 Here we go. We'll start recording. Well, good morning everybody. Good morning. Hello. Welcome to the Copyright and Online Learning webinar number 57. Number 57. So my name is Chris Morrison. My name is James Hecker. And we are the co-chairs of the Association for Learning Technologies Copyright and Online Learning Special Interest Group, also known as the Coolsig. Yes. The coolest gang there is in the world of online learning, learning technology, and all things educational and research-based. Absolutely. We would say it hasn't been independently verified. But I think all of those of you who have been involved in what we've been up to over the last couple of years would agree. Yes. It's a pretty cool place to be. So welcome, welcome. We've got quite a lot to get through. So I'm going to go back. Happy new year. Happy new year to everyone. Yes. Yes. First webinar of 2023. We've got an exciting lineup, haven't we? We do. So here we go. Friday the 13th, that doesn't necessarily... I think we can ignore all that superstition, since we're going to have a good one today. So we've got a whole bunch of copyright news here, some new podcasts, some new events that are coming up, and some cool things. But the main thing today is an interview where... It's not allowed to interview someone else, is it? No, it's not. No, we're being interviewed. I'm very delighted to have Lewis Pereira, my colleague from City University, who is a senior lecturer in educational development, and he's going to be interviewing us about our chapter in the IFLA Open Access Book, Navigating Copyright for Libraries. Purpose and scope. Love it's purpose and scope. Yep. We are going to be doing that. So, yeah, really... We're going to be talking about copyright education and its relationship to information literacy. Something that we've thought about a little bit. It's very close to our hearts, isn't it? Yes. Yes. Some would say obsessed. Anyway, since we last met, so what have we got here? Things that we've been up to. Just a brief one. So... Shall I go first? What are those little dots? Shall I go first? So this was the idea that my cousin came to visit over New Year, and it was like, shall we go for a New Year's Day swim? So a New Year's Day swim, all very well and good. If you turn up at the wrong time of day, it takes a very, very long time to get it to get it even up past your ankles. Yeah. So that is... Have you got your tide time tables at? Have you? Indeed not. And so you end up just kind of wading out through the freezing cold estuary mud. I did kind of get in at one point, but anyway, that was it. Finally to do some more open water swimming, though, this year. Lovely. Lovely. Lovely. Yes. And you? Well, this is actually the other... This is the other corner of the room. Yes, unfortunately, I was not feeling too great over most of Christmas this year, but I did spend a fair bit of time... Neck and cocktails. I wasn't, actually. But getting my cocktail bar ready so that it's ready to open when I'm fully... Have you been practicing the Tom Cruise thing? That's it, yeah. The ceiling's a little bit low for the spinning of the bottle spin. You just sit down when you do it. Right, okay. We'll just sort of squat on the floor or something. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, yeah. So there we go. That's that corner of the room, and we'll turn this camera around. Everyone could see. We don't want them to see. We don't want them to see what we've got here. No. Okay, lovely. So this is a reminder that all the previous webinars, all other 56... I don't think all 56 are on. No, but most of them are. Most of them are some of the booming clothes. Some of them we prioritized the loading to the YouTube channel. But in fact, there's fantastic content and thanks to all the guests that have joined us so far and made it such an excellent series. So we are on to the next one. Seamless. It's copyright news. It is copyright news. So the first one is well done. I should say well done for having persevered through the editing of a podcast. This is the first of the copyright waterfall podcast that Jane has edited. Very grateful to my colleague at City, Emma, who helped me. I did some podcast editing training with her before Christmas and sort of slightly tore my hair out with audacity a little bit. But got there in the end. But this is such a great one because we're talking to Tanya Todorova as we would describe... I've described her as the godmother of copyright literacy. It was her that started the international project that Jane and I first got involved in that started us on the kind of... Copyright Literacy Journey. The Journey. And this journey took us to Sofia where we spoke to her about her background. Recorded mainly actually... On location. On location, yes. Some of it is recorded at Luton Airport. That's the highlight. It is. It really was a fantastic place to be. And it's a very short podcast as well. It's kind of like a holiday special. Not that we were on holiday course. No, no, no. We were working hard. No, but yeah. People will find it entertaining. And the other thing to say and also the work that you've been putting in over this period where you've been slightly locked down is that you've actually worked out how to get it onto Spotify. Yes. And to say thank you very much for that. Yes, yes. Lewis, are you able to pop the links in the chat for any of these? Now on Spotify. So if that is your favourite platform for podcasts and you haven't checked out there's a whole bunch more coming through in the pipeline lesson. Good stuff. We're getting some interesting analytics as well about the 16 people that have listened to our podcast on Spotify so far. Start somewhere. Right. The next is a piece is an article which is Liba. So Ben White who is part of the Liba Copyrights and Related Rights Group has written this article because there's analysis from which country is it that we're talking about? Finland. Finland. Where they've been looking at the fundamental right to education science and how there is this copy between copyright losses and those restrictive rights and sort of more broadly