 A group has called for a change in the NIS policy asking the immigration service to accept consent letters from mothers when processing passports for minors. Although their policy says either mother or father can provide a consent letter, the NIS only collects from fathers and this provides a challenge for single mothers who might not be able to access the unavailable fathers. So they're asking the Comptroller General to make it possible for the NIS to accept letters from mothers. And joining us to discuss this is Waymi Iriboshi is the founder of Vivo Foundation. Thank you so much for joining us, Waymi. A pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. Great. This is a very, very, very important conversation for all mothers not just on national TV but everywhere. And it's very important that you pointed out the fact that yes, it is recent in print that the letter can come from either the mother or the father. But then there is some form of emphasis on the father. Let me start by asking why you decided to take on this advocacy. So you know the funny thing we've actually been sitting on this campaign since last year. And this is because, you know, we've had so many stories and so many instances of the injustice that women or mothers rather have faced in trying to access passports for their children. So the Vivo Foundation is a community-based platform that supports single mothers across Nigeria. And so within the community itself, it has so many stories of women who have come forward to say, you know what, I've suffered injustice. I've been disgraced. I've been embarrassed just trying to get passports for my children. One of them, you know, his child almost lost his scholarship opportunity because she couldn't get the passport for her child. And so for me, it's like this has to stop. We can't sit down and let this continue because at the end of the day, beyond the mothers, it's the children that are involved, right? So you're stopping the lives of these children who possibly will get scholarships or even travel abroad and gain exposure that literally changes the course of their lives. So I think it's just time, you know, to begin to have this conversation. Interestingly, one would ask, and without trying to sound like a feminist rich, I'm not one. And there's nothing wrong with that. But if the tables were turned and if the rules are reversed, when the father goes with a constant letter, why do they not insist for the mother? Because of course, it takes two to make a child. And if we're going to go by what's written in letter by the NIS, then both letters should be made available. And in the case where one parent is unavailable, then they should be able to take that of the other who's available. But has this case, apart from the advocacy, has this case gone to court before? Has it ever been adjudicated upon? Yes, I think it has. I think it's currently in court, but there hasn't been any final word on it. But it has gone to court once, I think, but nothing has come out of it yet. And I think for me, that's where the injustice comes. Because I mean, even since the advocacy started, we've not had any father come forward to say, I tried to apply for a pathway for my child and I was denied, right? And I was asked to go and get a constant letter from the mother. And this is why this policy needs to be had. Because for me, any policy law system, whatever, that poses extra levels of hurdles for mothers, it has to be challenged. And that's why we're challenging this right now. Because there hasn't been, I haven't heard, and I'm looking forward to actually hearing one man who comes forward to say, you know, they asked me for a constant letter from my wife. And you know, the funny thing is, even when women provide every other thing, because it says, I mean, there are requirements, right? There are people who say, when we started the advocacy, people like, oh, go to court and get an affidavit of single motherhood. That is first of all, let's unpack that separately. But even when women go to court and get these documents and bring these documents to the immigration office, they still are not allowed to get passports for their children. So I feel like there are too many levels of, you know, the hurdles are too many. And we need to begin to unpack them, you know, so that people can move forward with their lives, because it's completely unfair, you know. In unpacking this, let's also try to, you know, strike a balance. We try to strike a balance in who shows up and, you know, if the tables return. But let's, I have had cases where fathers have called on a radio show to say, well, a woman took my children out of the country without my consent. We did not have the conversation. And I've not been able to get access to my children. Same thing for the men. We hear people say, they take their children out of the country and say, well, they're my children. I'm going to pay for this. I'm their father. I had the last say. This for many would seem that it is a cultural problem, which the MIS has also one way or the other, inculcated and brought to some level of, you know, bias towards the women. But also, I mean, mostly the women in this case. So what are you saying that with that? Because I'm thinking, if you're coming to me to, you know, advocate on stuff like that, and I'm a man who's been robbed of his children by a woman who was able to maybe use a father's name or her father's power, know somebody somewhere and they was able to get passports and take my children out of the country. How are you able to get me involved in this advocacy? And I'm sure that this is where really, this is where this rule, you know, or policy or law came from, right? Because we cannot deny the fact that, yes, indeed, there are human trafficking, you know, instances and, you know, kidnapping or whatever it is that we want to call it. But if a woman provides everything and even shows you evidence that, look, this