 You can now follow me on all my social media platforms to find out who my latest guest will be and don't forget to click the subscribe button and the notifications button so you're notified for when my next podcast goes live. 1988, Valentine's Day was Lynette White get murdered. That's correct, yeah. She was stabbed over 70 times. It was a bad three, four days I was in the police station, you know, and then when they're coming in they say and the girls said you stabbed the UL, the knife through her throat. You're like, oh my God, you know what I mean? You know, they're really, you know, they're going to fit me up. And I was telling the solicitors it was, they're fitting me up to it. Stuart Hutton was my solicitor and he was looking at me like the second, oh God, you know. And anyway, as he went on, they charged me. And I was on a Sunday evening and it was all they cuffed me and it was all like 40, 50 coppers there, maybe more. They all surrounded us and he just charged us with the murder. Everyone had alibis. Everyone. It didn't matter whether you had an alibi. They were, they were set. The stage was set to take you off the streets and that's all it was concentrating on. They was not interested in alibis, DNA. I, you know, my sleep is fucked up from fucking 33 years ago, you know. I don't sleep good, you know, two, three hours a night. Do you know what I mean? It's fucked it up. You know, it fucked up the whole, my whole, my whole fucking life actually. It fucked everything up. Like I said, I've been, I've been stabbed. I've been, I've been glass in the face. I had 87 stitches down the face there. You know, all over this, in that white case, you know. Oh yeah, yeah, I've had it all, everything. The whole shebang. I don't know. Ben, we're on. Today's guest, we've got John Acty. How are you, Johnny Boy? I'm fine, thank you sir. Good to see you, brother. Brilliant. John, mad story, you were involved, you were charged with the Card of Five for a murder of Lynette White in 1988. Yeah, sure. One of the longest murder, well it was the longest murder trial in British history. Correct. And one of the biggest, if not the biggest, the worst cases. The carriages of justice in the UK. Five of yous get charged. And it obviously came out that yous were innocent, but so much corruption, so much bullshit from the police and how these fucks she's over. And it's a mad story. It's all over BBC, it's all over the news now because it's took so long for everything to kind of end. But first and foremost, how are you, John? I'm okay. I'm coping good. I'm coping good. You're looking well. Yeah, I'm all right. Happy birthday. You're 60 years old. Don't mention it. Keep repeating it. I'm you. I've got the 60. But mad story and it will get into all that. But I always like to go back to the start of my guests where you grew up and how it all began. Yeah, it all began actually in this area. Cardiff Docks. This is where I was born. And my father was a seaman. He was a steel erector. And my mother was a cleaner. And he had the opportunity to move out at that time because he was, you know, in the 60s, you know, there was making the area better, building newer houses and knocking other houses down. So he moved to an estate on the outskirts of Cardiff called Lan Rumney. I don't know whether you can pronounce that, Lan Rumney. Lan Rumney. Yeah. Well, we moved up to an estate in Lan Rumney, which was dominantly white, you know what I mean? But, you know, no problems. But as we was growing up, I was a rugby player. My father was always there for me and my mother. But my father used to take me to the rugby matches, you know? But my dad passed away when I was 11. He had lung cancer and everything collapsed, you know? My mother was still there. My mother was working hard to keep everything together, you know? But, you know, you need your father figure behind you, you know? I had seven kids to bring up at that time, you know? You're on the estate, you know? You lack people up on this white estate. But it was okay, you know? It was okay until you start getting a little bit older, you know? And then I started to mix with the wrong people at that age and then I drifted into crime. What age, John? Ah, 12. You know? Very young. Very young, not long after my dad had died, you know? Just lost it, completely lost it. It was, you know, basically just, you know, break down and losing your father, you know? Everything just went. And then, you know, I just progressed into stupidness and approved schools and detention centers, barstools, young offenders' institutions. Then, you know, when it was all the little prison sentence as well. And, you know, basically that's what happened. My mother tried really hard to get me in the right direction, but it just couldn't happen. My uncle's tried. It's just what happened. Yeah, that's the hard thing, though, isn't it? When you get prisons and all the bullshit and you're doing all the bad stuff. It's the mums we affect. The ones who are trying so hard to raise seven kids and then, like, there's so much poverty, probably hardly any food. It's difficult, especially coming from deprived areas. I know people say you can make choices and this and that, but we always say this and the people I speak to, you become a product to the environment where things feel normal. And it was obviously losing your dad. You don't know how to handle that, so you handled it through violence, frustration, anger. And that's really a cry out for help. That's right, definitely. But, you know, back in the 70s, you know, they didn't know about that, you know what I mean? It was just get home with it, you know what I mean? So, you know, we just progressed into, you know, fighting and, you know, just stupidness, you know, and just getting into stupid trouble. What was the first time you were in adult prison? Oh, that was when I was actually about 13. You know, they was putting you in jail back in the 70s. When you was 13, 14, they was remanning you in custody, you know? That was in Catterprison, the local prison. I was in there when I was 13. So, you know, then you get bail and then you, you know, they give you a chance and then you just do something else and then you'll be back in jail. So, I just, it was like 13, 14, 15, 16 in jail. 17, 18 in jail. You know, 20, 21, you know, still doing the same stupidness, you know? Going to town, fighting, doing, you know, just crazy things. Were you drinking and stuff back then? No, no, no, no, I wasn't actually. No, I wasn't drinking. No, there was no drugs at that time. No drink. I started drinking after I'd finished a free sentence and I was about, I was about 18 when I came out, you know what I mean? Because I got it when I was about 16. So, that's when everything started, you know, the drinking, the drug taking, the, you know, robbing, you know, collecting that kind of stuff, you know? What was your free stretch for? A robbery. Yeah, it's just stupid robbery, street robbery. You were known to the police then, so you'd have been an easy target. A man who's got a criminal past who's always caused trouble. So, you then become, well, people are going to believe us because, look at his past, they'd be fast. Yeah, that's exactly what happened. You know, I was a target then, you know? I was a big kid, you know what I mean? You know, I was playing rugby at the time, you