumping into different types of fitness programs. So we really don't know whether that is good for them or not, popping in all these kinds of different supplements and is there a highly recommended thing because it's all OTC and primarily sold online. That's even though I have been also selling nutrition supplements, that's the time I also started realizing the importance of personalization, personalized health is so critical. And thanks to the genomic personal genomic advancements which has happened in the world since 2003 since the human genomic, science is open to the world. There's been many companies which has been working. So 2018, that was the time we started working on this project of epigenetic lifestyle modification based on genomic and also metabolic assessments. We started with genomic assessments. We created a major 250 health condition assessments predisposition assessments, primarily. But later we found that that is not giving that kind of a good result because even if you get this report and say that you have got risk for so many different factors, it is actually not helping you. Sometimes it may scare you also. So that's where we added the metabolic assessment into it and our team of doctors curated the questions and we created a mobile app, a very user-friendly mobile app. And then we brought in machine learning to converge or rather correlate this 250 genomic condition and also 70 metabolic conditions. And now what we are coming out with is a highly personalized lifestyle modification plan, which is something like an operating manual for the rest of the life. It is not that it's a solution for everything, but at the same time, you know exactly what kind of diseases for which you are carrying a high risk number one. Number two is that you also know that which are the factors, whether there's a nutrition factors or some other genetic factors, which are going to cause this may be based on that taking some, I would rather say informed choices, that is what WHO is talking about this kind of process, informed choices you would be able to prevent or postpone the possibility of this kind of diseases. The advantage or rather the, what we have seen the last three years is that words like, you were talking about the post COVID or COVID period, the words like DNA, words like genomic, words like genetics, which became very common. So I would rather say that, even though we did our MVP, the kind of test project in 2019 and we commercially launched in 2020 November, I would rather say that, we got such an amazing response in the market, which I'm sure that it wouldn't have happened maybe in the pre COVID, because the COVID has made people to understand themselves. They want to take charge, they don't want to leave the responsibility of managing their health to somebody else. So if there is a possibility and also there has been so many incidents like, people go to keto diet and get their kidney damaged, somebody goes to the gym and go for the fitness, on the gym floor, they collapse. So people started realizing the importance of personalized health. And there, the question you asked to I think Ashish, I would rather add that because marketing communications has played a major, major role in this all space, because earlier when it comes to healthcare or medical, it was taboo, it's not like you cannot market, but now the advantage is that you have so much of content and great content writers out there. So they create beautiful contents which are useful for the public. It's not, you are not selling any product or service, you are actually providing information, just leading them to this kind of value added services. I would rather say, the environment, the timing is so beautiful in this country for the services like what we are doing right now. I totally agree with you, Sanjeev Ji that we are moving more towards community building rather than selling as an objective and selling actually has, is an outcome of building a community or a tribe around what you are doing. Anuja, you spoke about, you mentioned about the lack of services in tier two, tier three. So my next question is pointed towards that. Internet, we marketeers coined this term that the world is becoming smaller, the geographic boundaries are blurring. Similar thing is happening in the field of healthcare. Because of technology, the gap that existed between tier two, tier three, tier one is now getting bridged with the help of tele-consultations, tele-health, et cetera. Now, how do you see the future of healthcare in these smaller towns unraveling? Keeping in mind that tech could replace the gap quicker than the infrastructure development. Absolutely, I think great question. In my view, and I don't think there's one answer to this. In my view, what is happening today? I think Ashish and Sanjeev also spoke about the content explosion that is happening. And with access to internet, there's far more awareness that's available today and far more information available to consumers at all strata. I think the challenge continues to remain around one trustworthy information. Secondly, how to have access to the right facilities. For example, we do a lot of communication for consumers, especially being in the vaccines area. Along with the doctor, the consumer and his own awareness as a healthy individual is far more important. And it is important for us to reach to him so that he knows these are the preventable diseases that he should be protecting himself and the family against and across all tiers. Now, the challenge continues to be, for example, the innovations that we try to do are on languages. So we try to go as vernacular as possible. And that's a step for us to be heard far better in smaller geographies. For example, I remember we were doing a Facebook live on one of the therapy areas. And my father-in-law said, how many people actually listen to this in English? And so from a consumer perspective, I think we have to be far more consumer-centric to know what these consumers are looking for in terms of reliable information and information that makes sense to them. For access to information is not a challenge anymore. I think it's more about being customized to them and then giving them the access to these services. For example, a lot of doorstep services today exist only in certain pin codes in the country and is not really available at a tier three level. So those would be some big advancements that could lead to a step change. You know what? The biggest reason that came about and it has been probably published in a lot of studies that the biggest reason for dissatisfaction in healthcare that the patients usually complain about is a doctor does not hear them out. Doctor doesn't give us enough time. He doesn't listen to us. He doesn't listen to us when he cares about us. So now in this new age healthcare where technology is taking precedence over physical connect with the healthcare provider, how do brands keep their communication and messaging relevant to create a human touch in the world which is led by technology? So Preetam or anyone who wants to answer this. I can actually add a line here if you're okay. I think this is something very close to our heart. In terms of communication, what we at least try to do is to make sure that while doctor continues to remain at the center of the communication, how do we make it? Like you're right here, it's a mundane job for a doctor to repeat the same explanation after explanation and to a consumer, it is the most important thing. So we actually have done a lot of solutions which are some of which are in MVP stage also to create counseling kits and counseling tools about digital and physical, which takes away a lot of burden from the doctor in terms of pre-soaking the customer. There was also another piece of work we did to look at top 40 questions that people search on Google actually. And then create a kit which actually contained answers to all of those in forms of articles and videos. And that was pre-soaked into the incoming patients who had an appointment for. However, this is a very ideal world scenario. We don't have all tools and equipments at all places. But wherever this is done, it trees up a lot of time from the doctor in the interaction with the parent or with the adult and really spend time on more meaningful conversation which a parent is looking for. So yeah, I think it is highly critical and very underrated at today's point in time. Feed them back to you. So I have two submissions in this. Basically, whatever technology comes in, patient really wants to interact with doctors. And for example, our consultations in our unit, the time is around one and a half hours. So literally one and a half hours doctors sit and make sure they clear their doubts and everything. So technology, even if it's a virtual consultation which happens across the world, it still goes for hours. The doctor patiently make sure conveys the right message because the complexity of the treatment such that the patients are so much aware of all the treatment right from side effects, the plus, the minuses, what the medicines, the drug names, the injections, be it everything with costs, they are up to date. So their clarification, their doubts has to be addressed by the doctor. So the consultation goes for hours. So technology does support us, but however in person when the patient is with the doctor, there's always a human touch. In fact, Apollo's tagline is touching lives. It's not just the tagline really, we have an initiative called Tender Loving Care. Right from doctors, nurses, housekeeping, everybody goes beyond their duty to provide that extra care for the patient. That definitely gives the personalized attention and care for the patients. Definitely that human touch, however robotic surgery and everything comes in, that human touch is definitely required for patients, especially when they are coming with a series of illness. So I would say doctors, plus a human touch will definitely make a difference. Sanjeev, how do you manage it in your business? I think, if you look at, this all depends on just like what freedoms are, it depends on the kind of diseases also, but the majority of the cases, if you look at it, people are suffering from one or the other lifestyle diseases, whether it's diabetes or the metabolic disorders. I think in this kind of cases also, doctors have to spend a lot of time explaining all these kinds of basic things, primarily because the patient knows, that's a major thing right now, the patient knows. Now here, I think, I just want to refer the report which has come out from Deloitte in 2019, which talks about the future of healthcare. What they are communicating is very clearly is that new roles has to emerge. I think there is a space for a new role which can be a certified health coach or a wellness coach or a lifestyle coach, whatever it is, because that could be the question for, if it's a critical illness, as of course doctors has to directly handle, but at the same time, when it is management of lifestyle diseases, once it is identified, once a protocol