 Arrest and incarceration are very blunt tools and we have lots of evidence that these tools are overused in our current society. And so before you make something a crime, you need to have a really high bar for how certain you are that this is worth ruining a person's life and ruining their family's life. Boom, what's up everyone? Welcome to Simulation. I'm your host, Alan Sokian. We are still in Cambridge in Massachusetts. We are not going to be talking about criminal justice reform. We have Elizabeth Edwards joining us on the show. Hello. Hi. Thanks so much for coming on the show, really appreciate it. It's a pleasure to be here. We're really excited. We're going to have a lot of great conversation. Elizabeth's background is epic. She spent four years as a representative in New Hampshire's legislature from 2014 to 2018. Her main focus was criminal justice reform and she was the first representative to sponsor a bill that would decriminalize sex work. So we're going to be talking about a lot of that journey and harm reduction, prisons, civil liberties. Very excited to get into this. All right, Elizabeth, let's start things off with your journey. You know, who are you? How did you become who you are today? Yeah, I think that my interest in politics stemmed from conversations with my father from a very young age. We listened to a lot of talk radio. We watched a lot of news and he was always very interested in my opinion. I think starting in second grade, I would get into arguments with my teacher about when it seemed like they had some kind of political slant. So I've always been, but I still managed to pull off being the teacher's pet somehow. So that was who I was from a young age. I wanted to be a supreme court justice in middle school. That was my career aspiration back then. So I've always cared a lot about politics. And then in college, I became an anarchist. Yeah, this is a wild turn in the story. A quick point is that it's cool that you and your father had so much discourse around news and politics growing up because that's a good way to get engaged with what's happening in the world, get the kids engaged. And especially when the adults are hearing out the young people's opinions and ideas. Yeah, sure. Although there's always the nature versus nurture question. Right. Like my sister barely cares at all about politics. So is it my dad's, is it my dad's genes? Is that why we care about this stuff? Or is it the conversations we had? I don't know. Yeah, that's, it's your sister doesn't care as much. Not really. No, she like, I don't think she even voted. You were like really engaged and she was not engaging in the political conversations with him as much. I don't know. It's hard to say. There's like, I remember my conversations with him and I think, and he tried to get her interested, certainly, because it's what he's passionate about. She wasn't saying she wanted to be a Supreme Court Justice. No. Yeah. Okay, so then anarchist in college, which is interesting. Okay, and this is in New York. Yeah, I went to a state university of New York, the college at Brockport, which is where I met my wife. And I think that when I started college, okay, so when I started college, I was an ROTC. And I wanted, it's pretty, it's a pretty interesting evolution. So I was an ROTC. And I had political beliefs that were pretty close to my dad's political beliefs, which was kind of like a pre-Trump obviously, kind of like a small government conservative, almost. And like socially liberal, physically conservative, but also very kind of hawkish on foreign policy. And so I wanted to join the military to fight the terrorists. And that's how I was when I joined. Well, that's what I thought was, like, at the time, I was like a proto EA. That's the conference where it right now is EA, GX, and effective altruism. Right. Yeah. So it's always like, well, what is the best way that I can make the world a better place is basically the central question of EA. And I had never heard of EA at this time, of course. But a lot of people answer that question with, I want to join the military. And so that was my plan. And then it's a good thing that I left ROTC after a year, largely because of Don't Ask, Don't Tell and my relationship with my girlfriend at the time. Can you teach us about that policy? Right. Don't Ask, Don't Tell said that you're allowed to have gay feelings as long as nobody finds out about it. So that was really rough, being a college student. My first real relationship, my first real romantic relationship was with another girl. And the campus was my home where I, you know, I'd go to the dining hall and I couldn't show physical affection to her because other cadets could be in the dining hall. And so I only lasted an ROTC for a year before I left. And it was very convenient that I did leave because it would have been really awkward to be a senior and an anarchist and in ROTC. Yeah. So this is, is this policy still in? No. Don't Ask, Don't Tell was repealed. Who was it implemented by and why? Bill Clinton. Wow. It was seen as, because the previous policy was you have to, like, for to get to join the military, you have to forswear any kind of homosexual feelings or conduct. So this was like, it's okay to be a homosexual as long as you don't talk about it. So it was actually, it was a step in the right direction in the early 90s. Wow. Wow. So you couldn't, you actually, when you joined pre-Clinton, you pre-Clinton, they would ask you, are you a homosexual? Whoa. Yeah. Yeah. And that would disqualify you. Damn. This is some old code. Yeah. It's good to see us moving in new code. Yeah, into new code. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. And so is there now a new policy in place that is like, you can be whoever you... Yeah. It's the, I mean, there are still like rules of conduct around like sex and romance in the military. Like for example, like adultery is strongly punished in the military, but you can, but the same rules apply to gay relationships as straight relationships. Okay. So you, there's now, you can openly be gay. Yeah. You can be openly gay. Oh, that's a huge step. Oh, yeah. That's much better. I think. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Okay. Great. Thank you for teaching us about that. Sure. All right. So then, so then, you know, what was this whole anarchist? Okay. So, so basically I had like the makings of a little, of like a libertarian, except that I thought like a strong national defense was essential for for spreading democracy abroad and protecting America and killing bad people. And, and then I read a book by Ron Paul and it basically explained the concept of blowback in a way I found really convincing that American foreign policy creates conflict and creates terrorists and does more harm than good. Which again, goes back to me being sort of like a proto EA is that like, well, does this satisfy the cost benefit analysis? And I think, and I, and I was convinced by Ron Paul's book that the answer was no. And so it was like, well, if you don't even need a government for to, you know, to have a strong military then at that point, I was like, well, what do you even need a government for? I read another book called Healing Our World in an Age of Aggression, which is a very peace and love title by a woman named Dr. Mary Ruert. And that book laid out basically why you should the moral and consequentialist case for never using government for anything for any aim whatsoever. Interesting. Like always using private industry for like maybe? Yeah, private action, private action, private charity, all that stuff for everything. And I found that book very convincing. I didn't, probably because it accorded with my beliefs, with the way that my beliefs were already leaning at the time, right? And that was the last, basically the last straw. Another thing that was going on around that time was that it was the 2008 presidential election. And I really wanted to vote in it because it was the first year I could vote. And I was a junior in college at this point. And the I didn't want to vote for John McCain or Barack Obama. And I watched the, especially because after watching the vice presidential debate, it about five minutes in, it made me cry. I started crying, watching Sarah Palin and Joe Biden give the same answer to a question, like the same completely meaningless answer full of like populist drivel to a question about preventing future financial crises. And I started crying with despair for the future of the country. And my, my girlfriend turned the TV off in our dorm. And so I didn't have any hope. I was like, there's no hope for America. And I still wanted to vote. So I started researching third parties. And I was, I went down the Wikipedia rabbit hole. And that's how I found out about the Free State Project. Okay, cool. All right. So quick pre Free State Project. I think what you brought up is so interesting about how some of the actions that have been taken throughout time, even all, let's say six million years of this human evolution, that whenever we think that we're, you know, going in and making an intervention in someone else's life and their, and their land and their peace and dignity, that sometimes these, these recoils happen that are worse that make things worse than just having somehow being able to have a discourse about it and just be at peace. Yeah. Yeah. Making decisions for other people is a very fraught and dangerous activity. At this point in my life, I think that sometimes we should do it anyway, but with a lot of caution. Interesting. And could you maybe give us an idea of what that would look like? Sure. Like, I think publicly funded vaccination programs are a good example of this. Coordination, any kind of coordination problem where any one person would be worse off doing the thing, but everybody would be better off if everybody did the thing. That's a coordination problem, and it's a good candidate for a type of thing that the government ought to do. Oh, interesting. Okay. So the coordination problems where everyone's better off if they, if we all do, like no one ever kills anyone, like things like that? Well, more, I think a really good example is like, like air and water pollution is because like I would be better off if I like created a product and sent and created externalities that I didn't really have to worry about. Like, you know, when I pollute the air with my economic output, I only face, you know, one seven billionth of the cost of that, whereas I get all of the profits for myself. So this is clearly a coordination problem because everybody has the incentive to profit at the expense of air and water simply because the air and water are, it's very difficult to internalize those externalities, right? So I think air and water pollution is something that the private sector can't really solve. Now, on the other hand, you always have to ask yourself, is the government also polluting our air and water? Like, it's not just private actors. So how do we treat the air and the water and our biosphere as a public good that we harmonize with? Yeah, completely. Interesting. Okay. So then it was the free free state project and you heard about that in New York and then you moved to New