know, that went way so, you know what I mean? And then I was targeted by the police, you know? I'd be stopped by him and I'd be arguing with him and they'd be calling me names. Okay, good names. Whatever black names they could call you. Racism. You know, loads of racism from South Wales police. It didn't stop, you know, they'd even drive past you and call you black bastards, you know? You're a black bastard, Acti. And, you know, then it was confrontational because any time I'd see him then, I'd go up to him and say, oh, you fucking speak to me like that. And, you know, then I'd be arrested for fighting with him. Oh, oh, craziness. Does that make you, even though you were going down a crazy path anyway, does that make you more angry towards the society and the people who are then shown racism towards yourself, especially the corpus? Yeah. But does that make you like anti-authority? Yeah, definitely. You know what I mean? At that time, because I was at that age, you know what I mean? Yeah, anti-authority, you know, arguing with the police all the time. You know, I'd get into a lot of fights with people, a lot of fights with the dormant of town, you know, at that age, you know what I mean? Do you know what I mean? People would walk behind me to get in nightclubs, do you know what I mean? Because I would just, you know, push them out the way, you know, and then you'd call the police, then we'd have confrontations, all you could shit. So 1988, Valentine's Day was Lynette Wake murdered. That's correct, yeah. She was stabbed over 70 times. Mm-hmm. How old were you then, John? I was 26. And you were still involved in a bit of violence? I was involved in, you know, collecting and doing some debt collecting. But Dave makes out as though he was a big drug dealer dealing with Yardies, which was a load of shit, you know what I mean? So, yeah, I was into not good things, you know, at the time. When Lynette got murdered, did you know about it or did you read about it? I'll tell you what happened then. On the Monday, Lynette was killed on the Saturdays, going into the Sunday. On the Monday, I was coming out to my garden, out of my house on Bue Street, which is only half a mile from where Lynette was killed. And as I was coming out, a guy was passing, I always remember, his name was Michael Johnson, and he said to me, have you heard about the murder? I said, no, who got murdered? You know what I mean? This is first thing in the morning, it's like nine o'clock. He said, Lynette White. I said, who's Lynette White? You know, I'm thinking, thinking, who's Lynette White? Anyway, then in the evening, sorry about that, in the evening, I went and got the paper and I seen a picture of her. And then I looked at the picture and I went, oh my God, you know, you see the girl because, you know, she used to walk up and down the street, you know, on my Bue Street. So then I realised it was Stephen Miller's girlfriend, you know, and I went, oh my God, you know, when he's so close to home, you're so sharp, you know. And that was the first time. And then, so when did you get the chap at the door to say you were a suspect? No, what happened is, then the crime watch come on, then they would say, then they showed the guy with the blood outside, the flat cry in and all this, you know, all that stuff. And then, you know, everyone went home that night to watch crime watch, you know, because it's so in the area you want to find out, you know, what's what. And then basically, about two months, a month later, they'd come and done questionnaire, door-to-door stuff, you know, where was you, done that, never you had nothing more. You know what I mean? You see something in the paper over the months, but that was in March, then in December, at six o'clock in the morning, the 9th of December, I looked out my window and I said, I'll see ID standing downstairs. I thought to myself, I opened the window, I said, what do you want? He said, oh, John, we need to speak to you. I said, speak to me about what? And this is how the conversation went. He said, could you come down, please? So I went downstairs. Fucking hell, what the fuck these, I know these coppers, you know. So I opened the door and then there's Inspector Page and his little cronies with him. He said, John, you need to come to the police station about the network. I said, well, I haven't done nothing. He said, I know. I said, but the Chief Inspector said, we've got to bring you in. I said, well, I'm not fucking coming in. And he went, John, if you don't come in, we'll have to call back up. There's like five, six of them already. I said, and then we'll have to come in with your kids and this and that. He's telling me, I'm looking at him. I went, fuck off, get away from my door. And he went, but John, if you don't come, I said, you know what, go and sit in your fucking car. This is exactly how we went. Go and sit in your fucking car and I will come now. I went upstairs. You know, you're nervous. You know, I'm just going over. I went upstairs. The wife said, I said, what's that? I said, they want to see me about this and then that white murder. And I could see the concern on her face. I said, look, I'll be back in half hour. Give her a kiss on the cheek. Kiss my baby who was in a car, Remy. And I see you in half hour. I went down the police station. I didn't see daylight for 23 months. You get charged with the murder? The three days being in police custody. What you're thinking then, you get charged with a murder of a woman who gets stabbed 70 times? Just horror, just, just, just. It was just, you know, it's something you can, you can't, you, you can't worse than explain it, you know? You know you haven't done this and you know the police are fitting you up because I told them in the interview, I know you're fitting me up, you know? They kept me there and kept me there. They take me back and forth the court. You know, when they got to take you in the court to ask for an extension. You know, it was a, it was a bad three, four days I was in the police station, you know? And then when they're coming in, they're saying, the girl said, you stab the UL, the knife through her throat. You're like, oh my God, you know what I mean? You know, they're really, you know, they're going to fit me up. And I was telling the solicitors, it was, they're fitting me up, Stuart. Stuart Hutton was my solicitor and he was looking at me like, oh my God, you know? And anyway, as he went on, they charged me. And I was on a Sunday evening and it was all, they cuffed me and it was all like, 40, 50 coppers there, maybe more. And it was all surrounded us and he just charged us with the murder. And it was just horrific. Who was the first one to get charged with the murder? They had us all in a row. Yeah, they was. Did you all charge the same day? Well, we was all charged on, they lifted some of them like on the Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. And then they charged us on the Sunday evening. How long after the murder did this happen? 