 Good day my lovely listeners. You are listening to the 40 Autie podcast. Tune in every week to explore inspiring stories and insightful information that dive headfirst into the world of autism and mental health. With all those tantalizing tongue twisters out of the way, let's get into the show. Hello everybody and welcome back to the 40 Autie podcast. We have a little bit of a special episode today. We are talking around the topic of the Asperger's in Society documentary, which is a documentary that I did in my final year of university. Most people do research. I decided to make a full-length film as you do. But basically the whole premise of this documentary is talking about autism from a personal angle and also from sort of an outsider's perspective and merging them together to get a good representation of autism in the present day. It has had a lot of important sort of very good responses from people such as National Autistic Society, a few other radio shows, media relations team at the university. So there's a lot of good stuff that's coming from this. And today I'm joined by Esme. Esme, why is it getting that wrong? Why is it getting the name wrong? Esme. Yes. Esme Hayes. Hello. Who is one of the interviewees that I interviewed? Of course. And we sort of had a little bit of a chat we sort of met through, I think, Norman Darwin. Yes. Like from Access Summit. Is that what it's called? Apparently. Yes, it's the DAS. So like disability access, something, something for University of Manchester. Yeah. Well, he was like an adviser. I still have weekly phone calls of Norman. But yeah, he told me about the documentary and told me to go up for it. And then I got in contact with you, of course. You did. And we had a little bit of a chat before the cameras roll in and then a long chat, which is going to be uploaded hopefully soon to the Asperger's Growth Channel and also the Asperger's Society website. This is sort of a series entitled Behind the Scenes. And it's basically to give everybody a bit of a insight into the interviews because I'm I'm sure you can you can probably tell as me from the the final products that I cut out a lot. Yeah, but like I think I think I really like the way it's edited, actually, because I feel like you get from small snapshots from different people when they compile together, you get like a full idea of what's being expressed. I feel like everyone failed to say entirely what they wanted to say. But when you put it all together, like it makes sense. So I quite liked that, actually. Also, I felt that I said I did what I did and I ran my mouth out. And then I went through, said through it, had a look, chopped out the good emotional juicy bits and put it into the documentary. But it's a shame no one cried. But I was I was actually making I was actually going through the behind the scenes video, sort of check it over and edit it. And every time it was getting to a bit that was included in the documentary because I've been so like, I've got I've got so much experience like I've watched the same clips over and over again for so long. It was really weird that things didn't cut off at the end. Like I was expecting it to just go to black or go to another person speaking. But it's a full interview. But yeah, it's I hope that this sort of like this podcast and this these behind this behind the scenes series will give people a bit more of an in depth sort of view of the opinions of now that people are in it. Because it's I would love to include every single bit of the interviews. But, you know, that would be like nine hours long or something. Well, that would be like having decent representation of autistic people. But I mean, I just like I know this is a bit like rude. But when you said your use of the word special episode really made me laugh. So I've been suppressing laughter for five minutes. Special episode with a special person on a special related podcast. Yeah. I mean, that that is why we're all here. Yes. Do you want to do you want to give everybody a little bit of a introduction into to who you are? Well, I was I think it's safe to say that I was clueless for a very, very long time. I I muddled along as I think most people do when they're not diagnosed, especially autistic women. I muddled along. I didn't muddle along particularly well. But like I did well enough, adequately enough, like academically, socially, that I kind of progressed through life. And not too worse off than most people. But the thing is, is like I struggled. I really, really struggled, especially as adolescents here. And I kind of thought a thing different about me. But I had no idea what that could be. And I just thought I just thought I'm weird. Everyone else's normal and I'm weird. And then I went to college. I made friends who I would say like they're still my like my core friendship group now. Like people that I I sort of hope to have like in my life for the rest of my life. Some of them happen to be autistic. And I kind of I I just sort of asked them about it out of politeness originally because that that's how I learned to socialize it. Ask other people about their interests and their lives, you know, because because that's what you do. No, and I don't do it in sincerely. I'm just saying like, yeah, social, social code. Yeah, it's it's something that like I think maybe you initially do because you think you have to do it. And then it becomes saying that you just naturally do anyway. Like so they told me about autism and I kind of. I think I recognize some things in what they were saying. But I was in denial or if if I wasn't in denial, like I was so certain of like there being no possibility that I wasn't just quote unquote normal. They're like I just rejected any idea that like went against that. So it didn't like it didn't really make that much of an impact on me. And then like I started to talk to them more about it. And like I developed an interest in autism. And then and this is why I think we're talking about representation today. We are. Thank you for introducing that topic for us. I think the reason we're talking about representation today is I wouldn't I'm pretty certain that I would not be diagnosed if it wasn't for the Swedish crime series The Bridge because I got completely engrossed by that program. It's amazing. And I it I'm so I'm so glad you've watched it. It's a really good film, isn't it? It's just like beautifully crafted. Well, it's just if anyone like I feel like it's so important in if if there ever exists an autistic canon and I hope there will be one one day, one that's like written about extensively The Bridge has to be in it. And like I just identified with the protagonist so much. And she's just a wonderful like all the characters are wonderful. But like she is specifically wonderful. Yeah, empathize with her a lot. Well, yeah, but like she she's this wonderful character. So I looked up and through that I found all these articles about women and autism. This was the point when the the penny really started to drop. And I was like, ah, I called like my best friend at the time who is autistic. And I mean, there's now my boyfriend. So I called him and I'm pretty distressed, actually. And I was like, is what is this? Like, surely I'm no autistic. Am I am I talking nonsense? Have this really long conversation with him? And I kind of had like a full scale mental breakdown. And like it was it was difficult. But the thing is, is what came out of it is I became really determined to pursue a diagnosis and it took me about a year. But and like a lot of messing about. Yeah, a lot of messing about. So basically, like I had this emotional breakdown, pursued diagnosis took me I was in university by the time I got it. It was very soon after that I found out about this, actually. So I was still pretty giddy off of getting it. Now time has passed since then. I've had more time to kind of consider it. And I think think about it in a more nuanced way. Initially, I was excited because I felt like it had given me an identity. But I think what you come to realise is that it's not that it's given you an identity. It just is your identity. Confirmation that you get medically, like I think it assists you, but like you shouldn't have to depend on it. Yeah, it's sort of like a means means to an end. I understand that, because I mean, although I was diagnosed at the age of 10, you know, I've sort of been living my life and having that sort of support. They're very limited support school. Yes, I still there was there was a point in sort of think about like first or second year at uni where I actually had to start reading about it and learning about it. And I did sort of get a bit, you know, you start reading things and you think read about masking and you read about all these or these concepts that you're very new to. And I guess like you need time to process and think about it and form your own opinions about those things. Because like, although it is now with anything like social, anything that's sort of not completely black and white, but, you know, a bit grey, you have to have your own opinion on it. Well, I think you just have an impulse to like you have an impulse to like latch on to an idea of yourself because you're like so desperate for things to be like uncomplicated. You seek out stuff because you're like, I just I just want to make sense of things because I'm so confused. And I think like the first time that you read stuff on autism as an autistic person is it's bizarre. It's like, you know, imagine people say, oh, I identify with fictional characters. Imagine if you picked up a random book of a shelf and like it was your life story. Yeah. And like it was like the character was you. Basically, like for me, like that was learning about autism felt like that. And like it's almost like a an an accurate star sign chart, isn't it? Yeah. And it's like it's exactly like that because it's not exactly an enjoyable experience. It's actually very kind of creepy. You're like it makes your sense of self, I think feels a bit threatened by it