how can we support access? And it's related to the implementation of the digital single market EU directive in Finland. And again related to the Knowledge Rights 21 programme that Liba are involved with. Interesting piece there to look at what's happening. Watch the space of what's happening in Finland. This is an interesting article as well that came out I think just before the break. This is written by Lisa Hinchliffe and a couple of other authors as well but it's based on some work that she actually presented at Ice Pops in 2019. If you were there you will remember the session she had. She was capturing stuff from that group as well. She was, yes. So it is about copyright education and the role that library associations around the world play in sort of supporting understanding of copyright. There's some interesting conclusions there about patterns around the world and how that varies and what is needed as well and how important copyright is. A good article worth having a look at. So the next one is New Year doesn't just mean cold water swimming and cocktails. It also means in the copyright world that there is a whole group or certain catalogues of work certain authors, creators who because of the date of their death their work has passed into the public domain. So this public domain quite a lot of it is US focused because there are differences depending on which country or jurisdiction you're looking at but Fritz Lang's Metropolis is mentioned here. So if you want to check that out these are works that no longer have can be reused without the need for permission. And there's been some interesting postings as well about the changes to Canadian copyright law that we reported just before Christmas meaning that actually there isn't any works. I think that was because they previously had a 50 year copyright protection. There would have been a whole host of works I think including Tolkien's work that would have gone into the public domain in Canada has them because they've extended the duration of copyright to life plus 70. Interesting stuff on lots of blogs actually about public domain day 2023. Next one, yes so this was a piece that has been published a sort of call to action from Creative Commons around global open culture and it's aimed particularly at policymakers so you have a look at the link on that one we're often following work and lobby and work that Creative Commons are doing and obviously this builds on some of the things we talked about last year at Ice Pops in Doug & Andrew's keynote about the kind of whole open glam movement and access to culture so that's just an interesting advocacy piece that Creative Commons have done recently thought that was worth highlighting and the final news item here is a Twitter thread that I first picked up on because Charles Oppenheim tweeted it and it's actually the person who wrote the poem that comes at the end of Minecraft if you didn't know Minecraft had an end did you? No I didn't. You just thought it was just wandering around chopping down trees and leaving things and running away from scary monsters but there is a game that you can play and this is a copyright element to this because he wrote it for the developer when it was an independent game and then subsequently that was acquired by Microsoft and this is the author of that poem which decides to dedicate it to the Commons as part of a sort of public declaration of their own desire to do that but also it's a really interesting reflection on what happens when you have a legal situation with a large corporate multinational organisation claiming or not even necessarily explicitly asserting the rights in something that you have created and what's the interplay between an individual creator, someone who has done something and then something that is such a sort of multi-billion dollar industry so an interesting thread there that I thought you might be interested in following up if you do, it's also useful to have examples of how things play out in practice when you're doing your teaching around copyright and I thought this was a good one because he talks very much about actually in this case Microsoft is silent, they're not responding and it's that sort of the fear that comes from well if they did take legal action so just thought that would be useful yeah, thank you Lois for putting all our links in so without further ado so we're returning to... the book, I have it on my knee in front of us in a moment we'll get rid of the slides so everyone can actually see us rather than just the book but yeah chapter 13 is the one we're going to get into in a moment what could go wrong exactly so we're delighted to thank Lois for joining us Lois is also a senior in education development of City, works alongside you but he's got some really great insights from his background in media and information literacy as well so we're looking forward to this very much and that's us we've introduced ourselves to the outset but just for those if anybody doesn't know us the copyright and licensing specialist at the Bodleian Library at the University of Oxford yes and I'm a senior lecturer at City University and I'm also the program director of our masters in academic practice okay so hello Lois welcome Hi Jane, hi Chris, hi everyone thanks for joining the session today and Chris and Jane I'm delighted to be part of this webinar and thanks for inviting me to interview both it's quite a responsibility and I know it's a cliche but I believe this will be more of a conversation or discussion than a formal interview obviously I have to say I did enjoy reading your chapter so very well done both of you they called it a PhD Viver didn't they the other day well I said is this going to be a Viver I'm happy to do that but it's entirely up to you Jane you have the chapter in front of you I do draw your attention to page 120% I guess my first question and might be of interest for everyone here is about the motivation, the reasons not only to write this chapter but also how you got involved with the topics you talk about in this chapter okay shall we start shall I start, shall I start yes okay I'll