Hampshire. Yeah. So I found out about the free state project and I thought, oh, good. I don't have to worry about the country as a whole. Like obviously the country as a whole is is too hard. It's too much. So I'm just going to, these people have this idea to just focus on one state and they voted and they picked New Hampshire. So all of the liberty activists, which is what free status often refer to themselves as, are going to move to New Hampshire and we're going to at least create an island of as little government as possible or preserve, in a lot of cases, just preserve the small government ethos that New Hampshire already has because it is a very like lean, let's say lean state when it comes to the state government. And how can you teach us about how it's lean? Yeah, sure. So for example, in New Hampshire, there's no general sales tax on goods and there is also no state income tax. There's like a capital gains tax but no tax on regular income. None? Right, exactly. I mean, you have to pay your federal tax. You have to pay federal. Yeah, but there's no state income tax. And no Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security. Those are all federal services. So you get all those. So you get those but not state tax. So you're paying only what percent then total? Whatever your federal tax bracket is. So that means that the state government largely resorts to property taxes. Local and state governments largely resort to property taxes. And capital gains. And there is a small capital gains tax. Yeah, and there's also like a rooms and meals tax. So if you go to a restaurant, you're paying a tax on the food at the restaurant. And if you buy cigarettes, you're paying a state tax on the cigarettes. But there's no like blanket sales tax. No blanket sales tax. If I eat at a restaurant, I pay a tax. And if I get cigarettes, I pay a tax. Yeah, stuff like that. Property tax is the biggest. And property taxes. Oh yeah, property taxes are like, and that's the thing that a lot of people complain about is they say, well, maybe if we had an income tax, our property taxes wouldn't be so high. But I think that in state, I think that like historically states that implement an income tax with the idea that, oh, this will allow us to reduce property taxes, that doesn't actually happen. The overall tax burden just goes up. So and then it does relying on mostly property tax also potentially make it so that the sliding scale of who pays the most taxes is a little more fair. Those that have like really good. Yeah, I mean, I think if you're looking at it from the perspective of what kind of taxes are the most justifiable, like morally, which is not a particularly, it's not really a consequentialist question. Well, you could be a consequentialist about it and say like, a land value tax is the causes the least amount of distortion, like economic distortion and deadweight loss. So that's one reason to like land value taxes, which isn't quite, which isn't the same as property taxes, but it's in the sort of the same category, right? And then, but also from a more of a deontological standpoint, which is where a lot of libertarians are coming from, I think that property tax is more justifiable because you're saying you can't come onto this land. And the state is the one enforcing that people aren't allowed to trespass on this land that you've claimed. Although in theory, like, how did you get the right to that land? You know, it was, you go back far enough, it was taken from somebody else, it was taken, it was taken out of the public commons and assigned to one person. And so you are restricting somebody's freedom of movement by claiming land as your own. So some, you know, I'm very familiar with all the infighting amongst libertarians and anarchists and like pseudo anarchists and mid-archists and all the little subgroups because I was embroiled in that culture in New Hampshire for several years. And that led you to decide to want to run? Well, I I wanted to run for office because I wanted to, at the time, I wanted to reduce the suffering caused by government. And I was focused on that suffering caused by government because I was an anarchist. And this is the criminal justice reform? Yes, and that's why I was focused on criminal justice reform is because our criminal justice system causes so much pain and suffering. And of course, I still do believe that. And I think a lot of, I think a lot, if not a majority of prison sentences are unjustifiable. And we're not focused on rehabilitating as much as we are just incarcerating? Yeah, yeah. And, you know, it's everybody agrees that the incarceration rate in this country is out of control. Out of control? Yeah. I heard there's more people in jail here than in China. And China has like four times the population of the United States. You mean total or per capita? Yeah, total. That wouldn't, it wouldn't surprise me. It would not surprise me. Which is a crazy stat, if that's true. That's, with four times the population, how do we have more people in jail? Yeah, it's pretty messed up. Yeah. Okay, so then, you know, your passion for criminal justice reform, you know, you took down prisons there. I want to know, you know, also kind of, you know, baking this into how you got involved in New Hampshire's legislature, but really just on a solving prisons. Rehabilitating, yeah. What are your thoughts there? Oh, man. I think in general, when it comes to policy change, my experience anyway, is that it's easier to advocate at the margin for policies that reduce sentence length and keep people out of prison in the first place than it is to fix conditions in prisons