 I don't think the vegan diet is good for you. These pretend foods are processed. That's not healthy. And bacon is? I think so. It's an opinion. It's my opinion. I've got an opinion that dog f***s healthy too. Yeah, but why pretend if you're against the entire thing? We're against the murder, we're not against the taste. Oh, that's, oh, that sounds, you, you have people that propose. No, because one, that sounds extreme. One is do you agree with the farming system as it is? Yeah. Knowing it's not a need. I actually like meat. The fact that you like meat justifies infinite suffering and killing for these animals. I guess. You don't believe in nonviolence anymore, obviously. I believe in bacon. There you go. I've had two beers, by the way. Oh, you've had two beers, so... Is that a problem? No, not a problem at all. It's fine. So you were saying veganism is a religion? It's a religion. Yeah, it's... Tell me what. So I don't think this is normal, sat in the street with a table and asking people why you're not a vegan. If not a religion, a political party or an ideology. I got that. It doesn't seem just like a diet to me. You guys seem... It's a way of life. All right, I understand veganism. It might be healthier. It might be more environmentally friendly. No doubt about that. I don't wonder what the planet would be like. Because human beings, if they don't need a cow, then we might not have cows. OK, we're jumping around quite a lot here. Yeah, so... Because I want to address the first 17 things you said first before we get on to the next 17 things. So first you said it's like a religion and maybe... Or a political party. Or a political party or an ideology. And you're right, it isn't an ideology. Not all ideologies are bad. Some ideologies are very good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? And the fact that I'm sitting here on the table, we're filming for content, right? But I do do outreach where I try to persuade people to be vegan. Yeah. And you might think, well, that's because I want you to be part of my religion. Like, I've got some narcissistic reason to want you to be like me. It seems a little... I just stuck into the newborn Christian down there. Yeah, yeah, I know. Who's shouting away with a microphone. Christians, you're... And he's saying, I'm right, you're wrong. I got you. And this sounds a little bit like that. It's nothing like that at all. The reason I care that people are not vegan is because they create a direct demand for non-human animals who feel pain, are sentient like us in all the ways that matter, they matter morally. Direct consumer demand forces these animals often into a life of hell and to be slaughtered for that particular person's demand. Absolutely, yeah, yeah, yeah. So basically, it's more like we don't want you to do this to the animals. We want the animals to have rights. The things you do matter to them, which is why we're asking the people to stop making up that demand. Okay, yeah. Would you be less angry if things... If animals were treated properly, more humanely... Okay, we can talk about that. Not battery... I would like to talk about that with you. Yeah. Because you're talking about like an organic humane situation. So I'm not saying one thing or the other. I'm thinking the middle way. Do you understand that this is less like a faith-based religion and more like... You're still sat here asking people why don't you follow my ideology. When I'm sure a lot of people have heard about it. Which is not... Have looked into it and have decided, oh, I like meat. I'm going to carry on like me. I like meat. I'm going to carry on eating meat. Maybe. I would say that they are acting in an immoral way when they... Immoral. Yeah, immoral. Immoral way when they create the demand for something so horrific. I mean, I don't know if you agree with what happens in the farming system as it is. I would not stop it. I would just like it to be more humane and definitely we could do, you know, we could eat meat once a month instead of once a week. I didn't appreciate an answer. I just said, do you agree with the farming system as it is? Yeah. You agree with it? Yeah. So factory farming, you agree with? Yeah. The animals being... Yeah. Coarse suffering and then killed? You agree with that? Yeah. OK. So why would you... It's a solution to a need. Is it a need to eat meat? Well, yeah, it's... OK, it might not be a need. You could be vegetarian. Or vegan. Or vegan. Vegetarian makes more sense. So you're saying if we needed to do this, it would be justified. But... We don't need to do it. We don't need to do it. But we still choose to do it. We choose to do it. But I'm asking, do you agree with it? Knowing it's not a need? I do agree with it, actually. Sorry. OK. Do you think it's a... Do you think it's a... Like a good thing? Or you just think it's like... It's what's happened always. Yeah. We've always done it. Yeah. And it's actually... I think it's getting better. Factory farming has only exist for like... No, OK. Oh, no. Not my... I think the 20s or the 30s or something? I... OK. We haven't always done this. I would rather... They had a humane life. That's not what happens. No, no, no, no. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I'm... Well, why do you think that way? Sorry to interrupt you, but I just want to... I don't want to come off of this point because you're going to humane life now. I'm talking about what happens now. Factory farming... OK, OK. Mass slaughter. You're saying it's completely fine. I don't want to move off of this and I want to address this, right? Because I actually like meat. OK. I'm not going to stop consuming meat. So the fact that you like meat justifies infinite suffering and killing for these animals? I guess. So you eat... What animals do you eat, cows? Chickens, pigs, fish? All the ones that conventionally people have been conditioned to eat, right? Conditions. Of course. They've ate it up to... up to a million years before. 400,000 years, they've ate it out of survival and out of need. What, conventional pigs? No, no, no. Animals. You eat conventional pigs? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, conventional chickens. Yeah. Right, there's going to have to do with survival or what we ate back then. We're not doing it for the same reasons. We're not doing it for survival at all. Yes, you have been conditioned to eat those animals. That's why you don't eat dogs and cats, but you do eat pigs and chickens, yeah? Yeah, yeah. So it's conditioning. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's why... If you were in China, you might eat dogs. Some places in China, but other places in China are against eating dogs. So you learn that... You learn this where the dog eats. And we see it as a pet and they see it as food. But they're sent in experience. They're conscious experiences. Is it different that much, a dog and a pig, do you think? Probably not. Now a pig's supposed to be very intelligent. Is it wrong to kill a dog? For food? If I'm not hungry? Just... Yeah, yeah. So I'm not hungry, right? Yeah. There's a dog here. Vegan option here. Yeah. I decide, because I like the f***ing taste or whatever, some bull***. I'm going to decapitate this dog. Is that wrong? It's wrong in my culture, because I see a dog as a... No, I'm just asking, not your country. I'm just asking you. No, not county. Your personal worldview. You. Yeah, I would say it's wrong. Is it wrong for you? You personally? Yeah, yeah. It is wrong? Yeah. Okay. And if I put a pig here and do exactly the same thing, is it wrong? No. Okay. Spell out the difference for me. Why is one wrong and one's not? Because we're used to eating pigs. If I was used to eating dogs, does it make it okay? If that's all reason? Not from my point of view, but maybe from that calcée. Do you think it's a good enough justification? Because we're used to do it, that it's a... We're used to doing it, that is that a good enough justification? It's what, you know, I'm used to eating meat. Yeah. And I like it. Yeah. I'm not going to stop doing it. Yeah. And I think it's fine that you're being... Then beside the point. Beside the point. Beside the point. I'm trying to get to the moral question. I know you like it. I know you don't want to stop doing it. I'm trying to analyse your morality, see if it's consistent, see if you contradict yourself, see if you have a double standard. I want to find out why you give reverence to a dog and not a pig. When through their eyes, their experiences are no different, really. Like, they want to live just as much as each other. They feel pain and suffering just as much as you can. I understand you're... Where you coming from? Yeah. I just... Just don't care? I don't know if that's the right question. I'm just thinking I don't have to deal with killing an animal. You go to the supermarket, it's there. I hear you buy the steak. You're disconnected. Like I was, I ate meat for a long time. You fry it and you eat it and it's fine. And you don't think about it. Because you don't have to experience the pain of suffering the murder they had to. But if I had to go hunting for it, I might. If you had to? Yeah. There's a lot of things I would do if I had to too. I don't really care what we have. I would go to war if we had to. But I'm saying right now we don't have to do this, do we? You're not doing it for survival, bro. I don't think the vegan diet is good for you. OK, this is another question. But we can address that. Because how did you go from, is it moral to do this to, I don't think the vegan diet is good for you. Is it because you think we need to do this for our health? I think we need a small amount of animal protein. What