try and keep it a brief answer because I think quite a lot of people probably do know some of this I do mention it in the podcast with Tanya Todorova so a lot of people know my background I worked for a long time at LSE London School of Economics and I had two main roles one of which was writing copyright advice and guidance for staff and for students and another role that was around developing actually online information literacy and working with the library team and for quite some time I didn't really see that the two parts of my job were really I knew they were related at a high level but I didn't see there was a direct relationship between the two things until in I think it was 20 when I was at the European Conference of Information Literacy and ended up in a session where Tanya Todorova was speaking about some research she'd done about what she called copyright literacy and she was talking about the survey results and talking about how copyright kind of fit in this sort of broader understanding of information literacy and I think that for me was sort of quite a light bulb moment because as I say up until then I'd been not necessarily seeing the two things that I did as particularly interlinked I was really involved in information literacy and in the information literacy group and I knew that lots of people that I would talk to that were information literacy experts would kind of go oh yeah yeah that's copyright I try to avoid that really we have a specialist that deals with it so I was kind of aware that I was relatively unique in sort of working in those two areas and I think one of the things that for me I wanted to do in writing this chapter was to try to explain how the two areas are really very interlinked and you know I think once that had been kind of made clear to me once I'd seen that back in 2014 and Chris and I did the research into levels of understanding and copyright literacy amongst librarians it kind of I don't know lots of things fell into place I think for me and yeah so I felt like the chapter was a really good opportunity to try to consolidate a lot of the things I've been thinking about since that little light bulb moment so we've got a light bulb that's not working yet we bought some new lights today anyway but you might want to say a bit about how we got involved in writing the chapter in the book as well for me I'm reflecting on the fact that my background prior to working in education and in libraries was working within the creative industries so I worked for a music collecting society called PRS for music so I saw things very much from the rights holder perspective and when it came to talking about copyright education the industry creative industries, music, film, gaming whatever they have a different perspective on that than educators and librarians and I want since we've been working together in this area clearly there's it's a difficult subject to teach copyright in some ways because it's complexity and some of the things we pick up in the chapter and explain why that is and people want to see it as something that's quite clear and rigid that they can get a handle on and in fact often it isn't and there are broader reasons why but I think when we were writing this I wanted it to be some of those tensions between those things really wanted to get it out and have this encompassing what is it that we've been talking about is copyright literacy really a thing of the chapter we went quite deep into it back and forth and several redrafts I think it's quite different from where it started off because it was quite an involved process wasn't it it was and most of the writing we actually did around the end of last year didn't we I think the end of the year before last, end of 2021 oh right yes it was even longer ago than that yes it's taken along 2023 yes yes yeah no you're right I just remember it was quite painful writing it over that Christmas break and doing a lot of redrafting and then we had a whole process where it went off of the peer review but I mean we you know we know people who work at IFNA and we were really delighted they invited us I think that's really a great context and background about your interests and it's also interesting to know a bit more about the writing process because I can imagine a very intense discussion around these concepts and also self-reflection about your context and what you have been doing over the last years in your chapter you say that copyright is a highly contested space that sense and Chris somehow was already alluding to this how can you create a copyright education or a copyright literacy field or is that the thing what are the challenges basically yeah I think it's an interesting one because in some ways I think we are describing things that are already more in place there already are communities of copyright educators particularly coming from the library field who are already providing this kind of critical reflection so we weren't necessarily someone saying there needs to be a new thing that needs to be created it was more the recognition of what it is that's going on we give some case studies of our approach to it and part of it is these webinars and what we've been doing here but I think it's something that's common to all all the literacies isn't it it's that you're not necessarily trying to create a new literacy which is bigger than the other ones it's the debate that's going on all the time it's trying to build the bridges between different groups who are already doing things that are in support of not falling into the traps of people just need to know X, Y and Z and then everything would be better and they need to actually reflect the needs of different communities Yeah and can I just pick up on the thing about the contested space as well because I think that for me is it's I think one of the things that when you talk to people about copyright is they'll often say well what are the rules just explain it to me and it is much more similar to the aspects of literacy where maybe there aren't necessarily right and wrong answers and I mean maybe when you teach about plagiarism there