 You've now got a copy of an email from the National Symbols Office to a media outlet suggesting that They stop Using a version of the Commonwealth coat of arms, which as you can see is heavily modified And in fact it even has on that coat of arms not the real logo The head of the EMU and the kangaroo are surveillance cameras and the word Australia and is spelled I L I E N that's pretty clearly satire isn't it? Well, it all depends senator if you look at it carefully. I'd agree with you, but of course When it comes to the kind of material with which this bill is concerned What one is can dealing with our Circumstances in which it is unlikely that Recipients of the material will look at it closely. So thank you Attorney as you'll see in this email from the National Symbols officer in the Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet They've asked the relevant media authority to cease using this logo to avoid That media company being mistaken for the Australian government The issue I mean if I if I saw this in my letterbox today, I didn't look carefully at it I'd probably think that's the coat of arms, but if I look carefully at it I'd realize it wasn't so clearly satire as you said earlier It's only clearly satire if you study it. Yes, and I'm not asking you to I looked at it and thought it was the accurate thing until So it's tested by what I thought I would decide is in all the circumstances or whether a Regional person would be capable of being led by how do you tell the difference between genuine satire and non-genuine? So that's a matter for the courts But but you're the one time you're the one bring forward the legislation Yeah, well, we have defined when you must have thought about this as you're driving and we have in the in the legislation Put in the appropriate reasonable tests of reasonableness the application of those tests is always a matter for the courts Well again, what test does one apply to tell the difference between genuine satire and non-genuine satire? Well, there's a prior question and the question is Whether a person in all the circumstances is reasonably capable of being misled and that is a question for the courts Isn't there a risk here that's something like this which as you've Accepted if it's examined closely it could not be found to be anything other than satirical in it If it's examined closely they're looking at it from the distance that I am from you as you hold it up there It just looks like the coat of arms. So that's why I say I might say more about your eyesight than anything else Well, it just looks like the coat of arms, but if you look at it closely, obviously it's It does it's not the coat of arms and it does it does have a satirical flavor So that's why I keep saying it all depends on that applying the test of reasonableness in the circumstances And that's not a matter parliamentary committees. It's a matter for courts. Tonya. I'll go again If you don't mind as as to why you have the words genuine in the offense And what is the difference between every day run of the mill satire and genuine satire and or non-genuine satire? Well, I think that's a very good question senator, which perhaps is best left to a legislative draftsman or to the courts, but I think the word the adjective Is been included by the draftsman to emphasize the fact that it doesn't apply to satire Yes, but it has the word genuine in front of it. That's the adjective to which I'm referring Well, I'm no clearer about any difference between genuine satire and non-genuine satire But lest those proceedings be considered by someone observing to be descending into the satirical Senator McKim neither you nor I are legislative draftsman and But we are legislators both of them indeed and so the choice of the adjective genuine to qualify the noun Satire is a choice by the legislative draftsman, which I assume was made for the purposes of emphasis But this bill has not been progressed through the Senate yet And I'll make a middle note to myself to clarify that issue in my second reading. All right. Thank you attorney