because you're like, how can there how can there be anything that like defines me this well? They're like, because, you know, that's not what personalities are supposed to be. They're supposed to be like these diverse, unknowable things. When you are a type of person who like in many ways, your personality does have a diagnosis to have your what is you discussed in such a medical and precise way. It's disturbing, but it also provides a great sense of relief because you're like, no one's ever spelled it out for me like this. This clearly, you know, it's very like contrasting, isn't it? It's like it's it's good and it's bad. And I think like when when you start reading about these things and you start you start building who you are up again because you have these ideas that are very common, these experiences that are very common and feelings. You sort of have to build yourself up as the autistic person, Thomas or the autistic person as me rather than. Yeah, just as me or Thomas. Yeah, yeah. But not in a bad way. Well, I feel like the maturity of it is. I'm trying to express this clearly. Saying that I really would encourage that people avoid and it's like it's a really hard thing to avoid. And I think it's a pitfall for everyone is identifying too much with the condition because you are not a disorder and so much about you cannot be classified as autistic. Yeah, you are you are you fundamentally. And I think sometimes it's too comfortable to to just be autistic. Yeah. And I think if if that were to change, I think what has to happen is is there has to be more stuff like this. There has to be more autistic people just talking about themselves and talking about their lived experiences so that it becomes less unusual for, you know, when when children or adults are investigating autism or whether they're autistic, they're not looking purely at like NHS website, like they're they're hearing from people what it is like to be a certain kind of person and not even a certain kind of person. But my boyfriend is is doing research into autism at the moment because he he's he's looking to write some stuff on on it. And I can't remember who it's from. But there's this academic which discusses how autism should be viewed as like all these different people or waiting for the same bus because he's like if we can't be certain of what autism is as a condition, like we can't be certain of what it is biologically or socially. We just know that it is it is a thing that exists that unites all these different people. Yeah, it's got to be considered like saying as arbitrary as waiting for a bus. But in this case, it's necessary that all these people wait for the bus. They need to get on that bus. Yeah, they need to get on the bus and they all have the shared experience of needing to go on the bus, which is distinct to people who don't have to get on the bus. Yeah, we've got got got a bus pass that. You've got to take take over or else you're just going to be drifting. Drifting on the road. Yeah, you go on like it's like a long stretch of road, which which goes off into the mist. And if you try walking one way, you just end up back in the same place. You've got to get on that bus. It's a Greta Fernberg autocracy. Where if you don't use public transport, people with guns come for you. But yeah, like and I thought that was a good analogy because I don't like to think that like the only thing that unites me and you, Tom, or like makes us get on is that we're autistic. And I think in many ways it's not because I think and you'd say this as well, like it's not like I get on with every autistic person. Oh, yeah, like I definitely do not get on with. It's it's it's a weird thing to say because it's it is obvious. But I don't think many people say it. But what is it? Some autistic people can be arseholes, like it can be so horrible. It's like this is this one instance of this this guy who is is it I mean, Paul, like he's is definitely not in the fittest state, but he sort of reached out to me and we got chatting and I was like, yeah, yeah, we can we can chat now and again. They'll check in with you. So how are you going on? And it got to the point where he was like getting annoyed at me for not replying quick enough. So like if well, that's a classic. Yeah. And it's just I mean, there's got to be a line where you say it's it's either OK, right. Maybe maybe, you know, following, understanding what autism is and you know, if you haven't worked on these things, but. You know, we're going to have to part ways because you're causing a great inconvenience to my life. And I think this is a really good way to segue into inclusion. Yeah, because something I think is is so avoided by exactly the people who claim to like say that they are the ones creating inclusive environment. I think there's a lot of fear of like addressing that autistic people are people and they behave badly. Sometimes like they behave like terribly. Sometimes it's terribly as non autistic people do. And the thing is, is if if you're so worried, if you're so nervous about being insensitive that you actually stop treating someone like you treat other people. Because if like, let's say that guy wasn't autistic and he was being a prat, I'm sure like. Do you get the same response? Well, I feel like people around him would say like you're behaving badly, like sort it out. But then if people are afraid that like. That there'll be some bad consequence for them or like they're being insensitive if they say to someone straight like this isn't OK, that's not inclusivity, is it? No, it's it's sort of pandering to because you'll get people in those situations if you do. You know, the sort of worry is that other people will sort of pitch and say, hey, you can't you can't treat him like this. Like he doesn't know any better. He's autistic or or whatever kind of difference that he has. Well, and it's massively infantilizing. I feel like so so often being autistic is is like not dissimilar to being a child. And the the way people treat you is is like they treat you like a child. They do. And expect you to behave like a child. No wonder there are so many autistic people who who do behave childishly and don't mature. It's like if that's how you're taught to behave. Yeah, then then why would you be any different? I definitely do think there's there's there is like a a big sort of because I suppose it does depend on the environment that someone's brought up in. But, you know, you've you've got that whole difficulty around sort of raising autistic children that, you know, mothers and fathers who who haven't had any experience with it. Don't know how much to sort of keep them safe and don't know how much to expose them to the world. And you need to get like the the amount right for the person. Don't you? You can't like wrap them up in cotton blanket because then they're not going to mature. And then I feel like sometimes it's easier for parents who like have undiagnosed children because they don't have any expectations and they're not like scared out of parenting as they would normally. You know, like, they just do things they do anyway. And then and like it has problems. Like it's it's it's made problems for me because like I don't think it meant that I was like sufficiently prepared for a lot of things because like I didn't realise that I was on the back foot in a lot of situations. Yeah. And like it does cause difficulty. But like I think it gives you freedom that you don't necessarily get if you get diagnosed really early. Yeah. You know, you get the you get the liberty to be yourself. And being yourself might mean like that people tell you to shut up. And, you know, it might it might force you to change and you might have to go through hardship for it. But like you come out of it and like that's how you've learned social skills. Yeah, that's how you've learned how to be around people without being obnoxious. There was like, you know, we're talking about sort of, you know, some autistic people being arseholes, like I've seen a lot of documentaries on like YouTube and stuff that does seem to be a link between like delusions of grandeur and autism and sometimes that can be a bit of a problem. There's like this, have you ever heard of Idubs? Yeah, well, he did this documentary about this this this kid in America. He's not a kid. He's a man, but in America. And they do like lightsaber fights and stuff. And it's it's all very funny to watch because they get really into it. And it's like, treat it like a death duel because because they have like these constructed sort of like ideas of how the world works and they haven't really been exposed to real life and they haven't learned and, you know, sort of had to go through that transformative process of growing up. Then it can cause a lot of difficulty, I guess. Yes, love, you know, violence and stuff. But if the thing is, is that if an autistic person grows up in a healthy environment, quite often, I've found that on a lot of occasions, they can be quite in tune with what is right and what is wrong and the moral values are more constructed. Well, they're also the people who like end up in full time employment. Yeah, yeah. Like it's it's it's not just the social because in some ways, like a strong part of me, which is like, I don't care if you don't like autistic people, if you find autistic people difficult, like, all right. Maybe inform yourself, you know, maybe maybe be a bit more understanding. Maybe don't like actually expect all humans to work around you. And I also feel like sometimes it's over exaggerated how difficult autistic people are. Yeah, I mean, like autistic people like demanding that the least amount of organization or competence and people like, oh, that's so tight. And I'm like, not really. It's just that according to the sort of normal social laws, that's not that's not an acceptable adjustment or it's not a normal adjustment. It's like in often it's like it's not unreasonable demands. Yeah, something quite simple, isn't it? It's just like having a schedule. I think a lot