are some quite clear things that you say you don't do this but in lots of other areas where people are learning how to do research and use information sources there's a whole variety of ways that you can do things and a lot of what you're trying to develop is people's critical abilities to you know be a lifelong learner and to make decisions themselves and I think that's where it's really it's a bit of a shift if you see copyright just as somebody comes to you saying can I do this yes no and you act as a gatekeeper then you're kind of never really helping them become self-sufficient and understand enough about it and so even though there is a little bit of what I think I mean librarians want to do it but any teacher wants to in some ways you know you don't want you don't want people to feel confused you want to sort of explain a body of knowledge in a way that is clear you want it to appear you know that there is there is some kind of rule there are theories there are sort of things that should and shouldn't be done particularly when you're teaching a more practical subject but I think we sort of have to expose the tensions that exist in any difficult subject you know you can't just sort of say well this is the law and this is what it says therefore this is what you should do I think you have to address the fact that for many people the way that copyright doesn't make a huge amount of sense to them because it's become so big and all encompassing and it affects many aspects of their life in ways that don't necessarily always you know align with kind of got a photo I want to share it I want to do this I want to do that so you know exposing the tensions is actually I think really important part of copyright education and exposing the fact that there are different views about what copyright even you know I always say to people copyright is not it's not like gravity it was created by humans and it works in different ways and given that it was created in a particular way we have to think about who created it and what purpose it was created to serve and to question that so that's quite a long winded answer but I think it being a contested space means it's an exciting place for teaching as well absolutely and picking up on this idea of multiple literacies you mentioned in your chapter I think in my opinion you present a very balanced perspective of digital and media literacy in other forums you can see or it's very common to see an acclamation of the benefits of such literacies without mentioning the perils and I know this word is not well accepted but my point is that if you think about people spreading misinformation or using copyright in a different way might be because they have actually very good communication skills and they are literate my point is should the ethical aspect be at the centre of the process in all these literacies I mean we have a definition of copyright literacy that specifically mentions ethical and we have talked about that and reflected on it because it doesn't say promote the legal sharing or use of and it's not that we're not saying that people should not act lawfully and certainly if we're being asked in a professional capacity to provide advice to people around copyright sure my employers would say well absolutely they're employing me to help our colleagues remain lawful but I think it relates back to this idea of the contested space the fact that laws are created by human beings and that laws are constantly negotiated and that the law is a conversation and that new cases can come along new laws come along new disputes around the boundaries of the law come along and they can shift and they can change so the ethics really does have to be at the heart of it because surely that's what's driving that's why we have a law that regulates the creation and communication and dissemination of creative works because we want it to provide the best society and the best culture and environment for us all to live in but it's a balancing act isn't it and it's you know when you're thinking about ethics it's kind of well who you know who says it like that piece of copyright news that we were talking about from Finland where you sort of have to say well what's the most important thing here is it about access to education and science and culture is that the greater good or is it about rewarding and incentivising you know the kind of whole sort of labour theory around what copyright is meant to do and yeah I think we also one of the things that when we were at the create conference the evidence conference back in September and Glasgow they talked about looking at some of the the sort of the messaging that underpins copyright so that one about if you didn't have copyright people wouldn't be incentivised to create and actually a lot of the evidence suggests that's not true at all people you know there's an innate sort of thing in many people that they want to create and we know also and you could then say oh yeah well people should be able to make a living but again another create study shows yes but a lot of people can't make a living out of the majority of people do their creativity even if they do it all no so while there is a lot of money that's made a lot of that money doesn't actually go back to the the author or the artist and things like that so yeah I mean ethics of course is really important but it's who's ethics isn't it and what are we saying ultimately is the most important thing and do we prioritise the sort of public interest which is why the critical element that we're bringing out here is a key one because that's about looking at the power structures involved so if you're having a discussion about ethics if there is a particular group of voice which has more power than others then their view of what is ethical can then and has as we've seen dominate that debate so we think it's it is at the centre of I think what we're talking about here really yeah absolutely that was my next topic actually the critical aspect because in your chapter you talk a lot about being critical even critical pedagogies for instance yeah and this seems to be at the