 Hei, gyda'r unig, rwy'n Steve. Rwy'n fyw yw'r bod yn dweud y bwysig yn y blaen fawr. Yn y gallwn arni, rydyn ni, mae'n bwysig. Mae'n bwysig, mae'n fawr. Fel yddech chi'n gwybod yn spennu yn gwybod, mae'n gwybod yn dweud os ymddiol. Felly, byddwch i mi. Mae'n gwybod yn ddwy'n gwybod yn fawr o gyd. Felly, mae angen i'r disgyn Cesennu. Felly, mae'n gwybod i'r disgyn Cesennu. Felly, ydych i gyd. I wan to go through very briefly I have some slides the slides are not meant to be driving things but I'm going to use them as a crutch because I won't be sure otherwise what are we doing today what should we be doing there are some plans and plots going on I'll explain and a little bit more please please we have a gobby dock please take notes put things in there try not to swear too much because it does offend some people but otherwise be open and honest if if people can take notes that will be very helpful we do want to be following up on this a lot later so what are we doing we have debion images in many clouds all of the biggest clouds are using are running thousands and thousands of debion images every day I'm told awesome we want to see lots of debion it's good we have lots of people doing their own thing there's the major cloud platforms all have their own debion images the smaller platforms do the same lots and lots of people are running debion in personal clouds the one thing that worries me slightly and again i'm going to come on to this in a moment is we have a massive amount of variation every image is different it seems there is we're not providing anything official from debion well actually we do we have one official one from debion at the moment um I want to talk through that a little bit more actually just as a show of hands who here is currently using debion in the cloud whoa who's who's again another show of hands who is running an image from somebody else who's running their own image first one so who's running an who's running a standard image provided by somebody about oh half maybe who's making their own images and about half okay that doesn't surprise me um so we have a reasonable reasonable audience here to cover this so what do we think we should be doing um I and a number of other folks think it would be awesome to have official images produced by debion for a number for a whole range of reasons um we could really really do with better supporting our users at the moment um people are not running debion debion they're running um whether it's a google debion image whether it's a microsoft debion image there might not be very much difference in there hopefully there isn't but we're not actually providing for those people directly in any way um a lot of the images out there could well be debion but actually with extra little bundles of joy attached you know whether it's trojans whether or not it's random things that will steal your data could be tracking you or whatever we honestly don't know um we'd like to provide good qa to make sure the images that people get are known to work again if the images people are running that claim to be debion don't work that doesn't reflect well well on us and I have mentioned in very in very small thing trademarks um all of this is relevant we don't want the the the debion name we don't want the trust that we've built with our users to be diluted by problems here what we're not going to do and don't get me wrong this is an majorly important thing we are absolutely not going to come down and stop people trying to use their own images this is free software we want people to do whatever the hell they want with it what we want to do is give an extra service here so what do we think an official image should be I hope none of this is controversial but but please shout if you think i'm doing things wrong if i'm talking about things that are not wanted um we in the images team and trademarks team have come up with some basic guidelines we want official debion images to be produced by debion people on debion machines does that sound good yes meddy can we get a microphone maybe we're going to write the question um do i think that's always possible um i think so can you do that for sure uh yes okay okay great i didn't make that talk today sure um i'll let martin and steve by all means expand on that a little bit later um yes yeah i'm not sure if it's fully possible for amazon cloud you can you can have two types of images one is on s3 one is on ebs on ebs you need to you can only access ebs from other amazon instances so so you need to bootstrap one image from other uh from already existing instance okay so so when we are building images for amazon with bootstrap visit we we run debion instance we attach we attach volume we route their instance up install upgrade blah blah blah then detach and then register this from everything from inside this instance so so we need to somehow bootstrap this week um anybody else on that front point no um what should the content of an official debion image be um to be debion for me it's got to be um everything's got to come from debion it needs to be from main um other people and i've i've seen examples of images like this can add all kinds of extra junk in but still claim it's debion um that that's great for their own use i don't think we should have those in an official image please nobody argue with that um what about uh if specific drivers or so on are required which come let's say from contrib that would be the case for instance for virtual box guest additions or things like that that's a good question what do you think well it's pretty it's a pretty tough question i agree