 All right. Thank you very much. We've organized a panel here to look at the role of the private sector in delivering green growth. And the objective of the panel is to analyze how business can profit from sustainable practices and assess the potential for private sector to lead the way in promoting sustainable investments. Discussion is an opportunity for panelists to contribute to some of the final outcomes of the summit. And we look for outcomes with respect to sustainable landscapes with respect to supporting research, to supporting investments, and continued multi-stakeholder dialogues around sustainable landscapes. I'd like to introduce the panelists for this afternoon. We have Ada Greenberry, who's the managing director for sustainability and stakeholder engagement at Asia Pulp and Paper. We have Ben Ridley, who is the head of sustainability affairs for Asia Pacific Credit Suisse. We have Glenn Hurwitz, sitting next to him, who's managing director for Climate Advisors. We have Mauricio Amore, who's the executive director for Monsanto, Indonesia. We have Tina Lawton, who's the regional director for Sinjenta, Asia Pacific. And finally, Felia Salim, who's the vice president and director of BNI here in Indonesia. And so what I'm going to do is ask each one of the panelists to give us a two or three-minute introduction to what their company is doing with respect to delivering green growth and how that relates to the landscapes and land use sector. And then we'll go into a question and answer period, and then open the floor for discussion. Okay, so Ada, if you'd like to... Yeah, just go there. Sure. The session now could not be more of a topical subject for myself and also for Asia Pulp and Paper Group, where I'm working for. I'm sure you all know about our zero deforestation policy that we announced in February last year. And just last week, we also announced a very far-reaching and ambitious forest conservation and restoration initiative to be attempted by any company as far as I know. One million hectares of forest protection and restoration initiative in Sumatra and Kalimantan in Indonesia. To put this into context, this is an area of 13 times the size of Jakarta. So how is this relevant to our topic today about green growth? To this, I would say that the private sector has to be the key driver, the catalyst, if you like, of green growth. There are several reasons why I think this is so. It can move quicker than some other stakeholders. It has landscapes in its supply chain. It has manpower, and it has capital to invest, including in the capacity building. But above all, it has an incentive. And what is that incentive? Mainly, it is the other private sector players further down the supply chain. Those who apply pressure through their green procurement policies, who see forest conservation as an absolute prerequisite of doing business and whose consumers demand it. The role of the consumers cannot be underestimated here. The consumer plays a very big role in reshaping the supply chains. But the private sector cannot be the only participant. Its role may well to be the kick-start of things, but beyond that, it must work with the governments and other stakeholders to bring together of all various players whose skills are needed and whose interest must be served if profitable enterprise is to sit comfortably alongside the sustainable forest management and habitat conservation. Government, conservation NGOs, civil society, communities, scientists, managers, finance experts, all these and more are needed to sit around the table. I read that the key outcomes that you seek from these sessions are the endorsement of the landscape approach and commitments on sustainable landscape research in investment in them and multistakeholder dialogue. I've been talking about landscape approach for over a year by now, and we have been designing our sustainability strategy based on landscape approach. I can tell you that the first one, the landscape approach, is an absolute for us. This is at the heart of our forest conservation policy and the 1 million hectare restoration pledge. It cannot be done without the whole landscape approach. Land cannot be effectively protected or restored in isolation because neighbouring areas have a significant impact on any given concession. And this cannot be done without knowledge, research and understanding of the incredibly complex functioning of forest. We have moved a long way already in this with my company, Asia Palpin paper, but there is a lot more to do. And yes, it costs money. I'm not in the position right now to give you the precise figure, but believe me, it's not cheap. Having said that, it is an investment in the real sense of the word because of the anticipated return. The return takes the form of the long-term protection of our own investment in public plantations. Also, we want to continue to produce paper in 50 or 100 years time, but unless we do solve the problem of deforestation now, then this will not be possible. There is no greater incentive than that. The market's role is to recognise and reward those businesses that take ambitious steps in this direction. This has an additional benefit that it encourages others to join in. This is effective competition. And that is what green growth is really all about for us. Achieving a financial return on investment at the same time as achieving a return on investment for the environment, and in particular, the natural asset that is our forests. Thank you. Next, I'd like to give the floor to Ben Ridley. Thank you. You can do it here. You can hear me. I feel a little bit like Madonna. I'm not sure if I look like Madonna or not, but is that better? Okay. Mark's my senior in the business, so he's filling me in line. Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. Very warm welcome to you. There's just a few things that I would mention. I don't know how familiar you are with banking. I joined Credit Suisse about five years ago from an environmental consulting background, and banks are very large organisms, very large ecosystems. Our own operational footprint is really relatively straightforward. It's our energy consumption. It's our paper consumption. So we take care of those aspects. I think where banks are seen as being impactful is indirectly through the activities of our clients. And there are three areas where I think we do have an impact where we can have a positive impact. Mark has already touched upon these as well. One is on the dialogue side. We work down and across just about every supply chain on the planet as an industry, not necessarily Credit Suisse, but we are everywhere, kind of omnipresent in a sense. I'll give you an example in terms of the dialogue. We were involved with RSPO, very particular to this topic in this summit. We became members a few years ago because we'd like to be engaged in the dialogue. We think that is a very important dialogue to have. It's a good opportunity for us to meet and understand broader stakeholder expectations from the NGO community. We know that these issues are important for our clients in the old palm sector, so the dialogue is one piece. The other area is research. Just do a little pitch for this. We do research into all sorts of topics. This is a private sector conservation finance paper that we produced earlier this year. This is one example. It's something which I'd encourage you to look at. We did have some hard copies. We do have soft copies on the internet so you can download and get a feel for the size of the private sector market opportunity in the space of conservation finance and ultimately in terms of products and services for our clients. The idea would be that something of this nature, this kind of research would lead to a financial product, conservation finance product. These are some of the things that we are working on. We have all sorts of responsible investment products and services in the bank, microfinance. We are involved in green bond initiatives. There's an awful lot that banks do and can do. I'll just leave those with some opening remarks. Thank you. Next I'd like to give the floor to Glenn Hurwitz. Great to be here. I work with climate advisors just by way of introduction. We're a mission-driven consulting organization. We work with governments, nonprofits, and philanthropies to deliver the low carbon economy. A major portion of our work focuses on transforming the world's agricultural and commodity markets to break the link between agricultural production and deforestation. And within the Southeast Asian context I like to think of our work as how we can drive the creation of what we call green tiger economies. These are economies in which conservation of forests and other natural resources actually drives growth for countries like Indonesia and Malaysia that have historically seen very high levels of deforestation and attendant pollution and other degradation of natural resources. We think that this region is really at a moment of truth right now. And there's both environmental reasons for that but also really powerful economic reasons. We look at what has happened in Brazil as a real model where civil society around the world drove major agricultural traders to demand that producers change the way they do business so that they were producing agricultural commodities on a large scale without any deforestation. That led to a 75% decline in deforestation and now global consumer companies, global financiers are increasingly looking at Brazil as a responsible option for investment. That has the potential to put Southeast Asian economies at a real disadvantage. If Southeast Asia is associated with deforestation, peatland clearance, and human rights abuse it's going to be hard to compete. The good news and this is something that we've been involved in is that increasingly private sector companies in Southeast Asia are actually stepping up and leading the way towards no deforestation, no peat, and no exploitation production. It's been incredibly exciting to see companies like Golden Agri Resources, Asia Pulvin Paper, and one that we've been very involved with, Wilmar International, really take the lead to adopt comprehensive policies. In the case of Wilmar, their company that controls 45% of the global palm oil trade, they're also major soybean importer into China and one of the world's biggest sugar companies. You can either be a green tiger and compete in the global marketplace or you can get cut off from market access and access to capital. And these are the rules that I think are going to define the region's economy as we go forward. Thank you. Mauricio? Mauricio Horowitz? Oh, Mauricio, oh, Mauricio. Okay, so good afternoon. I'm Mauricio Amore and I represent Ponsanto. And just grateful to be here and thankful that we have the opportunity to share a little bit about what we're trying to do to help sustainability and deforestation as well. So, Ponsanto is a sustainable agricultural innovation company and our main objective is to produce more, conserve more and get a better level of life to our farmers. We put a significant amount of effort in working for farmers and ensuring that all the research and development that we do on a regular basis is focused on these three things. And when we're talking about conserving more and producing more, really it's all about helping farmers yield more in the same plot. We're probably all aware that to reduce deforestation, one of the things we need to do is we need to ensure that on the current level of lands of agriculture that we have today, we need to produce more because there's a significant amount of more people in the world day by day. And we do that through innovation, technology, and obviously as well as partnerships with other stakeholders that can help us bring these new tools to farmers. We also committed to partnering. We're very aware that our technologies will help the farmers, but we're also aware that we cannot do it alone. So we need to partner with different stakeholders around the world to help ensure that farmers in every space get access to these technologies and are able to learn from them and implement. And those partnerships are key in delivering and being able to show how these technologies reduce the carbon footprint. So that's pretty much what Monsanto is working on and what we're doing. And I think any questions that will come in the panel right away, we can answer. Thank you. Next, I'd like to give the floor to Tatina Lawton. First of all, thank you very much for the opportunity to share a few thoughts with you today. In order to do so, I'd like to reflect on this beautiful picture behind me to perhaps exemplify the collective challenge before us. To grow more food using fewer resources whilst protecting nature and improving the livelihoods of rural communities is, in fact, our collective challenge. Today we have heard from many advocates who see the need and