centre of the different multiple literacies you mentioned and actually you say something that's interesting you mentioned critical rather than functional role within the digital literacy context and criticality is really at the centre I was just thinking if you could go back to your case studies one from University of Kent and City University and if you could be critical of your own role within the case studies you shared with us in the chapter so something that went really well and surprised you and other things that you find really challenging in terms of implementing copyright education yeah I mean that's a that's a great thing to think about so if I think about the process of developing the strategy with colleagues I mean it was quite a challenging thing to do but I think it was it was valuable to actually put myself under that critical to be subject to that critical thinking because for the time about what we believe copyright is, what our literacy is and how it works in practice but then when I was running the idea past colleagues and getting thoughts about for example risk management, the idea that copyright is all about risk and that therefore it's necessary to take risks sometimes in order to avoid undermining your educational or research mission and a colleague pointed out well risk is very different for a tenured middle aged white professor than it is for a student or an early career researcher from a non-traditional background who certainly does not come to academia with a feeling that the system has their back and so that was an interesting one where I think I felt at the time sort of a bit on a mission to say right we should be bold and we should not let copyright stop us doing the things that we want to and and then it became very clear that the reason why it was important to do this work and why it was a valuable thing to do is not because it wasn't I wasn't writing in like the saviour on the horse to say hey copyright literacy has come to save the day it's like we need it because there are fundamental inequalities it's not the biggest one but there are elements of this that are right through all of those hierarchical structures that we have to come across so I think for me that's probably the experience that the most speaks to that critical element yeah so my case study is about creating the module digital literacies and open practice that I teach at city and I suppose bringing the kind of it's really interesting I think teaching that module it is really difficult so it's masters students many of whom are obviously Louis you teach on the programme so you know the sort of audience that we're teaching they're from a variety of backgrounds from different disciplines but they are mainly lecturers educators some of whom work in the NHS and they there has been a lot of interest in the module which is great I think even in the scope of a 15 credit module I sometimes do think that the depth that we go into is it's just not sufficient time for people to you know get their level of knowledge up to where it needs to be I find a lot of people even when they're approaching their second assignment are still you know they're very hazy about what the difference is between open education and what open access is and the other thing that they often do is they just simply equate the literacy side of it with those functional skills and I think it is a problem particularly when because of if you call it digital literacy people think of the technology and so that's what they focus on and they write a lot about the functional and they write a lot less about the critical and you know I have to really push them to try to do that and you know I'm always I do feel you know I've had several people so on the exciting side of things I've had several people who you know I'm not saying coming on the module changed their life but it certainly really did seem to change their way of thinking about a lot of things as several people have said to me that they just were so sorry I just have a glass of water they were just so sort of almost shocked about some of the things about how academic publishing worked that they just hadn't thought about before particularly like people who work in the NHS and they start to sort of and I realise actually that several of the students you know they've maybe had experience where they studied overseas and then they start to reflect on the fact that actually they didn't have access to lots of the literature and that causes lots of inequalities so you know I think there's it's really difficult to teach I could really do with more time with them but I do think it's having a big impact. Most teachers would say the same thing wouldn't they? I think this is really interesting because you have not only the theory but also the experience in leading and working with colleagues and thinking about a specific group you mentioned not in this part of the conversation but previously you reflect on the role of that libraries and librarians play in addressing copyright issues and I'm just wondering in your vision what might be the role played by librarians in developing those critical approaches to copyright if you can give some examples from what you know because I know you work quite a lot with librarians. Yeah absolutely. I'm thinking back to an event that the information literacy group organised it was back in 2019 I think we got together in Liverpool. Oh yeah It was looking at the sort of movement of open access open access is clearly a big thing in librarianship and information literacy been established for many decades now as something which is key to what particularly academic librarians do with students in higher education context and it was really interesting to see some examples of how that was actually being done so when teaching how students would go how would they do research, where would they find material and actually drawing showing them and it's similar to what you do really in your module on digital literacy and open practice but Matt and Chester for example were working with undergraduate students and pointing out differences between open and