of people would say that having a schedule is just like generally a good thing. But like, what if you what if you need that schedule and people don't commit to it like you do and people let you down? Like surely that's bad anyway. Surely it's not bad because it's affected an autistic person, but you've just let someone down. But like, I mean that aside, like putting social side of things away. The material consequences are vast and very significant and like unaddressed mainly. I mean, what when autism is discussed, we all know like are unautistic people funny and quirky and do silly things? Like we all know that and we know like, oh, like Sheldon Cooper can't interact with people. He makes pop culture references and like Star Wars and physics. He's a bit blunt. Oh, my God. But like, we know that side and that side is like because that the entertaining side of autism, we see all the time whenever autism is being represented. What isn't represented is 16 percent of autistic people in full time employment. Disabled women are sexually assaulted five times as much as women who aren't disabled, you know, being autistic. Makes you very vulnerable economically. Yes, it's very likely that for at least a long period in your life, if not your whole life, you are going to be dependent on other people like being nice to you basically. And what if you grow up in an abusive household and they want to get rid of you like age 16? What are you going to do then when like you are already not as able to move through this society as someone without autism? It would be bad enough if you weren't autistic, but in this situation, you're autistic and you're doing that. Yeah. And this happens. It happens a lot. Well, that's another sort of element of difficulty, because if you find it hard to understand, you know, a lot of autistic people have the alexifamia, struggling with categorising and understanding emotions in yourself, understanding. I'm also familiar with that. No, I know. Yeah, it's recently something that I've looked up. But yeah, like with the emotions and understanding yourself and understanding other people, it's obviously going to be hard to. You're going to be in any case, you're going to be very vulnerable for that first 16, 18 years of your life on other people. And you've got to have that that structure. And you if you don't have that structure and people at school don't get you and they don't support you. Well, the teachers don't get you and don't support you. And in some cases, some cases can be harmful as well. Well, and like we know that this is getting worse because I mean, look at how much pressure teachers are under and the lack of funding in schools. Yeah. I mean, we're told that there's been an increase in funding in schools. But if you look at it in real terms, there is there is there is less funding. That is. It's just true. You couldn't you couldn't believe you've also got got the they've reduced the funding for like special needs education by everything, I think. Have they dropped it down to like zero? So S.C.N. funding, like the last time I heard about it was terrible. It's just it's like zero pounds now, like don't quote me on that. But it's it's bad. I'm engaged with it. But the thing is, is like, I must admit, I got so engaged with these things. And the thing is, it's it's so upsetting. You have to there's a point where you have to stop looking. Yeah, because you're so upset by it because it's it's not nothing. It's it's people's lives. There's something deeply, it deeply disturbing about like, because obviously we can sort of put ourselves in in them shoes a little bit easier. But like, we've got through it, haven't we? Like we we're adults now and we struggle. But like, we got through it. They're going through it. And it's it's like, pretty much the worst time of your life. I think it's tragic that other people get to enjoy like, pretty nice childhoods. That's not I know, that's not true of everyone and everyone experiences difficulty in their life, of course. But like, a lot of people, they won't know just how hard it is to be an autistic child without support. And it's it's very difficult. And you don't look back on it with sort of raised-handed goggles. You you think of it as badly as it was. You're like, that was terrible. And I'm saying like, doesn't now now it doesn't even require a teacher to be specifically malicious. What it what's happening is like, it's pretty inevitable that people like us will be neglected because there aren't the resources or the time for teachers to focus on people like us. You know, like it may just happen by accident. But like, that's not an excuse and it's not it's not fair. The government should be accountable for that. It's it's their decisions. They've made them. And if people suffer because of it, these children can't stand up for themselves right now because they're their children. Um, they need adults to say on their behalf, like, these children need to be looked after just as much as any child does, and you've let them down. Yeah. And because you've let them down, they're less likely to be employed when they're older, they're less likely to get into higher education. They're less likely to have like healthy, decent relationships or like know what healthy, decent relationships are, because obviously if you like neglect. Yeah, well, the childhood provides a lot of your you're at your sort of framework to what normal healthy relationships are. And if you're without that, like you're you're basically lost in the world. And I think. I'm not like because I've been talking about neglect in like in sort of an academic sense. But what I'm saying is like, it also means like teachers not noticing the bullying is going on or not noticing that someone's like struggling to interact with people. And the thing is sometimes all it takes is a little bit of guidance. It's just someone like being gentle and being like, look, I know I know that you don't understand what you're saying or what you're doing. And or like, I know you don't understand that like you're being bullied or that these people are making fun of you, but like this is what's happening. Yeah, and it's going to it's going to impact you later in life more than you can especially especially like in teenagehood. Yes. I mean, the reason why I started doing the the documentary was because like the rates of mental health, suicidality, bullying, social isolation, exclusion in the workplace and at school is just absolutely apparent, like it's it's awful. And I was trying to think of some some way of trying to put it straight in my head. Like we've got things like the National Autistic Society fighting our case. We've got other organisations that sort of pitch in. We've got representatives and people that talk about autism. Why is it that nothing is being done about this? And I think the problem is that people just really don't understand. Like what autism is, like not not from not from like a people understand the medical stuff, the social interaction, that the bog standard bullet points of stuff, but they don't fully grasp an autistic person. They don't have an experience of an autistic person. No, they're not. They're completely unfamiliar with it. And I think I mean, this is what we talked about briefly in my interview before. It's like people need exposure to think people need to be exposed to things to understand them often. And like we that that's that's going to be a problem because it's not like we can organise all autistic people to meet all autistic people. Like it's not going to happen. But that has to be that level of exposure for it to become normal to to the extent that we see we see these mental mental health issues as a group of people, you know, just ignoring the autism label that have these statistics applied for them. We need to do something about that. But because people don't really understand autism and they don't see the opinions of autistic people and they're, you know, a lot of people would say that they don't consider it to be a disability in some sorts, maybe more like a difficulty. If people were to see it like that, then maybe we'd have more action on the mental health side of things, the policies and the education. Like it's just it's crazy, isn't it? That all of this is going on. I think it's also worth I think I and I don't want to do down. The work of organisations like the National Autistic Society, which is obviously like worlds better than I forget its name. I know I hate it. We don't need to say it. If everyone knows, yeah, you know what? I was in totally infuriated because Matt Hancock, there is a video of Matt Hancock endorsing that organisation. So if you want to go find that and also be infuriated, you're welcome to. The reason he read it out is because they endorsed him on their Twitter. And I was like, this is beyond farce, isn't it really? I actually had a little bit of a sort of hiccup, like when I first started doing YouTube and I decided to sort of like do a video for Autism Awareness Week and that particular organisation that I'm not going to say because, you know, I might sue me or something. That which shall not be named one with the sort of cooler sort of tone around it and that sort of that item that a lot of children have that they can piece together. That sort of organisation. Yeah, puzzle pieces, yeah. Something like that. But you know, puzzles, because all autistic people love puzzles and autistic people, I just like, I like the idea that you can define autism by it being puzzling. Yeah, I think maybe what they're trying to go is it's like the missing piece. Oh, my God. But it's so kitsch. It's so kitsch. It's so like, it's so weirdly cute. It's so like, I mean, and this is the infantilisation. It's childish, isn't it? Yes. We need that adult autistic side to it as well. Well, because we are adults. Exactly. I mean, like, it's also like, I mean, it's the complete erasure of like autistic people like having sexuality is, you know, interesting. But like, I just wanted to say, like, and I don't