because there's, when it, well, first of all, you can only, you could only be an expert in one of these things. This is one of the things that I didn't really realize, is that you can either be, is that learning about prison reform and becoming the kind of person who can advocate for changes in the design and functioning and purpose of prisons is its own project and is separate from the question of, should this be a crime and should people go to jail for it? And so, even though I see it as, like, both of those things are part of the broader issue of criminal justice reform, is it was really hard to try to keep both of, to keep both of those balls in the air. That's what I found personally. And also another issue is that when it comes to getting people to testify in favor of a bill, it's really hard to get prisoners to testify because they're in prison. And usually for any misguided law, you can find somebody who would say, if I had ever been caught for this, I would be in jail, but I'm not in jail right now, like by the grace of God. You can find that kind of person. But somebody who has, who has been caught and has been to jail is automatically less credible to legislators, because legislators have, legislators tend to have a lot of faith in systems and in institutions, way too much faith in institutions, because there's a selection effect where the kind of people who run for office are the kind of people who had relatively easy life. So the institution served them well. Wow. Yeah. Wow. What did you call that effect? The, it's a selection. A selection effect. Yeah. Because in order to run for office, it's more likely that you will be running for office if you have had a middle class life. Yeah. A good life. A good life where you didn't have to struggle for food. Yeah. Or for love or compassion or for, you know, or all these other basic needs, physiological needs that it's much, yeah. And a lot of the time we need that, that's why potentially if we find people that are in the legislatures of the state and even at the, in the Congress level that it would be a profound shift in awareness for a country if they had a more diverse socioeconomic us, if they had, yeah, because then you gain the empathy from what it's like to be behind the eyes of someone that didn't come from that same homogenized background. Yeah. And I think this effect is even worse in New Hampshire because legislators are not really paid. They're paid $100 a year. $100 a year? Yes. So it's mainly. So how do they live? Well, it's mainly retirees. I was supported by my wife and I did like some side jobs and stuff like that. But it's mainly retirees. The median age of the New Hampshire state house is 67. Wow. So these are people who had the financial well-being to retire, first of all, because some people never get to retire. And people who have the good health in their retirement to take on what is essentially a volunteer position. So that goes back to people who had relatively easy lives, although I'm not saying every, I mean, really when you get right down to it, nobody has an easy life, but there's harder lives and easier lives, right? I really appreciated how when you're describing about the prison system that it's important to you're juggling these balls and that, and you're talking about the extreme difficulty of the nuance and all the variables that are coming in, but really at a perspective of what are, what is it, something ridiculous, like almost 50% of people incarcerated in jails due to cannabis still or something egregious like that? No, it's not that high. It's not that high. It's, if you look at like drug-related offenses, it's around 50%. Total drug-related offenses around 50%. I think so, yeah, if you include like jails and prisons. And cannabis is still like a good chunk of that. It's a, yeah, it's a good chunk, but it's nowhere close to 50% of the total incarcerated population. I need to learn about that more. I went, I went, I was incarcerated for four months for having cannabis in South Dakota. Oh my gosh. Yeah, so these types of, yeah, because I always think about the lost potential, yeah. Oh yeah, and that's something that we don't track as a cost usually. We talk about like one of the, there's the seen costs and the unseen costs. And one of the seen costs is like, well, how much does it cost to build a prison, you know, pay the prison guards and stuff like that. But the costs that are almost never factored in is like the lost economic output of a person who is now, who cannot like contribute to the economy and generate value and generate wealth for himself and his community because he has this on his record. And it doesn't even take a conviction to do that. An arrest can do that. Yeah, the reform is so important. I'm really excited to continue hearing about, you know, you and hopefully other people around the country that are working on this and around the world. Okay, so that was, that was prisons. And we have other, you know, besides, you know, civil liberties, harm reduction, and then the sex worker, sex worker discrimination. Right. Well, and the whole other thing was that I, when I won my primary in 2014, I was an anarchist. But then by the time I was sworn in, I wasn't really anything anymore because I had this crisis of faith. And that's what led me to this community in this conference was I was questioning all of my beliefs, because I wanted to do a good job at decision making and policy. So that was pretty wild getting sworn in and not really knowing, feeling like the ground was moving under my feet and like my dogma was insufficient and misguided was a very uncertain