because the thing is that on one hand i mean like it has been for quite a while that basically official debion is main on the other hand we don't i mean providing people with basically you're not working image or not well working image is not nice either yeah it's tough um niel wants to talk as well as is often the case okay i'll stand up so this was an issue in my term as as dpl about what is debion and trademarks and how those are linked because quite a bit of this stuff came out from cloud providers wanting to call something debion um um now i was certainly of the view um that for something to be official debion it must be produced by the project um essentially whatever that means so debion people on debion machines it needs to be produced by the project as a whole and it is very important that official debion is only debion main so nothing on contrib nothing from non-free that that's one of the key things that allows us to be a free software distribution there is then the question of what is based on debion well that's nominative so anything can be based on debion but then there's this wonderful thing in between where you have a cloud provider who adds a kernel module or a patch or in the case of a cloud provider who wants automatic security updates applied so if they change a config file a single line changing no to yes is that now still debion and so finding a way that we can help to allow cloud providers to call things debion because many of them actually want to and we should want them to because then we get the recognition of yes it's debion you can install debion on thousands of devices rather than in some large vendors cases they're basically running debion but haven't called it that they've called it something else because they can't but it's basically just the same so that's a open question and i think a lawyer would say that's a very interesting question we take payment by visa and mastercard and and however low you'd like but but one way around it is potentially for debion cd debion boot team to start help creating these so we can start pushing things towards that and that's exactly where i'm coming to yeah um what we'd like to we have a question from irc uh yeah the question from irc um is uh since images are loaded remotely is it possible to check them after installation um that depends entirely on the on the platform i believe um some of the platforms have their own tracking of checksums and whatever so you can validate exactly what you've got um it depends um it's one of the things again we want we want to try and make sure of um yeah and and the follow-up detail is uh therefore how do i know i'm getting an official debion installation that's a very good question so the second part of the contents thing is um what do we provide um do we provide a standalone stable image which is great and we can track and it just has just those things in do we provide something with some backports included if so what presumably kernels i've spoken to guys who would like to see a backport kernel would see backports of the various cloud platform tools included and that's all perfectly understandable we need to be absolutely very clear as to what changes are made in images and exactly what is provided that's i think the most important thing we have here yes sam sir i think the other really big elephant in the room is what do you do about configuration like do you provide something like cloud in it or something that you know i an official debion image that doesn't have something like cloud in it and it would be of absolute use to listen us to me yep um coming up in in a very very short moment yeah yeah no that's fine um we also have the question of do we have images with cloud included and i think the clear consensus for official images clearly we should i do people here know what cloud in it is if anybody doesn't does anybody not know what cloud in it is luca okay so cloud in it is a is a service that runs very early at boot so it can go and do the appropriate setup for your cloud platform so it can go and run the platform specific bits that you want as part of your boot process that's basically it so does what i'm going to do any of the cloud do any of the platforms need contrable non free bits um to be run from cloud in it um i'd apparently yes they do um i would hope it's minimal obviously we're not going to put those things in in the official images so i i gave up on trying to get debion onto rack space because there is an agent you need that is problematic great i tried that as well there's an agent specific from rack space because they run on zen api and then that's only for their public cloud though and the api needs an agent in in the machine okay so you know where more than i know i tried i was about to say i tried to package this agent it's not easy to do so okay it's not even easy to get a copy of the agent um the like i mean you know the they have this magic installer that runs on their images that grabs a copy of the agent and then deletes the package which um is good because if you actually take a look at the package it's so embarrassingly bad that it's kind of good that it's deleted but um it's um it is rather unfortunate the open stack even on zen has a mechanism called config drive that is entirely supported by cloud in it that would work fine um they just don't use it great i think jimmy has a question a comment at the back yeah so um as so i used to be at the at google working on their devian images and they don't have anything non-free in the guest it's entirely the fsg free but sometimes the development pace moves a little