mean to do down the work of individuals who are part of the National Autistic Society. And I'm grateful to them because I I used their website quite extensively when I needed diagnosis. But I feel like they're not unflored and the way they represent autistic people isn't unflored. And I think they like, when I've seen like advertising for like their charity events and stuff, the first thing that I see is a picture of like an autistic child often like and like it's often a picture which like portrays them in a especially disabled looking way. From my experience, it usually appears in the mainstream media as sort of like a sympathy kind of angle. Like it's they're trying to make themselves like, yeah, it's a tragedy. We're helping them. We're giving them a stage on, you know, like Britain's Got Talent or something, something like that. And look how happy they are now. We've made their their trauma, their struggles and traumas into something great. You know, it's all that kind of stuff. It's all about like sympathy and I could run and rave about. You're familiar with the medical model of disability, I presume. Yeah, in terms of like, I know there's the autism is usually related to like the social model of disability. Is that like the opposite? Yes. Well, the medical model of disability basically says that the purpose of diagnosis is that like there's a problem that needs to be fixed. The point of diagnosing something is to make it go away. And that the ideal human is a non-disabled human. And until you're not disabled, you are not ideal. And this makes you a subject of tragedy, right? Affliction. It also like it justifies. This is why it's controversial. It justifies everything from like treatment, which in many cases people could use a positive thing to justifying like the practice of eugenics. Because if you view disability purely as a negative thing, then why would you in any way like advocate the existence of disabled people? This is the problem with the medical model. Of course. Where was I going with this? We were talking about sort of like the representation of, you know, autism and, you know, like the sympathy and stuff in the media. The thing is, is like I think something. I'm not meaning to under do the struggle, but people with physical physical disabilities or physical impairments go through because like, I can't I can't even relate to it because I like I don't. I'm not missing a limb. But the thing is, is like if you lost your limb in an accident or something, even if people view it as tragic, they they view it as a tragedy that happened to you. You are still a person distinct from the tragedy that happened to you in some ways. Yes, you will still be viewed through that lens and people will still be like horribly patronising to you because they just see you as disabled. But like that they they will in some way be able to recognise that you are a person. Yeah, I really hate the word low functioning, but it's it's the term that people understand. I mean, there's not a nice word that's come up with. But like if you are a low functioning autistic, you're just not a person. It's not a matter of tragedy. You just aren't a person. You are a you're like viewed as like just just a problem for other people to deal with. And I if we're going to talk about representation, I want to like make this absolutely clear. We've got a huge problem in that there is a great number of people who should also be able to identify as autistic just like us, but they can't communicate. Yeah, they can't communicate what their experience is. They can't communicate how they'd like to be represented or the sort of sort of people they are or how they how they feel about the way they're treated because they can't communicate. Yeah, that doesn't mean they're not people. Because you're right. There is no way nice way or PC way of saying low functioning autism. But if we if we're just to just get over that, like. Well, at some point, you sort of have to. It is the elephant in the in the room when we talk about like awareness and and all of that kind of stuff and the experience of of autistic people. Although, yeah, we share a lot in common with people that difficulty in it, not use that word. We share a lot in common with that group of people, like being sort of. I can't I feel like I feel like to be to be as succinct as possible about it. If we call autism an identity, autism as an identity also has a touch to it impairment. There are autistic impairments and what impairments you have and how severe they are is different from person to person. And the impairments you might have might mean that you are nonverbal. And the 24 hour care, this is going to mean that your experience of life is considerably different to like how I experience life, because, you know, I can I can live independently enough to to some extent to be able to like almost pass under the radar. If I really went for it, you you might it might be possible that you wouldn't know that I'm autistic. Yeah. But there are some there are some people for this for whom this is not true. And it may never be true. But I think like and I've got a quote from the book on disability studies as students guide, which is edited by Colin Cameron, which I think like puts this this problem very well. The removal of people identified as having significant impairments from the mainstream of social life has rendered impairment a subject to fear and embarrassment that non-sabled people feel unsure about and uncomfortable dealing with. This is what's happening right now. Yeah. Like you don't know what to say. It's like you can't talk about it. It's not even just with non-autistic people. It's like there are some things that you can't say in the in the autistic community from what I've gathered from from Instagram and chatting to people. The whole sort of the impairment side of things is very much sort of stayed away from because it's like, oh, you're acknowledging what Hans Asperger said. And I'm like, I'm like, if that's if that's how you feel, you're missing the point because if you if you let Hans Asperger define what autism is, that's the problem. I feel like if we're going to move on, moving on is is having the ability to say, no, I'm going to investigate what autism is and I am going to self actualize. This is going to be me deciding for me what autism is because society or like Nazi scientists don't get to impose on me what I am. Yeah. And they certainly don't get to impose upon non-verbal people. Like they do have an impairment and like that does have to be addressed in order for them to be able to live well. But like it doesn't have to be a definitively bad thing. And this is the point of the social model of disability is disability isn't like the responsibility of individuals to overcome. Disability is saying that it's imposed upon people by society. Yes. I think I think Asperger's just, I know Asperger's is no longer a term that's I don't think it's a diagnosis in, not in this country. I think it's the same in America. Some people are really upset about that because like, because that's what they were diagnosed with and that's... I think it still stands. I think the original diagnosis still stand. But it's just that... Yeah, if you've already been diagnosed with it. But I suppose this is a good way to sort of like, talk about the particular representations and things like film and TV, which I feel like autism is either portrayed to be a tragedy or it's portrayed to be an amazing hero-like quality. What's savantism, isn't it? Yeah, like that or a mixture of the two. It's never just an unautistic person. And I think one of the things that sort of astounds me quite a lot is that, although this just happened in other groups, people who play these autistic characters are not necessarily autistic. In most cases, I think it was like something stupid like 5%, which is a difficulty, obviously. Like the bizarreness of it is like, because of the democratising effect of the internet, probably the greatest representation of autistic people exists in like, stuff like memes? That's bizarre, like... Or YouTube videos. Or YouTube, I mean... And this is like, I'm gonna mention a social media platform that I have never used and I don't intend to ever use, but I've been told many things about 4chan. Oh, 4chan. And the prevalence of autistic people on 4chan. Like, it's funny to hear you talking about safe speech. I'm pretty sure safe speech is non-existent on saying 4chan. And then I suppose Reddit is a similar thing. It's more mainstream. Yeah. Yeah, and a lot of young people, especially online young people, some of their main exposure to autism is gonna be through 4chan and Reddit. Like, previously, that would have been unimaginable. If you knew about autism, it was because you watched Rain Man. But the idea that people find out about autism by potentially not very good people as well. Like, potentially through people spouting disgusting views, you know, like, really terrible things. But that might be what people's perception of autism is in the mainstream. I don't think media has caught up with that yet because I don't think television and film media has caught up with the internet, like, whatsoever. No, definitely. It does tend to be sort of miles ahead of the mainstream. It's like the internet is sort of the explorers. And then when they find a new colony or an idea, then the mainstream follows it, yeah. The front tip. I think probably in the next 30 years, we might begin to see that change as people are age of the people making television programs. Or autistic people leading autistic organisations. Not just that. I feel like our generation because... There's this term called infobis when you become, like, obese on information. Like, we are a generation that have adapted to us absorbed data all the time. And I think it's made us... It's made us just more aware than other generations were about things because we're constantly exposed to it. I mean, like, I'm not sure trans people would be discussed as widely as they are now. If, like, if