time in my life. Yeah. So you went from getting sworn in as an anarchist, feeling this, you know, ground shift from under you, and then you're surrounded by 67 year olds on average? Yeah. I mean, by and large, I think a lot of people assume that it was really hard for me because I'm like a young woman. There was the occasional patronizing comment. But the thing that made it hard was that I had been this fringe activist, I had been arrested for civil disobedience, I had associated with the Free State Project. And that was because I had this dogma and this ideology that I didn't really question. And when I came when I learned about affective altruism, and just like I started examining my cognitive biases a lot more closely in general, I shifted my focus. And I still, in criminal justice reform, thankfully was something that my old self cared about and my new self cared about. Like I checked all of my reasons for caring about criminal justice reform and they all still applied like, yes, there is a vast amount of very expensive and very unnecessary suffering in this system. Like that still held. So at least I was still able to work on the primary issue that I had wanted to work on before I ran for office. So that was a relief. And so some of the ways that I did that was I helped people with their good ideas. Like some of the good ideas were making Narcan available to like more available to third parties. Narcan immediately reverses the effects of an opiate overdose. So it's good to have that in as many people's hands as possible pretty much so that fewer people die of overdoses, which are themselves largely an artifact of the war on drugs and the inability to know what's in your what's in your purchase, right? And then 911 immunity laws was another thing I helped out with, which is saying that if you call 911, you will not be arrested for drug possession. And the person having a medical emergency will not be arrested for drug possession. So because people were scared to call 911 because they didn't want to go to jail. Yeah. And so they would take out their friend's ID and put it somewhere easily visible, prop his body up, call 911 and leave, which is not because that was the incentives was to get out of there before the cops and the EMTs get there. So 911 immunity laws make it less likely that people do that and more likely that people do call the ambulance. That's a really important one. Yeah. So I was a co-sponsor on both of those bills. Another bill that we got passed was we legalized needle exchanges. It was which are needle exchanges are robustly supported in the harm reduction in public health literature for reducing the spread of HIV and hepatitis and also like interacting with a syringe service program makes people more likely to get help for their addiction issues. So even apart from the direct effects of there's less HIV, there's fewer there are fewer hep C transmissions. There's the indirect effect of well, and now people feel connected and cared about by health care professionals. And so they get assistance, they get on, you know, replacement therapy like methadone replacement, or they seek the treatment model that would work best for them and where they are in their stage of life and in their stage of addiction. So anyway, just really, really basic stuff like that. Like we can't, we're not ending the war on drugs today, but we're going to make it more likely that people come out of it alive. Ending suffering was your big tag? Yeah. And apart from drug prohibition, which obviously there are a lot of politicians who oppose that, not enough, but a lot of politicians who oppose that. I read this report from Amnesty International that said that all governments worldwide should decriminalize all aspects of adult, consensual adult sex work. And this was in agreement with the World Health Organization and with the UN Commission on HIV and AIDS that said that these studies, these broad, this broad consensus among public health experts and human rights advocates that sex work should be decriminalized. But there wasn't a single American politician who was willing to put their face to that policy. Wow. And I thought, well, I don't mind putting, I don't mind sticking my name on that and working on this. And so that's kind of the thing that I became the best known for was my advocacy for sex workers rights. The bill, of course, didn't pass. It's more of a 10 or 20 year project than a three or four year project. But my goal was to start the conversation. And we now have a few presidential candidates who are open about supporting sex work, decriminalization. So I think I contributed to that momentum, which is a good feeling. And then what would you say is the most important sort of takeaway, especially from the sex work, decriminalization? Oh gosh. For policymakers, I would say that arrest and incarceration are very blunt tools. And we have lots of evidence that these tools are overused in our current society. And so before you make something a crime, you need to have a really high bar for how certain you are that this is worth ruining a person's life and ruining their family's life. And sex work, criminalization does not meet that standard at all. I think it's partially about what people choose to do with their bodies. It's a bodily sovereignty issue. It's about control of female sexuality. And I mean, because most sex workers are female, and the demonization of women who charge instead of fitting into more traditional models of relationships and sexuality, it's about criminalization of impoverished women because sex work is something you can do with no education. So it's