man is alive, I'm trying to reach him. He's refusing to accept, refusing to acknowledge. There's a way we can show that, right? Because I mean, the conversation even went on on Twitter and you find people who actually screen grabbing conversations between them and the fathers of their children who are refusing to acknowledge these conversations. So if I come forward enough to show you proof, to say, look, I have tried my best to get consent from this man and he's not accepting or he's not coming forward, then I don't think it should stop anybody. Because at the end of the day, like I said, it becomes completely biased towards the mother, right? And that's what we're fighting against. We do not want a system or policy or structure that pulls any extra hurdles on mothers. So at the end of the day, yes, those instances happen, but we cannot use one instance to, you know, cover every other person's life experience and just stop everybody else and say, because we've had a couple of instances where this happens, then every other person should be following under that blanket. And we, you know, mothers should not be able to accept passports for their children. Because at the end of the day, just like you said, it's both ways, right? So it happens on the father side. It also happens on the mother side. But if I prove to you and I show to you that, look, I am trying, because this is why we get instances where people actually tell you, you know what, I went ahead and I forged a death certificate or I forged a signature just to be able to pass. Yes, these things happen. And it's just because we have hurdles like this at, you know, at the end of the day, they'll tell you it's Nigeria, anything was, but why do we have to do it in that way, when we can just ensure that people do the right things in the right way and everybody moves forward. And let's talk about in the case of absenteeism, I've sent fathers or absent mothers, you know, I've had cases where a woman just jetted and left the children behind. Same thing for the men, you know, the woman gets pregnant, he refuses to acknowledge the child, you train the child to a certain level. And then you want to send the child out of the country and then you get to a passport office and they say, well, who's the father? And you say, well, his absence, he's never been in the child's life. Again, that also is a spanner in the wind of things. Could we bring the issue of affidavit in and what weight does the affidavit carry in this instance? Well, apparently that's what the immigration office would ask you to go and do actually go to court and swear an affidavit of single parenthood. And then the issue here is, for some immigration offices, even when you do that, they still refuse and they humiliate you and refuse to give you a passport for your child. Because at the end of the day, while I even have to be the one to prove that I'm a single parent, the one who is showing up, the one who is there, who is taking care of the child, I still have to go to court, spend my time and my resources to go and swear an affidavit to show that I am taking care of my child, you know, but I bring this to you and then you still refuse. So what are we doing? Yes, what is the level of dialogue between the VIVO Foundation and the NIS at every level? Have you been able to pull through or are you even getting the attention in any in any way? Not yet. We're not getting the attention yet. The conversation is starting. Thank you to you know, plus TV for, you know, having us on this. So we're hopeful that somebody hears it and gets it to them, but we're looking forward to actually, you know, hearing from them and getting into dialogue and ensuring that for both parts, for both parties, both the fathers and the mothers at the end of the day, you know, because we're hopeful that if we move this forward for mothers and at the end of the day, the fathers who are also in this situation will also bear the benefits of this as well. So we're hopeful that the NIS will reach out to us or we'll get into some dialogue with them somehow. Because again, when you are pushing at focuses like this, it's always best to start with dialoguing with the people who are at the core of this matter, which is the NIS, whether it be at state levels and local government levels or at the federal level. But let's talk about the VIVO Foundation. How wide is your spread? The national level, are you in states? Because again, this again would, one way or the other, determine the attention that would be given to this at focus. You know, I'm not saying that this is not good, even if it starts in Lagos, but then what is the spread of the VIVO Foundation? I'm actually based in Abuja, but the VIVO Foundation is spread across Nigeria and, you know, wherever now going into Ghana. So we have community members spread across almost all the states in Nigeria. So this is not just the local thing, which is why this is a national campaign. It's not a campaign that is targeted at any NIS for a particular state. It's targeted at the entire, you know, so we're hoping that by the time we're getting to dialogue with them and get into conversations, we're able to get to the point where whatever solutions we come up with are going to be able to spread throughout, you know, all the NIS offices across the states in Nigeria. I'm most interested and I want to ask a very sexist question. How do you, as a foundation, not make this advocacy look like a feminist at focus? Because there's always that, you know, issue of, oh, this is another feminist movement. And like I said, again, there's nothing wrong with feminism or the feminist movement. But then there is also that, you know, stigma attached to anything that has feminism written all over it. Oh, they've come for the men. And is this advocacy also involving men because men are also victims of these cases of their children being taken from them with the guy in the guise of