believe in the requirement to balance the need for increasing productivity as well as enabling preservation through sustainable practices that raise the livelihoods of rural communities. Green growth to Syngenta means being able to achieve sustainable increases in agricultural productivity. And we believe that the private sector, both as a contributor and a collaborator, has a key role to play. Our philosophy is best depicted through our good growth plan, where we have made six commitments in a real difference that as we approach these challenges, we as Syngenta will make together with our partners to the year 2020. The three that I would like to highlight today are the following. The first is around empowering smallholders, raising the productivity by at least half of 20 million smallholders between today and 2020. The second, again a theme that has resonated today, is around sustainable improvement in biodiversity, particularly reclaiming land on the brink of degradation to the order of 10 million hectares. The third commitment I would like to highlight is around making crops 20% more efficient, but whilst using less land and our resources far more efficiently. Green is not about stopping agriculture. Green growth is about sustainable agriculture using resources more efficiently through investment, modern technologies and knowledge transfer. And it can be done effectively only by looking across the value chain and seeing private government and non-government organizations working together to make a real difference. Thank you very much. And I'd like to now invite Felia Sunim to make her comments. Good afternoon. Thank you for inviting me to share with you Bangladesh Indonesia's challenges and actually opportunities. It's been a long road to arrive to the stage where we can pride ourselves as showing our commitment about sustainability. Obviously, it took us more than almost a decade to have measures that we can introduce and mainstream into the bank. Starting with signing up for UNEPFI some eight years ago. We now have in our system some measures with regards to environmental and social risk assessment criteria that is mainstream in the way we look at and assess credit. So we have that internally. And we take that very seriously and train all our account officers to look at credit process in addition to the standard credit process. We have the environmental and social risk assessment criteria. But we all also look at two other measures that is available. And what are the implementing regulation if at all available? Industry by industry. We are very much industry focused and industries such as in the agribusiness and forestry and energy. They all have to an extent significant guidelines whether or not they are being effectively implemented to date that still needs to be assessed further. However, it has given us a clear guideline for our officers. Of course, we would like to see a more quantifiable roadmap when we talk about reducing carbon emission. The number of 26% has been in the back of our mind or 41% with international cooperation to reduce it. But I have yet to see a quantifiable, not necessarily precise, arrange where we both in this forum specifically can say that we are progressing. I'm still wondering where those joint agreement to reduce the carbon emission. We have a lot of tools, how to, a lot of industry players now assisting in advising, auditing, but yet I'm still lacking, I'm still wondering a common vision, a commitment of what are those targets should be in the next five years, let's say. But even without those clear, clearly defined agreements on how many, how much we should be reducing, we still are in the business of risk mitigation and not risk avoidance because the green economy, sustainability measures, it's mainstream. It's the mainstream idea. We don't have to be convinced. We are completely convinced that for the long term sustainability of business, sustainability criteria makes a lot of business sense. Therefore, we're taking the environmental self risk assessment very seriously. And then we also, we also now are closely watching what the men are doing in El Ha. The environmental ministry, they have come up with proper and yet another tool of rating system since 2010, I believe. Today there's, as I understand in Indonesia, about 1,500 companies that sign up for proper, a testing ground to learn about how to implement sustainability into their operation. From those 1,500, a significant number are in fact our client base and I'm happy to see that there are improvements from 2011 from 72% that has passed at least the blue and green. It has now increased to 92% that complies. So those, perhaps are already those willing, those 1,500 are those companies that are serious. So it is quite possible. And in fact, they are the most profitable companies that we finance. But these are mostly the large companies. The question's always about the cost, the cost to implement all these sustainability measures, having independent assessments, having auditors to assist in this drive. Therefore, I would like to seek participants, players, and perhaps also government policies to incentivize some of the other segments, not the large corporations, but the medium size businesses that are moving to small. I'm very encouraged also that some of the global supply chain drivers, the likes of Unilever and the companies you mentioned earlier, are also driving all the other segments in the same direction. But very often these small to medium sized businesses are left to them. Hence, it's a very slow progress. Countries like Indonesia, a very decentralized government has its institutional challenges in the regions. This is something that us bankers, we know it very carefully. Because most of our forestry or agribusiness that we finance are all in the regions. And for example, the RSPO, they met the RSPO or they met, they meet the ISPO. From the Indonesian standpoint, ISPO is going to become a requirement, whereas RSPO is left voluntary. Let market decide. Perhaps to strike a little bit of both helps, making it somewhat a requirement, but assisting them to grow accordingly. That is perhaps not the role of a bank. We are intermediaries, but we can certainly play a significant role in pushing this process. Because as I said earlier, it does make economic sense. When it's a lot simpler to work with the large companies, our challenge internally is to implement the environmental self risk assessment