10 months. So they couldn't catch anyone? So they just... Well, of course. Because they're looking for a white man who was crying with blood in the charge five. Black men. Yeah, yeah. Who was the kid? Who was the sort of five men? The charged five black men and mixed race kids? Yeah, mixed race kids. Yusuf Abdelar, he was Somali, originally Ronnie was my cousin. Tony Parris was black. Stephen Miller was black, you know, from London. So yeah, it was all black guys, mixed race guys. And that was it. They'd run out of options. They didn't have no one else. They'll swear that they believed it was us. They got to say that now. They got to say that. They stick to their story. But they had another guy in the surveillance for a couple of months. But it turned out it wasn't him. You know what I mean? The blood type, this, that and whatever. And then within a month, they had two prostitutes who couldn't read or write. Yeah. And some other gay guy who lived up in the flat by this girl, all weak, vulnerable people. They worked them and worked them and worked them. And then in the end, they were writing statements for them to sign. Because Lynette, Lynette White's boyfriend, my lad, he was kind of slow. Was he not a bit of a... Yeah, he had, yeah. Stephen Miller had a mental age of 11-year-old. So, you know, they give him a story. You know, they remember, they questioned him for 20 interviews, remember he had. So they were slamming him. He was there. You done it. You done it. And he broke down after they told him exactly what went down from the statements and what their version was. And in the end, he admitted to say, yeah, he was there. And we was there with him. What was that? What was going through your mind then when you got charged with the murder after three days? It's just horror, you know? It's just like your life had collapsed. Everything had gone, you know? There was no hope, you know? You're thinking, Jesus, God, you know? You know, to be charged with killing a young woman and stabbing her 50 to 70 times and being part of a pact where you said you've got to cut their throat. You've got to... It's just crazy, you know? How could you feel? He says it was a ritual killing. A ritual killing, yes. What evidence did they have against you? None. None whatsoever. There was a DNA or anything like that? No. There was no DNA out then? What was that? Yeah, DNA just came in. They say the year after the 88... 88, 89 started coming in. But no, there was no DNA. Nothing, nothing like that, you know? It's supposed to be five of us in a room, the two prostitute girls and some other guy from upstairs. Also, all these people in the room, there's no DNA. Did you all have alibis? Yeah, yeah, because everyone had alibis. Everyone. It didn't matter whether you had an alibi. They were set. The stage was set to take you off the streets and that's all it was concentrating on. I'm not interested in alibis, DNAs. Yeah, Dilla was down on the ship in the Coliseum at 13 witnesses, which I'm saying. The funny thing is that people don't think this stuff actually goes on. I've had Joe Steele on the podcast who has spent over 20 years in prison, him and TC Campbell for murders that didn't commit. I've had Linda Calvi on the podcast. The Black Widow they called us. Yeah, yeah. They've done over 20 years. Apparently killing their husband that she didn't do. Yeah, I bet about that, yeah. That shit does go on something. Listen, there's good coppers out there as well. Of course there's good coppers out there. But it's a corruption behind it as well. If they want to get promoted, they'll get a certain case and they've got a lot of pressure on them to find dancers. Yeah, yeah. They'll fucking do anything. Well, that's exactly what was happening. Definitely. Remember, this area was coming to a new development. It was called Cardiff Bay Development. So they're spending billions to make it better. Not this part of the area, just on the outskirts of here. We're just a little block, you know, and they was doing all the fancy apartments, the seaside restaurants and all of that. They wanted it cleared up. It didn't look good for, you know, south Wales, you know what I mean? To have that unsolved murder on their doorstep. So, you know, in the end, you know, it was under pressure. I don't think the counselors or the Bay Development people said to the police, fit someone up. Do you know what I mean? That was down to the police. Yeah. Exactly. But people didn't think it went on. Do you know what I mean? It didn't think it was, it went on, but it did. What did the newspapers say? Oh, my God. When you get charged? Yeah. Listen, there wasn't a news agency who never, you know, kind of condemned us, you know what I mean? It was all across the newspapers, the radios. It was, it was settable. We was already guilty, you know, as soon as they charged us before we went for trial. Yeah, trial by media. Yeah, trial by media. How were you, were you in protection when you were in prison? No. In protection? What protection? Don't be silly. Because obviously people think you're guilty for that crime. I don't go in protection. No, no, no, no, no. How was other prisoners treated though? Treated like we're talking? No. No, it's none of that. No, no, no, no. Did they know that you were innocent or was there always question marks? No, I don't know. I didn't even ask them, you know, but I didn't get none of that. No, none at all. So obviously with that crime, obviously, you then become a target for them? Well, that happens, but it didn't happen to us. Actually, it didn't. No, we never got none of that. No, I wouldn't stand for that. You think people's going to bully me for a crime I've never done? Am I going to take that? That's not happening. We never got none of that. What you're thinking when you've been charged or in remand and you're potentially could go away for the rest of your life, you could potentially still be in just now? Yeah, of course you could. Do you know what I mean? I was just thinking, you know, when you're thinking, I'm going to get a life sentence here. You know, I could get a life sentence. Am I going to get it? You know, your head's all wrong. Remember, when you go into jail, when you get snicked for murder, you put on a book, a black book. Yeah, so you're in a cell and you've got an A on there, so you're a cat A prisoner until the home office tells them otherwise. Do you know what I mean? So we're in there for about six weeks and then we're back on the landing. Do you know what I mean? Every time you come out to your cell, you had a screw with you. You went to the toilet, screws with you, meal, exercise, and you carried a black book with him. You know, after six weeks, they de-catarized us and put us back on the wings. What was it like telling your wife for the first time that you'd been charged? She knew. She, you know, it was just, you know, when they come in to visit me, you know, it was just, you know, everyone's crying. You know, everyone's crying. You know, my mother's crying. My sisters are crying. My wife's crying. Everyone's crying. Do you know what I mean? You know, because they, my brothers, you know, they weren't crying, but I'm just saying everyone was crying. You know, couldn't believe what happened. Everyone knew, not everyone, because, you know, you get people, well, they could have done it. They could have done it. But because the five of us got nothing to do with each other, people were saying, them guys don't even hang around with each other. So why would they want to go and kill someone together, you know? So, yeah, it was difficult for them. It was very difficult for them, you know? But she's actually, she was there. She was, she was