absenteeism or, you know, forging papers? Yeah, it's a very, very interesting question. Funny enough, we've had a lot of men also sign the petitions. We've had men who were raised by mothers and had to go through this experience as well. I think for me, the reason I'll say it's not a feminist campaign is because we're not, we're not focusing directly on the mothers, we're focusing on the children because the mothers can get their passports. So this is not about the mothers in that sense. It's about the children. And if you stop a child from getting a scholarship that can change a child's life, from getting access to healthcare, I'll share a story with you. There's a member of our community who had a child who was ill when she was, when he was born and had someone who was willing to sponsor a health full health check and health for the child in India. And the father of the child refused to give a consent letter until today the child hasn't been able to access that healthcare because they cannot get a passport. So this is beyond women, this is beyond mothers, this is about the children. And that's why the focus is getting passports for the children. And of course, children are male and female, right? So this is absolutely not a feminist, it's not a feminist conversation in that sense. The only reason it will seem that way is because of course, the mothers are the ones who are advancing, who are in front to see, look, I want to get a passport for my child. That's the only reason why the name of the mother is even coming up in the conversation, right? But at the end of the day, it is about the children. It's not about men or women or anything. It's the children we're focusing on. I mean, let's talk about, I'm sure that this foundation also has lawyers, whether they be male or female. Has there been anyone maybe going to the floor of the National Assembly to push for this also? Because again, if that particular phrase or that line in the NIS Act needs to be contested, then we need to go back to the lawmakers. What are the efforts that you're doing to push for this on the floor of the National Assembly? So we haven't pushed because we literally just started this campaign about three days ago, Friday, because we're trying to, we want to gather, it's not coming from the place of one or two people. So by the time you see the number of people who have signed this petition, who are also open and willing to share their experiences on the petition, if you have some time, please go back and try and read some of the comments on the petition. You'll find women who are sharing life experiences of how, of, you know, some of the situations they've been through. So we're in this place where, you know, we're trying to put the word out, we're trying to create awareness for this issue that is in existence that maybe not a lot of people know, but because, I mean, I'll give an example also because the story that we use for the campaign is the story of a woman in our community, but has refused to share her identity because of the stereotype and the stigma that comes around all of this, and all of the single motherhood, you know, and all of that. So for us, it's, we're trying to push this out as much as we can, so that there are more people who are aware of this conversation and then we'll take it forward from this. So by the time we get to the floor of the Assembly, they already know that this is something that they need to focus on. Yeah. Finally, again, what are the things that, because again, it's one thing to start an advocacy, it's another to educate the people that you are targeting this advocacy or rather advocating for or on their behalf. How much information do you have out there for women or men who are faced with this hurdle of trying to get a passport for their infant or their minors? So this is where the conversation started. It started last year from someone actually asking this question on the group to say, look, this is what I'm dealing with, this is what I'm facing. And other people are sharing their experiences of, oh, go to cut and get this, go to cut and do this, you know, get this document, you can speak to this person and see if you can jump that hurdle. So what we're trying to do is within our community, there's a lot of conversation that is already ongoing. And, you know, more people who are, of course, coming out to share their experiences and people also sharing their experiences to say, look, this is how you can avoid it or this is what you can try to do. But I think it's just been a lot of conversation around this. Like I said at the beginning, we've been sitting on this for about a year. But I feel it, we just felt like, you know, what, it's time we begin to let's push this out. And the foundation in which we're partnering with was partnered with the Vivo Foundation to actually launch this petition is a foundation that is also started by a former minister. So we're all in this together because at the end of the day, regardless, like I said, the children, we're focusing on the children. And we really do need to move this forward. Well, when we, everybody is the founder, Vivo Foundation, and that they're voting for the change in the NIS passport policy for, you know, insurance and passport to minors. I want to say thank you, Wayme. This is a very, very great thing that you're doing for both men and women. And I hope it doesn't stop here and you continue to push for this to be changed. Thank you so much for coming on the show. We appreciate it. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you. Great. Thank you. Well, that's the show tonight. We want to thank you all for participating and enjoying the conversation. But if you want to pick up on all of our previous episodes, just go to Cross TV Africa on YouTube, like, subscribe, and you will never miss any of our shows. I'm Mary Ann, and I'll see you tomorrow as we continue to talk for development. Have a good evening.