for the small and medium sized businesses. For the small businesses, for example, we have the corporate community responsibility guidelines embedded in it are sustainability measures and so forth and so forth. Assisting the companies going up the value chain ladder, which includes a learning process to improve in their sustainability criteria so that their businesses is a profitable and sustainable one. These are just some of the points I would like to raise. Thank you. Thank you very much. So I'd like to follow up on some of these ideas and maybe perhaps begin with you, Ada. Your company has made some significant commitments to stopping deforestation, to rehabilitating the greater lands. You have a lot of support from the international NGO community. It's seen as an example in the industry. Across Indonesia, there's been a deficit in planting area. In 2008, there were already 5 million cubic meters shortfall in wood supply to meet mill needs. That is expected to grow with increasing demand and with increasing mill capacity in the country to about 30 million cubic meters a year. Across the industry, the plantations are suffering challenges associated with pests and diseases. You have problems with the Acacia Mongeum, a problem with Acacia Acrasacarpa. Plantations are being harvested early. Can your company meet demands and can we expect the industry to meet demands from plantations? What can be done to improve the sustainability? Is it going to bring in the question, your ability to meet your targets? What are you doing about it? What lessons are you learning that could be applied to your own company but also applied more widely across the industry to ensure that supply to the mills is meeting the demand of the mills? There's a lot of questions. I don't even remember where you asked. Can your supply meet your demand? Are you going to meet your sustainability requirements? The short answer about how to increase our productivity and meeting the demand is basically lies on the technology and the science and how we improve our silphi culture in the ground. You're absolutely correct that global paper demand actually increased by 2.1% every year if I'm not mistaken. The global paper demand right now is about 390 million tonnes per annum and by next year it's going to be 490 or something like that. It's a huge increase by 2.1% every year. How are we going to do it? 490 by 2020. It's no coincidence that we launch our sustainability roadmap 2020 in 2012 before we launch our zero deforestation policy because we need to really map out our plan on how to be truly sustainable by 2020, by truly reliable on a sustainable plantation as raw material. In fact, just a couple of weeks ago we processed the last lock from natural forest in our supply chains which our supplier fell before February 2013, the last natural forest lock. We are not going to process any more natural forest lock. We are very confident in meeting the 2020 demand of 490 million tonnes by following our sustainability roadmap. We have engaged quite a lot of independent access source experts in growth and yield and also plantation experts to measure whether we have enough yield, growth and yield or not in our plantations and our supplier's plantations. We found that we still have potential for a very substantial yield increase as well. We see the potential to increase the mean annual increments, so it's basically an increment of how many tonnes per hectare per year plantations actually create. Also we see opportunity to reduce wood loss. We also have opportunity to improve the popping technology to make it more efficient of optimizing the fibre use. And also we see an opportunity to also mentor other suppliers as you probably aware that we do have our own concessions versus independent concessions. So we use this opportunity to share knowledge, to share management knowledge and also silphiculture knowledge as well as mentoring their performance to make sure that their performance is at par with our own policy and also our own concession. As far as disease control, this goes really well with our zero deforestation and restoration policy. We are using natural forest corridors and buffer zones to make sure that we can control disease outbreaks. We use them as the buffer to stop the disease outbreaks to go to the next plantation. And secondly, we also rely on more than one species. We actually now have three species in our plantations. It's acacia acrosicapa, acacia mangem, and eucalyptus pelita from so many different variants. So then we can further mitigate the risk for disease. And you're probably aware that part of our zero deforestation commitment, we also pledge to protect forested peatland and also sustainable peatland management. Again, it's also a part of the strategy to mitigate forest fires as well in the future that's in protecting our investment in our plantation. So my in a nutshell, my answer is basically increasing productivity to meet the global paper demand will only work if we also implement zero deforestation policy and also our further plan to restore the three of us can are very incredibly very linked to each other, but in the certain extent also quite dependent from each other. So that's a nutshell of my answer to your question. But the point was that your productivity is actually decreasing because you're harvesting your plantations at three or four years instead of seven years. So you're not getting the wood yield out of your plantations. So if you're having a productivity decrease, how are you going to meet the increasing demand? No, actually we're harvesting our plantations right now on average with based on five years rotation, not three to four years. Even on the peatlands with the root rot problem? Yeah, root rot is actually affecting Acacia main gym not so much on the on the peatland. So we are still sticking on the five years rotation harvest. You should visit our plantations. Yeah, you have to. Okay, thank you very much. I'd like to maybe ask Ben some questions about some of the international investment dimension of things. You know international investments are driving part of the land conversion that we see here in southeast Asia. And so I'd like to ask what are the safeguards that you put into your investment policy? What sort of due diligence do you do? Could you describe a bit the procedures that you go through? How do you verify if you're doing some due diligence ahead of time? How do you verify that the