is being created around it, and then onwards the kind of follow-ups and those kind of things, there need to be a new role has to come up, which is, if you look at the Western countries, it has come up very strongly. The health coaches are really doing a lot of job, lot of work, especially they are reducing the load for the doctors. And I think in this country also, it is coming up right now. We have also done the same thing because when we are actually giving this genomic and metabolic report, and which gives a lot of information about their future diseases, that a lot of people can, they become anxious to know what should I do and they wanted to talk to a doctor and all those things. So we have come out with a program in association with Indian association for functional medicine, where we are actually giving certification for lifestyle coaching, where we have done about 150 people till now in the last one year, we have certified lifestyle coaches, they do this hand-holding for a period of 12 weeks. So we just really helped a lot for the customers and also we have seen that the level of satisfaction the clients get is very high. So I think new roles has to emerge because the patient knows. So Ashish, I want to move to you with the next question. Sure. Yeah. No, you are someone who's moved from a high tech space to a traditional healthcare organization. So I'm sure you want to be doing things differently in the traditional space. Now, when we look at the mobile apps, our concepts of marketing towards customer acquisition start changing, right? Now, what are some of the marketing strategies in your experience that you have seen that are so unique and atypical to a traditional healthcare industry and what is it that you think you will be doing at a place which has been into traditional form of healthcare? So rather than saying that how this has helped at the tech point of view first, I'll cover that part from a digital healthcare space point of view. See, the user acquisition has, of course, in last couple of years for digital healthcare has moved from just content only to pricing and discounting. That is how the consumer psyche has behaved. Now that when I get the habit of utilizing a product or a benefit or a service, we all hunt for discounts or the category itself start developing discounted communications. So whereas when I started with digital healthcare, it was more about product service content and within three years, it reached to discount services and the whole communication and user acquisition game changed. Now in traditional workspaces or traditional healthcare brands, I'll say that it is still at a very granular and a physical level and still your product service is the key to get the user on board. Now, how do you add the digital space of it is the main movement that what traditional workspaces require but a brand like NH, I think was already at the cusp of this, you know, this beautiful meeting of solving for digital world. And I would say that the physical meeting the digital in terms of right product and service and just taking from your last question, it has been historically for every healthcare brand as doctor as a center. Thus we had to develop so many FAQs, so many cheats in terms of consumer to understand but the change that is required right now is to build for the consumer first. So that is one too many solve doctors or I'll say historically are general physicians. Why we used to have a better connect with them because they used to talk in our language, not telling us Tavi, not telling us angioplasty, not telling us something else, they used to solve for us, correct? So that is what the change is required even at a digital level. Why? Because your product and services top notch. It's just that consumer needs to understand the solution better, you have to talk in their way. So that becomes your strategy. Got it, got it. Thank you, Ashish. Anuja, my next question is to you and we'll keep it brief because we'll be running against time. When it comes to vaccines, creating awareness becomes extremely critical. It is probably the most efficient way towards prevention of disease vaccination, right? With this new age marketing communication, do you think it is becoming easier today to educate people than it was earlier with mobile being accessible to everyone? And what are some of the ways that you are engaging with people which is different from before? So I think two great questions in one. It is definitely becoming easier and I think the biggest reason besides internet being available is COVID. With COVID coming in, the whole awareness around vaccination has gone up significantly. Earlier the assumption was that vaccination or the belief was that vaccination is only for my child, maybe a child who's around two years or younger and my doctor will guide me on vaccination. Today, the whole explosion around adult immunization is far higher. You'll be surprised to know India has an adult immunization rate of less than 2% for a disease like influenza which is actually quite commonplace and the vaccine is fairly available for decades. Having said that, I think it is far more awareness around vaccination today that has been driven by COVID in conjunction to the technology that has led to a far more openness around it. In terms of what we do as vaccines, how do we look at marketing differently? I think we have identified a two-pronged approach. We look at consumer at the center and see who are his influencers. He primarily has two influencers. One is the doctor himself and second, since we deal largely in pediatric vaccination, the second influencer is this community of mothers. So there are thriving community of mother influencers and digital opinion leaders. So we work with the two of them together, individually and also together and in conjunction, we have a lot of consumer focused activities and presence online, which allows us to reach a mass media. Secondly, also have the influencers talk to the consumers in the language that they understand, similar to the physician thing that Ashish mentioned. And this coming together allows for a lot of questions and awareness around vaccination. For example, a recent Facebook live that period, we had a lot of questions not just on influenza, but also on general immunity, waning around kids. Earlier, no mother of a child four-year-old would really consider that my child is not protected against certain diseases. But with COVID and such social awareness events that a lot of organizations run today, especially in preventable health, this is becoming our new mainstream strategy. And we've seen it work very well. Got it, got it. Sanjeevji, my question to you is that you are marketing a very innovative service and you call it epigenetic lifestyle modification. And like you mentioned, it is based on personal genomics. Now, how important is marketing communication in making this reach to the masses and have them understood in the manner that you want them to understand? I think out of all the people who are there in the panel, we'd rather say ours has got the maximum kind of dependence on the marketing communication because this is whatever we are doing or everything is innovative and new to people. Even the fact that people come to know when they, oh, I see my DNA can be decoded. What is this DNA all about? What is this gene? What is this chromosome? So everything is new. And a very complex science and a complex subject has to be simplified and put it across to the public. That is where brilliant communication strategy is required. I think whatever we could do till now in the last one and a half years is because we have been really focusing on that. We have been really focusing on breaking down complex information into simple, understandable formats with the help of a lot of some of our media friends also. So that has been our continuous exercise till we are working on it, I think for us marketing communications is the key to reach out to the people and educate them. Got it. So my last question and closing question because we've already run over time. I want each one of you to give me that one healthcare marketing trend that we cannot ignore in the next 12 months. So starting with Pritam. I would say communicating treatment, diagnosis and the technology which we have through meme campaigns. So which is something hospitals have not touched. I did do a couple of meme campaigns, which is again I'm sure Ashish is going to have a challenge in the traditional way of healthcare thinking but it did work. So something where memes can be used to create awareness on diagnosis, treatment, awareness and the possible positive outcomes in a treatment. So I would say memes is one, something which I will take it forward. Sanjeev Ji, one trend for this year. I would rather say it's connected to data and when it comes to data, there are two things which you are going to see as a major trend which will be happening this year onwards. One is going to be the AI on one side and blockchain technology on the other side. So that's going to be major drivers. Awesome, Ashish. Pritam, you took away what I wanted to say. But yes, overall, of course, I was thinking from a trend point of view, we have always seen how entertainment sports we started with loving these kinds of genres because we knew a lot BTS behind the scenes. I think from a, if I have to think right now, I think it can be one of the bigger, bigger engagement tool from a marketing point of view where your content is for BTS telling people what actually happens behind the room for them to have a greater acceptance or trust for the brand. So that could be one of the trends. Anuja. So to me, I think the biggest game changer for us is going to be personalization, both for doctors and for consumers. Today, the balance is shifting towards consumers. Consumers is wanting to know what is relevant for him or her from the whole clutter that exists. So to me, I think personalization and that is the hardest thing we have to bring in data together, like Sanjeev Z said, but that is really to me a big opportunity. Awesome. I mean, you know, my key takeaways from the last set of answers that you gave is that, you know, if you have to look at what we need to do and really need to do well, is to look at data, personalize our communication, engage with people and focus on local languages so that we are able to communicate better and be understood better, right? Thank you so much, each one of you for taking our time to be on this panel. I think this is a very, very beautiful topic and I could go on and keep this panel on for the next one hour, but I'm getting calls to now be quiet, right? So thank you so much, everyone. It was lovely talking to you. Absolutely. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you so much to all our panelists. Thank you for your valuable time today. Thank you once again. So ladies and gentlemen, with this, it is time for us to now move ahead to our next panel which is coming up and I hope you all are having a great time viewing this amazing conference. Well, remember, you have to keep hashtagging E4M XCC as one word and with this, it is time for us to now move on to our next panel. Well, ladies and gentlemen, it is time for yet another engaging panel discussion which we'll talk about, health as a sellable asset for marketers and brands where we learn the use of empathy, emotional approach, strategies to market health as well as wellness to the masses, also which means to sell your product service to the consumer driven Indian market. With this, may I please now invite on the screen, Abhishek Gupta, Chief Marketing Officer, Edelweiss Tokyo Life Insurance, Venkat Eppena, Vice President, Marketing Fasten Up, Samta Dutta, General Manager of Marketing, Sood Healthcare, Samyukta Ayur, Vice President and Head of Marketing, Kaya Limited, and the session chair being Rashmi Thosar, the Founder, CEO of Brandcare. Well, with this, I'd like to humbly welcome all our esteemed panelists on the screen. Thank you so much for your valuable time with this. The screen is all yours. Rashmi, it is over to you to take it forth with your exciting panel. And it's great to see so much energy and exuberance on the screen. We're looking forward to your panel now. Over to you. Thank you so, thank you so much, Bhavna. Thanks a lot. Pleasure. Thank you. Yep. Nice to see everybody. Hi, can you hear me? Yes. Yes, we can, we can. Yes, yes. Hi, Samyukta. Good to see you all so long. How have you been? Very good. Hi, how are you doing? I'm so excited to see your name. Yes. Good afternoon to everybody. This is Rashmi Tosa. I'm your session source. Welcome to this wonderful session of health as a sellable asset for marketers and brands. This COVID period will go down in history as a period of shift. Significant among these shifts was the healthcare shift. All the H IQ shocks were left. Immunity, ventilators, VVKs, oximeters became like this. And I'm sure you've all been a part of it. The health frenzy was so unimaginable and we've been through it all and we've survived and come on to the other side. Somewhat unimaginable, I would say. While this unimaginable frenzy was there, we saw in the beginning of 2020, the first four months was so hectic. Everybody was jumping into onto this brand market. There were about 650 million health apps which were downloaded globally. The dietary supplements and nutrition market just kind of exploded. Insurance, devices, people were just looking up for everything which they could find to keep themselves safe and to find themselves in good health. And whenever there are vacuum marketers aboard vacuums and then they tend to flood in. So overall, while this is a blue ocean, there is also thriving in this has never has not really been very easy. To all from our panelists, how they have done one at all. Let me introduce Abhishek Gupta, Chief Marketing Officer at Revised Tokyo Life. So Abhishek, has he joined in? Abhishek? Yes, I'm here. I am portable and visible. Yes, yes, very much so. Hi there. Glad to be here. And we have been in our vice president marketing office. Are you able to hear me? Hello, can you hear me? Yes, yes, I can hear you. Yeah, I can hear you, Venkat. Yes, yes, nice to see you. Nice, yes, very good to meet you. And Samptha, the general manager of marketing, sood health care. Hi Samptha. Samptha, I think you're on mute. Samptha, I think by the time she logs and then let me just say hi to my friend. Samyukta, Samyukta Ayer, Vice President and head of marketing, Ayer Limitik. Hi, Rashu. Hi, Samyukta. Probably to be here today. Yes, Samptha, are you back? I'm not able to hear. So by the time she logs and then let me just give me one second. One second, just change to a better Wi-Fi. Are you able to hear me? Yeah, yeah, all right. Okay, Abhishek, let me start with you. Abhishek? No. Yeah, can you start? So yeah, I actually was thinking that probably there's a question coming, so. Yes, yes, I was going to talk to you. I couldn't hear you, I'm sorry. I was just saying that these are times of extreme variability and during these times, trust takes a downturn. How do you think pandemic has impacted communication? You're very right, Rashmi, during this time, especially when everybody's feeling so vulnerable, the trust actually takes a little backseat, not in terms of backseat, in terms of its importance, but backseat in terms of the trust levels going down. So during this time, according to me, the most critical from a communication perspective or an advertising perspective or from a brand perspective is empathy. Yeah. You know, this is the time to probably tone down. This is a time to tone down all the tall claims that probably you've been making earlier or being a little over the top. It is a time where you have to realize that people are going through a major problem and they are looking for a solution to that problem. If you think that you have a product which offers a solution to this problem that people are facing, you need to talk about it, but you need to talk about it in extremely empathetic ways. That is one part, especially for intellectual life insurance industry, which is heavily, heavily dependent on third party distributors or what we normally call as insurance agents. You have to actually, while one part of your TG is the consumers who will end up buying life insurance, as a brand marketer, as a communications professional, you also have to realize that there's another set of TG are these people who are actually going out there and trying to convince customers to buy your products. It's time to show empathy towards them as well. It's time to ensure that they are well equipped to handle the change which is happening. So don't just look at only your end consumers, look at intermediaries also. And for industries like us, where entertainment is a huge role, I think pick a backseat and go and understand their problems as well. Sure, I think that's very important. What do you think? I mean, it's balancing you very rightly said, balancing sales and communications is a very important thing. The pressure is to sell to your clients while also developing long-term relations with them. And for health insurance professionals, it's a kind of a tightrope walk where consumers are expecting agents to be their trusted advisor to tell them about health plans. But you're not just there to educate your clients. You have sales goals to meet and stay in business. How do you maintain this balance of empathy? It's quite difficult. On one side, you have to be looking at how you're going to make the business. And on the other side, you have to also be their advisor, find that very critical element of trust. So while Rashmi, this question is not only valid during a pandemic or any crisis, it is always there. How do you balance? What kind of initiatives or communication do you balance? And probably I'm going to say something which is going to be hugely unpopular or probably goes against the conventional marketing wisdom during times of crisis. During times of crisis, you need to first speak to the people who are close to you, which are your intermediaries. So my priority, my balance would go tilt in favor of them during this crisis because these are the people. Please understand the mindset of an insurance professional. This guy has been selling or this guy is only I'm using as a metaphor. It is not gender specific. This person has been selling life insurance for ages and ages and ages by meeting face to face. And that's the only way this person knows how to sell insurance. If there is no meeting, this person cannot sell because insurance takes time to convince customers and therefore you need to meet customers. Suddenly in the pandemic, that thing is a bomb. You can't meet the customers. However, you still have a house to run. You still are answerable to the commitments to the business commitments of the organization. So at that point of time, this is how you make a shift. This is how you start selling in a mix of video-based plus text-based plus WhatsApp-based plus, if possible, go and meet the customer under safe conditions. But this is how you do it. And it is very important for me to handhold this person. So yes, at this point of time, what we did, we actually focused in terms of the balance more towards the distributor than less towards the consumers. When I say less towards the consumer entertainment that we are completely neglecting the consumers but in terms of the effort. However, yes, consumers also need to be told. And here also, my focus was more on my existing customers telling them that I am there. In case something happens, you have placed trust in us when you bought a product from us. And what we had given you at that time was just a promise. I had not given anything else. It was a piece of paper and a promise. So I am here to honor that promise today. Should you need help? So my focus was first on my existing customers. And at that point of time, you also realize that since consumers are feeling vulnerable, whenever the vulnerability increases, the demand for our product increases. That is very clear. When you start realizing, oh shit, I can't do anything, sorry. Something can go wrong with me. That's when you start looking at products which hedge the risk. And therefore insurance demand goes up. So yes, it's a time that we also need to ensure that consumers who are looking for insurance are getting the best product according to their need. But if I have to ask in terms of the order, first is my intermediaries, then is my existing customers, then is my prospective customers in terms of crisis. I think that's a very, very valid point you have made, Abhishek, that especially when you're selling at the point of vulnerability, it's very important to say that I'm there for you. And that I think is a takeaway from here. Just being able to say that I'm there for you. Thank you, screen. Yes. Are you able to hear me? Somehow my connection today is not too late, please let me know. All right, okay. Thank you Abhishek, we'll come back to you. Venkat, if I may ask you, tell us a little bit more about the philosophy of fast and up. Okay, so I think when it comes to fast and up, it is a five years old brand in Indian market. So we are basically into active and sports nutrition. So I would say I think today, if you take three out of four sports candidates, I think they use fast and up products. Either you take Indian cricket team, you take 90% of the runners use this product. So I think we have built a lot of trust around these products. I think we brought in new technology into the market, where I think fast and up is the first brand to bring in FOS and technology into India. All the products, like let's say, for example, if you take many brands are in liquid form, powder form, but we are the one who brought in FOS and we trusted in it. We brought into Indian market. And today, as I mentioned, I think out of every four sports persons, I think two to three sports persons are using our products. So I think the major value we created is, I think starting from manufacturing factories, the way products labeled, the way products