faster than um than main so we so there's no need for contributor non-free for that case but it's possible we may want to see to what extent backwards and or stable release updates could make sense during the lifetime of devian release sure ana from from speaking to guys at google guys from microsoft it's yeah they've all got similar issues about that say for example kernel drivers which are improving all the time and they want better performance or new features that are only available in the new kernels you know all those things ooh a little bit of hell um i'm leaning towards we should definitely have an official image that contains only main only stable that people can use we should also have an official image that includes small bits of backports that are that are tightly controlled um i'm tempted to call it um feel free to shout at me if you think you have a better name something like a say a jessey refresh or something which has those pieces in which will give people maybe a better experience but they will need to be aware it's not just running stable so in in that sense right um since we're discussing about what you can call devian i mean i call my laptop running devian when i have backports right and it's not demian stable if you want but i think it's fair to say jessey plus backports or whatever you want to call it and just maybe maybe stable at some point will be deprecated and not runnable on some platforms if you don't want to provide even kernels or stuff like that's that's unavoidable but if someone can install like the jessey plus back for version or stable plus i think they're going to be fine and it's still debian right it's backports are provided by devian developers so yeah i think we have broad consensus that that's reasonable yeah so if i understood if i understand correctly basically jessey refresh for instance would be basically a pure blend with some config telling it to please fetch sus bits from backport or yeah okay and then would it be then like on a uh would it be different depending on the cloud provider if it requires special bits to support it or um i'd like to not be producing multiple official images one per provider because how many providers are there um so again we're kind of evolving this i'd personally like to see maybe two three a very a very small number of possible images we should have a minimal stable only we should possibly have a stable plus backports whether we however we call that which would just be a minimal set of updates and we might provide a bigger richer image which could have a bunch of other things yet to be defined hand wave hand wave and we'll work out the exact details of that in the weeks and months to come i think does that sound sensible i think you need a per cloud image unfortunately um if for no other reason than cloud in it kind of really performs a lot better if you tell it which data sources to enable there are a couple of data sources that can introduce minutes of boot delay if you leave them enabled and um it's i've always found that i needed to at least can customize that per cloud provider if nothing else possibly my take on that would be we should provide a basic core image which it which doesn't it is not customized per platform and by all means encourage the platform providers to make that kind of change to their images they're not going to be official debian images necessarily at that point but they're still debian we're happy for that for them to call it debian does that sound reasonable no i think you want it to be possible for them to have official images on the cloud providers i mean that's that's my opinion at least okay i can give a concrete example if you enable the ec2 type of image of uh data source for cloud in it then it's going to slow down everyone else by 1 minute 30 so that's that's problematic okay is this something we consult by having the debian installer be precedible to disable enable some of these oh we're not using the install at this point i think that you know that's that's half the point these are going to be complete images that you boot directly okay so thank you for the information that that that helps um we've had other people asking should image it or how should we handle security updates so what we should be doing and i appreciate i'm i'm being quite remiss so far with this with the open stack images we should be regenerating images at the moment we get security updates to anything that's included in them um that's something that we can and will do it's just a case of doing the work we'll get to that um what do we do about security in images that are currently running so a number of people um i'm told on the platform um on the on the cloud platforms themselves would like unattended upgrades installed um by default on the images so that they don't have to worry about um running potentially no insecure software however there's tension here again of course a lot of their users don't want make you know if they have a long running instance don't want their database server to be restarted potentially without warning this is a hard question you know a hard thing to decide so meddy isn't that a wider question because uh we will have the same need on workstations on servers so it's not specific to cloud images sure absolutely um that is a very much a wider question it's something that we might want to be thinking about in this specific area right you know right here right now because of the problems which want to solve sam so regenerating the image doesn't work that great either um so at least on a lot of cloud platforms i mean opensack to some