companies are sticking to their business plans and meeting their commitments? And if you run into a problem, what do you do about it? Okay, thanks very much for the questions. So we've had a global forestry and agribusiness policy in place at Credit Swiss for five years thereabouts. It sets really the framework of our commitments. It's very complementary as well to our reputational risk policy which is a bit more of an umbrella risk management policy. And more importantly I think that any policy is the mechanisms which underpin it and the capacity, the human capacity, the system, the procedures. So in terms of the referral process internally, first of all, we have a number of gatekeeper functions. So we have client ID, we have other KYC, know your customer functions, we have people in credit risk, we have a plethora of different control gatekeeper functions within the organization. And at the point of a particular transactional relationship they will catch this and they'll refer it across to the sustainability desk. We will look at a transaction via the requirements of a forestry policy. So it's a bit of a dry matter but you can look on our website if you really want to know what's in our forestry policy. But no conversion of high conservation value forest, that includes all primary forest. Our sort of oil palm position is consistent with the PNC of RSPO. We do initial screening and an important point to mention here is that a lot of the business that we do is repeat business. So you know we don't often get into situations with a client around which we don't already have quite a portfolio of information. So we do due diligence through an initial screening. We use Swiss based service provider RepRisk. We use other tools, MSCI screening just to get an idea. It doesn't make us lead to a decision as to levels of comfort with a particular transaction at that point. It gives us an indication and we also know very much for emerging market economies the absence of information. It doesn't mean that there's no issues, it just means there's no information. So we also maintain relationships with NGOs and to the extent to which we can't talk about client confidentiality issues. But we have a number of ways of getting information on a project. What we're then interested in is at the asset level, the location is everything, very, very critical. We sort of run the screening. We can make a kind of best judgment at that point as to levels of comfort. But then we get into the due diligence directly with the company. And we don't have a template approach. We're interested in what I call the four C's. The commitment of the company, what are their internal controls? What kind of capacity do they have in terms of human resourcing, in terms of staffing, in terms of the expertise? What kind of systems and procedures do they have to translate that commitment? The capacity piece is critical. It's by far the most important part. Then we're looking for the credibility. What sort of performance indicators do they have? What kind of story can they share with us? And we will look at that. And then ultimately the fourth C would be the communications. So we're looking for this whole cycle. If we feel the need to bring in a third party consultant, then we would do so. We wouldn't do it in all cases. Again, we may do quite a lot of repeat business with the same clients or the same sorts of clients or the same sorts of locations. So we'll already have quite a good knowledge base on the issues at a provincial level, a regency level, for example, in a country like Indonesia. We do just to touch perhaps on oil palm as an example. We do have particular requirements as an RSPO member ourselves. We're required our clients are RSPO or that they commit to becoming RSPO members. We think this is quite easy. We might get a little resistance at that point, but becoming a member is relatively straightforward. There's not much of a benchmark to entry. We require over time as well that our clients will develop a roadmap towards certification. This is more important. We do have situations where clients have then come to us and say, look, we don't quite know what to do on this. So we can also push that risk into a bit of an opportunity space as well. We can work with a consultant who we would engage. We would help to write the scope of work for the consultant who would then go and provide that service to us, but also to a client. So that's the kind of framework using oil palm as an example. And so do you have cases where companies back away or back out of the, they don't go for certification or they say, we know we committed to this, but we've decided it's too much for us. We're not going to do it. Does that put in jeopardy your investment in that company or does it trigger anything with you? Is it a breach of agreement or something? We do have these requirements in contractual arrangements. Without getting into the specifics, we have had situations where a client has said, we can't do this. Maybe because the reasons I couldn't get into. They know our requirement. Sometimes we need to be a little bit flexible in terms of understanding why not. As a priority, rather than disengage with a client, we'd like to engage and understand because quite often it comes down again to the capacity issue. So we also need to be quite careful that we are not putting unrealistic expectations in a short-term horizon onto a client that simply doesn't have the capacity. But we have had clients who we felt they just can't get there. And in cases, we haven't been able to proceed with the business. Just a final question. Are these lessons more broadly applicable or is it a large bank like Credit Suisse that can implement this? Or can some of the smaller banks implement these types of sustainability? Can they work with smaller or medium-sized enterprises to implement these types of sustainability applications? What are the big lessons that you're learning that are more broadly applicable across the industry? That's a good question. Credit Suisse is a private sector financial institution, so we don't generally deal with small businesses. So there's a certain scale which is relevant to an international bank. The challenge on the capacity, though, is a very important one. So the larger clients that we deal with, they would already have the basis of this capacity. I think for some of the SMEs, this is going to become straight away a challenge, I think inevitably. I think also