the internet hadn't come about, communities would have existed in, like, specific places. Like, you would have had to go somewhere to meet, like... Well, yeah, but, like, also just because there were only a few places that were, like, secure for certain kinds of people. And I think so about autism. I don't know if autism has ever really had that as a group. I don't think there's been, like, a place where autistic... Like, lots of autistic people went and gathered. I think from experience, a lot of the... It's never like a specific place. It's either on Instagram, it's sort of like a circle of people, autistic people putting out content and they sort of link up with each other and inform these... I'd say sort of, like, blocked off groups. Most people... They marketed their content towards autistic people and then autistic people follow them and then... They're sort of a group made out of that and then I suppose you've got the Facebook groups, which give people an opportunity to sort of talk to other people and share opinions and all that. I think we do have that to some extent. People talk about the internet being alienating and isolating, it's funny to think that for autistic people, it's probably... Yeah, yeah. ...probably knighted autistic people more than anything else has. But yeah, I guess I just mean, like, as we grow up and we're the people in charge of things, just because we are the age two and the other people are probably unfortunately passed away because, like, that's the nature of life, it will start to leak in to things. Your documentary is... Just demonstrates this. Any media that is being made and perpetuated about autism means that it is leaking through. But the thing is, if it's only on YouTube, I'm not disputing that YouTube is a massive platform and used by, like, billions of people, of course it is, but, like, you know, if science on BBC One, on a prime-time slot, you have a guaranteed audience all across the UK, which is not something you necessarily have with, like, a YouTube channel. You have an audience, but, like, that audience could come from, like, all different parts of the world, do you know what I mean? And it could be all different ages, which it's not a negative thing. You don't have the certainty of it, like, being viewed by lots of A-group of people. Yes, it's not saying that you'll get the numbers up. Yes. A lot of people here are doing some really good work on these social media platforms, raising awareness and sort of sharing their experiences. But unless we can get it to be talked about in the mainstream eye, there's not really a chance of... Breaking through, yeah. Yeah, breaking through and having a positive impact and a social change. But let me ask you this. What sort of main changes do you think would combat this problem that we have with, sort of, equitation mark inclusivity? Well, I think the awkward thing that no one ever wants to talk about is that the industry is... Like, the film and TV industry is incredibly corrupt. It could be a small group of people together in a room saying, like, well, you're going to make the next big hit. And, like, sometimes it opens up to, like, a few new people, but it's pretty stationary. And the people that are most welcome, the people who've been to Oxbridge or they've, like, gone to the right acting school. Yeah. But it goes beyond that because you could say, well, that's not a problem for, like, a lot of people, though. There's loads of people who are evidence that that's not entirely true. And, yeah, there are a few examples of people managing to get on TV without having all the support and money of other people. But, you know, think of a TV executive. They are rivaling probably lots of different streaming services, lots of different TV channels to make the next big thing. And it can't just be the next big thing. It's got to be the next big thing for, like, years and years to come. They need to be absolutely sure that it's going to make a profit. Yeah. And if it doesn't make a profit, it's worthless to them. Try briefing them with your concept for, like, sitcom, like, all about autistic people or written by autistic people, like, with all autistic actors. Not appealing. That is not an appealing idea because the likelihood in their mind of that, making a profit, that being, like, a sure sell, no, it's not happening. You know, I do sort of... I feel like some of the attempts of organisations or people to breach that gateway to it being talked about a lot, it's always, like, superficial stuff. And I think when we had our little chat, we talked about the Manchester Students' Union with the jazz hands and the clapping, is, you know, that's sort of like... It's good in a way that it gets some exposure. Well, the irony of it is that, like, Piers Morgan was talking about that. So the irony is it broke into the mainstream, but what broke into the mainstream wasn't that autistic people need to be acknowledged and the way we live needs to be adapted so that everyone can be included. That's not what broke through. What broke through is, how dare you say I can't class? How is that positive? I know, it's... All that was created was outrage. So what happened is people... It didn't force people to think, maybe I should make more of an effort to accommodate people in my life. It did the opposite. It made people hostile. It was like, oh, so it's the bad disabled people once again trying to ruin everyone's fun. That's what happened. Yeah, well, it's just... It's not something that's gonna, you know, be quite big on the hands, but it's also something that makes a good headline. What I'd say is I think if we want to see change, like, there are people out there who, like, want stuff like this to work, people like us, you've got BBC Free and Channel 4, both doing initiatives to try and get new people on to telly that have never been on telly before, and not just get them on to telly, but get them, like, full series. And I'm not just talking, like, comedy series, like documentary series, you know? A channel that no one talks about, but, like, it's one of the best channels that I've seen for, like, opening up to people is BBC Alba. No one knows about it. No one watches it, basically. But it is, like, a BBC channel that is entirely in Gaelic. They only show TV programmes made in Gaelic. And you'd think, like, you'd think, oh, that's got to be, like, why would I be interested in that? I've watched some of the best programming that I've seen in years on BBC Alba. The best programming, like, the best travel programmes, the best history documentaries. I'm not saying, like, we need to demand that the BBC have, like, an autistic channel. But if BBC Alba can do it, surely we can, you know? But it's funny that you mentioned that because about, like, BBC Free and BBC One, because I actually, I recently interviewed a guy called Barry, who, have you seen the video, What Not Said to an Autistic Person? It's quite a popular one, but he's in that video. And it is a bit of a crazy video, but I suppose that does... I mean, it got lots of views. It got upwards of about 3 million views. And it was aired on BBC One. But again, it's taken that angle of winging again. It's like, oh, you shouldn't say to me, don't say this to me. It's not about getting personalities on to telly and having chats with them and discussing things. It's all about, oh, look at these people, winging. Well, I think we'll say, like... But we've got to maybe also, like, in some ways, if I really let myself get bogged down about telly stuff like the Big Bang Theory, and I recommend reading this article by a guy called David Hartley, who also went to the University of Manchester and wrote a novel, a fantasy novel about autism for his dissertation, which I thought was really cool. He's done an article on representation in autism, which is really worth reading. What was the book called? Because I've recently read a book called The Speed of Dark. I don't think it's... No, it's like... I think it literally has autism in the title, but I can't... I'm really sorry, I can't remember. His name is David Hartley. We'll put it down in the description for people to click on. In the bio. Yeah, in the bio for people to look on. But I just wanted to say, like... although TV and film are obviously important, we've got to remember that it's not the only media that exists. And there are... I'd say music is weirdly very diverse, and you find a lot of people who have conditions in music, they speak openly about it, and it's pretty progressive, actually, because I think the only problem is people just simply don't know, and people don't watch the interviews, you know? But you've got people like David Byrne, the frontman of Talking Heads. I believe he's done a TED talk on autism. He's just a really nice guide of the representative of autism. I told my colleague today that Gary Newman was autistic, and he had no idea. But these are people that are well-known people. They're not nothing. They're very much within the mainstream and they're autistic. If more attention was paid to people like that, I think that that could be a way of achieving progress. And then there's other forms of fiction, there's autistic artists. So, if you feel bad, if you've watched a terrible episode, I've never watched atypical or the A-word, I actively don't... The Good Doctor, which is, I think, one of the newest sort of autism-related. Yeah, I haven't watched it. My brother's watched it, and he said that he's going to lend me a... Oh, he recommended it? Yeah, well... Oh, wow. I think it probably is good. It's just... I'm very sort of tentative around choosing to watch something that's about autism, because I don't want it to infuriate. Yeah, it just infuriates me, it's like... And they highlight things that, you know, sort of to do with sort of the medical. You can tell that the writers have just gone through and just briefly sort of skimmed through what autism's about. Well, why don't we talk about tropes then? Because I feel like that's just... Even if it's briefly, talking