proper. She stuck with me all the way. And this case was the longest mother trial in British history. It was the longest. So how does that then, when you have to go to courts every day, I think that the judge die as well. What happened is that, how did it take so long with so lack of evidence? Well, because they tried so much. They moved it to Swansea. Yeah. Why? Well, they had a better chance of conviction. There's no black people there. You know what I mean? That's where they wanted it in Swansea. You know what I mean? There was, I think it was, maybe 400 black people down in Swansea. That's where they counted. There was a lot of students as well. You know what I'm saying? Going to college and all that. So they moved it to Swansea to make it more difficult for the family to travel to come. So they wanted complete control over there. They had control. The judges was doing this. The police asked them, they'd done everything. Anything to get us down in Swansea and then we went through a trial. The longest murder trial in British history. Then when the summing up, all the QCs had finished their summing up, then the judge had to do this. Then one day we come from the prison, Swansea prison we was in as well. And then they called us in the office and said the judge had died. Actually, if he wouldn't have died, we was going to get convicted all of us anyway because this judge wanted to convict us. All he used to say, when the balancer gets up and the challenges, all the judges used to say then was, well, they'll always have grounds for appeal if they are convicted. I'm telling you, it was frightening. So seeing you're going through that, was there any time going through the trial that you thought, okay, I'm going to get away with this or did you know deep inside that you were going to get convicted? You just can't tell, see, because the juries, you know, are they going to believe it? If they're not going to believe it, then you're not going to get convicted. But at that time, the first trial, I believed that we was all going to get convicted because of the judges' remarks shrew out. How long was the jury away from when they made the verdict? No, no, the first trial, the jury didn't go out because the judge died. So when the judge died, yet after seven months, they called us up and reminded us back in custody to start a new trial. So then they took us back to Cardiff prison and then we started, that was in maybe October, November. And then we started a new trial in May, the following year. And then there was a new judge, Justice Leonard. So you and the family had to go through all that again? All over again. Did Lynette have any family? She did have family, yeah. Her father used to come down the courts and, you know, and all that. How's that? Is he her father? Well, you know, like at the end of the day, I never done that, you know what I mean? I never killed his daughter, you know, used to get the looks, but my brothers used to come down, you know, and then when my brothers used to come down, you know, they used to back off, you know what I mean? His father used to look at me like he's going to kill me. And, you know, I could feel it, you know, I could feel it. He'd be sitting there with his friends, you know, there's a couple of words said and we'd fuck off, you know what I mean? Well, that's understandable. I understand that. You've got the police back and forth with him telling him they done it, they done it, they done it. Do you know what I mean? I understand that. I do really understand that because if that was me, I would not feel the same way. I would definitely feel the same way. Did you ever connect with him after? No, no, no, because the simple reason is when we was acquitted in the second trial, remember, he come to my house with a shotgun, do you know what I mean? And knocked my door. At nine o'clock in the night, do you know what I'm saying? Do you know what I'm saying? John, John! What the fuck is this, you know? Anyway, because he was calling John, my friends don't call me John, do you know what I mean? They don't come and say John, they call me Luca or Alpha, do you know what I mean? At them times, you know what I mean? Anyway, I looked out the kitchen window and he got a shotgun like that pointing at the front door. He's got a big sheep scene coat on. He's like that with a shotgun. Never forget it. If you would have watched it, the door was open. And that was it, boy. And I'm like, oh, just up, down, and just moved out, you know? And then that was it. And, you know, basically that was it. I've never seen him again. Then what happened is, I think he had a heart attack maybe a couple of months later and he died. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, he didn't even see the guy convicted for... I believe, he's my belief and I wish he would have happened actually, that if he would have been here now and he would have seen, you know, the guy's DNA convicted, you know, we could have sat down and talked and he wouldn't have had to say, you know, I would have said that and I understand that. I would have definitely said that, you know? But, you know, there's a few times it always happened and I've nearly got it. I've nearly... I've nearly lost my life over a couple of things over this little white thing. But the second time after the retrial after the judge died, five years obviously got the verdict, three convicted of murder, you and your cousin got acquitted? Yes, that's right. I could tell you the story. When the judge was doing his summon up on the second trial, he had an angina attack. So they had to adjourn the second trial as well on the summon up for three weeks while he recovered with his angina attack. Then he'd come back and done the summon up. Then the jury went out. Stephen Miller guilty on a Tuesday. Tony Parrish guilty on a Tuesday. Ronnie not guilty on a Wednesday. Duller guilty on the Thursday and I was at the bottom of the stairs and they found him guilty. Then I went up and they found me not guilty. That was just unbelievable. What was going through your mind then? Did you cry? Tears in my eyes. I was in shock. Going through the trauma of going through two trials, seeing your family every day but you can't be with them. Having these people saying you cut someone's throat and cut their wrists and make them do it. It's trauma. What people must think of you. Doing such a thing like that. They're going to think it. Well they will think you're an animal. You're a monster. It was very difficult. Readjusting again. Did you ever speak to the three who were convicted? When they got convicted? Of course I did. I went up to see Tony. I went to prison. I went up to Gatry. One more scrubs. Shit all shit all. I went to see him. I stayed in touch with him. I had issues. I was going through a lot of trauma. Myself being out here. Adjusting. Drugs available. Easiest thing to do is to start taking drugs. To get it off your mind but it didn't work. To take away the pain. You're meant to be scared for life. You're a fucking monster. Yeah exactly. Still having a question mark over your head. Of course. What was the three guys like who got convicted? What were they? It was sad. Just to see him in prison. I went up the first sea dollar. They took him straight to Winston Green, Birmingham. I went up there. It was like a November evening. Early December. It