for some of the local and the regional banks, they will also have the capacity challenges. You know, I can knock up a good forestry policy for you in 30 minutes. It's the capacity piece. It's who owns it. Where's the accountability? What mechanisms do you have in place to start delivering on that? And I would almost say policy is policy. It's nice, but you've got to get beyond policy for it to really mean anything. I would say also just using RSPO as an example, it's still a relatively small number of private sector financial institutions that are members of RSPO. We do have an ambition to get more local regional banks involved and where they don't have the capacity and we understand that could be the case, we'd like to lend them our capacity because we'd like to encourage and to make the environment as conducive as possible for them to start to engage and then they can start to spread the message with their clients. So, you know, the opportunity is great. I think, you know, the risks are clear, but there's increasingly an opportunity and we think the time is now to try and leverage on this. Thank you. Glenn, I'd like to follow up on some points with you. You talk about delinking productivity at or delinking agricultural productivity in deforestation and in recent years more and more companies are joining these pledges for sustainability and zero deforestation and things like that. Could you maybe comment on this point that we were just beginning to address, what is the opportunity for small and medium-sized enterprises to get involved? There's only really the big players that can get involved in these types of things and, you know, have you been advising small and medium-sized enterprises and what sorts of steps can these enterprises begin to take towards these sustainability? Well, I think to be, you know, to be certain a lot of the progress has started with the big companies and we should also say there's a lot, there remains a huge amount of need for big companies to take action. You know, I think we've seen since the Wilmar announcement about a dozen major consumer companies have announced no deforestation commitments and that's great and I think that's driving change down the supply chain including to small and medium enterprises and to small holders. You know, when we look at what's happening with Wilmar's implementation, they have more than 400 suppliers. Some of them are really big companies and some of them are significantly smaller and they have a lot of small holders in their supply chain which is pretty common amongst palm oil companies as well as others. One of the positive things about having a company like that that's so committed to realizing their commitment is that they have really become an extension service to spread no deforestation commitments down the supply chain. It requires going out into the field meeting with literally hundreds of suppliers talking them through it. They've been working with the Forest Trust to implement the agreement and they're able to bring expertise to those companies that can help. One of the things that's been really great to have both with Wilmar and a lot of the other private sector commitments, the Norwegian government has been very supportive of Indonesia in particular transition away from deforestation as an economic model and they've been offering to provide technical support and also other incentives to help small holders in particular transition to deforestation free production. One area that we've focused on and just to get back to Ben's point is we have, you know, I think there has been incredible progress at the trader level. There's more that needs to happen with companies like IOI, Lotus Croclon and Bungie and as a result through the supply chain, through producers, you're starting to see progress, there's great progress at the consumer level. We found that the financial sector is really lagging in terms of its commitment to make finance more sustainable. So there is some change happening there though and what we've tried to do and this is through our chain reaction research project is we're providing very in-depth information on sustainability performance of specific palm oil and pulp and paper producers, to investors, to analysts, based on our network of researchers on the ground in Southeast Asia and elsewhere, as well as satellite analysis. And we're getting a really positive feedback from banks and others because they frankly, either don't have the capacity or in some cases don't have the interest to go and ask the questions. They rely a lot on what the companies are telling them so there's a lot of self-reporting and they also rely in our view excessively on certification, particularly in the case of the RSPO which unfortunately has rejected efforts by its members to make sure that it doesn't certify destruction of high-carbon stock forests or peatlands. And so one of the things that's been happening in the industry is that you're seeing, you know, I think banks and financial institutions really want to have certification as a benchmark and a kind of check-off and it can be really helpful. Unfortunately in tropical forests in Southeast Asia, some of the certification bodies just frankly aren't working. They aren't delivering the values that or the reputational guarantees that financial institutions are seeking. And as a result, it is requiring a sort of, you know, a new means of delivering those values and specifically doing due diligence. So, you know, we're trying to address that through the chain reaction research project but it also requires cooperation of banks and, you know, we are seeing some of them start to go to their supply, to their clients and say, we're not going to provide financial services unless you meet these benchmarks. BNP Paribas has been a leader in this regard and has actually some of the recent commitments have come in part because BNP Paribas institutional investors around the world and others have said, you know, frankly, we're not going to invest in you. We're not going to provide financial services unless you adopt a no deforestation policy. Okay. So are there some certification processes that are working really well that can serve as a lesson for these ones that aren't delivering? You know, I think there's some that are certainly better than others. So, you know, I think FSC certified for actually, you know, it's only where it's actually certifying and manage forest is definitely stronger