delivered, everywhere we tried to maintain authenticity. We tried to evolve as the market started building. Also, we made sure that more than pushing product into the market, we tried to pull audience by having very strong communication, which gives more information around aspects like, for example, FOS Cent is new to India five years back. Today, being a number one brand in FOS Cent, I can say that within the mix of products, like let's say in sports nutrition or nutraceuticals, I think we have three different formats. I think fastest growing format is FOS Cent. So I think we were able to build that line being very strong on authenticity side, as well as, I can say, customer orientation service, everything, yeah. So our value is being very authentic and having very high quality production in place. And as we are the first one to bring in FOS Cent, I think we are the one, even today, we are the number one in manufacturing as well as on sales trend on FOS Cent side. So our core value is highest quality and customer service. Yeah, because every day there are about, within India itself, there are about 27 to 30 new brands of health and nutrition supplements being launched. And they are in several different categories. How important is it that you stay very true to your niche? How important is that? Yeah, so let me start with our own example. Today, I think when we started, our first cohort was runners in India. So we want to activate that category and we want to fuel all those runs happening across India. I think even today, 90% of the runners use our product to fuel their run. So I think being any technology that we are building or any new product that we are launching or even the service that we are bringing in, I think if you define your own niche, your own cohort very clearly, I think servicing that cohort and niche at top notch level is very important. I know that every brand, since the opportunities ample around, I think getting into various categories, entering into new markets, entering into new TGE, I think especially in last four, five years, I think the health and wellness industry became a blue ocean. So I think the opportunity is ample. So I think even though I think you have a different business-flying plan or you want to enter into a new market or you want to launch a new product, I think the core aspect of the core niche that you're targeting. Our core niche is sports. So I think either market research or let's say building products, launching new products, everything should, the core focus should be around your niche. So even today, we stand, if we take a call, I think our inclination is always towards sports. So any nutritional product that we launch into the market, I think the first priority goes to sports sites. So that's one important factor. As I mentioned again, I think as Abhishek was saying, I think the core value that you create for your brand, that authenticity that you create for your brand, use that value. For example, on internet side, if you promise something and next, you don't deliver that, for sure, I think that customer goes to another brand. So I think authenticity is the utmost important thing for any brand to have your own niche where your own niche will build your revenues. I think in fact, I think the chasing new customer versus focusing on your own niche and he's going to be building better revenues, qualified revenues, which will sustain. Thank you. Thank you for that, Venkat. I also had a small question here. Do you think you've been using random basis, Varun and the Shilpa Shetty, how much do you think they play a role in being very focused to your own niche? Do they add a great value? Do they bring with them followers? Do they really raise your perception within this niche? How important are they and what value do they bring in? Yeah, so I think the way even, I think we can call it as, we can call them celebrities or influencers or whatever. I think today, I think the way influencer, I think the word used, I think that is shaping up really in a different line where previously it's more of selling products through influencers. I think today influencer or celebrity is used to create a tone for your brand. Like let's say if you take Varun Dhawan or Shilpa Shetty, they are more into fitness, more into, I think they are more towards active lifestyle. So I think we picked those two celebrities to create a certain tone for our brand. Again, for example, they are popular in certain states. So we want to make sure that our product is toned or the product is, the image of the product, image of our brand is created in a way. So that's the reason we picked those two celebrities. And that helped us a lot. In the last two years, I think either you take it as a brand visibility, brand existence or brand growth. I think all three friends, I think those two celebrities helped us a lot. In fact, since they are into fitness and active lifestyle and many followers follow them for those two reasons because they are active and they are fit. So I think they were able to add that value to our brand for sure. Yeah, I read somewhere you've been calling them good vibes officer. I think that's a very interesting term which is, I think a little bit more than a celebrity or just an influencer. They just create that good vibes. It's a very nice term. And yeah, it's, I think it's a start. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. And Samta, are you there? I'm not able to hear her. Can you hear me? Yes, now I can. And I can see you also. I think I missed your introduction. Samta Dutta, G.M.A. K.T. Suthedhya. Thank you, Samta. This is Rashmi K.Suthedhya. Would you like to give us a little introduction about what is the philosophy of Suthedhya healthcare? And then we will get on to discussing how exactly are you trying to get closer to its consumers? A small bit of an introduction first to Suthedhya healthcare, maybe. So I think like most of the panelists here, or some of the panelists here, we are a young brand. We're a young Indian brand, exorbitant brands. We are into feminine hygiene, creating solutions for young Indian women, homegrown solutions. So we are into sanitary, menstruation cups, to diapers, to adult diapers. That's the category we operate in. We fundamentally believe that Indian women and Indian intimate hygiene has been ignored and dominated by global players for the longest time. And while we have a lot of ample solutions in the market, the category has been dominated by the culture of silence. So we are here to actually offer our products and also in somewhat fashion to push them on the level of the culture of silence. Yeah, nice. Which is very valid. And I wanted to discuss that with you that this is typically an area which has been dominated so much by Procter & Gamble, Johnson & Johnson and multinational players have been at it and they've done it for so very long. How does a local brand, your flagship brand like Pari, how does it get close to consumers? You know, interestingly enough, Rashmi, we launched, we are a GT presence launched in late 2018, early 2019 and bang after that, you know, the pandemic really hit us. And I like Vishay was saying, you know, how he has to sort of prioritize all his, you know, consumer and customer base. We had a tougher thing. We were here trying to introduce ourselves and any which ways to a category where not many people are willing to hear us. So, you know, the one thing is that we're a young brand and the consumer does not talk about this product to the retailer. So that becomes a very big challenge, you know, when a girl goes to buy a sanitary pad, there is a minimum amount of conversation that happens between her and the seller. So she's like, Whisper, Reina, it's safe, whatever her brand is, Reina, you know, with that said, a new brand entering a mass as a mass-teach player in a market is a huge, huge challenge that we took upon ourselves. And, you know, that's something that we are building and fighting each day on. Is it difficult? It is supremely challenging, I would say. And that's what makes it super fun. In the past couple of years, we have in terms of GT, you know, increased our distribution, you know, started with India 2 and now sort of going to India 1 and providing solutions. That is what we are doing in terms of branding and in terms of being present. And in terms of actually talking to the consumer, there are so many things that we are doing in today's consumer at so many level. One is, of course, the advertising and as, you know, Venkat was saying, having a good vibe ambassador, social influencer, all of that is a very, very norm thing. But I think also today's consumer is very, comes across as very conscientious and we want to tap into that ideology of theirs as we speak to them. So our product line, our product philosophy, as well as how we communicate and go back to them, is all about that. We have, you know, we have somebody like Janvi Kapoor right in the front of the pack, you know, communicating as well as we have Dr. Kiran baby and, you know, Indian police officer endorsing the brand on World Menstruation Day. So there are, you know, we like to talk, you know, not in a very insular way, but very inclusive way for the brand. But yes, like you said, it is a huge challenge because, you know, to match up the equity and budgets of a proctor or a Johnson is for a young brand of stuff. But I think today's time with the new marketplace, I think it's a very, very, it's a very, very interesting challenge to have. Definitely so, definitely. And I'm sure I think you have manufacturing facilities, I'm sure, right from the product itself, you've been putting the consumer-based thinking into making of the product as well. Does anything happen there from the time that you're conceptualizing the product? Has anything happened, which is very local, which is very India centric and which might give you an edge over the multinational? That's the basic product itself. You have products across, I think, women's health and also I think kids' health and adult health. So in each of these segments, does the thinking of going local start from the time that the product is being conceptualized, that the product is being thought? Thank you, Rishan. That's a very, very important and valid question as we own up in the category. One of the things that we, on an ongoing basis, study about the category, especially the dominated leaders in the market, is that while their supply chain cannot be matched, while their marketing budgets cannot be matched, I think in terms of product, definitely, I think the innovation funnel has been very, very limited, if I may say so. The women's health and hygiene, intimate hygiene has been so ignored because firstly, it's not talked about. So the ignorance comes from it's not being in the center stage in the first go, right? So we're using products and the competition is using products which are so bad for your intimate hygiene because like every other area of your body, the value of menstruating, you need everything that you do need to be readable. And it has to ensure that