extent ec2 to a very great extent um i'm going to hard code image id's in script and deploy scripts and stuff and i probably really want the image to do a full upgrade on first boot if nothing else right so again and this comes down to you want that i'm told some people don't um how do we um how do we have that add support for both sets of users i mean that you can do with cloud in it can you think yeah it takes a question about the conference sure right um so what so when i was at google we had the similar discussion about unattended upgrades and uh i believe that for the official images we deferred to debian's preferences in this regard or what google considered official i should say but um some other clouds i think the answer depend the eventual answer depended on which distro and what all the factors were there but i think the default so you write it maybe that it is a broader question across more than just the cloud context i also think the answer might even depend on which context if you're on a physical server in africa with you know unreliable and slow and internet you don't want unattended upgrades if you're even in a physical data center not just clouds with flaky services that can't be restarted in a good order you do want uh to not restart things automatically but maybe you could do that with policy rc.d for example uh this is really a discussion that could be broad throughout debian in time for a stretch or buster but uh i as steve points out it's this question and the question of update on first boot are prompted by cloud and they'll apply more context so we need to make it a broader conversation if i'm not mistaking attended upgrade just a grade that the fix in time in the week right so what happens if you have 1000 vms deployed in your cloud and they all try to update at the same time so before installing it we might want to address that problem first yeah oh apologies if it sounds like i'm asking more questions and giving answers here that's kind of what i expected um we have a lot of discussions to go through yet um i'm talking about giving different variants of images um that seems to be a a reasonably agreed point um one of the things that we really want to do with our official it with our official images which is something that again we haven't had much of yet is good qa um we want to get automation in place so that when we produce an image we know it's good at the moment some of the images we produce we we might know it boots that's about as far as it goes um debian is normally known for being good stable solid and and well tested that there's a really big potential hole here that we need we need to fix so um we've started making plans so i mailed the cloud list quite a while ago after prompting from martin suggesting a timeline on on how we should go about this um we haven't really followed that timeline it we we were suggesting that we would try and get some official images building on our central image building box um this week um none of that's happened yet um we were talking about agreeing the test requirements for maybe september we've not had any discussion yet please let's get discussing we want to get some real images going through that testing by october november well we're not even remotely in a state to start that yet let's get going um i have been swapping quite a lot of email with zach mirano at google who you know jimmy tells me you know is a what replacement colleague something yeah um about a lot of these issues and that's what's prompted some of the some of what i'm talking about here he's not the only one don't worry we you know we want to make this work for everybody however would what he has suggested is that google would love to host a sprint um in seattle which seems to make most sense as a location for a cloud sprint as google microsoft and amazon the three biggest cloud providers are all based in seattle um and they're more than happy to host um so i'm going to be proposing that we well i'm going to be helping him to try and organize something dates to be decided sometime later this year um plis if you'd like to to go to such a thing we're going to be discussing it on the cloud list it's not just going to be for the three big cloud providers we want everybody with an interest here to turn up um and we want to get people working together to make things better here so whether that whether that is for your own personal cloud stuff whether that's for the the big service that's running millions of images a day we want everybody's input to make official demian images work well and to make and to make even what we think we don't classical official we want to make those images work well work well too um plis let's get going on that so do we have any more comments i said we've gone through the slides i said i'm not trying to drive all this totally this is for conversation from you guys bill mike i was wondering if if you wanted to do anything about the non-official images if you know if you're going to use the word debian do you need to document what's what's not standard what's you know um any changes that sort of thing or you know i presume trademark policy already covers some of this but do we want to be a little bit more formal about it or that we probably need to set a standard which was the idea of having this buff and coming out maybe with some sort of standard how an official debian image might look like and then we may talk about what's official and what's unofficial but yeah absolutely we want to go that way um for the protection of users and the protection of debian we want to make sure as a minimum