something that a lot of, and it's something that you can do without a lot of, like there's a low barrier to entry. So it's a way of controlling and punishing women in poverty. And a lot of people point to the Nordic model and say, well, what if we just made it illegal for the people who are paying for it? And the answer is that the evidence doesn't really support that model because it makes it harder for sex workers to screen their clients. It makes it so that the police still see sex workers as contributing to a criminal enterprise, even if they can't arrest the sex worker, they still see them as collaborators in crime. So what you want is a sex worker who can go to police when she's raped or robbed. A sex worker can go to the police when she suspects that somebody is being trafficked. A sex worker who is happy and hopeful about going to the police when her friend doesn't show up the next day. The homicide rate of U.S. sex workers is 200 per 100 thousand, which is in just, it's basically unthinkable. So there's a lot of work to do. Yeah, I don't think I've ever, you know, you really unpacked it in the nuance really well there. It's obvious that you've been spending a lot of time thinking about it. And then you also, I don't think anyone's ever, you know, made it so clear that before someone makes something a crime, an officer makes something a crime to really think out the effect that it has on the person and the person's family, that's a really interesting way of seeing it. And if we can do criminal justice reform to the point where I'm interested to hear your take on this, but a lot of the issues that civilization has in its code, we sometimes argue that if we were just to have slowed down and think better about how we want to, you know, build the future in a way that where all physiological needs are met, everyone's able to creatively flourish, we're more spiritually enlightened, we're not violent against each other, these types of things. What do you think about that? Oh gosh, it sounds great. I'm a little skeptical of utopian visions because, well, for a lot of reasons. I mean, first off, they were just so far away from anything like that. There's just still so much broken in this world. So the gap between here and there, but also that a lot of utopian visions are when people try to enact them, there's often violence and sort of dystopian outcomes. I would love if people were more careful about institutional design. And I think that reforming the decision-making processes at institutions, even just to do basic best practices when it comes to a group decision, like we know what makes groups make bad decisions, conformity pressure, for instance, and there are ways to reduce conformity pressure. But a lot of times this sort of basic, how do we get this group to make a good choice? A lot of those things that we already know about social psychology are just not followed in public and private organizations. I know they certainly were often not followed in committees in the New Hampshire legislature and are not followed in legislatures and committees and groups of policymakers all over the country and all over the world. So instead of imagining, instead of thinking, oh, well, we can make sure everybody's needs are met and everybody is happy, I try to focus on a little smaller thing, like, let's make people less reckless. Like, just a little less reckless for right now, because there's so much. That's a way to slowly titrate peace is by decreasing recklessness. Yeah, that's a good way to put it. I like that a lot, Elizabeth. Two quick questions on the way out. We like to ask these questions to our guests on the show. First question is if you think we're in a simulation. Oh gosh. I'm gonna say no, but I understand the argument and I find the argument a bit unnerving. Yeah, we like to like to ask questions, a fun one. And the other question is what do you think is the most beautiful thing in the world? My wife. Tell us why. She has these freckles all over her face and they even like extend onto her upper lip if you look really closely, which is so cute. And the way that she wakes up in the morning, like when the morning light is on her face and she has it's like a it's like a sunrise, like the pink, like the pink on her cheeks and like the really light purple bluish undertones under her eyes and like the like peachy complexion and her eyes are blue like the sky. And so it's just like the sunrise on a human face. And it's the face of the person that I married. And that I want to spend this entire lifetime with. So I know that's a really cheesy answer. I love the way that you describe such detail on the in your most beautiful thing. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much for coming on our show and talking to us and teaching us. This has been so enlightening. You're very welcome. Such a pleasure. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks everyone for tuning in. We greatly appreciate it. We would love to hear your thoughts in the comments below on the episode. Go and talk to more people about criminal justice reform and what exactly goes into deploying these types of changes into our world. Share with your friends, your family, communities, online, co-workers. Also, go and support the artists and entrepreneurs that you believe in. Support the organizations around the world that you believe in. Simulations links are below. Help us continue doing cool things like coming to Cambridge to conduct interviews. And go and build the future, everyone. Manifest your dreams into the world. Thank you so much for tuning in. And we will see you soon. Peace.