was dark. It was raining. I remember the visit. I went up with his brother Malik who's passed away now. One or two other brothers. I can't remember who. He said please get me out of here. Tears rolling down his eyes. Don't leave me in here. It was really horrible to see. Looking at it I could have been in that position. Talking to my brothers. Get me out of here. I wasn't. They got acquitted two or three years later. Two years later. How did they end up getting acquitted? They started his brothers. The appeal. The appeal straight away. Usually appeal can take five, six. Of course it can. Because of this the interview of Stephen Miller and the judges here in the police screaming at them. You done it. You done it. He was a monster. He had a mental age of 11. The judge had no problem throwing the case. I was straight away. As soon as Al Sharpton came over they got him on the campaign. That was the biggest coup they had. As soon as he came over it was fast. Two years it took him to get him out. That's very fast. What was it like when you were acquitted? It was good. He was still out there. The monster would kill this girl. They were still pointing a finger at us. The police were still saying they got off on the technicality. We never. We got off because you fitted us up. Everyone knows now you fitted us up. When they called Kaphore that was just like music. They finally lifted that burden off of you. But then the police tried to keep us in the room with Kaphore. That's what they tried. They even tried to connect us with Kaphore. You haven't done the murder? We don't even know him. Seem you got acquitted when you ended up taking drinking drugs. Were you trying to keep out of trouble because you realised how corrupt the system can be or did you just slip faster? I was in and out of stupidness because I was drinking drugs and me and the wife split up that kind of stuff. She moved on. I don't blame her. I was going through part traumas. I was getting into shit with the police. Still. Was that hard to try and make any changes in your life understanding that you could end up becoming a good guy but still end up getting sent back to prison? Definitely. I just wanted to when they called Kaphore that's when things changed for me. Drugs stopped. It just stopped like that. Do you know what I mean? Never touched it ever again. People might say he did. I got a reason to lie. I never touched drugs again. A guy who'd done the murder of Kaphore, what's his first name? Jeffrey Kaphore. What year did they catch him? They caught him up in a place just outside bridge end. A place called Lanharan. That's where they caught him. They kept him under surveillance for something like that. He'd taken some parasites and I went to a shop and went home. He bought boxes of parasites and went home and took them. The police kicked his daughter in and thank God and brought them to justice. How did they catch him? They caught him through his nephew who'd been nicked for stealing, I think it was a push bike something like that. They took his DNA and there was a partial DNA hit with the DNA they found in the flat. Then whatever forensic they used and they started putting a couple of things together then realized he had an uncle who at that time was a security guard in the area and then they waited down to him and then they got a hit on him. That was that 2003 he got convicted. He had no fucking chance. What did he get? He got a life sentence with a recommendation of maybe 14 years, 15 years but it's ridiculous actually because when Tony and Duller and Miller got convicted they had a recommendation of 17 years and they never done it. Before that recommendation of 13, 14 years and he'd done it. It just does not make sense. Did you go to his court case? No. I didn't. What was that feeling for you then when he eventually got caught and they found the main suspect? It was fucking... Do you get angry towards him that he was sitting back watching five innocent men get put through the fucking hell? I'm angry at the police because before I killed her I'm pissed off with Kefor watching us but you don't expect him to come and say he had done it because he's seen five guys being convicted or being charged with a murder. Do you know what I mean? It's not that. It's what the police done. Do you know what I mean? Kefor had no... He had nothing to do with the police doing what they'd done. They'd done it on purpose and that's what they'd done. They set out to do it. They couldn't find no one. They used us as skateboards. How could they go from a white guy crying to then five all alibis, no DNA but sure there's fuck people who have asked questions, sure they're not that fucking dumb. Listen, you had the CPS Crown Prosecution Service you had the police, you had the magistrates you had them all in it together it didn't care. They didn't give a shit. They wanted it cleaned up. They didn't care DNA witnesses they didn't care. They did not care. They arrested us as far as the media was concerned we was guilty. When did the corruption cases get put to trial? The corruption cases... 2011? Yeah, that's when that happened 2011. So when they went on trial and you know whatever bullshit we had to go down and give evidence and say yeah, I know you're fitting me up and whatever. But I told them before that this case wasn't even going to go to the jury the cop as who was investigating them was South Wales Police they won an outside force remember it was South Wales Police investigating themselves so you're not going to get a result out of that because they don't want no one if it would have been an outside force then it would have all been out there they didn't want that, they wanted to keep it in house and that's why they all walked. How many of them? Oh my god, there was like 18 in a dock remember you had a woman from the York club who joined them and said yeah, I'll say you was there and plus you had this big super grass Ian Albert Massey from Manchester do you know what I mean? who jumped on the bandwagon got paperwork, started reading and said Tony admitted he was there well he couldn't have admitted he was there because he wasn't there so he was in trial with the first time to say that he was in trial, he had come to the two trials somebody admitted the murder yeah that's right Ian Albert Massey he had come to the two trials and said but he had a promise of parole and he had letters from the constable right into the parole board saying this man had been good to us he helped us convict these guys da da da da he needs parole oh yeah it was all decided so they didn't care they did not care scary so you had to go through that the murder trial in 1988 then you had to go through the Jeffree's trial the convict in 2003 then you had to go through the police trial after the police trial then you had the two prostitutes and the guy who said they seen us there they nicked them what year was this? this was say 2008 yeah so this was 20 or 20 years later yeah yeah yeah what happened is there was a reinvestigation because Lancashire police looked at there and they said this is wrong they used to reinvestigate this they reinvestigated and then Bob Courtka for then put the girls on trial for pervert and the cause of justice and all of that conspiracy and they went to jail they went to jail as well because they had no choice to lie remember