you are, yes, you are covered, you are your leakage fee and all of that, but at the same time, you need to be readable, right? You need to be able, you need to be having your, you need to be open, right, in that sense. So in those terms, we realized that, and that came from empathy as a product philosophy that we have to come up with products that actually can really tally to that. One of our premium product offering, which is Prima, is a breathable bag, that ensures that, you know, during even your heavy flow days, even as a heavy, we are a leakage champion, even on those days, you are breathable down there and you are not suffocated with a plastic sheet that is definitely leakage proof, but not good for your intimate health. So those are the points, you know, on a regular basis that we keep in mind, especially because today's women is going out there doing so much, I'm doing much more on my period than my mother was, right? I'm going out and going in, I'm wearing a pant, I'm changing in, I'm going, so all of those, you know, for the modern Indian women, need to be kept in mind as you create offerings. And as we go forward, that has been a very, very strong leg of our thinking and our philosophy. Thank you. Thank you, Smuta. That was really very interesting to understand how it's possible just with the local thinking to take multi-nationals head on by getting very close to the consumers, building in the consumer thinking, right from the product stage, just at the marketing stage. Very interesting. Thank you for that. Thank you. Some of the highs, I have a question for you. And I'm sure Kaya is a case study and everybody would like to know what's been done, right? From the services model, I think a lot of introduction of products have also happened now. This is a brand which is being designed and driven by dermatologists. How do you maintain this balance of, you know, science and emotion? It's a very deep question actually, Rashmi. Thanks for that. I'm sure it got all of us thinking. I think this is very famous quote by Dignad Han and basically it's a very simple philosophy but it really runs very deep. Speaks about saying that keeping your body healthy is an expression of, you know, gratitude to the whole cosmos. And I think a lot of it is also, you know, very, again, I think it's very karmic because it's very linked to what Smuta was also talking about literally like, you know, 10 seconds ago because it's a very simple scientific truth really, right? Like beauty in most cases is a reflection of good health, right? Again, I think that's very linked to what Venkat was also talking about because he spoke a lot about authenticity and, you know, getting things right from the consumer perspective. I'll give you a simple example. When your hair is healthy, your hair looks beautiful. When your skin is healthy, your skin looks beautiful, right? So what happens is that largely, beauty becomes a by-product of good health. I think you started off your conversation, you know, you spoke about the pandemic, you spoke about, I think Abhishek spoke a lot about people's realization and I think for every month, it's hit home very hard for each one of us but I think health suddenly became a prerogative in everybody's life even if it wasn't before. I think that became very important, you spoke about the number of launches that happened in India. You know, 25, 30 is a huge number of launches that are happening every day. And it's actually an age old secret, right? Like if I'm healthy, I will look beautiful. So skin health suddenly became something to achieve. Hair health became something to, you know, actually focus on. So when you look at the very clear dermatology kind of an approach, you know, bringing it back to Kaya, we focus on health from with the bright, we cure, we treat, we better, because they're all MD, highly MD qualified doctors. They're looking at your skin, they're looking at your hair, they're looking at body health. And the minute, for example, you have any kind of say acne or you have say heffa or dandruff, it could be any issue with your skin or hair. The minute they're going deep within doing the right kind of treatments customized to what that person needs. In the absence of say acne scars, your skin starts glowing because everything is suddenly clear. In the absence of hair falls and you have a head full of hair, it's really shining from within. Automatically you end up looking beautiful. And because science has been used, you know, from within to kind of, you know, treat everything from the outside and it looks beautiful. The emotion that manifests because of this is an emotion of happiness. There's an emotion of freedom. There's an emotion of, I think Samta spoke about independence, just spoke about inclusivity because it's very inclusive, right? It's about every person's journey, even with health, is so different from the other person's journey of health. And that's really where we are. It's literally like saying, you look good, you feel good. And automatically there's this entire sort of happiness that's kind of caught around. And the pandemic has taught us a very health-first approach. Again, bringing it back, I think lungs is something I don't know if, I don't think anyone of us was focusing so much on the importance of, you know, building lung capacity, working out. All of that started happening. Again, the by-product of that is that people automatically started looking good. It's a different story that from a health-benefit perspective, your body could then combat any illness that hit your way. But the minute you started looking good, so it's really very rational, right? And I think people, it's a very simple insight. I think as marketers and advertisers across the world, they're always looking for that simple human truth. And I think that's where Kaya has also kind of always been in this space because we are a 19-year-old brand who've been in India for a very long time. And it's a very simple approach. If I am healthy, I end up looking good by default. And I end up looking good, I end up feeling good, I end up feeling good, so I'm happy. So it's a very simple mantra. To answer your question, the science is the how-to. It helps you achieve that. Duty becomes the outcome. And I think emotion is just a manifestation, a very FYI manifestation, if I were to call it that. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you very much for that. I think we are just about warming up and we can just go on forever with this discussion. Maybe we should take it offline sometime when we meet again. Thank you so much, everybody. And it was really my pleasure posting this. Thanks. Thank you all. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you so much. Well, with this, ladies and gentlemen, thank you Abhishek. Thank you, Venkat. Thank you, Samta. Thank you, Samta. Thank you, Rashmi. So, ladies and gentlemen, with this, it is time for us to now break in for a coffee break. Let's reach and await ourselves with a cup of coffee or tea to your choice. And let's resume back at 3.50 p.m. Indian Standard Time. Thank you once again. Thank you. Bye. Ladies and gentlemen, at 3.50 p.m. Indian Standard Time, we're going to be having a great panel discussion coming up, which is going to be the final discussion. And post that, of course, we'd request you to join us for the awards, which will be happening shortly. So, thank you all. This is me, Bhavna Bhatia, and request the team to now await so that we can have, in the next 20 minutes, our panel discussion starting. Thank you once again. Technical team, could we have a player? Yeah, thank you. Hello, speakers, welcome. In the backstage, we're still live. Ruhal, of course, is going to be the session chair. Ruhal, how are you doing today? Hi, hi, hi, Bhavna, how are you? I'm great, Ruhal. Dr. Gopal, would you like to do your audio check? Hello, good afternoon. Good afternoon. Hi, Dr. Gopal. I believe Ms. Piali has already done her audio check. I haven't actually, no. Okay, perfect. It's good afternoon. Good afternoon. Hi. Good afternoon, Dr. Gopal. How are we? All good, all sorted. Very exciting panel here. Thank you, sir. Thank you very much. So, I believe, just allow us some time. Let's just put our video and audio off. We are live right now. So, let's just put the audio and video off. Thank you. Am I audible, ma'am? Yes, Dr. Gopal, you are. So, well, a very good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. Rather, it's taking towards evening time. It is time for us to now get to our final panel discussion. Well, what an engaging conference this has turned out to be. And it is now time for a rather very engaging panel discussion, which we'll be talking about implementing a preventive approach to combat mental health concerns workplace and beyond. While measuring progress on workplace mental health, its promotion and measures, what can the corporates do to create a safe environment for people with mental illness and how can we make India more inclusive for people with mental illness? Well, ladies and gentlemen, for this exciting topic and hearing, it is time for us to now call upon the screen, our esteemed panelist. First up, Dr. K. Madan Gopal, Senior Consultant Health, Nithya Ayur. Dr. Raghish Gupta, Director, Government Institute of Medical Sciences, UP. Piyani Das Gupta, Senior Vice President, Marketing, Columbia Pacific Communities. And the session shared is Ruhel Amin, Senior Editor, BW Business World, Executive Editor, BW Applauses. Well, with this, I'd like to heartily welcome all our esteemed panelists. Thank you so much for your valuable time. With this, Ruhel, the screen is all yours. Thank you, Abhavna, I need for this introduction. Am I audible to all my panelists? Yes. All right, okay. So I think we don't need to emphasize more on the importance of mental health given the last two and a half years, a lot of focus has been on it. And rightly so, I think it concerns all of us. And it's the right time that we put it at the center stage and start talking about how we are addressing it, what needs to be done, how can we make it, even more effective. So we have a great panel as introduced by Bhavna. I want to start with you, Piyali. My first question to you, Piyali, is, in your view, how are organizations looking at preventive mental health care? Has there been a shift in the way they look at it? Thank you so much, Ruhel, for the question and a very good evening to everybody that's joined in as well as to my fellow panelists. I'm very happy to be here. I must mention that I'm just recovering from COVID and I do have some post-COVID complications. So I'm coughing excessively. So do excuse me if I'm coughing too much, but I'll try to do my best. I'm going to introduce myself. Obviously my professional designation is that I'm Senior Vice President Marketing at Columbia Pacific Communities. That's what I do for a living. But in the context of this particular discussion, I'm going to introduce myself as somebody with lived experience. So I am people with lived experience of mental illness. I was diagnosed with