people should be documenting what they're doing um the best people are already doing that the dodgy people clearly aren't going to be in that regard would it make sense for instance to recommend that uh i'm going to pick a random example but recommend that cloud provider builds um image using let's say bootstrap visit and makes a manifest available so then people can actually say okay this is actually a debian blend and this is what they have done in terms of package install and configuration that's exactly the kind of thing which it's actually executable documentation yeah the next thing that part of the discussion that we've been having over the last couple of years as well is about the exact tooling to make images i don't necessarily want to have that argument again today yeah that's why i said it's just an example sure but definitely definitely we should be getting that level of detail from people to know what tool they used exactly how they built this none of this should be hard for people you know if you're going to be doing a good job of providing cloud images they need to be reproducible they need to be verifiable we need to know what what's happened and that will solve a lot of the issues uh i think we should make sure that the official images are built all from a single source tree so that when you have a modified image you can point people to your modified git tree with all the patches you apply on top of the official ones instead of having stuff spread around random places built to build images possibly yes again it gets difficult if people are using different tools um and it we do have a lot of flexibility in this area whether you think that's a good thing or a bad thing well that is potentially a religious war any more comments yes sam one second sir i you know i i said this on the list but i still believe it the this is an area where the plethora of tools is not serving at least me as a user and and other users i've talked to well i think this is an area where this is probably the wrong forum but having a little bit of burning at the stake of one of the tools might actually serve the community and i say that as someone as an outsider who's not been involved in any of these right because i'm saying as a user this is actually kind of a bit of a problem sure so Riku hosted a session at debcov last year enumerating the different image generating tools we have in debion he got into double figures um yeah it's it is really bad um so everyone has started off scratching their own itch and of course we all understand that that's part of what we do in debion but over time we should come up with better answers and tools that can that can work and do what everybody needs is a good plan i'm not going to argue with that the slightest yes there is an xkcd cartoon about this we know um i mean we could get to the stage where we're not going to recognise things as official unless they're using the tool that we bless again i don't want to have the have the fight right here right now as to which tool we bless that's actually something that i think would be well served doing it at a sprint where people can actually demonstrate their tools and say here's why my tool is better than yours oh actually your tool does exactly what mine does but in a slightly different way maybe i could just change its config and it would do it would do what i need that's the kind of thing i'd like to get to but it's not going to happen in this room today what what i like what i would like to see either here or in the next weeks is that we come up with some sort of minimal policy how an image should look like um that we are that we can at least for a stretch then use that policy to say these images meeting this policy we are going to be calling to uh the official stretch and as a sure and that that's the the last thing i want i wanted to get to today was we've started discussing things around that policy we haven't set it in stone yet um most of what i've suggested today i think is reasonable i've not heard many arguments there are tweaks another topic which i would like we have a discussion with about is about the package list that we put in that image for example i've put a glue screen just i think because it's convenient some others may argue that teamwork is better or something like that so i'm not strongly opinionated about it and the the more input we have the better it is sure that's the kind of place i i wish we had some discussion like that on the cloud list but i've not really seen any even those being discussed much let alone agreed i recently i don't know who who follows demian cloud list i recently recently had an argument with um vagrant the the guys doing the vagrant images about the amount of additional softwares they are having in their images i would actually like to see official the minimal official images just doing the minimal installation like the base installation we do based on the debian installer so right now the vagrant images they include only the base system so it's it's essential plus standard and the virtual box variant has needs the crap that you need to run properly on virtual box but the libvert and the lxc wants them we had like half of the kde and gnome libraries in the vagrant images because of some library dependencies are they being pulled in with recommends yeah no that's a bug in uh pine entry which depends on pine entry gtk or pine entry curses so yeah we work around with that okay that's fixed so right any more comments so yes i agree it should be uh as minimum as possible but though it's uh the role of a distribution to choose some