about the tropes in media about autism, because I think that's one of the key things that they get wrong. I think often autistic characters aren't universal characters. What makes a character a universal character? Well, I'd say making them the protagonist. And the reason for that is because, like, formally, the reason you have a protagonist is the protagonist should be the main person that you spend most time with on screen or on the page. It's the person that you're most supposed to, like, sympathise with or understand. So if you want to make someone a universal character, you make them the protagonist, but also, like, there's someone who has a lot of different characteristics and you, by spending time with them, you get to learn about, like, all their different behaviours. The intricacies. The intricacies. I think one of the main sort of, I guess, protagonists in sort of mainstream kind of film would be that of Newt from The Fantastic Beasts. Eddie Redmayne plays Newt really well and from what I've gathered from sort of researching around it, because I made a video on YouTube about it. And he portrays, you know, the typical sort of Asperger's personality, not personality, but he portrays an autistic character extremely well. I think Newt is an interesting one, because, like, in the main part, I would say I don't really enjoy that film. But I think, I mean, like, I think one of the best things that Newt achieves is actually, like, men can be effeminate and it not be terrible. Yeah, yeah, I suppose. Which I, like, I think that's, I wouldn't necessarily say that, like, I really identified with Newt, but I think it was, like, the best thing about that film. And seeing as, like, representation is in such a state, I would agree with you, like, it does fulfill the whole making someone the protagonist, featuring, like, elements of, like, a disabled personality, but without, like, making it, like, that is all they are. Yeah, it has to be sort of intertwined in there. But the problem with that, again, is that if it's intertwined in there and it's not about, it's not singly about autism, then it, a lot of people don't know. Autism is a side issue, which is, like... It's like the extra reading, it's, like, in the blogs and stuff. You can do that once people have a cultural understanding of what autism is in the first place, agree. And, like, it's the, I'd say, like, my example of that is Saganoran from The Bridge. And I think, like, I can't stress this enough, like, if you haven't watched it, especially as a woman, like, watch it. And also, like, not especially if you're a woman, because in many ways, like, Saganoran achieves, like, being the universal character, whether you are a man, young, old, autistic, not autistic, she's deeply sympathetic. You spend the time with her on screen and you're like, oh, my God, you're so engrossed in her story, and that's fantastic, but, like, they do also, I would agree, like, with Newt. They make similar mistakes for Saga. Also, like, I don't think they completely escape, like, the disability is, like, the thing you use for comic effect. It's like, because it's a crime series, a lot of it is very, very dark and kind of sad. And it's like, I guess we'll do a joke about her misreading situation. Yeah. I don't want people to not find autism funny, because autism is funny. I find autism funny. Make sure you silly things. But, like, it being, like, the main source of comedy is a problem. What I brought today as an example of, I mean, it's never explicit, like, there's no, like, oh, this is an autistic character, but it is a character that I would deem autistic, is the character of the snork from the novel Comet in Moominland, which I had the luxury of reading when I was in hospital last year. I had it by my bed and I read the entire thing. And the last time I'd read it was when I was, like, a tiny child, so I'd forgotten most of it. But, like, finding the snork, I was like, oh, my God, this just is an autistic character. And, like, there's just this specific bit. It was a long time before the snork came back with the wood. Well, there you are at last, said his sister. It took quite a time, said the snork, because, of course, I had to find pieces that were all exactly the same length. Is he always so particular? Ask Snufkin. He was born like that, said Snork Maiden. And then it's just like, they just move on to the next thing. That's the mention of that. And then, like, throughout the book, like, he's one of the characters who makes, like, the funniest observations. It's because of, like, his determination and his organisational skills. Like, although he's annoying sometimes and, like, they get bothered with him being, like, obsessive about getting things right, it's because of that that they survive like an apocalypse. So it's, I think there is, like, a difference between autistic comedy and making comedy from autistic traits. Like, instead of, oh, that was awkward. Kind of the moment that makes people laugh. It's actually genuine differences and some more intricate and more, sort of, well-developed humour around it. That's what it's missing, I think, in sort of things like the Big Bang Theory and Atypical and all of those kind of things. Well, the absurdity of Bing Bang Theory. Bing Bang Theory. The absurdity of... The absurdity of destroy this TV programme and let it be forgotten forever. Oh. The absurdity of the Big Bang Theory is that Jim Parsons, who plays Sheldon Cooper, researched autism thoroughly and spent time with autistic people and cares about autistic people. He's on the record saying and doing this. I did not know that. Yeah, and he got into disputes with the writers because he was like, the way that you're representing this character is not good. And they basically ignored him. So you have this... And it's so... Like, I'll reference this clip that, like, I watched just before I came onto the podcast because I've seen it before and I remembered it and I was like, this is a clip that needs to be mentioned if we're talking about representation. It's called literally on YouTube. Sheldon imitates Howard, the imitation petibation. It's bizarre because... So Howard, who is supposedly a friend of Sheldon in series, it consists of him like entirely parodying Sheldon but he's not just like making fun of Sheldon. Like, I could make fun of you, Tom. I could be like... I mean, I can't think of funny things specifically about kickboxing but I'm sure with enough effort I could. Kiki-kiki, flicky-flicky. But it wouldn't be offensive, do you know what I mean? Howard's parodying of Sheldon is entirely offensive. It's just, ha-ha, your disability is funny and should be marked. But he basically is like you trying to upset me. While they're still in sitcom mode, it's like someone, like a normal person, has been sat in a sitcom and has a sitcom happening around them while they respond like totally realistically, you have an actor who's trying to do a good representation of autism and I would say Jim Parsons achieves that and it actually makes the program that bit more upsetting because it's so much more like actually watching an autistic person be harassed. When Sheldon like stands up for himself in the series and like says, no, you shouldn't treat me like this, they all act like, oh, what's wrong with you? Like it was obviously a joke, like are you being so bitter about it? And it just, it makes it a very strange thing to watch. It's not, it would be a lot more simple if Jim Parsons was completely bad at acting like an autistic person. If Jim Parsons didn't resemble an autistic person at all and it was like bad all round, it would easier to just be like, this is just bad. But the fact that Jim Parsons is kind of real is what sort of makes it worse. Yeah, yeah, it's sort of the possibility of it is it could be a lot more than it is. Well, it could be like Sheldon could be a good character. I think in some ways Sheldon is a good character and I'm sure there are probably like, I read an article about how once the big bang theory was aired, there was a huge rise in America in diagnoses of autism. Really? So it obviously, yeah. So it obviously did reach people. It obviously mattered to people. And that means I have a difficult relationship with it because I hate it, I can't stand it. But you also can't just simply say, all it is is bad and it's done nothing good for representation. There is kind of a theme with all of these sort of examples that we're giving. And the theme is that, yeah, it's sort of doing some good, but it's not driving home the real important things that need to be noticed. And that's because it's not led by autistic people. No, exactly. But because autistic people have been like, thrown out of their own party. And then like, I feel like the worst examples of stuff like, I'm afraid to say like the A word because the main autistic person is like the child. They're kind of not the most important thing in the series. The most important thing in the series is the drama that happens in the family. The interaction between the other people. Yeah, and they're like, you know, once again, it's like, oh, the autistic person isn't really a person. And if they are a person like, the most person they are is like, an undeveloped person, a child. You mentioned to me that since the documentary you've sort of had your views on autism and sort of the topics around it have changed a little bit since the actual filming a bit. I know you mentioned at the start that you sort of, you were a bit giddy on the information. But like, what sort of, in what sort of way have your views changed on it? Could you sort of explain that to us a little bit? The way my views have changed is that I think, and I don't think I meant to do it, but when you first interviewed me, I put quite an emphasis on like, autistic people can be normal. And I think there's a problem with that because why should you strive to be normal? And why is an autism normal? Yeah, abnormality is normal. If it's my life, if it's your life and it's our everyday life