clinical depression and generalized anxiety disorder when I was only 13 years old. And so it's been 24, 25 years of living with this illness and trying to manage it as well as obviously working. And from time to time, I am requested to be part of panels because I also do a lot of advocacy work on mental health and I have my own podcast as well and certain publications ask me to write about this particular topic. And I've always said that we haven't even scratched the surface as far as doing something on mental health is concerned. We are very, very far behind. And I've always said that what I find unfortunate is the fact that it took a pandemic for us to take mental health seriously. When it is such an integral part of your overall health and wellness, in fact, it is health, which is why it is called mental health. I do not understand why we've sort of for years and decades together, not paid attention to it, not taking it seriously. And in fact, done a tremendous amount of disservice by stigmatizing against people that have mental health issues. As far as organizations are concerned, and I have been a part of some very large organizations as well, I have to say that not much is being done. Yes, in the last two years, awareness levels have gone up. There is no denying it. Yes, I think today HR functions are taking it a lot more seriously. There are conversations happening with the leadership. They would probably do a bunch of surveys like a pulse survey or a Kerasack survey to figure out how their employees are doing. They would probably have mental health counselors on board to offer free support for somebody that's going through something. They would probably certain organizations during the pandemic announced a four-day work week only to go back to a five-day work week. So we've seen a lot of these kinds of things. We've seen organizations say that there is going to be yoga and meditation available in the premises, et cetera. So yes, we have seen a lot of these initiatives, but are they enough or are they being done from the point of view of really, really looking at mental health seriously? Or are they being done from the point of view of, hey, this is something that is going to increase my productivity and is going to help me get better ROI? I think that is the conversation that we need to have. And I think I'm glad that we have doctors today as part of the panel because I think their point of view on this as well as the point of view of people with lived experience is very, very important because corporates often do things whether we like to admit it or not because there is a certain agenda attached to it. I mean, you could do a whole bunch of HR-related mental health activities, but that could be ultimately because you want to, let's say, look at certain business objectives like better attrition rates or higher productivity or, you know... Yeah, at times just a tick mark, but I have a separate question for that. I have a separate question for that. I'll come to it and let me go to Dr. Gupta at this stage. Absolutely, yeah. Which has initial remarks on implementing a preventive approach when we talk about it. How far have we come in this conversation, according to you? Thank you, sir. Good evening, everyone, all my panelists and me for you for inviting me for this panel. See, this is a very important topic in post-pandemic that mental health is part and partial of our health and well-being. It is an integral part of the WHO definition that mental health, it's a physical, mental, social and spiritual well-being. I think now we are taking post-COVID complete definition in mind whenever we are concerned with mental health. So this is, I think, very, very important thing. And as a whole, we are in the government organization but for corporate, private, everyone now have to look at the mental health of their HR, their employees. This is not only for their own safety, own security but as well as also for the productivity and whatever outcome you want to expect from your employees, probably mental health is part and partial. Mental health is, it's not only that they look happy or a lot of factors are there, a lot of these factors are there which has leading probably post-COVID which is much, much more important. So this actually involves their own personal problems. There are problems because of COVID, there are nuclear families, they have to take care of their families as well as their workplace. And if they do not look after equally the workplace, probably they are discriminated, a lot of stigma and their performance is actually deteriorating. So probably this is a very important part on the aspect of all stakeholders and government as well as right to take care of this mental health in total. Dr. Gopal, we are very fortunate to have you with us. You are more qualified when it comes to implementing a preventive approach because it might need a regulatory push at times to ensure that it happens. But your initial talks when we talk about preventive approach to combat mental health concerns, how has it evolved over the years according to you? Sorry, some mute. Thank you, Rohit. And thank you for this opportunity to share my thoughts and views. No doubt it's a very big issue. And I will just take the things forward where Dr. Gopal has left. It took around 40, 45 years to arrive at a definition of health. At least with the state of physical, social and mental health in not merely an absence of disease. And for implementing that, things, some few parameters who would agree that is health for all by 2000. In that at that time, it was only focused on the health. And that approach was designed that is comprehensive with the primary and care approach. Then the goals posed were shifted from this health for the linear development of statistics. That's the last one. Now we have moved from the health from the disease. It was a way back before the formation of WHO for disease. From there, we come to the health with the indicator we tried to measure. From there, we are now, the paradigm is now shifting towards the wellness part. That means if you are well, then you can always enjoy the physical, mental and social well being. So we are focusing more on the well being. Apart from that, if you talk about the regulatory things, we have the Indian Lunatic Act to 1912, where it was a involuntary admission. I mean, the doctors were responsible for the treatment. And it is the discussion of the doctors for providing treatment to the patients. Then in 1982, we are having a national mental health program. We started the national health program when in India was signatory to the Armata declaration. And we thought that at that time, we should be doing something more mental. There also, we have started this mental health program. It was more of a centers towards awareness as well as preventing and providing treatment to the disease. Then we had this national mental health act in 1987, where we have tried to see that from the involuntariness, it has become a voluntary. That means the patient family and the patient of the person can take care of this. But the rights and other issues were not there, right of a mental person and the issues were not there. And since the 2019, 1996, we are implementing the district mental health program, where it is focused on more or less providing treatment through the district health network, providing the psychiatric services at the district hospital. We are having around 700 plus districts in the country. Each of the districts would be providing that services which are there. Then it was more or less focused on the preventive strategies for its training of the population as well as providing treatment environment to the patient at that level. Then in 2014, because this was all centered around the treatment aspect, there were no rights issues. We had a, then in 2014, we had that national mental health policy, where we talked about the rights of it. We have seen the act from the rights lens, right of the mental person in this. In 2017, we had the national mental health act, where we have talked about the criminalizing, because even though act was there, but there were other acts, the other CPR acts were there, which were taking precedence for this mental act. The mental person was not having any right for the property, he was not having the ground for degos and other things. If the person is not mentally sane, there were certain issues with that. So in that, all the things were addressed during this 2017 act. And with now, you see what change has come. Previously, for the ECT therapies, no consent was required. Now, a consent is required, and the NSHC has required for providing that. Here, we were from that level to this level. And in the district mental health program, by type C, that there would be many societies which have been formed at the Mohalla level, as well as the village level, which are trying to provide some preventive services to these people. So that's one thing. And in the course of discussion, we can discuss and discuss all the aspects of all this. No, absolutely, I think you have given an overview of how things have changed. And thank you really for that. Piyali, as an expert and someone who has lived, who has lived experience of what all it means that we are discussing. How can organizations measure progress on mental health at work? What are the bigger challenges? And what are the right ways to do that? Right, look, I mean, there are obviously different ways of measuring whether an organization has made progress on mental health or not. Like I mentioned earlier to you that there are several tools that there is a model called CARISAC, which somebody had sort of come up with at least about 20, 25 years ago, which a lot of companies do use. You could do a pulse, a check. There are questionnaires where you kind of talk about whether an organization is able to give you decision latitude, is able to fight you with the kind of work and not overwhelm you with work and also is able to give you the right kind of support. And on this, it is decided what kind of scores are given. But I think the point here is, like I mentioned earlier as well, what is the objective? What is the objective of doing this? Is the objective purely productivity-led, business-led? Because then I do not know if that is the right approach. On the other hand, if it is really about caring and genuinely about the mental health state of people and understanding that mental health is a very, very integral part of physical health and the two go hand in hand. And there is no physical health without mental health. Then I think we're talking about progress, right? Typically what is being done today is like you yourself rightly said, it's a lot of big marks, right? We have done this, we have done yoga, we have done counselor, we have done four-day work week and all of that, which is all fine. I mean, at least something is being done. But are you primarily and fundamentally encouraging open conversations in your workplace around mental health, giving people a safe and no judgment environment