they couldn't read or write do you know what I'm saying so they had to agree with the police otherwise they was treated like shit see when you acquitted 10 years later 15 years later were you always thinking there's going to be a chap at the door because they never found the murderer there was going to be a chap at the door that you could have went back to prison any time no I wasn't thinking that because I was acquitted by 12 members of the jury so that was out of the window but things do creep in your mind do you know what I mean I was acquitted by 12 unanimous do you know what I'm saying see when it's 20 or 20 years later and the coppers are up for corruption there was so many people up on the corruption charges but how do you feel when they eventually all get away with it so it's going through your mind I knew it because the coppers who was investigating them we used to have meetings with them with our solicitors they used to sit down and tell us oh we got so much evidence against them watch I said yeah this won't even go to the jury oh it will John it will I said yeah we'll see and I was right I said it wouldn't go to the jury and it didn't it was south Wales police investigating south Wales police they was corrupt how could I have any faith in them doing it after what they've done to us it's impossible how do you sleep in that now John my sleep is fucked up from fucking 33 years ago I don't sleep good 2-3 hours a night do you know what I mean it fucked it up it fucked up my whole my whole fucking life fucked everything up because I was doing security at the time I was doing good but they come along and fucked everything up fucked everyone's lives not just mine everyone else's witnesses my family my wives all the other defendants their families they fucked everything up they made it so difficult for everyone my brother had his business they fucked that up as well you know my brother he was a stone mason he was done good he used to go to his clients and tell his clients his brothers are murderers corrupt fucking racist bastards did you ever feel like taking revenge at the height of your anger yeah of course I always thought about taking revenge I thought about going to their houses which is a no-go with the police I got into them states where I wanted to go to their houses my mum said John you'll go back to prison they'll kill you so far I've seen sense in the end and thought well don't these coppers were being arrested do you know how long it took them to get them into court like 8 years do you know what I mean see with the judicial system with them it always takes longer because he wants people to fade away witnesses to die it makes it easier for them to get off did you ever get a story John I got a letter off the chief council maybe 20 odd years later do you know what I mean what's a piece of fucking paper that's a piece of paper I'm sorry I'm never fuck off destroyed everything no health so many people that I just can't get my head around why they think they could have got away with with it I sit down I smile to myself I smiled to myself thinking about that did they really think they was going to get away with it but it happens and there's people in jail no because they have got away with it plenty of people who was in jail and I sit down and I smile to myself then I'm sad then I think fuck you know they want me to spend 20 or 25 years in jail because I stand up for myself do you know what I mean it wasn't actually about committing crimes it was because I stood up for myself they didn't like it they see people was following me and I would lead people into you know you know would follow me we'd go to nightclubs and they wouldn't let us in and I'd push past them people would follow me they'd wait for me to come are you going in I said of course I'm going in and the police didn't like that little power thing they thought I had too much power they didn't like it they thought like to go through that getting that turmoil, pain and trauma and everybody that's connected to it and even now over 30 years later we're still talking about it do you feel as if you've had any closure from it or do you feel as if you're still battle with it I actually when Shredds which is the podcast that opened up a lot of people listening to it again and now Shredds you know opened the door because you know people are just it's like we've been forgot do you know what I mean you know the cop has got off okay just let it fade away into you know into memories let people get hurt when they done this documentary now we're killing in Tiger Bay it's unbelievable the reaction I've had of people over since it's been on is better than the time when I got acquitted for the murder it's been because they've gone into detail and showed exactly what you know that's not exposed in the echo in the media they don't show that I've got people coming up to me in supermarkets hugging me I'm like whoa COVID you know what I mean COVID you know what I mean oh can I hug you please okay I've seen you on the television I've had you know it's fucking crazy I've had the police stop me it's fucking crazy these young policemen stop me and say we didn't know I'm so sorry I said well it's not your fault do you know what I mean as long as it don't happen again I was with my wife last night this is policeman uniform it's crazy I'm not going to be rude to a policeman if you're coming up to me there's good policeman up there we all know that even if we're on the wrong side of the law we're not on the good side of the law there's good policeman out there who want to just do their job but these fuckers who've done it to us they want interest it was racist fucking bastards racist down to the bone down to the thing all racist they just wanted a conviction by any cost and they didn't care who it was especially they wanted me they wanted me before they wanted all of them guys they thought they dragged me in does that make you feel a bit better the coppers are coming up to you and saying sorry and stuff like guys who don't know guys are in the job to do good like we touched on earlier crossing makes you feel better but when you've been fucked over like that where it could have took away your life it's took away your life probably mentally but you could have been locked in a fucking cage for 20 odd years for people just you know they're mortals behind you you put them together and put that in action to say right guys here, alibis no DNA, no evidence we'll pay fucking witnesses to do that so it shows the level of corruption that can happen for people to get but like I say people stop in your coppers obviously things have changed a bit but there's still so much racism out there if anything more than ever I think a lot of shit gets swept under the carpet and people ain't daft either people ain't fucking daft man like this is a crazy thing about fucking life at the moment I think people are weaker not though to a lot more bullshit and that's a good thing to see because back in the 80's and 90's it was ripe the corruption was so bad not just in Canada all around the country all around Britain the West Midlands the crime squad all disbanded up there you've got Manchester it was just crazy but I think they're getting a little bit better it's a lot of technology around now a lot of cameras a lot of phones you wasn't there it'll tell