tools still somehow it's like when you show gnome then you have i don't know a g edit installed together is there some small tools that we consider good enough and small enough to fit in an image like i don't know a vim rather than just vi or i would actually argue against that in the cloud you want your images to be absolutely tiny you don't want anything installed by default and everyone uses tools whether it's Ansible or puppet or shelf to install whatever they need so the the the stock image should be tiny okay but like uh would you consider one percent increase in the size of the image uh important or like even the last percent you don't want to text editor you don't want new screen or nothing okay some other people have other ideas so the argument against that is a lot of people wanting docker or wanting images and looking at things like alpine linux it's much smaller than even the smallest debion install size absolutely matters here yeah my additional was just it's a matter of policy so the position is uh quite clear and doesn't give uh give a feeling for more people to add more tools to the stock image at some point we have to decide what's in the image and i mean not on the based on some tools specific tools just to give you an idea of figures like the current image the minimum you could have is like 400 megs at least okay so does one make makes a difference so uh i i think that if people want to have non-minimal images they can totally do that either by having building tools that that support stacking of images or you just build your own image which includes your favorite editor and screen or t-max and whatever random other things you want but the kind of base minimal image should just be exactly that it shouldn't include all the nifty tools because i know that if i were to do that i mean my selection of nifty tools would be different to your selection and then suddenly your image is at 3.5 gigs yeah it's a lot of this is personal choice and actually you pay per megabyte or gigabyte for the image you use so i i don't think the image i think the image size is a bit of red herring to some extent um what i think is more important and is an easier policy to to use to decide this is looking at the security footprint and looking at what's there i i want something to be minimal not necessarily because i'm hugely concerned about the per gigabyte cost whether that can become an issue with enough instances but much sooner the overall system complexity becomes an image and i don't want parts running around that i don't need um i will say that there's a i want to you know make sure people are aware of the flip side is that this does mean that someone's um that you are probably going to see people who who have a lot of us the same type of an instance um you know cloning images and stacking some stuff on them and and basically saving that as its own image um but all the cloud providers make it pretty easy to do that because it's a common task yeah lot in again just a stupid question dsa is running sir their own um images cloud images as well on the ghaneti installation so are we going to tell uh to call them also official debian images based on the um installation procedure how we can currently build those images that's up to you guys so we need to register them with the cloud team as well maybe so i think we've got some consensus um what i'm going to do because we're getting white to the end of this at the time we've got now no i'm being now i'm being corrected by the video team um i am going to say anyway i will do my usual thing that i do with any sessions i run i will be waiting up a summary of what of what was said here um and it will go to the cloud list and whatever please pick holes in what's in there i am fallible but i'm hoping to try and provide a good summary so everybody is aware whether they were here or not um the next steps are we should should try and organise the sprint that i've mentioned um i'm hoping the dpl will approve a nice big sprint so we get lots of good stuff i'm getting nodding good um and we will try and thrash out um the rules for what we consider to be official images in the coming weeks obviously as we're getting towards the freeze we can't let that go on too long and for the people who are producing images this is really really important they want to have clear rules that they can follow um so please join in on the cloud list and let's let's let's get that sorted out do we have any more comments or questions from out from outside the room uh yes there is uh the comment is the minimal deviant image should be about what is required to run out to get and i suspect the implication is um that works for me ssh uh yes what we want to let people get in as well true i think most people would agree it's about the one extra package you do want installed on your image by default i'm okay with that yeah i would actually say as long as you have a way on whatever platform you're using you don't want ssh installed by default because whoever actually wants it can use it and install it everybody who doesn't want it has a hard time removing it if it's in the default image no it's easy to remove and that said very few of the cloud providers unlike say some of the virtual private server providers but in the public cloud providers very few of them have a good interactive uh console way of getting in especially in an automated fashion so uh unless you customize the image first of course to reply to i already forgot who said that it's actually pretty hard to remove ssh well you basically can put some configuration in cloud in it to