to talk about their struggles? Creating platforms actively where these conversations can take place and involving leadership who also show their vulnerability in order to come across somebody, in order to build a culture where vulnerability is not only accepted, but even celebrated. I think that to me is the right approach. I think that a lot of companies are probably not looking at the bigger picture. They're looking at mental health because today suddenly after two years of COVID, it's a huge talking point and you can't not talk about mental health and it's the cool thing to talk about or the in thing to talk about. I'm glad that people are finally talking about it, but are you taking care of the brass tacks and the fundamentals? And the fundamentals here is mental health is a topic that is steeped in stigma. It is steeped in stigma. People suffering from mental health issues have always been stigmatized against that work. They've always been seen differently. They've always been, let's say, denied certain kinds of responsibilities. They've always been kind of bracketed as let's say difficult or whatever it is, right? Are you actively doing something as leadership to actually dispel all of that? I think that is really the need of the art. It's not so much about saying that, oh, on my mental health index, I have a mental health index, I've moved from seven to nine, right? That's great. But what are you doing beyond that? I think that's really what we need to focus on. Thanks, Piyali, for sharing these insights. Dr. Gupta, I have a specific question for you. Mental health has gradually moved to, there's a difference of, like in the upper class and all this economically high classes, it's an issue that can be addressed. But in a state like UP, where it may be a taboo in certain places, how do you ensure such conversations are accepted, even people who entreat themselves for mental health? I think it's not still acceptable in the larger part of the India part, of course, understands the Bharat part is still coming to terms with this thing called mental health. I think there's a lot of taboo. Is it correct? Am I right? How do you address it? Thank you, sir. I think this is a very pertinent questions. And what you said, for middle and lower class, right? Still it isn't a taboo. For any employee person at a workplace, declaring himself not tremendously sound or describing or discussing something, probably I think it's a taboo. Just what Madam Piyali has said, you're rightly discriminated and they are actually not given the due response to what they are supposed to. So this is actually a role of leaders and then managers to ensure that mental health also should be taken care of at the lowest level. So what we have to have, we have to remove the stigma. It is not easy, it is difficult. We have to improve the communication at all levels, maybe horizontal, vertical, diagonal. That people should have good accessibility to what Madam has said. There should be an active creative platform where people can actually express, may not be by name, may not be anonymously. They can launch feedback. Feedback is another way you can get. And anywhere rather than people are coming, the higher ups can go to that particular level where they feel that people are not performing well or people, so rather than finding faults with them and then further discriminate, probably they can find out the fact what is wrong and probably they can find out a lot of feedback. We in our own government institute, we have do the open Darbar. Again, people may not come, but at least they know that higher up, the hierarchy is actually sensitive to their issues and probably in one platform or other platform, they normally come out and we try and actually approach them directly or indirectly. So accessibility is one. Taking feedback, good communication we can actually keep. And of course, anybody who needs to be helped, maybe pre sort of a consultation or pre-checkups, pre-treatment, all these things, if you made these things available, probably more people will come out, more people will put up their problems. And I think mental health of the organization can be actually improved. Absolutely, absolutely. Dr. Gopal, are there any regulations being, thought of to mitigate concerns related to mental health at the workplace? Do you think we need a strong regulatory push to implement this? Rohan, it is very easy to say about regulation. This is a journey which we have made from the lunatic act to the national mental health framework which is there. So you see the progress which we have made because the talking about mental issues, talking about regulation as a solution, it's very easy said then done. Because do we have the regulatory capacity? We do have a mental health program. We are in the different level of implementation. The program is still to mature. It's almost 15, 20 years and we have to be like a long way to go. The regulation is not going to be that much important because we do have a picture funded stat. Because you see the whatever problems were there in the 87 act, they had been rectified after 20, 30, 40 years and we have rectified that thing. It has now given rights. So that kind of thing, but only thing for utilizing this is to empower the person to sense how to use this, enabling provisions which are there in the existing act, existing regulation. Quite fair enough to at least safeguard the rights and interests of the mental health people. But having said this, there are larger more issues about the mental person. You see, it's not the person who repose that I'm not well and you see the way the things happen. In the government institution, you see people don't want to go back home because if the person is continuing, if they want to work until nine o'clock, 10 o'clock without any work, if the person is not able to complete his work in the stipulated time, as we mature, our attention span also comes down. We require some break from that environment. You see the mental problem is the last thread. It's not only the person who is coming and reporting, they have to find out ways of helping all these people. It's regulation is not going to help you. They are having enabling provision. I'm just repeating that thing, but it goes way beyond that. You talk about the issues. One of the important issues is if the person is doing overtime, is he mental? That's a question which you have to ask. As Gupta Ji has rightly pointed out, whether the administration or the other person they are coming and talking and getting everything like or not. If a person is in a position, if he asks a feedback in a policy or manner, what kind of feedback he will get? How many schools they are having counselors? It starts from that school level. How many of the people we counsel our children and other people? We say that, you take that kind of attitude we are having. So a lot of work is required. It's not the regulation which will bring the see kind of change, but we have to start work right from our ourselves. We start work from ourselves. How we treat the other person? Because the ambition has overtaken all the aspects and the value system is the ambition. As well as making how much money you are making. And that drives all the things. I start my day on time, I finish my day on time, but I am more productive than most of my colleagues. There's some time wonder that what is happening? So you have to see that if the particularly strong, then he will never cling because if they would be, if look at the government functionaries and other, if they are trying to cling to the government, that is office that means something is wrong either within home place or something is wrong. Because a person can't be having an attention span of more than 5,000, 7,000, 4,000. We have to address these issues rather than it's a as a society, we have to address this issue. Regulation, building environment, but given the capacities, we can't be forcing people. So that's a challenge. We have to see that how we balance it out. And this problem is going to, with the ambition and the value system, more or less coming previously it used to be knowledge, now it value system is money only. In what, why, who can prove you have to pay it money? So if that value system is there, right from, it's not the upper class, the lower class also this problem is there. Because mental health issues, they ultimately culminate into the substance abuse, the drug abuse, everything. The addictions and other things also link to the mental issues. It's not a simple thing. You have to look it in the different gamut. And there are many social difficulties to that. We have to address that. Absolutely, absolutely. Absolutely, Gopal. Of course, I think it's not just the regulatory pushes also the awareness part of it and people being aware, unless they are aware, I mean, they won't even go for the treatment. Piyali, two questions for you. We have 10 minutes. So I have my last set of questions. To you first, you know, one you mentioned, you know, again, I'm coming to that, a lived experience, you know. First, tell me, how can people with lived experience contribute to the mental health discourse in the country? And second, there's another taboo, you know, I might say postpartum depression and not many people talk of even that part of it. So if you could respond to these two questions, you know. Yeah, sure, Ruhal. You know, before I go on to these questions, I just want to add that, you know, the taboo of mental health is not just something that's in the lower classes. I think that's not the fact. In fact, I know a lot of extremely educated, foreign educated, you know, established people who are seeing symptoms and are not taking treatment because they do not want the tag of being mentally ill. Because like Dr. Madan Gopal said earlier in the conversation, mental health was considered being lunatic, right? I mean, you heard about the journey of, you know, how from a lunatic act it's now become something else. And I think that association, right? And that correlation of mental illness being something to do with being mad or not being okay or being unstable or being a lunatic is something that we still deal with. And it's very much prevalent even in upper class society as well as in middle classes and in all classes, right? Coming to the question of how can people with lived experiences, that is PWLE, people like me, contribute to the overall discourse, a couple of things. One is I think people with lived experiences should be actively sought out for forums, for discussions, for discourses, for various activations in mental health and the awareness-building initiatives of mental health to come and openly talk about their experiences. Now, everybody has a certain level of comfort in talking about it. Today, I can openly talk about my experiences of living with depression and anxiety. Five years back, I was not this person, right? And something in me changed and I decided to become an advocate. Now, not everybody is going to be an advocate and that's fine, but the ones who are ready to talk