you where you was fucking there or not DNA it's all out there now back then it wasn't they took advantage of that not saying it can't happen again it can but I think and South Wales Police they haven't learned nothing from the day it was South Wales Police who investigated South Wales Police so there was nothing there they all walked all these band coppers walked they never fucking believed there was us they had us within a month they put it together within a month and we was off the streets within a month when was the Birmingham Six? the Birmingham Six was it might have been early late late 70s did they ever reach out to you? actually the Guildford Four Jerry Conlon he stayed down he was on a campaign Jerry Conlon, he's passed away now but the Guildford Four remember the up in Surrey where they were supposed to have blown up the pub he came down but they reached out a lot of people have been was that Fulham, the name of the father? in the name of the father Jerry Conlon is that true story? yeah true story a Paddy fucking Maddo and then they found the thing on the back Gareth Pierce, the solicitor went and looked and she scrubbed but the police had already seen Paddy and he made the statement saying he was with him do you know what I mean? I remember that so Jerry came and helped you? Jerry was on the campaign trail definitely Jerry Conlon what a lovely man he was what was it like when two of passed from the Calder Five when did they pass? Ronnie passed in 2007 Ronnie had a serious breakdown Ronnie was living in a shed Ronnie was literally living in a shed I didn't know that it's only after his family had told me that he was living in a shed for a while and Duller passed away in 2011 just before the trial of the Ben Coppers what was it like when you found out he passed away in a shed? it was horrible I went up to somebody else he was in someone's shed out the back he was sad he was sad that is sad man that shows you how mentally scarred the people were to have that in prison even getting acquitted even going through the years you still had the question marks the people were still dead behind your back that's what it was you could feel it as well I could feel it I go to town you say your name four or five people one might not it's very uncomfortable actually then you've got these Ben Coppers having their colleagues as far as I'm concerned they moved the paperwork so it didn't so they didn't get convicted did anybody ever try and test you to put it on you and call you a madra? yeah I've been I've been tested I've been tested like I said I've been stabbed I've been glass in the face 87 stitches down the face in that white case oh yeah I've had it all the whole shebang I've had it all I've had it all how does that make you feel that you've been attacked because of something that you've never done it's fucking horrible isn't it and as far as the police they're not going to do nothing because they were hoping Terry White shot me they were hoping that happened but it just takes it down it don't show what they've done to us what the police have done to us they were happy they're not going to ever do nothing if I got shot now they're not going to do nothing they hate me now it's a different era now but you still got the old establishment up in the background still pulling things so you've got the young police you know there's some pricks out there but there's some good ones too pricks who want to pull you over in the car like it was for instance now Christmas just gone 10 months ago it was a day before Christmas Eve I'm coming down James Street that's where the girl was killed and police coming behind me in their Range Rovers so I've gone into my cousin's house I come back out and it was packed it was packed up outside so I reverse the car and the next thing they reversed and they said what are you doing they said oh no we're waiting to go to really I said whatever anyway I said when you go anyway they asked me my name I said you know my name stop messing around anyway they were okay it was too one bad anyway boxing day I'm driving around the corner they come again but a different crew pulls me over they said the car is registered in London I said yeah so you are not what's your name I said you know my fucking name that's what you're pulling me but their attitude was so fucking bad because they got the guns on them they said no what can you fucking do they'll taze you they'll shoot you I reported them nothing fucking happens anyway but that's the power they got with these guns and these fucking things so I get there I still get there but I'm not so how can I say challenging with these fuckers because like I said they got the guns so I just and I just report something that happens so it still happens what are you doing drawing around here is the car is registered in London it's Covid so fucking war so I still get to it yeah it still happens what's it like driving by the back where Lynette get murdered it's down the road I see the building every day I haven't done that in the Lynette I never killed her it just reminds me of being jailed like you know I mean being arrested for it but other than that my conscience is clear I know they're fitting me up how's life now life is okay at 60 thank you very much it's okay it's just plodding along and telling the world about the story about what happened to us this horrific story and basically that's it what's the plan for the future do you want to buy I don't know I really don't know just carry on carry on with my life and just keep just keep going that's all I want to do is just keep going my daughter there she lives in London I live at the death she's my baby I know she's a big girl now I'm trying to tell her the truth and I don't know I just see my daughter going through all this and maybe putting through and splitting up with them and yeah it's kind of like you know I do think of it like that you know if she was here I'd be around them all I'd see them all so yeah it's different he made up some fucking he fucked up some parts of my life with my family and you know with people as well so yeah they split me up with my wife and that kind of stuff you know and it kind of hurts me you know thinking you know I had a good wife good family and they fucked it up because they fucked me up and then I resorted to drugs you know and that kind of stuff so yeah it hurts me actually thinking that she's so far away from me even though she's a big girl now it hurts me yeah of course man it's your blood it's understandable how you can get emotional being fucked over like that everything that then the anger of frustration everything you've led like it's totally understandable people will get it a lot of people wouldn't have made it out over the last 30 years they're still blessed now you're here telling your story you've got documentaries coming out that potential book I hear as well that things are happening that will make mistakes in my life you're not coming here and making out you're a fucking saint but you're coming here to set the record straight that you've never done some fucking nasty crime that you've set out to get a guilty for but this just shows you how life works as a fucking mad journey this isn't it it's been a fucking mad journey you know over you know up until they got could fall and you know and they're carrying on with the trials