for? Because we've always had it. Where did you get this belief from that we need animal protein? Where does it come from? Well, it's historical. I think we've always had that. So when animals, we've always had eggs. We've always had milk. We've always had a lot of horrible things. I mean, I'm trying to figure out how you figured out or where your belief comes from that we need a small amount of animal protein. You're saying historical. I mean, do you have a source? Do you have some kind of population data? Do you have... No, it's not scientifically... So it's just your opinion? Yeah, opinion, yeah. So we could throw your opinion away if we wanted to. Because it's not based on any... It's not based on any evidence. I could do the same with yours. Reminds me of opinion. Well, what if I said that's an opinion, that it's wrong to kill a pig? No, your opinion is we can only eat vegetables through a fruit and nuts. I don't trust any vegetables, but yeah, plant foods, yeah. Yeah, plant foods. We eat vegan burgers, vegan ice cream, vegan pizza, vegan hot dogs, vegan whatever you eat. I've never seen the point of that. Why not? Because, oh, okay, vegan hot dogs. I don't see the point of eating bacon. Yeah, no, that's fine. It's just something you're used to in terms of taste, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So if you can get vegan bacon, why not? Yeah, but why pretend if you're against the entire thing? We're against the murder, we're not against the taste. Okay. It's like I'm not against sex, but I'm against rape. Oh, that's, oh, that sounds, you're happy with that? No, because one is consensual and for pleasure, one is against, violates someone's rights. I'm not against eating meat, I'm against murdering animals and violating their rights to get that meat. So if we can make meat from plants or lab-grown meat, then I'm totally for it. Yeah, that's not healthy. And bacon is? I think so. And where do you derive that belief from? It's an opinion. Where did you get it? It's an opinion? It's an opinion, it's my opinion. I've got an opinion that dog is healthy too. Okay. Is that rational? Okay. Is that rational? Bacon comes from the pig, yeah? Yeah. The vegan burgers are totally made up of all weird ingredients and substances. Like what? They're processed food. Shall we pull out the ingredients? Okay. You would not find them? We'd not find them where? In nature normally. You just put it all together, so it tastes like something you're missing. Do you know that actual meat is actually made up of many different chemicals as well, just not... And they bond together to make this up? Meat is not just meat. But it's made naturally. If you break it down... It's made naturally, it's not made artificially. Arsenic's made naturally. What would I care about what's natural? Okay. Just because something is natural doesn't mean it's healthy. Yeah, it doesn't mean it's not gonna be a poison. Yeah, yeah. Now, just because they get pea protein, do you have a problem with pea protein? It's protein from peas. Processed foods are scientifically bad for them. Some processed foods are not? Not necessarily. Processed oil is actually not bad for you. And these foods? Vegetable oil. These pretend foods are processed. It's just because something's processed, it doesn't mean it's bad. They're great... Now, they're saying it now. You read it. England, we have one of the worst... So why do you... In England, we have one of the worst outs in the world. Yeah, I know you. And it's because we're a ton of processed foods. Yeah, like ultra-processed foods, I often agree. These vegan foods are ultra-processed. Can I ask you, why are you baking? Baking's a processed meat. I like it, man. I like the taste of it. Yeah, but if you care so much about health, like you're trying to justify killing animals for health... I'm not eating bacon every day. I'm eating it once in a while. One second. You're trying to justify killing animals because vegan diets are unhealthy because of processed food? The processed pretend burgers and all that, that's unhealthy for my body. They're actually healthier than natural meat. Because in the swap meat randomized crossover trial, the plant-based meats had better health outcomes, especially heart-held than natural meat, right? So there's actually data to suggest that what you're saying is actually the other way around. What-based meats are healthier than natural meat? I don't think the vegan diet is unhealthy. I just think it's more complicated to have a decent diet on a vegan diet. It's no more complicated for me to plan my diet than it is for you to walk in and get bacon and beef and whatever. Like five animals and a couple dead, dairy and eggs. You do have to do a little bit, like, of looking around. But you don't care to change anyway. Oh, you don't know that. You just told me that