and it's many people's everyday lives, why do we have to be normal? Because we are normal. I mean, it's not like, if it was the other way around expecting people to behave more autistically, that would be absurd, wouldn't it? Yes. You know, if I expected non-autistic people to be more autistic around me, I think they'd be like, you're ridiculous. But that's accepted in our society. And it's so accepted that in places like America, it drives people to send their kids to institutions and be abused. That's not right. No. I guess I've thought a lot more about like, what does autistic activism mean? What does standing up for autism mean? And like, what does it mean to be autistic? And I'd say like, don't feel weighed down by a medical diagnosis or lack thereof. Obviously, if you don't have a diagnosis, accessing support is almost impossible. So in some ways, like, yes, it is a good thing, but thing is, is the reason you need the support as much as you do often in the first place is because you've already lived as an autistic person and had like all the struggle and all the problems of being an autistic person. Like you never had to have a diagnosis to go through that. But when you need to deal with the consequences of that, that's when you need an official diagnosis. I think that's a hypocrisy. I don't want autistic people to be self-conscious anymore. I don't want autistic people to constantly live in anxiety about how they behave and the sort of people they are. I want the effort to be coming from the other side. A little bit of helps from the other side. A little bit of helps, exactly. And that was one of the things that we touched on quite a lot when we were doing the actual interview. Yes, yeah. I'm just having a look through this sort of notes because I did sort of watch our interview back very recently. Well, I mean, I'm glad you did. It's like, it's funny, it's funny to think that it happened what, like, almost a year ago now? Yeah, probably more, probably more than that. Like it was a, it's quite a bit of time away. It doesn't feel like it's that long, but I guess that's one thing that happens when you... Getting old. Well, how do you feel about, like, what happens if, you know, all of the efforts from the media relations team and the National Autistic Society promoting this documentary? How do you feel if it does become a big thing and that maybe it could be this big thing? And we, the individuals as part of the documentary could have a large impact if they wanted to on society. How would you feel about that? To be entirely selfish about it, entirely selfish. If someone like Chris Packham took notice of it, which I also think would be a great idea, call out to Chris Packham, maybe even at him at some point. Am I at Chris Packham on Twitter? Yeah, well, we'll have to, we'll have to, like... What, like a full-scale attack on, like, all public autistic figures? Yes, yes. Take notes with me. You can head it, Esme. You can be that side to the promotion. The militant autistic. I feel like it's the most frustrating thing about it. And this is how I felt coming onto the podcast, is for people who are already autistic, this isn't news. We're just saying things that they already know and feel and have seen. Yeah, if you're autistic, like, this is standard, and it's not that complicated, but it's made complicated by the lack of access that actually non-autistic people have to autistic people. It's funny to say that it's non-autistic people who have less access, but that's true. It's the same in the Instagram community and stuff. It's quite easy to, you know, get a following of autistic people because, you know, what we say is relatable, and it's searched for. Also, you're looking for it as an autistic person. Yeah, but that market of non-autistic people needs to be in some way tapped into. It just has to be in order for it to become something big. Like, in the spirit of that, I'm going to, like, I'll do a shout-out to one of the first things that I encountered. It actually came directly from reading the BBC article about the bridge in Sargonoran. It had Laura James in it. It links, I believe, that article to Laura James giving an interview on the Outch podcast, which is a BBC podcast, like, which is all about disability and stuff. That was quite influential to me because it was the first person, the first literal voice I heard of a woman talking about autism. And the shame of that is, like, you know, I was talking about it's hard enough getting onto the BBC. Well, that's on the BBC. Like, you can go listen to it now. But how many people have heard of it? No one. Yeah, that's the problem, isn't it? It's got to be viral, and I think the reason why I've decided to put the documentary out at this time is because it links into a lot of current affairs. Everyone's at home as well. And there's also a lot of talk about disabilities and Covid. And we've got the whole thing with Anne Hagerty that happened a couple, probably about a few years ago, talking about autism on a celebrity. And then you've also got Greta Funberg, who's obviously leading quite a big campaign in terms of climate change. And I think whatever you think of Greta Funberg, I mean, I can't, I just can't. I, my heart, I really, OK, I do want to come off as though I'm saying she's a tragedy because I'm not. I'm not saying she's a tragedy. I'm saying, like, I've gone through very stressful and difficult things in my life. But I was lucky in that I was able to deal with them well enough. I got myself like in a safe place and I was an adult for most of it. I was not a child. I was not a child and I didn't have, like, what must feel like the whole world against me? Yeah. Well, there's that there's a lot of there's a lot of publicity around sort of people getting like, oh, why is Greta Funberg being this this this voice and stuff? And it's like it's as if people don't see the intention behind it. And although, yeah, she probably, you know, doesn't have as much knowledge as like a climate scientist and stuff. But at least she's speaking out about she's speaking out about. Yeah, I feel like what? When whenever has like being the most educated on saying being the thing that matters most? Yeah, I mean, like, I'm not I'm not going to say that Thomas Payne wasn't an educated man because that's just not true. He was. But like, what made common sense such an influential piece of work and motivate people to rebel against the English monarchy, which is a pretty big thing to do? The reason that happened is because it is a motive. It's passionate. You can tell that Thomas Payne believes in the cause and you can't help. But you can't help but feel that reading it. You can't you just can't shut yourself off to it. And I think like people ask, why is Donald Trump the president of America? He never seems like he's not being entirely himself. And I think people really like that. People like it when they think someone's being themselves. Strength of character. And I feel like like people aren't attacking Graf Ernberg because she's not academic. They're not attacking her because of like any practical legitimate reason. It's it's they're attacking her personality. And she's like it's not right. And also there's a lot to say people complain about like the representation of the super crib. So like a disabled person who's like so exceptional, like the one disabled person who like isn't a burden, isn't like a scrounger. You know, like Paralympians, for example, they're like they're not like the other ones. I when Graf Ernberg started to become popular, like the Guardian wrote these articles about like, oh, what an inspiration she is. And I'm like, autistic people don't exist to be inspirational to you. It's like that she's not. She's not an exception. No, that's that's a funny thing. Like, like she's she's definitely not the exception at all at any sort of level. She is just. In my eyes, regular old Aspie, like which is which is just a human being. And like she is complain people complain. Like, oh, why why is she the one leading the movement? Like she's not an adult and she says herself. Like, why am I being the one made to take responsibility for everything that the environmental movement represents? I'm literally a child. Like, yeah, this the the fact that it's me and not an adult is disgusting. And I think that's that's the whole like driving force to the whole campaign. But it's just funny that it's funny that that people don't pick up on that. And it's it's I think a lot of that is that. She's she's not the best speaking English. And like, like, I mean, she's Swedish. Yeah, exactly. I can't speak Swedish. And I'm being autistic and being a kid and being on such a massive platform. Like, of course, she's good. And they were saying that she cries crocodile tears. It's like, for God's sake, she's making it up for. I mean, I'm going to OK, I'm going to bring up. I'm going to bring up some people might be like, what are you talking about? And it is a bit like, have you watched Tiger King? No, I haven't. I haven't. So like the main appeal of Tiger King appears to be like, look how weird these people are. And a lot of the people in Tiger King have disabilities. Joe Exotic has a disability. And I'm not going to speculate that Joe Exotic is autistic, but like he has tics. He's not like entirely socially competent. Like he may not be autistic, but like he's also not like he clearly can't like conform. Do you know what I mean? Like he just he can't do it. The people at that park, most of them were like homeless, had like being addicted to drugs or like ex-convict. And that park was that their home for like many years. And they loved it for the first time in their life. Like a lot of people in it say like, I felt happy. I was doing something I wanted to do and I'd never known that. And that's what like that's what Joe Exotic maybe maybe not to credit Joe Exotic Joe Exotic too much because he's not like a great person all of the time. But like it was his park that like meant people could have that. Yeah. Jeff Lowe, this