than RSPO. There's been some studies, you know, I think the nature conservancy has done that I saw presented earlier showing that, you know, some FSC-certified lands in Southeast Asia, you're not actually seeing significantly higher carbon stock conservation. I think what that shows is that, you know, certification can be a valuable tool to deliver on a company's values or whatever it is that they're trying to achieve, but they can't just kind of blindly rely on certification. They need to make sure, you know, do the due diligence to make sure that they can go out and find out that they're either the suppliers or their clients are actually meeting the standards that they expect. The good thing for companies at this point is that it's becoming a lot easier because you have large companies like Wilmar, like APP, like Golden Agra Resources, actually, you know, going out there quite aggressively and talking to their suppliers and providing extension service and you have institutions like TFT that it doesn't always require, you know, a huge investment of time or capital to do it. It requires a little bit, but increasingly that's the expectation that, you know, the public regulators and others have. Thank you. I'd like to move on Mauricio to talk a little bit about some of the work that you've been doing with Monsanto. I know Monsanto has a very strong corporate social responsibility set of actions that they're doing a lot of work on the ground. Can you talk a bit about how you're integrating some of these experiences into your business model? You talked about producing more and conserving more at the same time, but oftentimes producing more means conserving less because you create more economically viable or more economically lucrative land use systems that then work against conservation. Can you talk a bit about this trade-off between intensifying agriculture and making more profitable systems and this intention to increase conservation as well? Yeah. So just to give you a little bit of an idea and there's a project that we've been working in Brazil for the last couple of years, probably five years specific to your question where we have done a big effort of helping farmers to increase their yields and produce more within their fields. But yes, that obviously poses the question of now that they are more profitable. They would want to open more land in the forest. So the program and it's a program that we are starting to work here as well in Indonesia or Sumatra. But the program what it's doing is on one side is training the farmers and giving them the technological tools to provide more yields and increase their productivity. But there's also a very significant effort working both with the government and local agencies in educating the communities in terms of the value of those forests and of those areas that need to be conserved. So it's a push in both ways. It's a push in helping and supporting governments to create the right legislation going towards education and making sure those communities understand and know what's the value of maintaining those hectares of forest and then at the same time gaining the profits from their own land due to these technologies that were coming. And I guess in Brazil I can see that working fairly well. There's I mean in the Amazon there's fairly strong governance or stronger governance than we have in many places here in Southeast Asia. How much of a role is governance in controlling or not not so much controlling but maintaining that there's a rational use of land in landscapes that appropriate land uses are allocated to appropriate parts of land and how much does you as the private sector get involved with local government agencies where you're introducing these more intensive and lucrative land uses? How engaged do you get with them in as far as land use planning and regulation of land use? So I would say there's two pieces to the story. So one of the key pieces of that governance is obviously the government setting up policy that restrains and then how do they are able to control that at the local level but then on the other hand that piece of governance is also working with the government in terms of ensuring that as people are more profitable within their land and they also understand the value of conserving the forest that creates own governance you know like self-conscious in terms of not going in that direction. In terms of Indonesia the communities where we're working small farmers we're really stretching them to move from very very low yields of varietal corn probably to higher yielding products that we'll do two or three times yields and for now in the meantime while we work the next four or five years with them that will provide them income to be able to more than open for new land really get productive on their land but then you know the next challenge is going to be how we get them to stay in where they are and make productive what they really have and not go over to to the new area so it's going to be challenging I wouldn't say it's not but it's part of what we're working on it's really happening and it's a some you know it's part of the pilot test we're starting to run so that then we can do this on a bigger scale okay thank you Tina I'd like to to come back to some of your the points that you made about increasing smallholder productivity by 50% biodiversity increasing I'm sorry rehabilitation of degraded lamb it was 10 billion hectares it's quite ambitious and at 20% more efficiency with respect to crops a lot of what Sinjenta does is is increasing agricultural productivity through through rather sophisticated approaches and technologies how does this fit into Southeast Asian models where we have large farms and small very variable size farms with with the small small family farms to medium-sized enterprises and how do you ensure that smallholders don't get squeezed out in this intensification process so in terms of the variety of different customers that we work with across Southeast Asia the majority in fact would be smallholders so this very much speaks to our goal around empowering smallholders and increasing their productivity one of the very practical examples that I could share with you is is linked to rice as shown in this picture which is around our Gromor protocol which is all about equipping farmers with the right technologies to be used at the right time to get the best results so we break the crop into four very pragmatic stages