about seven minutes ago, right? No, no, no, no. I said I didn't say I was... I'm used to eating meat. And I like it. I'm not going to stop doing it. I'm not going to change, by the way. Exactly, so I was right, see? You don't care... Do you know why I know? You know what? I was vegetarian for a few years. Not vegan, but vegetarian. You said... The reason I know, yeah, vegetarianism is not the same as veganism, but... But I actually like... Why were you vegetarian? I was doing yoga at the time. Kind of went with the philosophy of non-violence. Oh, like a hymsa? I hymsa, yeah, yeah, yeah. OK, you don't believe in non-violence any more, obviously. I believe in bacon. Which is incredibly violent, tortures the pigs. Yeah. Do you know how they're killed? No. Keep going. They don't stand. I'll give you a clue. World War II. That's... Something bomb. No? Concentration camps. I'll give you a clue. That's a big clue. Ah, the gas. Gas chambers. Really? Did they tell them they're going to the shower before? No, they trick them in, they force them in through mechanical doors and they force them into a dungeon filled with gas and they scream and bake for mercy and then you eat them. Do you think that's OK? No, it's not ideal. And is that OK, because we're superior? No, we're just superior. I'm just saying we should have a humane way of bringing out vegetables. But that's not where you get your bacon? Well, I might. There you go. Organic free-range pigs also go to the gas chamber. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but they have a bit of life. But they have a horrifying, murderous death. Yeah. Giving someone a good life doesn't justify murdering them. I think it's better than torturing them, of course. Yeah. But I still think it's bad to murder them. You don't agree? Do you agree? If you gave me a good life and shot me in the back of the head, I mean... You're a human being. Yeah. I'm not equating you with a pig. I've never said we have to equate us, but we can compare each other. We both have a sentient conscious experience. Yeah. We don't have to be the same. But they're worth more than a bacon sandwich. In terms of morality, they don't want to die. I mean, you don't even think it's right to kill dogs. Because I see dogs as a pet, and I see pigs as a product. Well, I see pigs as a pet, and dogs as a product. It's a cultural thing. It's called arbitrarily selecting... arbitrarily assigning moral value not based on any rational reason. It's what's... It's what's society... They're a pet effume. It's what's... Give the s***. That's just arbitrary. I could say they matter more than them. Yeah. Let's kill him and let him live. And the Nazis actually... The Nazis... I was going to say that happens in humanity, doesn't it? The Nazis did that. Yeah, yeah. The German lives, the Jew dies, yeah? In America, blacks are enslaved, whites are not. This is arbitrarily... But all humans deserve rights, yeah? Anyway, I've got to go because I need a beer. Good work. But let's suppose you're right. I'm still not going to change my mind, but it's been a good discussion. Bless you, mate. Still think it's a religion? I think it's a political party. Is there any logic involved with this religion? Bless you, mate. Take care. So what made you stay, mate? I didn't stay. I came back. Okay, mate. If we all went and changed our diet and we all became vegan overnight, yeah? Like that? Yeah, just like that. So it's a hypothetical? Oh, absolutely. What would the world be like? The world would be a more peaceful place. There would be far less suffering in the world. The earth would start to repair because we'd be using much more land. We'd be dumping a bunch of stuff into the waters. We wouldn't be overfishing. It'd just be an all-round better place. Blessing all the land to agriculture. Yeah? So when you look at the amount of land that's used for animals, including grazing, including the crops that are fed, it's something like 77%. We could actually reduce this by, like, three-quarters if we all adopted a vegan diet worldwide, right? We could reduce the farmland, the grazing land. There's animals just eating pasture in mountainous places that you can't grow any vegetables or anything else, and nothing you can grow there. Well, we'll need less land anyway. We won't need that land. What's up, brother? You're the one who stabbed someone, isn't it? You've stabbed another human being. Why are you walking away? It's not a child though, is it? You do have a mum and a dad. One second. Are you going to cry, bro? Are you going to cry? You never had to stab someone in self-defense. You never had to stab anyone in self-defense, right? Well, good for you. You had a good life. Do you feel good? You've not threatened me, bro. No, no, no, no. You just... That's a bailed threat. You said try it. You said try it. That's what it is.