openly accessible material and material behind a paywall and actually using that whole openness debate as to research into and to try and find some literature so there's a key example there of how it comes together Edinburgh also do a lot with the OERs and getting students involved in creating OERs, remixing reusing Charlie Farley who does a lot of work in that area so yeah I think there are things definitely and there are many other examples I think from other institutions as well I mean we try to do it, I don't know whether are we librarians anymore, I think we are really aren't we kind of at heart but I think for those who for people in a kind of academic librarian position whose responsibility is to do information literacy teaching, we see it all the time it's a question that's there, it's at the heart of librarianship and there's a lot of work being done to use approaches from critical pedagogy and I think one thing we got actually through the peer review process as well some pointing towards what's happened in the US and in fact American institutions have been taking a slightly more sort of confident and proactive approach to teaching copyright and those elements of it for some time so it's more of a tradition that's been established where American universities have invested in copyright people, copyright officers some of whom are more like to be trained lawyers and here's Pickle and she's just come to read the chapter and the development of scholarly communications offices where they have brought those things together an awful lot so there's and let Kyle Courtney a guest of this webinar multiple times and his copyright first responders program is a key example of how he's been training up librarians to understand about copyright understand the critical elements and incorporated in what Americans would call information literacy instruction. Thank you so much, my last question before we open the floor really a quick one what will be from your point of view the main or what are the main challenges in regards to copyright education for the next couple of years can you identify a couple of key aspects that we should look at? I'll go with I think it's always been there is that it's underlying complexity and the principles behind copyright law are not that complex and most people understand them even if they think they don't know about copyright people mostly know what it's about but if we think of an example of what's happening in universities at the moment open access and the rights retention strategies and policies that institutions are putting in place now that involves discussions with academics about their rights and they're the way that they contract with academic publishers and it's there are different perspectives on this again the contested space academic publishers have a very different view to it the institutions putting it in place research funders and that is a complex area to work through because there's always ways that you can criticize a new thing coming that involves copyright law because it's far too complex and look at all of these different unintended consequences that might come from this particular and explaining that and talking it through with people and not losing sight of the key issues and getting lost in the detail and the hypotheticals I think that's a key challenge Yeah I suppose it's for me it's probably just you know there's going to be there's so many other things that are really important to teach about so it's where it fits with all the other stuff that people are worrying about in their life and particularly you know because there's a lot of focus on misinformation there's currently a huge concern in higher education about artificial intelligence and some of the tools that are out there and what that means about assessments I think probably the biggest challenge will just be you know get in some airtime to be able to get because I think people say yeah yeah yeah you know but there's lots of other bigger things that we need to worry about and you know as ever it's I think you know it is it is when you're the copyright specialist of course it's the most important thing but it's sort of understanding you know that people have so many other priorities and so many other concerns and being able to see things from those perspectives really would sort of help people I think you know when you're trying to teach copyright sort of say well how can I kind of you know show that this relates to yeah it's not being a bigger picture exactly it's to collaborate with others not be so precious about your your part of it you kind of yeah it's about combining all those different messages together as something that's coherent that's a challenge yeah yeah I think that's really a great takeaway for all of us and I guess we have a few minutes for questions if you have questions you can either use the chat box or open your mic I've been doing all the questions now it's on you and let me highlight that we are almost 70 people in this session which is very good, glad to have everyone talk, can I just check has everybody read it? it's open access it's and that was a key thing as well just to say the fact that it's open access we wouldn't have put the time and effort into something I think at this stage that wasn't available on that basis so we made that clear yeah we did I guess if colleagues haven't had the chance to have a look at the chapter I think after this conversation they will be more motivated to go through all the 34 pages long chapter but very dense and it's not dense at all no it's in a botanical I'm aware I think the other thing for me is I don't think it's the final word on the matter I did kind of think this is going to be the thing that we get to say about copyright literacy and it's like actually no it isn't it's shifting in a different context and so it's a thing that yeah just to sort of flag up I mean as well I mean it is a CC by article so I think if people want to take it and adapt it and do stuff with it then they can do that as well we'd obviously love to collaborate with anyone but I think that's the beauty of it that we put