and we make sure that we are able to through the appropriate education ensure that farmers are clear and confident about how to use these technologies in order to get the best results the very real aspect around this is that the improvement we can see within one season for rice farmers such as the smallholder behind us would be increases of between 20 or 30 percent in terms of yield not necessarily using any more technologies just using them better at the right time to get the best results so absolutely modern technologies make a very real difference in a smallholder farming context and we're very much committed to that in terms of ensuring smallholders don't miss out I think once you've actually increased yields one of the big challenges is who do you sell it to how are you going to actually make an incremental profit for your family as a result of having generated a higher yield and this is where I think it speaks again to collaborations across the value chain both in terms of access to markets as well as in financing opportunities that have been spoken about by some of the other panel panel today which ensure that farmers have the opportunity to access these technologies in affordable ways so financing education and access to markets are some of the key ways we make sure that smallholders don't miss out and if I could just ask a little bit I mean we know that agriculture creates a lot of offsite negative impacts nutrient loading of surface waters for example what do you do beyond the individual field to work on farming systems or farming landscapes to try and reduce some of these negative offsite impacts whether it be greenhouse gas emissions to the atmosphere through nitrous oxide or this nitrates in ground water or nutrient loading in surface waters are the things that you do at the landscape scale to work with the farmers to reduce some of these negative offsite impacts I think we do both so we work first with the individual farmers because ultimately it's pockets of land that aggregate to make major ecosystems and we make sure that we're providing together with agricultural extension services pragmatic and sustainable agricultural practices whether that's around nutrition management around water or around cropping practices so that's the first thing that we do the second is very much linked to the whole biodiversity goal so land reclamation so the more that we can do to ensure that land doesn't go out of production through poor agricultural practices and therefore that we're not encroaching on forests and other ecosystems that surround agricultural land we believe we can make a significant difference and that's our key area focused okay thank you finally I'd like to move on to to Felia Salim and ask you a bit about some of the the new banking regulation that there is here in Indonesia that recently introduced that says that banks should consider sustainable practices when giving out loans we'd like to get your experience what does this mean in practice what are financial and social environmental criteria for sustainability how do you implement it do you have criteria for sustainability do you monitor them do you do you weigh them in as you evaluate projects you just give us a little bit of an explanation what your experience is in implementing this this regulation yeah the central bank has issued a regulation about requiring sustainability but today there's no clear guideline uh it's still voluntary in nature because it doesn't give specifics and it's left to the market to to figure out what are some of those criterias in my earlier opening statement is I wish the the market players would know which measure should we should we utilize um of course we some of the larger companies is quite clear some of the global players quite clear RSPO and then there is the unilever taking a leading role in that so that guideline is quite clear but when it comes to going down the valutain ladder this is where some of the challenges we see and the the environmental social risk assessment there are broad broad guidelines that we ourselves require but that's this needs to be complemented with the actual certification criteria that say in oil and gas or in coal self-risk assessment so it's to complement so these are what we use on the larger companies obviously because they have a market to sell to they use independent assessors so that the problem is not there because it will take care of themselves because the market requires for them to to do so so that they can they can sell to the market but the challenge obviously is to get the guidelines the complementing implementing regulation for some of the smaller players the medium to smaller size players there are a lot of quite a lot of initiatives that we are engaged with some of the international agencies but then again the hurdle that we still see is that it's still a costly process that ultimately it's about incentivizing the market players to to utilize these criteria setting so I think in the medium to small size players it's still at very much at a not an infant stage but a learning process and that needs to have a clear intervention so that banks like us can include that in complement and enhance our criteria setting it has to come from the industries themselves and at this point I see value in a lot of parties including perhaps governments incentivizing so that the cost somebody needs to pay for the cost of education this is where it's perhaps needs more attention so the criteria that we implement internally can be enhanced as we progress thank you very much ladies and gentlemen we started this session a little bit late so I think we're a little squeezed for time and I've been asked to wrap this up so we're not going to be able to have time for questions I'm afraid which I think is unfortunate and disappointing but it's it's that or you go to the cocktail very late this evening so I think we're going to wrap it up I'd really like to thank all of the the private sector representatives who agreed to come on this panel and talk about the lessons that they're learning these are companies that are on the on the front lines learning the hard lessons and trying to move their industry forward I think they're there we talk very frankly about the challenges that they're facing and I really appreciate the candor and your willingness to discuss these openly and so I'd like to give them all a round of applause and thank you all very much for for the this session