uninstall it on the very first boot okay it will have started for a very short time the very first phase yeah so um i think that if you do it in the there are two phases of cloud in it and i think the first phase will run before ssh starts and you can i believe you can run a command in that phase that would remove it um am i wrong i heard a no but um i think it is possible to remove it before it starts actually when we actually like network access inside the image probably some sort of so it might depend on whether we go with a single image versus a cloud based per cloud that might be the first thing to decide because there are you know i think there should be a way to leave it open so if there's a good business case that we can add a package if it really does help the user for that particular cloud and i'm speaking as a guy who usually gets the on-call things and stay up all night trying to solve problems and images so you know it usually comes to us and you know some sev too because they did something stupid that we didn't expect and we could make all these sev twos go away forever if we just had that one last saying or did that one will tweak that it would be benefit everybody yeah we're not looking things down today yeah just to say on the topic of the content of the image uh do we have the consensus that what is put in by the debilist other by default should also be the default in the image for example i switch from cistlin wait for example i switch from cistlinx to grub because a lot of people told me this is grub that everybody uses and that is installed by default and is that is that really relevant is that the reason why you should use grub and not cistlinx i think the reason that group works out of the box on most platforms and cistlinx somebody sometimes it doesn't work for the back the main reason to switch to grub is because the integration with cistlinx is incomplete when you install a new kernel it doesn't register itself no no i don't know okay but the original report said that it's because another argument to pick tools that are basically what dibion installer install is also that if you call your image dibion you might want not to surprise users too much i guess and i mean if we are talking about things that are not installed or not installing things let's say saying okay we don't want to have packages that have priority standards or not all of them that might be one thing but saying okay we want a different bootloader is kind of complete in my opinion kind of problematic because then we are telling all dibion users oh actually if you use dibion on the cloud then you have to learn that we do it differently there and it's not very nice okay then then in such case you want nano editor to be installed by default in the cloud image because that's you would surprise a user because then who is there by default nobody this is something can go on and on i mean i said potential flame would we would be agree with something being called official if it was using cistlinx instead of system d so yeah okay so i think that we should have two i think that the policy for what it takes to be official uh or for what it takes for something to be called official can be different from what we choose to produce and i think that there really is very little that should be in the whether it can be called official beyond what you had on your slides that you know produced on debion machines by debion people um from debion main um i'm not sure and i think those are the primary things for whether it's official and i'd say that we want to call as much official that meets those requirements as we can the second the um the question of which images we choose to produce i think is a lot more narrow agreed i think we should try to make a good tool that that the users can easily create their own image with all the package they want to have or do not want to have in it and i think it's not that important to discuss what are the official images i think for me an official cloud image would be if i just want to give it a try for the first time to make a cloud installation or to start a debion thing in the cloud but if i want to deploy debion on like hundreds or thousands of machines i would expect that there's a senior admin that knows what he wants to have in this image and then we need a very good tool to create this image there's a good call both ways i think we're just running out of time so i'll respond to that that absolutely there need to be good tools and i believe a lot of platform folks already have tools so do we um the argument for the official images is that those are a very good base for the people who frankly don't care who don't know that much they just want to take an image that they know will work and will have a guaranteed stable reliable set of you know setup that's what the official images are for and obviously you as a dd you know so much about the system you know you absolutely will want to tell your images we fully expect that it's quite startling though to see the percentage of people who won't they just want a bog standard image that will work and it's those people who we really want to try and support with the official images exactly it's a trusted place that where people can start with that yeah we're out of time thank you everybody for turning up and i will thank you in advance i'm presuming please turn up on the cloud list as we discuss this further this is just another start to try and get this properly worked out as i said i'll be sending out a summary please keep involved in the conversation that's the important thing thank you for coming