about it and the ones who actually come out and shared their experiences should be sought out in organizations, outside organizations to come and share their experiences so that people who do not have the illness know exactly what is it like to live with the illness and the symptoms and more importantly know that there are, there is a difference between the symptoms of the illness and the human being. And often, because the symptoms often engulf the human being, we forget to look at the human being separately from the symptoms of the illness, right? And I think these are things that are very important to be understood, particularly in the workplace environment, right? The second thing that I want to say is that people with lived experiences are a very rich resource of all kinds of information. Now, whether that is information that is needed to do further research, whether that is the information needed to do a breakthrough study in mental health. For example, I have contributed a lot of my time towards these kinds of researches and things like that. And the idea is to actually tap into that, right? And finally, the third thing that I want to talk about is that there's a lot of conversation today around diversity, equity, and inclusion. We talk about DE&I all the time. It's the other buzzword. But what is really diversity, equity, and inclusion? Diversity, equity, and inclusion can't just be about hiring a woman's CEO. It can't just be about hiring 50 cents. Not the gender, just the gender conversation. Yeah, it is not just about gender diversity. That is, yes, one kind of diversity for sure. But real diversity, equity, and inclusion is about actively hiring all kinds of people with all kinds of experiences. Whether they're mentally ill people, whether they're people with a physical disability, whether they're people from the LGBTQIA community, whether they're people in the autism spectrum, are you actively hiring people of all kinds, including neurodiverse people, so that your workplace clearly becomes something truly diverse for you to be then able to tap into the resources that you have and build policies that truly make your workplace inclusive. Otherwise, I think we're doing a great disservice to the whole conversation of diversity, equity, and inclusion. So that, I think, is the first part of the question. The second part of the question was about, and I hope that answers your question, the second part of the question was about postpartum depression. Our postpartum depression is depression that affects new mothers after they have had a child. They suddenly slip into depression. I know of many cases, people that I have worked with, people that I continue to work with, people that I have the highest amount of respect for, who have gone through this very, very challenging phase. And although I am not a mother myself, but I've gone through and I'm currently continue to go through depression, which is a life alterating, debilitating disease, which becomes very, very challenging to deal with when you are also having to get to work and get things done and carry out your responsibilities there. We have to understand that 20%, if you look at the data today, 20% of women in India, new mothers in India suffer from postpartum depression. That's one in five new mothers. It's as common as that. And yet there are no conversations around it. There is again a lot of misconceptions, stigma around it. And the more I think about it, the more I feel that it is because women in our culture have always been seen as, you know, as nurturers. And that is supposed to be a default role in the culture, right? So you cannot somehow, you know, come to terms with this idea of a woman who's become a mother, being depressed, right? I mean, you sort of by default thing that somebody who's a mother and has just given birth to a child is by default extremely happy and very content. But that's just not how brain chemicals work. You know, I mean, it is a different phase of life that she's getting into. Her priorities in life have changed overnight. Her body is going through all kinds of changes that she herself is not being able to make sense of. And she's entering a phase of life which she's not really prepared for. She has no firsthand experience of it, right? So obviously it's an extremely challenging time and therefore postpartum depression is a reality. It is something hundreds of women are dealing with quietly, silently, not able to speak up at work. In fact, I remember this absolutely brilliant campaign that Prager News had done about three to four years ago on postpartum depression, which I think everybody should watch on YouTube. And it's just something that organizations are ill-equipped to handle. They have no idea how to handle this. They have not done anything to understand how to build a support system around new mothers and building a support system around new mothers is not just about giving them a crash and giving them maternity leave and giving them off-time and things like that. It is also about understanding whether they are going through a severe mental illness and how do you then sort of support them? So I mean, those are my points of view on this. I hope I think that answers your question. Absolutely. I think really you have given a very elaborate view of the problem. My last set of questions to Dr. Gupta and Dr. Gopal. Dr. Gupta, to you, what changes are needed to ensure that preventive mental health care becomes a top priority at all levels? First to you, Dr. Gupta. Yeah, thank you, sir. I think if you go through the whole symposium and ultimately this is what actually the take-home message is for everyone who is listening and probably this is very important. Now, first thing to find out, I said, if you want to improve the mental health of any organization, probably you have to understand the facts. You have to find out what the work-related risk factors, which can actually are causing a great mental stress among the employees or the workers. So what is required to be done? You have to find out the causes. It could be a poor communication, both horizontal, vertical, diagonal. There's a very poor interaction between, among the workers, who they're managers or seniors in any organization. So interaction is important. We have to encourage interaction so that they can come out with their problems. Then we have to train our people. One, you can compensate your, or you can improve the efficiency of your workers or your employees by empowering them by good training, good skills, if you teach them. You have to look after in case that they are working in an unsafe environment. So you have to see the safety of their environment. You have to improve their decision-making, like all the workers, they should be empowered if they wanted something to be done, something to be modified. Probably they should be given the liberty to change. Even our own organization's objective also should be clear. It is not only profit-making or your goal achieving, you have to see the limitations in which they are working and probably they are doing their best. And if you improve their working conditions, probably their output will definitely improve. Then we can promote the mental head by positive aspect of the work. We can make the ambience, good lighting, optimal temperature, availability of their recreational activity, their availability of food, good canteen. I think these are various incentives. Then you have to have active measures to improve the mental health. You can have create some platform where people can come and have access. You can appoint counselors where actually they can go and interact rather than interact with their superiors. Probably they are much better. Accessibility, we have to improve in the system so that people should come out. You can facilitate, you can empower, you can have some staff, developmental programs where probably they are more encouraged to join and probably their income and future prospects also improve. So overall, you have to see them. Of course, then you have to provide them free or subsidize your checkups, availability of treatment. So I think if you see in total, probably you can improve their ways and means to find out and their ways and means to improve the mental health of the organization. Right. Final words, Dr. Gopal. Well, thanks. One of the important things at workplace is that we should have a workplace policy for dealing with the mental health of the persons. One way is to adopt that ESG framework which everybody talks about, but very few adopt. We say, how we move towards adopting that ESG framework. We only create stress to the employees. Now we see that how to distress them by creating recreational activities and opportunities for them. It's very easy because many of the organizations for the sake of recreation, they create gym facilities there. But gym and other thing, only the persons who are interested in doing this, what the gym method is, they would be going in. The other games also with the people can play and they can relax themselves. You have to create that kind of culture. The hierarchy has to cut across all the sections. It should not be that I'm the boss, you're the worker. They should play all played together. Then only the collective feeling and the commodity will come and the collective growth of the organization can happen. There are a lot of things to be done, but the things have to start at our level. What best we can do to see that the person whom we are interacting at the house level, how you are treating with your household heads and other person. It has to start from there. So how you treat your colleagues and others. We have to start from our side and the organization can evolve and mature around that thing. I will stop here. Otherwise, a lot of things to be done. It's very easy to talk about mental health, this to be done, this to be done. But it's true, we have to nurse the people in changing their behavior. It has to start from us. So that we can talk and we can take it forward. I'm sorry, I'm really sorry we're out of time, but thank you so much Piyali, Dr. Gupta and Dr. Gopal for sharing your insightful thoughts on this discussion. Thank you very much for your time. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you, I've seen the panelists. Thank you for joining us today. Well, ladies and gentlemen, what a fabulous panel discussion. This has been such great insights coming in. But we'd really like to thank once again, all of you for joining us and let's keep tweeting hashtag for MCCC. But it's only a matter of minutes that we shall commence with our awards ceremony for the E4M Health Mark-On Awards 2022, the moment which you've all been waiting for. Requesting you all to not leave from wherever you are as we're gonna be coming right back and all the ones who are joining us physically, we're looking forward to hosting you all. Thank you for being such a great audience. This is Leigh Bhavnabhathya signing off on behalf of E4M for the current conference and we'll see you at the awards. Thank you. Thank you very much.