like really terrible human being entirely takes advantage of Joe Exotic. And because of Jeff Lowe's actions, the animals stop being fed. Everything goes wrong. These people who have this has been their home and one of them, like this this woman, like her arm was bitten off from by a tiger. She could have had her arm reconstructed, but she decides to go back to what she gets her arm amputated and goes back to work the next day because she doesn't want the park to look bad. Right. All of these people, they have everything taken away from them. And not because of any action they did, not because of anything wrong they did, but because of the selfish, terrible actions of other people. And the thing is, is like the thing that like made me so upset about the conclusion of that program is so much of it is to do with the fact that they aren't the sort of people that society is OK with. It's not because of the things they did. It's because people were uncomfortable with it. There's there were other people doing things like much worse, like much, much worse. Right. There's this one guy, Doc Antle, which like was basically enslaving women and like continues to do it. Right. At his park. But he's he's got a way, Scott, free. Joe and the people that he worked with got indicted. Everything taken away from them. And predominantly like disabled or queer, not welcome people. And the fact that like Tiger King is like mainly a source of entertainment to people, like I find upsetting because it's more than that. It is a piece that highlights some issues and it highlights struggles and and problems within a certain community, I guess. I feel like on the other side, though, I hope that some people watch it and they're like, this is wrong. And I hope I hope some people, like me, attach themselves to these people and I like this isn't right. I mean, it's also like the federal government in that program don't come out looking well. But this is the merit is it is American, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you know did you watch Chris Morris's latest film? No, I actually to be honest, I've been so bogged down with all the documentary stuff I haven't done anything. Like I haven't watched any films. You were living in isolation before it was cool. Yeah, pretty much. Autistics run the place now. No social distancing is mandatory. No talking to people, getting close to people, get out of my way, walking down the street, partways. Yeah. Oh, God, I used to I used to hate walking to uni and like everyone just looked so good all the time. And I was like, oh, my God, like this is just this is just an anxious situation like that. Me walking up in an extra large t-shirt and pair of gray rits tracksuits. I'm like, yeah, I don't care. Yeah, but at least you were like, at least you were like physically fit, like. I know I was not fit. I wouldn't call myself physically fit. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. No, I was I was practically anorexic, like I was awful. Yeah, but I mean, like you weren't like what people like mock. Yeah, you know, I mean, you weren't like chubby, like people. I mean, like just if you if you're like poor, don't have good taste in clothes or like not, don't have the body type that's like approved of in society, maybe reconsider going to the University of Manchester. Hot take. I would love to like continue chatting for ages. And it's it's really nice to have a chat about these these issues just to sort of round round up some free sort of main important points that you want to drive home. What what would you say those points are? Like what do you want people to take away from the podcast? I think to take away from the podcast is that there is reason to be optimistic. Try your best to be optimistic, even in the face of bad things to try to maintain hope. It's and I mean, if you're autistic, that's probably going to be one of your best traits. Don't punish yourself for that. Also, don't think that the way that you express yourself has to be purely through the the lens of having a disorder because you want a disorder, you are a person and try to think of yourself as a person as much as you possibly can. That's probably the second thing I would say. Third thing I would say is documentary is very good and I mean that sincerely. The documentary is very good. I really enjoyed participating in it. I think I think everyone did and I hope the documentary I hope the documentary goes places because it deserves to. I hope so. One can hope. One can help, definitely. Well, after it at Chris Packham will. Yeah, you can be my you can be my militant, my militant autistic. So I kick. So we round up with the last question then. Oh, there's another one. OK, there is. Yeah, there is. I mean, to be honest, like often like the the the structure of the podcast is that we sort of go through, you know, general questions, but I think that if possible, the dialogue should be flowing as much as possible and talk around the issue. Yeah, like I guess it's sort of a bit. Yeah, it's a little bit different to the sort of the usual podcast that that go on, but I suppose that's that's a good thing. And it's nice to have these conversations. It's how I prefer it. I don't like. Yeah, I mean, if I if I wanted it to be like formal and structured, I'd listen to like BBC Radio 4. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, definitely. Three minutes. What does autism mean to you as me? Hell of a lot. I I just hope I I really, really, really hope we get to say what it means because I'm honestly terrified. That it's the legacy of the Spurger and and pretty not not great people. They want. I don't want people who are not only like uninformed about autism, but like bad at talking about it to be the people who say what autism is. And unfortunately, like that that's the history of autism. Like from Sasha Baron Cohen, Sasha Baron Cohen. Well, yeah, well, like Hansa Spurger, a nice Nazi scientist. And what what would you say? What would you if you in an ideal world? What would you sort of if you could boil down what autism is? What would you want it to be? What would you want people's reaction to? It's not a problem. It's like you like me. Great. Like it it's it's just it's not an obstacle. It's a difference. Well, maybe not even a difference. It's just like this is a state of life. I don't single out horse riders. I don't like say we should treat horse riders a different way because like who rides horses weird? It's weird to ride horses or be into horses. Men all I not only do I think we should single these people out, but I think we should put them in special institutions away from the rest of the world where they can't like talk to people. And I don't think we should like let them write anything or do anything because it like might disrupt the rest of non horse riding society. If you think that's absurd, welcome. So my ideal is it's it's just we don't even have to have this conversation. Thank you very much for that. Brilliant. So as me, I know we've sort of briefly gone over the links and stuff. I do know know that you you'd like you not much into the the whole sort of social media kind of side to things. So would it be would it be safe to say that if someone wants to ask you a question, they can email me and I can forward it to you. I wouldn't mind doing like a Q&A of some sort. Yeah, if like all the questions were like forward to me, forward. We could do that. For forward the stuff to my email address if you've got any questions for as me, as me. Ah, God, damn it. As me, as me. The horrible thing is, is that Esme Esme is the correct pronunciation, but I hate it. I know. And I was I always call you. Anyway, of course, every everyone who is listening, you can find a blog post that about a blog post. A blog post. You can find the blog. Yes, you can. You can find the blog, the blog post on the Aspergers in society.com website. It's going to be going up, I think, on Tuesday. And I'm I'm hoping to get this this podcast out tomorrow as well. Yeah, with the bat and also the behind the scenes YouTube video as well. Sure, I know you've got a lot of work, but it will all be going out. And obviously, yes, the the documentary will be going live on Wednesday at six p.m. Yeah. And I'm very happy about that. And I'm very much looking forward to it. So if you do want to go check that out, you can either head over to the Aspergers society website or check out my YouTube channel, Aspergers growth. And if you want to sort of get some, you know, behind the scenes info and just see what's going on in on the day to day, you can always check out my social media links, which are at Aspergers growth for Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. And then, of course, if you want to appear on the 40 or two podcast and you've got an interesting story, you can contact me at Aspergers growth at gmail.com. Thank you very much for coming to Crack Out the Champagne Crack Out the Champagne and maybe a bit of cake if you're not an alcoholic. Yeah, celebrate with me. What's the premise? Tell me what your thoughts are. Have you enjoyed the podcasting experience as me? Yeah, I have. It's not too bad, is it? Once you get over the first 10 minutes, it sort of flows a bit more easier. No, once you settle in to be testicle, it's all right. Well, thank you. Thank you very much. I'm always very appreciative of anyone coming on to share their opinions and their experiences. It's been lovely. Thank you very much for listening to you as well, people. Thank you for tuning into the 40 or two podcast. And I'm going to say you're looking lovely today. And I hope that you were getting all of your day. You stay hydrated. Hashtag, hydrate the aspies. Because I find people who are hydrated, you know, 50% more fit than people who, you know, thirsty quite from as me to round up the podcast. Get yourself hydrated. Watch the documentary. Subscribe to the YouTube channel. And I'll see you in the next episode of the 40 or two podcast. Thank you very much, guys. Bye. You can say bye as well. See you later.