it out there and let's see where it goes sorry to interrupt we have a question from Susan Mayer was it difficult condensing your thoughts into the chapter yes I think the answer is yes it was I think one of the key things that in that redrafting process that hadn't come out I think you did the first draft it was the put everything in but the kitchen sink well I think it was a bit light on which you added in there is more about the illiteracies side of things because I wanted to see not less about copyright but more about the different types of illiteracies and what that was and what it meant to define something as literacy as a communicative practice all of this kind of stuff so but yes the answer is yes it was I do remember also we went round and round the houses with there was cat fur going everywhere which is contributing to be coughing she likes it we went round and round the houses with this argument about whether copyright was illiteracy yes copyright is not illiteracy copyright and that's what we changed it because you were saying copyright is a body of law copyright literacy may or may not be a thing depending on your point of view but information literacy is a thing media literacy is a thing digital literacy is a thing and copyright is a part of it and I think that's kind of where we got to at the end so we use copyright literacy as a way of thinking about copyright from a information and digital literacy perspective yes and it was interesting I think the other thing I really enjoyed doing was actually going and looking at those frameworks and kind of saying yeah well it does fit in here but it is so it's kind of seeing the bigger picture thank you so much I think that's again a very good summary and we have now messages people saying goodbye and we've had enough so I just want to say also thank you so much to both of you chain increase you are such a fun and prolific tool and taking the time to reflect on the topics of the chapter with all of us and thanks everyone for attending and thank you both of you yeah thank you thanks so much Ness, really appreciate you taking the time I know you've got to go off and teach as well so you can hand back to us if you want and yes there will be a recording of this you've got a cat on your laptop I know the cat is causing chaos down here this morning but thank you Lewis for your great questions as well and yeah we will be making the recording available and hopefully follow up on this further I think we had some ideas for maybe in the chapters I say because of the Creative Commons license on it so thank you right we're going to return to just the final part of our presentation today just to let you know here that we do have future webinars coming up so the next the next one is on 10th of February with Amargarita Vindesh who is based in Zurich who is a researcher looking at copyright and artificial intelligence hot topic there's been a lot of discussion around chat GPT and we'll find out what she has to say about the debates and the discussions in the intellectual property world around artificial intelligence then the following session is going to be a closed one in March yes third of March yes we're looking at presenting some of the data that we've been analysing from the CLA license and asking about the new CLA license which starts from August of next year making note of that date if you'd like to come along and say that will be a closed webinar and we've also got a session that we penciled in on the 14th of April which we would like to see if anyone would like to speak at about becoming a copyright specialist so we usually look for three people who might be willing to talk about their journey to becoming and it's always a brilliant session everyone we've done so far to get to know each other a bit more and everyone's got a slightly different take on it and a different route into getting interested or getting press ganged into the copyright world so if you'd like to share your thoughts, your story with us please let us know yes and then the May session that we've just looked in with Matt from IFLA who's their policy advisor and specialist around copyright at IFLA that is going to be a great session so Matt is going to join us for a whole session devoted to copyright news and he does put together these fantastic sort of every couple of weeks emails that go to the IFLA copyright and legal matters special interest group absolutely fantastic insights and we often use Matt's copyright news to look for some stories so if around May time you're looking for a briefing and an update on everything that's going on in the world of copyright and libraries and you want to get access to a free webinar and some insights with somebody who's been collating those then please do tune in in May because that's what we've got coming up with Matt Simon's just asked a question about Fair Dealing Week so that's a really good question and Fair Dealing Week is starting on the 20th of February so you are right that it is coming up we haven't yet got the confirmed times and dates I think of sessions but we will put those out in an email to people who are on the old call and they get the newsletter because I think there will be a Skirl session that week they haven't announced it yet but they've been working on a program and it looks like yet again another fantastic program that's going on so that's the Scottish libraries copyright group so that's going to be a really really good one and we will of course keep everybody updated we may be running an event the reason we haven't advertised anything yet is we're still in discussion with the Institute of Advanced Legal Studies so watch this space but we would be looking if we could to put an event on at the early part of that week but if anybody else is interested in putting on an event and bless you it's that cat here isn't it she's gone now I'm allergic to my own cat we'll be sharing the details of that and how you can let the main organizing group know that's based in the US but that you're putting on an event so yeah thanks for the reminder Simon really good I'm going to stop the recording now