and then the police trials and the paperwork we're missing it just never went away it was always there there for 27 years you know and now is the time to tell the story because obviously people don't want to companies don't want to bother with it when proceedings legal arguments are still going on so now they're all finished now with all the stories are coming out you know yeah what about the guy who done them he must pick jokes in there now he's due out soon yeah he had the parole here a couple of months ago but they refused him yeah but you know that I think he's since 2000s opinion 16 17 years now he'll be out eventually do you know what I mean remember if I suppose Lynette would have been a university graduate I think he would have stayed in there a little bit longer because she was on the wrong side of the track you know that's my opinion anyway yeah did he ever say why he'd done the killing I don't I think it was over he wanted his money back yeah that's what I see in you know like you see in the paper and all of that he wanted his money back he wasn't happy and then he got 30 pound or something like that over 30 pound yeah and he stabbed her 70 times that's about psychotic though of course he's psychotic surprised he's not in fucking Broadmoor somewhere that for psychopaths yeah and he's going to be actually becoming on the streets he's going to be on the streets somewhere near you do you know what I'm saying so look out for him he's up in Ilstoke prison up just up in Swindon one of the semi-open prisons one of them yeah so he's he's eventually going to be coming out soon that's fucked up man yeah it's right fucked up but you know it could have all like I said I always said this always said this if Lynette White would have been a student or a university graduate or someone with a top they wouldn't have come for us do you know what I mean because they wouldn't have been they put because she was like down we was all in this area drugs this and that you know they could link it you know that kind of stuff you know what I mean it was all black from this area prostitution drugs you know they had that you know what I mean but if she would have been a university student I don't know what I would have done do you know what I mean what do you think Bartlett would need to leave John um good and bad you know good sounds bad a lot of bad times you know and uh yeah it's been a good life really but you know this have fucked it up for the last 30 years you know you know it was okay you know but this have just been continuous continuous continuous you know do you think you can get some closure on the book now and or even just flip the chapter and make a new one for yourself well I hope so you know maybe maybe that could happen but you know I'm 60 now you know what I mean you know I'm getting older now but you're very well liked and respected I heard you had a 60th party in here most people have had it since the place is open so you're clearly well liked mate well it was the biggest party they've had they've told me you know what I mean so it was packed you know so it was a good night everyone was happy saw them Facebook it's all out there for everyone to see and oh yeah it was a good night is that the first time you felt properly free or properly yeah that night it was you know you know it's everyone come together and it was nice man it was really nice you know the love was there you know the love was there you know and everyone come to celebrate my 60th birthday you know and I was out here to celebrate you know you don't walk around like you're slow being in jail yeah I'm fucking dead mate yeah I'm dead yeah you know I've been through some bad shit since I've been out you know I didn't even think I'm still here to tell the tale I'm still here to tell the tale I've got a few documentaries coming up what's this community centre again we'll give them a shout out this is called Buton Community Centre yeah great new place make us feel well in the heart of the docks yeah and what about the book we're going to potentially see this soon sorry the book yeah well I'm waiting on the person to sort out the book yeah it's going to be a lady called Kerry Jackson she's the one with the idea I'll go from there yeah like I said probably make a film about your life and stuff well they are making a six-part drama that's going to be done by Disney Plus but you know that's in the making now it's waiting for the green light so sorted which is waiting for the green light now so you've got a lot of positives coming out you've got a lot of stuff to look forward to why not make a bit of money off which is a good thing that you've suffered enough like why not just fucking make a bit of dough from it maybe get a cow like yours yeah get a brief look now you don't know what's down the corner you don't know what's down the corner would you like to finish up on anything brother well you know I wish my mum my brother and my sisters was here now because they was there with me all the way through and my brother without my brother Stephen who died 14 years ago without him running around and doing a lot of work on his case you know he made it possible as well for me to come out of jail because he didn't give up he and my mother and my sister Natalie and all the brother he just he done everything for me if he was here now he'd be sitting by me actually he'd be here with me you know because every part of it he was there with me James honestly God he was there it's an emotional thing talking about it actually I don't get like this actually I've never done this in an interview he was my mother was there it was all there my wife all of them I don't know what to say but my brother was the main person to everything intercept letters get letters out because the girls wrote the letters saying about the police made them do it and my brother intercepted it and they knew it but you know the girls you know where they had them they had them on in bridge end police headquarters for two years they kept them in there so you can imagine they was grooming them and grooming them and grooming them just to say what they wanted them to say when they come into court you gotta imagine James we're sitting in court coming in and calling us black bastards you know it was terrible you know you sit there what could we do my brother was there all the time so you know thank them all just how it is yeah you're a lot to hear about them because it just goes to show that it's good to have somebody by your side he's the truth in you and believes in you that you've never done it because a lot of people have turned their back as well but he didn't say to me once was you there did you do it not once they knew they knew straight away we didn't hang around together and I wouldn't do such a thing I might be you know I might have a bad reputation as you know getting it on with other people you know I mean and ended up fighting and walking in nightclubs and pushing bounces out of the way and so forth and so on but this it's never gonna happen but for coming on today brother John and telling your story mate you're a strong man and God bless you and I look forward to seeing your book out we'll get you back on promoting your book and stuff as well but you've got a great life ahead of you mate go enjoy it man you're fucking earned it brother thank you James